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RNC up to the job of hard limiting ?

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Anonymous
December 30, 2004 9:07:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've made the transition to laptop recording from DAT reasonably
successfully, but there are still occasions when I would like to use my RNC
as an end-of-the-chain hard limiter for the final 0.1dB of input signal
after my Mackie VLZ Pro and before my stereo Echo Indigo IO soundcard. I
generally try and keep levels conservative (classical or chamber groups, and
solo players of acoustic instruments, or singers) ......and if I'm recording
at 24/96 I can keep levels quite low and safe. But for those 16/44.1 jobs
I'd like to have a 'keeper at the gate'....and also for those times when I
still use my Teac DA P20 DAT !

Can anyone recommend some rule of thumb calibration methods, initial
settings and whether to use Super Nice or Normal mode for this
quite-specific purpose. I don't want any compression
effects/artifacts....just a final safety limiter on the incoming mix.
Thanks for your advice,
Ray

More about : rnc job hard limiting

Anonymous
December 30, 2004 9:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If the transient is sharp enough and fast enough (snare, claves, finger
cymbals, pick attack, sometimes even lip smacks), the RNC won't stop
it entirely. It's one *terrific*, Really Nice Compressor, but it's just not a
peak limiter.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com




"Ray Thomas" <rthomas@chariot.net.au> wrote in message news:41d3b001$1_2@news.chariot.net.au...
> I've made the transition to laptop recording from DAT reasonably
> successfully, but there are still occasions when I would like to use my RNC
> as an end-of-the-chain hard limiter for the final 0.1dB of input signal
> after my Mackie VLZ Pro and before my stereo Echo Indigo IO soundcard. I
> generally try and keep levels conservative (classical or chamber groups, and
> solo players of acoustic instruments, or singers) ......and if I'm recording
> at 24/96 I can keep levels quite low and safe. But for those 16/44.1 jobs
> I'd like to have a 'keeper at the gate'....and also for those times when I
> still use my Teac DA P20 DAT !
>
> Can anyone recommend some rule of thumb calibration methods, initial
> settings and whether to use Super Nice or Normal mode for this
> quite-specific purpose. I don't want any compression
> effects/artifacts....just a final safety limiter on the incoming mix.
> Thanks for your advice,
> Ray
>
>
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 9:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>Can anyone recommend some rule of thumb calibration methods, initial
>settings and whether to use Super Nice or Normal mode for this
>quite-specific purpose. I don't want any compression
>effects/artifacts....just a final safety limiter on the incoming mix.
>Thanks for your advice,
>Ray
>

First, the RNC is not a brick wall limiter and doesn't function extremely well
in that capacity. However, it does work well as a final buss compressor.

I've had some good results with:

Mode: Normal
Attack: 3-5
Release: 4-6
Ratio: 10:1 up to max
Set the threshold so the gain reduction is no more than 2-3 on the LEDS.
Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.
Rule of thumb: If you can hear it, it's too much.

Good luck

--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-
Related resources
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 9:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Others may disagree, but I have found the Aphex Dominator II to work
well in this role. Prices on these have fallen recently on eBay to the
$3-400 range.
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 9:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <41d3b001$1_2@news.chariot.net.au> rthomas@chariot.net.au writes:

> I've made the transition to laptop recording from DAT reasonably
> successfully, but there are still occasions when I would like to use my RNC
> as an end-of-the-chain hard limiter for the final 0.1dB of input signal
> after my Mackie VLZ Pro and before my stereo Echo Indigo IO soundcard.

That's not a particularly good application for the RNC. It's not that
hard and it's not that fast. If you're trying to get to 0.1 dB of full
scale, it's best to use a digital tool. Leave yourself a couple of dB
of headroom going into the Indigo card and wipe out the dynamic range
once you get into the computer. Unless you're working at 8-bit
resolution, peak levels a few dB below full scale won't hurt a bit.

> I don't want any compression
> effects/artifacts....just a final safety limiter on the incoming mix.

The best way to do this is to manually adjust the output level of the
mixer that's feeding the sound card. Really.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 9:07:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in news:20041230112631.21640.00002443@mb-
m12.aol.com:

> Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.

What???
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 10:59:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Forty Winks" <Yawn@bedtime.com> wrote in message ...

> ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in message ...
> >
> > Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.

> What???

Slip of the mind perhaps.... The gain reduction meter always shows
reduction as indicated by the numeric, incremental markers above
the LEDs. TTBOMK, this printed value doesn't change based on
the settings.

DM
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 11:00:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ray Thomas wrote:

> I've made the transition to laptop recording from DAT reasonably
> successfully, but there are still occasions when I would like to use my RNC
> as an end-of-the-chain hard limiter for the final 0.1dB of input signal
> after my Mackie VLZ Pro and before my stereo Echo Indigo IO soundcard. I
> generally try and keep levels conservative (classical or chamber groups, and
> solo players of acoustic instruments, or singers) ......and if I'm recording
> at 24/96 I can keep levels quite low and safe. But for those 16/44.1 jobs
> I'd like to have a 'keeper at the gate'....and also for those times when I
> still use my Teac DA P20 DAT !

I think you're pushing too close to disaster to rely on the RNC to save
you. It could help if you leave a little more headroom, but set to its
fastest attack it can cause artifacts in some signals (due to physics,
not any defect of the RNC). A Waves L2 Ultramaximizer, while probbly not
within your budget, can do what you want and also provide damned good
ADC and decent DAC, too.

--
ha
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 11:00:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Ray Thomas wrote:

>> and if I'm recording at 24/96 I can keep levels quite low and safe.
>> But for those 16/44.1 jobs I'd like to have a 'keeper at the
>> gate'....and also for those times when I still use my Teac DA P20
>> DAT !


Even at 16/44.1 is there really any advantage to keeping the final level
right near clipping? There isn't any tape hiss issue and you aren't
gaining any dynamic range by doing this so why not just trim the whole
level slightly so peaks won't be a problem?
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 12:11:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

x-no-archive: yes
Ray Thomas wrote:

> I've made the transition to laptop recording from DAT reasonably
> successfully, but there are still occasions when I would like to use my RNC
> as an end-of-the-chain hard limiter for the final 0.1dB of input signal
> after my Mackie VLZ Pro and before my stereo Echo Indigo IO soundcard.

The RNC is not a limiter.

Just leave enough headroom, then use one of many various
software limiters on playback/mixdown. The software
limiters can "cheat" and use lookahead to manage that last
0.1 dB. Blockfish, a VST plugin does this very well.

> I
> generally try and keep levels conservative (classical or chamber groups, and
> solo players of acoustic instruments, or singers) ......and if I'm recording
> at 24/96 I can keep levels quite low and safe. But for those 16/44.1 jobs
> I'd like to have a 'keeper at the gate'....and also for those times when I
> still use my Teac DA P20 DAT !
>

16/44.1 should not be a barrier to keeping levels under
transients.

> Can anyone recommend some rule of thumb calibration methods, initial
> settings and whether to use Super Nice or Normal mode for this
> quite-specific purpose. I don't want any compression
> effects/artifacts....just a final safety limiter on the incoming mix.
> Thanks for your advice,
> Ray
>
>



--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 2:06:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Joe Sensor" <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote in message news:33j578F3ua0ctU1@individual.net...
>
>
> > Ray Thomas wrote:
>
> >> and if I'm recording at 24/96 I can keep levels quite low and safe.
> >> But for those 16/44.1 jobs I'd like to have a 'keeper at the
> >> gate'....and also for those times when I still use my Teac DA P20
> >> DAT !
>
>
> Even at 16/44.1 is there really any advantage to keeping the final level
> right near clipping? There isn't any tape hiss issue and you aren't
> gaining any dynamic range by doing this so why not just trim the whole
> level slightly so peaks won't be a problem?

I've yet to venture from the 16/44.1 world, and there really is no *serious*
issue with conservative recording levels.

As another mentioned, I'd pick up a used Aphex Dominator II on e-Bay
for the purpose indicated by the OP. I usually just touch the tops of
transients on the way to the medium - and once finally in a computer,
do a wee bit more software peak limiting if necessary... better yet, let
the mastering house handle the final pass.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 2:51:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in news:20041230112631.21640.00002443@mb-
>m12.aol.com:
>
>> Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.
>
>What???
>

Restated.

If the ratio of gain reduction is set at 10:1, that means for every 10db of
gain going into the RNC there will only be 1 db of gain coming out. Translated
loosely, that equates to 10db of gain reduction per each led (if they equal
one) lit.
You're not gonna be able to hit it very hard or artifacts are gonna trash your
tracks. With a 10:1 or 20:1 ratio, you only want it to lite minimally anyway.

Software limiters might work better anyway.

--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 2:51:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Wayne wrote:

> Software limiters might work better anyway.


Not before it gets to the A/D.
December 31, 2004 12:58:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Forty Winks wrote:

> ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in news:20041230112631.21640.00002443@mb-
> m12.aol.com:
>
>
>>Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.
>
>
> What???


What is one led at inf:1 ?
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 12:58:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bryson wrote:

> Forty Winks wrote:
>
>> ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in news:20041230112631.21640.00002443@mb-
>> m12.aol.com:
>>
>>
>>> Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.
>>
>>
>>
>> What???
>
>
>
> What is one led at inf:1 ?

But it really isn't infinity. Otherwise it really would be a limiter.
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 12:58:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Sensor wrote:

> Bryson wrote:
>
>> Forty Winks wrote:
>>
>>> ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in
>>> news:20041230112631.21640.00002443@mb-
>>> m12.aol.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What???
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What is one led at inf:1 ?
>
>
> But it really isn't infinity. Otherwise it really would be a limiter.


Must have been a joke, the RNC only goes to 25:1.
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 12:59:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

S O'Neill <nopsam@nospam.net> wrote:
>Wayne wrote:
>
>> Software limiters might work better anyway.
>
>Not before it gets to the A/D.

I really don't understand the obsession with protection limiting these
days.

If you really want, you can buy a thing from Prism that has a pair of
back-to-back diodes in a barrel connector. I can't imagine that it will
sound good, but it'll provide limiting.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 4:07:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <wcudnYCe7P9JSUncRVn-1w@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:

> Wayne wrote:
> > Software limiters might work better anyway.

> Not before it gets to the A/D.

This is why you leave a little the A/D converter a little headroom. So
your software limiter will be able to work on a signal that isn't
clipped. That way, you can "unclip" it if you don't like what the
limiter is doing.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 4:07:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <wcudnYCe7P9JSUncRVn-1w@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:
>
>
>>Wayne wrote:
>>
>>>Software limiters might work better anyway.
>
>
>>Not before it gets to the A/D.
>
>
> This is why you leave a little the A/D converter a little headroom. So
> your software limiter will be able to work on a signal that isn't
> clipped. That way, you can "unclip" it if you don't like what the
> limiter is doing.

That's why I just record without a limiter if the level is guaranteed to
be low enough to be converted without overs anyway. Since that's pretty
much under my control, that's what usually happens.
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 4:13:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in
news:20041230185127.21753.00002110@mb-m12.aol.com:

>>ybstudios@aol.com (Wayne) wrote in
>>news:20041230112631.21640.00002443@mb- m12.aol.com:
>>
>>> Remember, one LED is 10 db at a 10:1 ratio.
>>
>>What???
>>
>
> Restated.
>
> If the ratio of gain reduction is set at 10:1, that means for every
> 10db of gain going into the RNC there will only be 1 db of gain coming
> out. Translated loosely, that equates to 10db of gain reduction per
> each led (if they equal one) lit.

What the hell are you on about?? The gain reduction LEDs show the ammount
of gain reduction in dBs, regardless of ratio.

> You're not gonna be able to hit it very hard or artifacts are gonna
> trash your tracks. With a 10:1 or 20:1 ratio, you only want it to
> lite minimally anyway.
>
> Software limiters might work better anyway.
>
> --Wayne
>
> -"sounded good to me"-
Anonymous
January 1, 2005 2:35:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sorry, Had a brain fart.

Wayne
!