Fate of Troika

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029

hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
products.
105 answers Last reply
More about fate troika
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
    news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
    >
    > hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
    > products.

    *holds envelope up to forehead*

    It won't.

    --
    Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> once tried to test me with:

    > http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
    >
    > hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out
    > buggy products.

    At least, if you do, don't put your name on it. :)


    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
    news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
    > http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
    >
    > hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
    > products.

    It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
    their developed games to be really lacking.

    Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
    quickly.

    ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
    (for all my friends and I anyway)

    Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
    realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled jigglies in
    the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end of the Leopold
    society and you lost all interest in having to replay it again.

    As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
    Fallout license and not Troika.

    Ceo-
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
    wrote:

    >"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
    >news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
    >> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
    >>
    >> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
    >> products.
    >
    >It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
    >their developed games to be really lacking.
    >
    >Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
    >quickly.

    I really liked it, but the combat was far too easy in turn based, and
    impossible in real time. And the last 15% of the game felt really
    rushed (and was there a missing subplot about gnomes kidnapping people
    and breeding them with trolls ?).

    >ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
    >(for all my friends and I anyway)
    >
    >Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
    >realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled jigglies in
    >the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end of the Leopold
    >society and you lost all interest in having to replay it again.

    Again, I liked it until I got the the game stopping bug. Or rather,
    the second game stopping bug - I got past the Loepold one with a
    developer code line to skip the level. The second was a door barred
    with a non-sliding wooded bar. I read that if you hit it from the
    exact angle, it opened, but after an hour or so of running and the
    door and bouncing off, I gave up.

    >As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
    >Fallout license and not Troika.
    >
    Yep.

    Troika has a lot of talent, but their stuff suffered from being a
    little rushed and flawed in some way.

    --

    Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
    They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
    And what's with all the carrots ?
    What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
    Bunnies ! Bunnies ! It must be BUNNIES !
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> once tried to test me
    with:

    > To me, Troika's problem was they had big ideas, but lacked the
    > business experience to negotiate a proper deal. For example, every
    > game they made, it was the same story about a patch: "if the publisher
    > pays us to make a patch, we'll make one"... I've never heard a game
    > developer say that before. Every game released in the last ten years
    > has needed a patch. How about telling Atari or whomever a patch has to
    > be a part of the funding deal?
    >
    > No, it appears Troika just took whatever sum was offered them and
    > promised they could deliver the game without really knowing how much $
    > or work it would really take. They had no QA, no real testing, and (it
    > would appear) a bare bones programming team. And after they released a
    > game, they appeared to be somewhat adversarial to the publisher,
    > blaming them for not funding a patch or whatnot. No publisher worked
    > with them twice, so that's gotta tell you something.

    You make a lot of sense. Here's a fun Interview I found on GameSpy (i've
    interjected my own comments):

    GameSpy: Troika has been around for several years, and had three good
    titles under its belt. Why do you think you weren't able to secure funding
    for your next project?

    Boyarsky: I'm not sure, you'd have to ask the publishers. If I had to
    guess, I'd say it's because triple A titles are costing more and more to
    make, and people are looking for titles that will appeal to a more
    mainstream audience than ours have traditionally. In plain English, our
    games just didn't sell enough units.

    KNIGHT37: If that's a problem, then self-publish. There IS a market for
    GOOD computer RPG games. If EA and Atari don't want to touch it, then find
    a smaller publisher or publish your own titles via the internet. If it is
    true that the market isn't massive enough for RPGs, then cater to the
    market that is there in a way that makes money, don't try to make it appeal
    to the masses who can't even understand the concept of the genre much less
    appreciate it. This advice is pretty much moot at this point for Troika but
    for someone else starting a RPG dev team it might not be.

    KNIGHT37: But I have to question if this is just Bullshit or not. Why is
    Lucas Arts bothering publishing KOTOR 1 and 2? Why is Bethesda making
    Oblivious er oBlivion? Why is Bioware working on Dragon Age and NWN2? Why
    are RPG titles on the consoles such popular items (esp. in Japan)?

    KNIGHT37: If you mean *YOUR* RPGs as opposed to RPGs in general, I do not
    think it's a lack of good ideas, I think it's a lack of quality control.


    GameSpy: Did you have any projects in the works? If so, what will happen to
    them now?

    Boyarsky: We had several projects in various stages of pre production,
    mostly just documents, though. We did have our own tech demo, as well as
    another pitch/demo using the HL2 engine, but that was about it. I don't
    suppose anything will happen with any of our proposals.

    KNIGHT37: AFTER your game is out is too late to be pitching a game to
    another publisher. Lining up games at least a year before the current game
    is done is the only way you can keep business rolling in. So either these
    ideas just weren't thought of as worthwhile, or the game companies you were
    pitching them to didn't like Troika for some reason.


    GameSpy: What happens to Bloodlines in terms of support? Were any patches
    or updates in the works?

    Boyarsky: I cannot comment on Bloodlines' support, you'd have to talk
    to Activision about that. We were not working on any patches or updates -
    we haven't had a team since mid December.

    KNIGHT37: Reading between the lines - No, it's dumped, there will be no
    patches. No one who knows anything about how the game works is going to be
    around to fix it. And besides that, Activision has never been very good
    about post-launch support, so why should they start now?


    GameSpy: What's next for you?

    Boyarsky: I have absolutely no idea. Any suggestions?

    KNIGHT37: In a different interview you said something about having plans to
    hire a business person to do the business end while you and the other
    founders of Troika acted as lead designers. If that's where your talents
    lie then I suggest hiring on to another gaming developer that needs RPG-
    designer talent.


    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 26 Feb 2005 07:18:59 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
    >> Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
    >> realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled
    >> jigglies in the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end
    >> of the Leopold society and you lost all interest in having to replay
    >> it again.

    Bloodlines really showed up that Troika don't know how to polish a game,
    i.e. remove all the bugs and tidy up loose ends. Consider that they had
    nearly an extra year to work on it as it was originally due to release
    after HL2's 1st missed date, although that may be down to not being able
    to budget for that extra development time as no-one expected Valve to
    stall so long.

    Releasing at the same time as HL2 probably hurt their sales, although
    I've not seen any estimated figures on that.
    >
    >I'm not so confident in Bethesda either. But I guess a "not sure loser" is
    >better than a "sure loser." Having said that, the one game of theirs I am
    >actually looking forward to is that Cthulhu game, because, hey, they can't
    >break the RPG systems if the game isn't an RPG. And Morrowind sure was
    >pretty.

    I thought that the Cthulhu game was going to be based upon the Call Of
    Cthulhu RPG, or at least Cthulhu d20 ?

    --
    Alfie
    <http://www.delphia.co.uk/>
    Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet> wrote:

    >"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
    >news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
    >> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
    >>
    >> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
    >> products.
    >
    >It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
    >their developed games to be really lacking.
    >
    >Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
    >quickly.
    >
    >ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
    >(for all my friends and I anyway)

    You didn't really need to go any higher than that anyway. If you did it would
    have been hopelessly easy, and it was pretty easy to begin with.

    >Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
    >realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled jigglies in
    >the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end of the Leopold
    >society and you lost all interest in having to replay it again.
    >
    >As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
    >Fallout license and not Troika.
    >
    >Ceo-
    >
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    > developer code line to skip the level. The second was a door barred
    > with a non-sliding wooded bar. I read that if you hit it from the
    > exact angle, it opened, but after an hour or so of running and the
    > door and bouncing off, I gave up.

    You had to USE the bar from a correct angle :)

    No shame there, I was stuck also for a while. Bad design. But
    I loved Vampire Bloodlines overall.

    -Moa Dragon
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> once tried to test me with:

    >>I'm not so confident in Bethesda either. But I guess a "not sure
    >>loser" is better than a "sure loser." Having said that, the one game
    >>of theirs I am actually looking forward to is that Cthulhu game,
    >>because, hey, they can't break the RPG systems if the game isn't an
    >>RPG. And Morrowind sure was pretty.
    >
    > I thought that the Cthulhu game was going to be based upon the Call Of
    > Cthulhu RPG, or at least Cthulhu d20 ?

    Everything I've seen and read about it indicates that it's an action game
    full blown. I don't think it has much in the way of RPG elements if any.
    It's based on the Call of Cthulhu RPG in the sense that it will use story
    elements and background information from that RPG. And the insanity. The
    more you are exposed to the "Mythos" the more insane your character gets
    and the less control over the character you have on the screen. I'm
    expecting some really funky insanity effects.

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <Xns9609136E5F191knight37m@130.133.1.4>, knight37m@email.com
    says...
    > "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> once tried to test me
    > with:
    >
    > Boyarsky: I'm not sure, you'd have to ask the publishers. If I had to
    > guess, I'd say it's because triple A titles are costing more and more to
    > make, and people are looking for titles that will appeal to a more
    > mainstream audience than ours have traditionally. In plain English, our
    > games just didn't sell enough units.
    >
    > KNIGHT37: If that's a problem, then self-publish. There IS a market for
    > GOOD computer RPG games. If EA and Atari don't want to touch it, then find
    > a smaller publisher or publish your own titles via the internet. If it is
    > true that the market isn't massive enough for RPGs, then cater to the
    > market that is there in a way that makes money, don't try to make it appeal
    > to the masses who can't even understand the concept of the genre much less
    > appreciate it. This advice is pretty much moot at this point for Troika but
    > for someone else starting a RPG dev team it might not be.

    The problem here is that their concept of an RPG may include high
    quality graphics etc. that will cost a certain large amount of money to
    create. If the market is not there, that outlay won't be recouped.

    Or are you saying that "real CRPG players don't care about graphics"?

    - Gerry Quinn
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns960926920E5CAknight37m@130.133.1.4...
    > "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> once tried to test me with:
    >
    > >>I'm not so confident in Bethesda either. But I guess a "not sure
    > >>loser" is better than a "sure loser." Having said that, the one game
    > >>of theirs I am actually looking forward to is that Cthulhu game,
    > >>because, hey, they can't break the RPG systems if the game isn't an
    > >>RPG. And Morrowind sure was pretty.
    > >
    > > I thought that the Cthulhu game was going to be based upon the Call Of
    > > Cthulhu RPG, or at least Cthulhu d20 ?
    >
    > Everything I've seen and read about it indicates that it's an action game
    > full blown. I don't think it has much in the way of RPG elements if any.
    > It's based on the Call of Cthulhu RPG in the sense that it will use story
    > elements and background information from that RPG. And the insanity. The
    > more you are exposed to the "Mythos" the more insane your character gets
    > and the less control over the character you have on the screen. I'm
    > expecting some really funky insanity effects.
    >

    It supposedly uses an RPG system without showing the player any of the
    underlying numbers. It sounds like the system will be a lot like the GTA
    San Andreas system, ie., the more you shoot at creatures, the better your
    character is at aiming.

    Hopefully the insanity system has some neat effects like Eternal Darkness
    had.
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns9609136E5F191knight37m@130.133.1.4...

    >
    > GameSpy: What's next for you?
    >
    > Boyarsky: I have absolutely no idea. Any suggestions?
    >
    > KNIGHT37: In a different interview you said something about having plans
    > to
    > hire a business person to do the business end while you and the other
    > founders of Troika acted as lead designers. If that's where your talents
    > lie then I suggest hiring on to another gaming developer that needs RPG-
    > designer talent.

    Yup - that's what they should do. Lots of talent at Troika. I'd like to see
    what they could do with enough money to *really* make the project.
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> once tried to test me with:

    > In article <Xns9609136E5F191knight37m@130.133.1.4>,
    > knight37m@email.com says...
    >> "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> once tried to test me
    >> with:
    >>
    >> Boyarsky: I'm not sure, you'd have to ask the publishers. If I
    >> had to
    >> guess, I'd say it's because triple A titles are costing more and more
    >> to make, and people are looking for titles that will appeal to a more
    >> mainstream audience than ours have traditionally. In plain English,
    >> our games just didn't sell enough units.
    >>
    >> KNIGHT37: If that's a problem, then self-publish. There IS a market
    >> for GOOD computer RPG games. If EA and Atari don't want to touch it,
    >> then find a smaller publisher or publish your own titles via the
    >> internet. If it is true that the market isn't massive enough for
    >> RPGs, then cater to the market that is there in a way that makes
    >> money, don't try to make it appeal to the masses who can't even
    >> understand the concept of the genre much less appreciate it. This
    >> advice is pretty much moot at this point for Troika but for someone
    >> else starting a RPG dev team it might not be.
    >
    > The problem here is that their concept of an RPG may include high
    > quality graphics etc. that will cost a certain large amount of money
    > to create. If the market is not there, that outlay won't be recouped.
    >
    > Or are you saying that "real CRPG players don't care about graphics"?

    I beleive that quality graphics can be done and that there are enough PC
    RPG players to fund the creation of those graphics. What has to happen is
    that they have to make sure all the RPG players are on-board, which means
    making the gameplay addictive and having good QA.

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
    wrote:

    >> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
    >> products.

    Bugs have nothing to do with it. The lesson is don't put out bad
    games. Vampire was the worst game I've seen in years - and that's
    saying a lot, because we haven't had anything BUT bad games in years.

    >It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
    >their developed games to be really lacking.
    >
    >Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
    >quickly.

    I'm not sure what it was with Arcanum that came up short for me, but
    for some reason I just lost interest in it about halfway through. I
    can't point to any one thing it was lacking but it just wasn't
    compelling enough to keep me going.

    >ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
    >(for all my friends and I anyway)

    Doomed due to a level cap? So, Baldur's Gate was also doomed? That's
    an... odd... assertion.

    ToEE was a fantastic game engine, but the gameplay was pretty dull,
    and the game was too short. It seemed more like a big demo than a
    game, to me. Maybe somebody else will take that game engine and do
    something great with it. Fallout 3 with that game engine would be
    pretty fantastic.

    >Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
    >realised it was just a hacknslash game

    Perhaps some of us take longer to notice the obvious than others :p

    It's not even a hacknslash game, that is a term that applies to RPGs,
    and Vampire is not an RPG. It's an action game. If putting stats on
    characters made a game an RPG then Mechwarrior is also an RPG, right?

    No, it's the ability to interact with your environment and influnce
    events in a meaningful way, through independent action and personal
    choices, that make a game an RPG. Character development is meaningless
    when you go through the game on rails.

    > or it crashed at the end of the Leopold society and you lost all interest
    >in having to replay it again.

    Speak for yourself, I gave up on the game long before that.

    >As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
    >Fallout license and not Troika.

    Oh, great. As far as I know, Bethesda has never put out a decent game
    - by which I mean a game that I want to play. Of past and present game
    companies, I'd rate Bethesda dead last for that reason alone. The
    Fallout license may as well be dead, as far as I'm concerned, because
    there's no way in hell anybody at Bethesda has the right stuff to make
    a Fallout game I'd buy. Bethesda games are a whole lotta nothing. I
    couldn't make a more dull and unimaginative game than Morrowind if I
    tried. I shudder to think there are people out there who actually were
    entertained by that endlessly repetitive and uninspired garbage.
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

    > Online-delivery is the way for a small developer to make money today. I bet
    > Stardock is making a pretty good amount on GalCiv and their other stuff
    > they are doing at their gaming network site. Same for Jeff Vogel, I am sure
    > he's not making millions or anything like that but I bet he makes a decent
    > amount and he gets to do it by doing something he loves.

    The merits of Galciv and the Avernum series withstanding, neither
    of those games require a very large download. In fact, if KOTOR2
    was being sold on-line only, a lot of people would not have
    downloaded 4 CDs worth of data.

    Production value (music, art, voice acting, etc.) are so high
    right now that the only way to deliver it properly is to put it
    in a box and on a shelf. Publishers are good at this. In fact,
    it's the core competency of the publisher to do this.

    Troika would have you think publishers are there to do Q&A.
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns9609D13D31545knight37m@130.133.1.4...
    > "James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> once tried to test me with:
    >
    > > Well, if they did their accounting like my last employer did then they
    > > counted each hour of programmer time as an "expense". Like a lawyer
    > > billing his client by the hour, each programmer would have "billed"
    > > his time against the project. The more time they spend working on the
    > > project, the more the project "costs" the company. And the company
    > > only gets a fixed amount from the publisher, so if too many hours are
    > > spent working on the product it shows up as a "loss" on the company's
    > > books.
    > >
    >
    > Well what the hell else were they doing then?

    I'm not explaining it very well. Its the accounting equivalent of measuring
    something in units smaller than a Plank length. Think of it as the
    bean-counters counting every bean by the atom. And then trying to scrimp on
    the atoms in order to save beans. The accounting reaches the point where it
    becomes so divorced from reality that it blocks attempts at common sense
    acts (like fixing sales stopping bugs). Under that kind of thinking
    employees getting paid to sit around doing nothing is better than having
    them add to the number of hours a project takes.

    --
    Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> once tried to test me with:

    > On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
    >
    >> Online-delivery is the way for a small developer to make money today.
    >> I bet Stardock is making a pretty good amount on GalCiv and their
    >> other stuff they are doing at their gaming network site. Same for
    >> Jeff Vogel, I am sure he's not making millions or anything like that
    >> but I bet he makes a decent amount and he gets to do it by doing
    >> something he loves.
    >
    > The merits of Galciv and the Avernum series withstanding, neither
    > of those games require a very large download. In fact, if KOTOR2
    > was being sold on-line only, a lot of people would not have
    > downloaded 4 CDs worth of data.

    A lot of people ARE downloading KOTOR2 actually. They just aren't giving
    any money for it.

    But you are correct, a 4-CD game at this point in time isn't going to sell
    as many copies online as it can through retail.

    > Production value (music, art, voice acting, etc.) are so high
    > right now that the only way to deliver it properly is to put it
    > in a box and on a shelf. Publishers are good at this. In fact,
    > it's the core competency of the publisher to do this.

    Production values might have to be sacrified for a small-time developer
    catering to a niche market.

    > Troika would have you think publishers are there to do Q&A.

    Heh. No arguments there.

    I do not honestly think the PC Industry is ready for download-only for
    every game made. I think it's a good option for certain niche genres.

    But there's no reason you couldn't do an RPG with decent graphics in under
    500mb. You'd have to toss full-voice acting and you might have to drop some
    texture resolution.

    The thing is, though, you can do some stuff online that you can't do very
    well through retail. Like Episode gaming, where the gamer downloads a
    portion of the game, plays that, then the next, etc. Problem is so far it
    seems a lot of developers have been rather greedy about what they think a
    small "episode" is worth. Bioware is doing it right with the 'bite size'
    downloadable content for a price for the NWN engine. That'd be another way
    to do it, a small developer could put out a good engine that they then
    release content to continuously. And of course updates for the engine to
    keep it reasonably modern. And every 3 or 4 years a major revision that
    requires another large download. Hmm that's sounding a lot like EQ...

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> once tried to test me with:

    > "Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
    > news:Xns9609D13D31545knight37m@130.133.1.4...
    >> "James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> once tried to test me with:
    >>
    >> > Well, if they did their accounting like my last employer did then
    >> > they counted each hour of programmer time as an "expense". Like a
    >> > lawyer billing his client by the hour, each programmer would have
    >> > "billed" his time against the project. The more time they spend
    >> > working on the project, the more the project "costs" the company.
    >> > And the company only gets a fixed amount from the publisher, so if
    >> > too many hours are spent working on the product it shows up as a
    >> > "loss" on the company's books.
    >> >
    >>
    >> Well what the hell else were they doing then?
    >
    > I'm not explaining it very well. Its the accounting equivalent of
    > measuring something in units smaller than a Plank length. Think of it
    > as the bean-counters counting every bean by the atom. And then trying
    > to scrimp on the atoms in order to save beans. The accounting reaches
    > the point where it becomes so divorced from reality that it blocks
    > attempts at common sense acts (like fixing sales stopping bugs).
    > Under that kind of thinking employees getting paid to sit around doing
    > nothing is better than having them add to the number of hours a
    > project takes.

    BOGGLE. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen in a company as small as
    Troika.


    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
    > shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> once tried to test me with:
    >
    >> On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Online-delivery is the way for a small developer to make money today.
    >>> I bet Stardock is making a pretty good amount on GalCiv and their
    >>> other stuff they are doing at their gaming network site. Same for
    >>> Jeff Vogel, I am sure he's not making millions or anything like that
    >>> but I bet he makes a decent amount and he gets to do it by doing
    >>> something he loves.
    >>
    >> The merits of Galciv and the Avernum series withstanding, neither
    >> of those games require a very large download. In fact, if KOTOR2
    >> was being sold on-line only, a lot of people would not have
    >> downloaded 4 CDs worth of data.
    >
    > A lot of people ARE downloading KOTOR2 actually. They just aren't giving
    > any money for it.

    I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
    realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
    the first place. A very small fraction of people will pirate to
    save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
    after all the hassles they go through.
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <Xns9609783FE421Aknight37m@130.133.1.4>, knight37m@email.com
    says...
    > Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> once tried to test me with:

    > > The problem here is that their concept of an RPG may include high
    > > quality graphics etc. that will cost a certain large amount of money
    > > to create. If the market is not there, that outlay won't be recouped.
    > >
    > > Or are you saying that "real CRPG players don't care about graphics"?
    >
    > I beleive that quality graphics can be done and that there are enough PC
    > RPG players to fund the creation of those graphics. What has to happen is
    > that they have to make sure all the RPG players are on-board, which means
    > making the gameplay addictive and having good QA.

    But you were talking about self-publishing in the absence of funding
    from a big publisher. Are all those 'on-board' RPG players going to pay
    in advance of development?

    - Gerry Quinn
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <8dm121t1o4361ll6t5qaaacrrp1asdhftb@4ax.com>, spectre911
    @hotmail.com says...
    > On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
    > wrote:

    > >As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
    > >Fallout license and not Troika.
    >
    > Oh, great. As far as I know, Bethesda has never put out a decent game
    > - by which I mean a game that I want to play. Of past and present game
    > companies, I'd rate Bethesda dead last for that reason alone. The
    > Fallout license may as well be dead, as far as I'm concerned, because
    > there's no way in hell anybody at Bethesda has the right stuff to make
    > a Fallout game I'd buy. Bethesda games are a whole lotta nothing. I
    > couldn't make a more dull and unimaginative game than Morrowind if I
    > tried. I shudder to think there are people out there who actually were
    > entertained by that endlessly repetitive and uninspired garbage.

    Each to their own. Loads of people *love* Morrowind.

    - Gerry Quinn
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Knight37 wrote:
    >> Under that kind of thinking employees getting paid to sit around
    >> doing nothing is better than having them add to the number of hours a
    >> project takes.
    >
    > BOGGLE. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen in a company as
    > small as Troika.

    Heh, you wouldn't think so, but it all depends on the mentality and
    background of the BIC--beancounters in charge. I've seen some pretty
    amazing things, that until I got out of the construction industry weren't
    even aware existed.

    --
    chainbreaker
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly "James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> Spake Unto All:

    >Under that kind of thinking
    >employees getting paid to sit around doing nothing is better than having
    >them add to the number of hours a project takes.

    Sounds like normal accounting to me.
    There's been accounting sillinesses like that on every company I've
    ever worked.
    One company I worked on, with 1700 employees, even bankrupted because
    management didn't understand that internal budgeting results do not
    reflect reality.

    --
    "Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
    -- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
    with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Mean_Chlorine wrote:
    > Sounds like normal accounting to me.
    > There's been accounting sillinesses like that on every company I've
    > ever worked.
    > One company I worked on, with 1700 employees, even bankrupted because
    > management didn't understand that internal budgeting results do not
    > reflect reality.

    Amazing, ain't it? :-)

    As I said above, I wasn't even aware such a mentality existed until I got
    out of construction.

    --
    chainbreaker
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
    news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
    > http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
    >
    > hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
    > products.

    Looking Glass was demolished. Had nothing to do with bugs. Bugs don't end
    development groups -- poor sales do.

    Besides, developers are like rock bands. They break up, and the talent goes
    off and forms new bands.

    Jonah Falcon
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 2005-02-27, Jonah Falcon <jonahnynla@mindspring.com> wrote:
    >
    > "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
    > news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
    >> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
    >>
    >> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
    >> products.
    >
    > Looking Glass was demolished. Had nothing to do with bugs. Bugs don't end
    > development groups -- poor sales do.
    >
    > Besides, developers are like rock bands. They break up, and the talent goes
    > off and forms new bands.

    Like Troika? Good art talent that was splintered from the good
    programmers and project managers. Lotta good it did us customers.
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

    >I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
    >realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
    >the first place.

    Not all of them, anyway.

    > A very small fraction of people will pirate to
    >save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
    >after all the hassles they go through.

    What hassles?


    --
    "Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
    -- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
    with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:onq3219qbevikbg2caetu1ahcbkfgnlo83@4ax.com...
    > Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:
    >
    >>I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
    >>realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
    >>the first place.
    >
    > Not all of them, anyway.
    >
    >> A very small fraction of people will pirate to
    >>save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
    >>after all the hassles they go through.
    >
    > What hassles?

    It's like anything else - if you're "in the know", it's easy. But don't
    presume that everyone knows the proper networks / groups / programs to use.
    Or the cracks available, cd emulators, etc etc. It *is* a hassle unless you
    spend some time learning it. Many people try to pirate, then give up because
    they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 2005-02-27, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    > Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

    >> A very small fraction of people will pirate to
    >>save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
    >>after all the hassles they go through.
    >
    > What hassles?

    Off the top of my head? Trojans and spyware. Then there's the
    no-cd crack thing which means you're not getting the honest to
    goodness real executable.

    Simply: I trust the publisher and not the warez kiddie.
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    > Many people try to pirate, then give up because
    >they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.

    I would guess that, outside of l33t circles, the majority of all
    pirating is friend-to-friend, cd-to-cd. "Burn me a copy" kind of
    stuff. That's easy, not hard at all.

    C//
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 27 Feb 2005 03:47:59 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

    >A. A lot of die hard geeks that still want Ultima 7 style games.
    >B. An ASSLoAD of Myst, Sims, and Deer Hunter fans who aren't even sure what
    >they want but as long as it's pretty or at least involves killing
    >defenseless forest animals they'll buy it.
    >C. A bunch of ESPN junkies who only care about the latest Madden NFL.
    >D. Adrenaline junkies who thrive on twitch games like Doom/Quake.
    >E. The Grognard, who just wants to re-enact the Battle of Waterloo for the
    >umpteenth time but with better graphics and more realistic options.
    >F. Blizzard Fanboi.
    >

    So, Knight, I guess you're in F? ;)


    Hong "die hard geek who still wants Ultima 4 style games" Ooi
    --
    Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
    hong@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
    http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
    Sydney, Australia |
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Hong Ooi <hong@zipworld.com.au> once tried to test me with:

    > On 27 Feb 2005 03:47:59 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
    >
    >>A. A lot of die hard geeks that still want Ultima 7 style games.
    >>B. An ASSLoAD of Myst, Sims, and Deer Hunter fans who aren't even sure
    >>what they want but as long as it's pretty or at least involves killing
    >>defenseless forest animals they'll buy it.
    >>C. A bunch of ESPN junkies who only care about the latest Madden NFL.
    >>D. Adrenaline junkies who thrive on twitch games like Doom/Quake.
    >>E. The Grognard, who just wants to re-enact the Battle of Waterloo for
    >>the umpteenth time but with better graphics and more realistic
    >>options. F. Blizzard Fanboi.
    >>
    >
    > So, Knight, I guess you're in F? ;)

    You betcher ASS I am!!


    Oh wait. Acutally I'm A. D. and F. And a smidgeon of E but not often. And
    of course other niches on the consoles. :)

    > Hong "die hard geek who still wants Ultima 4 style games" Ooi

    Woot!

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On that special day, Knight37, (knight37m@email.com) said...

    > Don't you think 120+ IQ people should be doing something for society a
    > little more relevant than making video games? I mean, they've been gifted
    > with a rare intelligence, shouldn't they be a doctor or something? ;)

    Eek, I can't see blood. And no one wanted me for a culture researcher. I
    didn't yield a profit, you see?


    Gabriele Neukam

    Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


    --
    Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
    just so, at no cost.
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On that special day, Knight37, (knight37m@email.com) said...

    > And other than "B", there's no "mass" appeal there. It's just a bunch of
    > niches. And "F", but they only buy from Blizzard so it doesn't really help
    > anyone else.

    Heh, there are hybroids there, too. Like me, who plays Diablo2 and MM9
    side by side (not exactly at the same moments, though)

    IMHO you left out two more categories of minorities

    g) the puzzle solvers, who do Myst and Sherlock Holmes
    h) the "humorous" game players, which might play a Laffer game, but the
    German variation is worse. They don't play adventures, they play
    reaction games with adult content, like sven bomwollen or puller alarm.

    http://sven.bild.de/ gives an impression, what these "games" are about.
    It is like these students having spring break parties on the beach.

    In these games, you can do the things you'd never dare to in real life,
    like hit your boss over the head. Maybe these can be categorized as
    stress relief games; but this is a quite euphemistic description.


    Gabriele Neukam

    Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


    --
    Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
    just so, at no cost.
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly Gabriele Neukam <Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de> Spake
    Unto All:

    >German variation is worse. They don't play adventures, they play
    >reaction games with adult content, like sven bomwollen or puller alarm.
    >
    >http://sven.bild.de/ gives an impression, what these "games" are about.
    >It is like these students having spring break parties on the beach.

    I also found this one interesting (note to non-german-speakers -
    lederzwerge means "leatherdwarfs": http://www.lederzwerge.de/ )

    I wasn't aware these games at all existed, but it all looks quite cute
    and harmless.

    If you want really bad stuff, japanese hentai games are probably hard
    to beat, except with a really big stick.

    --
    "Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
    -- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
    with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:

    >Many people try to pirate, then give up because
    >they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.

    Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
    will.

    --
    "Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
    -- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
    with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:5cv321pfu11g54v08170lan78tc0rab2qf@4ax.com...
    > Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:
    >
    >>Many people try to pirate, then give up because
    >>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
    >
    > Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
    > will.

    why? Just because you find it interesting and easy to learn, doesn't mean
    everyone else does. It's a big world out there - not everyone is like you.
    For example, can you successfully grow your own vegetables? If you can't,
    why not? It's easy to learn. (and if you can, I suspect you'll realize that
    not everyone wants to do the same things you do, no matter how easy it is to
    learn)
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:

    >>>Many people try to pirate, then give up because
    >>>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
    >>
    >> Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
    >> will.
    >
    >why?

    Because they FAILED to do the WRONG THING because they were TOO LAZY.

    --
    "Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
    -- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
    with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

    >On 2005-02-27, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >> Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:
    >
    >>> A very small fraction of people will pirate to
    >>>save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
    >>>after all the hassles they go through.
    >>
    >> What hassles?
    >
    >Off the top of my head? Trojans and spyware. Then there's the
    >no-cd crack thing which means you're not getting the honest to
    >goodness real executable.

    Ah, OK. Fairenuff.


    --
    "Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
    -- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
    with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:77842112rc0u9qj8fbd4qrcl42tseja3pu@4ax.com...
    > Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:
    >
    >>>>Many people try to pirate, then give up because
    >>>>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
    >>>
    >>> Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
    >>> will.
    >>
    >>why?
    >
    > Because they FAILED to do the WRONG THING because they were TOO LAZY.

    heh heh - well, now that you put it THAT way :)

    That was funny!
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> once tried to test me with:

    > But you were talking about self-publishing in the absence of funding
    > from a big publisher. Are all those 'on-board' RPG players going to pay
    > in advance of development?

    Well no, of course not. That's the rub. You've got to come up with the
    startup money. This is a bar to entry in the field, but I'm not sure that's
    a bad thing.

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "shadows" <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote in message
    news:slrnd23ooh.4nk.shadows@helena.whitefang.com...
    > On 2005-02-27, Jonah Falcon <jonahnynla@mindspring.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
    >> news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
    >>> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
    >>>
    >>> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out
    >>> buggy
    >>> products.
    >>
    >> Looking Glass was demolished. Had nothing to do with bugs. Bugs don't end
    >> development groups -- poor sales do.
    >>
    >> Besides, developers are like rock bands. They break up, and the talent
    >> goes
    >> off and forms new bands.
    >
    > Like Troika? Good art talent that was splintered from the good
    > programmers and project managers. Lotta good it did us customers.

    You need that one leader with a vision. See: Sid Meier, Warren Spector, etc,
    etc. A leaderless group tends to be distracted and scattershot. There has to
    be that one driving force that gives a group a direction and someplace to
    go.

    Jonah Falcon
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> once tried to test me with:

    >> A lot of people ARE downloading KOTOR2 actually. They just aren't
    >> giving any money for it.
    >
    > I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
    > realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
    > the first place. A very small fraction of people will pirate to
    > save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
    > after all the hassles they go through.

    My point is that the demand for downloadable games exists, and there are a
    lot of people with the right "stuff" to download full size games without a
    problem. The only trick is getting them to pay for it.

    And most people honestly do not mind paying for something they enjoy. They
    don't want to get ripped off, but they (assuming they have money to begin
    with, and if not they're not target market anyway) will gladly send someone
    money for games they actually play.

    Valve is betting they will. And Stardock. It's just a matter of time before
    this is commonplace.

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

    > Valve is betting they will. And Stardock. It's just a matter of time before
    > this is commonplace.

    Stardock isn't going to make a KOTOR3. In fact Stardock probably
    can't fit the art assets necessary for a modern CRPG into a
    download. We'll assume it's anywhere from 2 to 4 gigs of data.

    Valve on the other hand has a HUGE customer base where they can
    pay huge sums of money to rent out big pipes and make a profit
    because they know the demand is there. All-you-can-eat bandwidth
    pipes exist but they tend to be expensive.
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    >Stardock isn't going to make a KOTOR3. In fact Stardock probably
    >can't fit the art assets necessary for a modern CRPG into a
    >download.

    It's a mistake to analyze a dynamic situation from a static
    perspective. Stardock will go where the bandwidth (and business
    model) allows them. Today, tomorrow, the next.

    C//
  46. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com> once tried to test me with:

    > Knight37 wrote:
    >>> Under that kind of thinking employees getting paid to sit around
    >>> doing nothing is better than having them add to the number of hours
    >>> a project takes.
    >>
    >> BOGGLE. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen in a company as
    >> small as Troika.
    >
    > Heh, you wouldn't think so, but it all depends on the mentality and
    > background of the BIC--beancounters in charge. I've seen some pretty
    > amazing things, that until I got out of the construction industry
    > weren't even aware existed.

    In Troika's case the BIC's were game developers from Interplay who took a
    chance on creating their own startup.

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  47. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Gabriele Neukam <Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de> once tried to
    test me with:

    > On that special day, Knight37, (knight37m@email.com) said...
    >
    >> And other than "B", there's no "mass" appeal there. It's just a bunch
    >> of niches. And "F", but they only buy from Blizzard so it doesn't
    >> really help anyone else.
    >
    > Heh, there are hybroids there, too. Like me, who plays Diablo2 and MM9
    > side by side (not exactly at the same moments, though)

    Sure, most people in live are members of more than one niche. :)

    > IMHO you left out two more categories of minorities
    >
    > g) the puzzle solvers, who do Myst and Sherlock Holmes
    > h) the "humorous" game players, which might play a Laffer game, but
    > the German variation is worse. They don't play adventures, they play
    > reaction games with adult content, like sven bomwollen or puller
    > alarm.

    Talk about niche.

    I also left out the near extinct I) Flight stick Jock.

    > In these games, you can do the things you'd never dare to in real
    > life, like hit your boss over the head. Maybe these can be categorized
    > as stress relief games; but this is a quite euphemistic description.

    Doesn't sound interesting to me. Guess I'm not in that niche.

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  48. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> once tried to test me
    with:

    > If you want really bad stuff, japanese hentai games are probably hard
    > to beat, except with a really big stick.

    Yah, those are for sick little monkeys.

    I've noticed that a lot of the "sick little monkey" stuff seems to come
    from Japan for some reason. Of course they probably think some of our
    subculture is pretty sick too (actually so do I).

    --

    Knight37

    The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
  49. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
    > Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> once tried to test me
    > with:
    >
    >> If you want really bad stuff, japanese hentai games are probably hard
    >> to beat, except with a really big stick.
    >
    > Yah, those are for sick little monkeys.
    >
    > I've noticed that a lot of the "sick little monkey" stuff seems to come
    > from Japan for some reason. Of course they probably think some of our
    > subculture is pretty sick too (actually so do I).

    They're not sick.

    The Japanese game developers just get away with murder when
    you're playing a game like "Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty." I
    didn't know *what* to think when your dispatcher has a nervous
    breakdown and spills the beans on being molested by his mom. That
    just blew me away. A non sequitor that was stupid, and quite
    demented.

    Or how about one of the Resident Evil games where you find out in
    the end the bad guy is some transvestite. It never makes any
    sense to the plot and always seems to be there for gratutious
    shock value.
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