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Fate of Troika

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Anonymous
February 26, 2005 2:43:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029

hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
products.

More about : fate troika

Anonymous
February 26, 2005 2:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
>
> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
> products.

*holds envelope up to forehead*

It won't.

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 2:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> once tried to test me with:

> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
>
> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out
> buggy products.

At least, if you do, don't put your name on it. :) 



--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Related resources
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
>
> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
> products.

It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
their developed games to be really lacking.

Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
quickly.

ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
(for all my friends and I anyway)

Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled jigglies in
the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end of the Leopold
society and you lost all interest in having to replay it again.

As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
Fallout license and not Troika.

Ceo-
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
wrote:

>"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
>news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
>> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
>>
>> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
>> products.
>
>It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
>their developed games to be really lacking.
>
>Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
>quickly.

I really liked it, but the combat was far too easy in turn based, and
impossible in real time. And the last 15% of the game felt really
rushed (and was there a missing subplot about gnomes kidnapping people
and breeding them with trolls ?).

>ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
>(for all my friends and I anyway)
>
>Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
>realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled jigglies in
>the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end of the Leopold
>society and you lost all interest in having to replay it again.

Again, I liked it until I got the the game stopping bug. Or rather,
the second game stopping bug - I got past the Loepold one with a
developer code line to skip the level. The second was a door barred
with a non-sliding wooded bar. I read that if you hit it from the
exact angle, it opened, but after an hour or so of running and the
door and bouncing off, I gave up.

>As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
>Fallout license and not Troika.
>
Yep.

Troika has a lot of talent, but their stuff suffered from being a
little rushed and flawed in some way.

--

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
And what's with all the carrots ?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
Bunnies ! Bunnies ! It must be BUNNIES !
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> once tried to test me
with:

> To me, Troika's problem was they had big ideas, but lacked the
> business experience to negotiate a proper deal. For example, every
> game they made, it was the same story about a patch: "if the publisher
> pays us to make a patch, we'll make one"... I've never heard a game
> developer say that before. Every game released in the last ten years
> has needed a patch. How about telling Atari or whomever a patch has to
> be a part of the funding deal?
>
> No, it appears Troika just took whatever sum was offered them and
> promised they could deliver the game without really knowing how much $
> or work it would really take. They had no QA, no real testing, and (it
> would appear) a bare bones programming team. And after they released a
> game, they appeared to be somewhat adversarial to the publisher,
> blaming them for not funding a patch or whatnot. No publisher worked
> with them twice, so that's gotta tell you something.

You make a lot of sense. Here's a fun Interview I found on GameSpy (i've
interjected my own comments):

GameSpy: Troika has been around for several years, and had three good
titles under its belt. Why do you think you weren't able to secure funding
for your next project?

Boyarsky: I'm not sure, you'd have to ask the publishers. If I had to
guess, I'd say it's because triple A titles are costing more and more to
make, and people are looking for titles that will appeal to a more
mainstream audience than ours have traditionally. In plain English, our
games just didn't sell enough units.

KNIGHT37: If that's a problem, then self-publish. There IS a market for
GOOD computer RPG games. If EA and Atari don't want to touch it, then find
a smaller publisher or publish your own titles via the internet. If it is
true that the market isn't massive enough for RPGs, then cater to the
market that is there in a way that makes money, don't try to make it appeal
to the masses who can't even understand the concept of the genre much less
appreciate it. This advice is pretty much moot at this point for Troika but
for someone else starting a RPG dev team it might not be.

KNIGHT37: But I have to question if this is just Bullshit or not. Why is
Lucas Arts bothering publishing KOTOR 1 and 2? Why is Bethesda making
Oblivious er oBlivion? Why is Bioware working on Dragon Age and NWN2? Why
are RPG titles on the consoles such popular items (esp. in Japan)?

KNIGHT37: If you mean *YOUR* RPGs as opposed to RPGs in general, I do not
think it's a lack of good ideas, I think it's a lack of quality control.



GameSpy: Did you have any projects in the works? If so, what will happen to
them now?

Boyarsky: We had several projects in various stages of pre production,
mostly just documents, though. We did have our own tech demo, as well as
another pitch/demo using the HL2 engine, but that was about it. I don't
suppose anything will happen with any of our proposals.

KNIGHT37: AFTER your game is out is too late to be pitching a game to
another publisher. Lining up games at least a year before the current game
is done is the only way you can keep business rolling in. So either these
ideas just weren't thought of as worthwhile, or the game companies you were
pitching them to didn't like Troika for some reason.



GameSpy: What happens to Bloodlines in terms of support? Were any patches
or updates in the works?

Boyarsky: I cannot comment on Bloodlines' support, you'd have to talk
to Activision about that. We were not working on any patches or updates -
we haven't had a team since mid December.

KNIGHT37: Reading between the lines - No, it's dumped, there will be no
patches. No one who knows anything about how the game works is going to be
around to fix it. And besides that, Activision has never been very good
about post-launch support, so why should they start now?



GameSpy: What's next for you?

Boyarsky: I have absolutely no idea. Any suggestions?

KNIGHT37: In a different interview you said something about having plans to
hire a business person to do the business end while you and the other
founders of Troika acted as lead designers. If that's where your talents
lie then I suggest hiring on to another gaming developer that needs RPG-
designer talent.


--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 26 Feb 2005 07:18:59 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
>> Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
>> realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled
>> jigglies in the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end
>> of the Leopold society and you lost all interest in having to replay
>> it again.

Bloodlines really showed up that Troika don't know how to polish a game,
i.e. remove all the bugs and tidy up loose ends. Consider that they had
nearly an extra year to work on it as it was originally due to release
after HL2's 1st missed date, although that may be down to not being able
to budget for that extra development time as no-one expected Valve to
stall so long.

Releasing at the same time as HL2 probably hurt their sales, although
I've not seen any estimated figures on that.
>
>I'm not so confident in Bethesda either. But I guess a "not sure loser" is
>better than a "sure loser." Having said that, the one game of theirs I am
>actually looking forward to is that Cthulhu game, because, hey, they can't
>break the RPG systems if the game isn't an RPG. And Morrowind sure was
>pretty.

I thought that the Cthulhu game was going to be based upon the Call Of
Cthulhu RPG, or at least Cthulhu d20 ?

--
Alfie
<http://www.delphia.co.uk/&gt;
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet> wrote:

>"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
>news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
>> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
>>
>> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
>> products.
>
>It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
>their developed games to be really lacking.
>
>Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
>quickly.
>
>ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
>(for all my friends and I anyway)

You didn't really need to go any higher than that anyway. If you did it would
have been hopelessly easy, and it was pretty easy to begin with.

>Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
>realised it was just a hacknslash game and all the well modeled jigglies in
>the world couldnt make up for it, or it crashed at the end of the Leopold
>society and you lost all interest in having to replay it again.
>
>As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
>Fallout license and not Troika.
>
>Ceo-
>
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

> developer code line to skip the level. The second was a door barred
> with a non-sliding wooded bar. I read that if you hit it from the
> exact angle, it opened, but after an hour or so of running and the
> door and bouncing off, I gave up.

You had to USE the bar from a correct angle :) 

No shame there, I was stuck also for a while. Bad design. But
I loved Vampire Bloodlines overall.

-Moa Dragon
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> once tried to test me with:

>>I'm not so confident in Bethesda either. But I guess a "not sure
>>loser" is better than a "sure loser." Having said that, the one game
>>of theirs I am actually looking forward to is that Cthulhu game,
>>because, hey, they can't break the RPG systems if the game isn't an
>>RPG. And Morrowind sure was pretty.
>
> I thought that the Cthulhu game was going to be based upon the Call Of
> Cthulhu RPG, or at least Cthulhu d20 ?

Everything I've seen and read about it indicates that it's an action game
full blown. I don't think it has much in the way of RPG elements if any.
It's based on the Call of Cthulhu RPG in the sense that it will use story
elements and background information from that RPG. And the insanity. The
more you are exposed to the "Mythos" the more insane your character gets
and the less control over the character you have on the screen. I'm
expecting some really funky insanity effects.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <Xns9609136E5F191knight37m@130.133.1.4>, knight37m@email.com
says...
> "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> once tried to test me
> with:
>
> Boyarsky: I'm not sure, you'd have to ask the publishers. If I had to
> guess, I'd say it's because triple A titles are costing more and more to
> make, and people are looking for titles that will appeal to a more
> mainstream audience than ours have traditionally. In plain English, our
> games just didn't sell enough units.
>
> KNIGHT37: If that's a problem, then self-publish. There IS a market for
> GOOD computer RPG games. If EA and Atari don't want to touch it, then find
> a smaller publisher or publish your own titles via the internet. If it is
> true that the market isn't massive enough for RPGs, then cater to the
> market that is there in a way that makes money, don't try to make it appeal
> to the masses who can't even understand the concept of the genre much less
> appreciate it. This advice is pretty much moot at this point for Troika but
> for someone else starting a RPG dev team it might not be.

The problem here is that their concept of an RPG may include high
quality graphics etc. that will cost a certain large amount of money to
create. If the market is not there, that outlay won't be recouped.

Or are you saying that "real CRPG players don't care about graphics"?

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:21:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns960926920E5CAknight37m@130.133.1.4...
> "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> once tried to test me with:
>
> >>I'm not so confident in Bethesda either. But I guess a "not sure
> >>loser" is better than a "sure loser." Having said that, the one game
> >>of theirs I am actually looking forward to is that Cthulhu game,
> >>because, hey, they can't break the RPG systems if the game isn't an
> >>RPG. And Morrowind sure was pretty.
> >
> > I thought that the Cthulhu game was going to be based upon the Call Of
> > Cthulhu RPG, or at least Cthulhu d20 ?
>
> Everything I've seen and read about it indicates that it's an action game
> full blown. I don't think it has much in the way of RPG elements if any.
> It's based on the Call of Cthulhu RPG in the sense that it will use story
> elements and background information from that RPG. And the insanity. The
> more you are exposed to the "Mythos" the more insane your character gets
> and the less control over the character you have on the screen. I'm
> expecting some really funky insanity effects.
>

It supposedly uses an RPG system without showing the player any of the
underlying numbers. It sounds like the system will be a lot like the GTA
San Andreas system, ie., the more you shoot at creatures, the better your
character is at aiming.

Hopefully the insanity system has some neat effects like Eternal Darkness
had.
February 26, 2005 6:37:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9609136E5F191knight37m@130.133.1.4...

>
> GameSpy: What's next for you?
>
> Boyarsky: I have absolutely no idea. Any suggestions?
>
> KNIGHT37: In a different interview you said something about having plans
> to
> hire a business person to do the business end while you and the other
> founders of Troika acted as lead designers. If that's where your talents
> lie then I suggest hiring on to another gaming developer that needs RPG-
> designer talent.

Yup - that's what they should do. Lots of talent at Troika. I'd like to see
what they could do with enough money to *really* make the project.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 8:49:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> once tried to test me with:

> In article <Xns9609136E5F191knight37m@130.133.1.4>,
> knight37m@email.com says...
>> "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> once tried to test me
>> with:
>>
>> Boyarsky: I'm not sure, you'd have to ask the publishers. If I
>> had to
>> guess, I'd say it's because triple A titles are costing more and more
>> to make, and people are looking for titles that will appeal to a more
>> mainstream audience than ours have traditionally. In plain English,
>> our games just didn't sell enough units.
>>
>> KNIGHT37: If that's a problem, then self-publish. There IS a market
>> for GOOD computer RPG games. If EA and Atari don't want to touch it,
>> then find a smaller publisher or publish your own titles via the
>> internet. If it is true that the market isn't massive enough for
>> RPGs, then cater to the market that is there in a way that makes
>> money, don't try to make it appeal to the masses who can't even
>> understand the concept of the genre much less appreciate it. This
>> advice is pretty much moot at this point for Troika but for someone
>> else starting a RPG dev team it might not be.
>
> The problem here is that their concept of an RPG may include high
> quality graphics etc. that will cost a certain large amount of money
> to create. If the market is not there, that outlay won't be recouped.
>
> Or are you saying that "real CRPG players don't care about graphics"?

I beleive that quality graphics can be done and that there are enough PC
RPG players to fund the creation of those graphics. What has to happen is
that they have to make sure all the RPG players are on-board, which means
making the gameplay addictive and having good QA.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
February 26, 2005 11:40:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
wrote:

>> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
>> products.

Bugs have nothing to do with it. The lesson is don't put out bad
games. Vampire was the worst game I've seen in years - and that's
saying a lot, because we haven't had anything BUT bad games in years.

>It is still pretty sad... The worst part is though that I found all 3 of
>their developed games to be really lacking.
>
>Arcanum could've been great, but it got repetative, easy and boring very
>quickly.

I'm not sure what it was with Arcanum that came up short for me, but
for some reason I just lost interest in it about halfway through. I
can't point to any one thing it was lacking but it just wasn't
compelling enough to keep me going.

>ToEE was doomed to failure the day it was released due to its level 10 cap
>(for all my friends and I anyway)

Doomed due to a level cap? So, Baldur's Gate was also doomed? That's
an... odd... assertion.

ToEE was a fantastic game engine, but the gameplay was pretty dull,
and the game was too short. It seemed more like a big demo than a
game, to me. Maybe somebody else will take that game engine and do
something great with it. Fallout 3 with that game engine would be
pretty fantastic.

>Bloodlines was so great, for the first few hours when after that you
>realised it was just a hacknslash game

Perhaps some of us take longer to notice the obvious than others :p 

It's not even a hacknslash game, that is a term that applies to RPGs,
and Vampire is not an RPG. It's an action game. If putting stats on
characters made a game an RPG then Mechwarrior is also an RPG, right?

No, it's the ability to interact with your environment and influnce
events in a meaningful way, through independent action and personal
choices, that make a game an RPG. Character development is meaningless
when you go through the game on rails.

> or it crashed at the end of the Leopold society and you lost all interest
>in having to replay it again.

Speak for yourself, I gave up on the game long before that.

>As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
>Fallout license and not Troika.

Oh, great. As far as I know, Bethesda has never put out a decent game
- by which I mean a game that I want to play. Of past and present game
companies, I'd rate Bethesda dead last for that reason alone. The
Fallout license may as well be dead, as far as I'm concerned, because
there's no way in hell anybody at Bethesda has the right stuff to make
a Fallout game I'd buy. Bethesda games are a whole lotta nothing. I
couldn't make a more dull and unimaginative game than Morrowind if I
tried. I shudder to think there are people out there who actually were
entertained by that endlessly repetitive and uninspired garbage.
February 27, 2005 2:14:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

> Online-delivery is the way for a small developer to make money today. I bet
> Stardock is making a pretty good amount on GalCiv and their other stuff
> they are doing at their gaming network site. Same for Jeff Vogel, I am sure
> he's not making millions or anything like that but I bet he makes a decent
> amount and he gets to do it by doing something he loves.

The merits of Galciv and the Avernum series withstanding, neither
of those games require a very large download. In fact, if KOTOR2
was being sold on-line only, a lot of people would not have
downloaded 4 CDs worth of data.

Production value (music, art, voice acting, etc.) are so high
right now that the only way to deliver it properly is to put it
in a box and on a shelf. Publishers are good at this. In fact,
it's the core competency of the publisher to do this.

Troika would have you think publishers are there to do Q&A.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 8:33:57 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9609D13D31545knight37m@130.133.1.4...
> "James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> once tried to test me with:
>
> > Well, if they did their accounting like my last employer did then they
> > counted each hour of programmer time as an "expense". Like a lawyer
> > billing his client by the hour, each programmer would have "billed"
> > his time against the project. The more time they spend working on the
> > project, the more the project "costs" the company. And the company
> > only gets a fixed amount from the publisher, so if too many hours are
> > spent working on the product it shows up as a "loss" on the company's
> > books.
> >
>
> Well what the hell else were they doing then?

I'm not explaining it very well. Its the accounting equivalent of measuring
something in units smaller than a Plank length. Think of it as the
bean-counters counting every bean by the atom. And then trying to scrimp on
the atoms in order to save beans. The accounting reaches the point where it
becomes so divorced from reality that it blocks attempts at common sense
acts (like fixing sales stopping bugs). Under that kind of thinking
employees getting paid to sit around doing nothing is better than having
them add to the number of hours a project takes.

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 9:16:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> once tried to test me with:

> On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
>
>> Online-delivery is the way for a small developer to make money today.
>> I bet Stardock is making a pretty good amount on GalCiv and their
>> other stuff they are doing at their gaming network site. Same for
>> Jeff Vogel, I am sure he's not making millions or anything like that
>> but I bet he makes a decent amount and he gets to do it by doing
>> something he loves.
>
> The merits of Galciv and the Avernum series withstanding, neither
> of those games require a very large download. In fact, if KOTOR2
> was being sold on-line only, a lot of people would not have
> downloaded 4 CDs worth of data.

A lot of people ARE downloading KOTOR2 actually. They just aren't giving
any money for it.

But you are correct, a 4-CD game at this point in time isn't going to sell
as many copies online as it can through retail.

> Production value (music, art, voice acting, etc.) are so high
> right now that the only way to deliver it properly is to put it
> in a box and on a shelf. Publishers are good at this. In fact,
> it's the core competency of the publisher to do this.

Production values might have to be sacrified for a small-time developer
catering to a niche market.

> Troika would have you think publishers are there to do Q&A.

Heh. No arguments there.

I do not honestly think the PC Industry is ready for download-only for
every game made. I think it's a good option for certain niche genres.

But there's no reason you couldn't do an RPG with decent graphics in under
500mb. You'd have to toss full-voice acting and you might have to drop some
texture resolution.

The thing is, though, you can do some stuff online that you can't do very
well through retail. Like Episode gaming, where the gamer downloads a
portion of the game, plays that, then the next, etc. Problem is so far it
seems a lot of developers have been rather greedy about what they think a
small "episode" is worth. Bioware is doing it right with the 'bite size'
downloadable content for a price for the NWN engine. That'd be another way
to do it, a small developer could put out a good engine that they then
release content to continuously. And of course updates for the engine to
keep it reasonably modern. And every 3 or 4 years a major revision that
requires another large download. Hmm that's sounding a lot like EQ...

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 9:18:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> once tried to test me with:

> "Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9609D13D31545knight37m@130.133.1.4...
>> "James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> once tried to test me with:
>>
>> > Well, if they did their accounting like my last employer did then
>> > they counted each hour of programmer time as an "expense". Like a
>> > lawyer billing his client by the hour, each programmer would have
>> > "billed" his time against the project. The more time they spend
>> > working on the project, the more the project "costs" the company.
>> > And the company only gets a fixed amount from the publisher, so if
>> > too many hours are spent working on the product it shows up as a
>> > "loss" on the company's books.
>> >
>>
>> Well what the hell else were they doing then?
>
> I'm not explaining it very well. Its the accounting equivalent of
> measuring something in units smaller than a Plank length. Think of it
> as the bean-counters counting every bean by the atom. And then trying
> to scrimp on the atoms in order to save beans. The accounting reaches
> the point where it becomes so divorced from reality that it blocks
> attempts at common sense acts (like fixing sales stopping bugs).
> Under that kind of thinking employees getting paid to sit around doing
> nothing is better than having them add to the number of hours a
> project takes.

BOGGLE. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen in a company as small as
Troika.



--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
February 27, 2005 11:33:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
> shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> once tried to test me with:
>
>> On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Online-delivery is the way for a small developer to make money today.
>>> I bet Stardock is making a pretty good amount on GalCiv and their
>>> other stuff they are doing at their gaming network site. Same for
>>> Jeff Vogel, I am sure he's not making millions or anything like that
>>> but I bet he makes a decent amount and he gets to do it by doing
>>> something he loves.
>>
>> The merits of Galciv and the Avernum series withstanding, neither
>> of those games require a very large download. In fact, if KOTOR2
>> was being sold on-line only, a lot of people would not have
>> downloaded 4 CDs worth of data.
>
> A lot of people ARE downloading KOTOR2 actually. They just aren't giving
> any money for it.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
the first place. A very small fraction of people will pirate to
save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
after all the hassles they go through.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 2:33:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <Xns9609783FE421Aknight37m@130.133.1.4>, knight37m@email.com
says...
> Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> once tried to test me with:

> > The problem here is that their concept of an RPG may include high
> > quality graphics etc. that will cost a certain large amount of money
> > to create. If the market is not there, that outlay won't be recouped.
> >
> > Or are you saying that "real CRPG players don't care about graphics"?
>
> I beleive that quality graphics can be done and that there are enough PC
> RPG players to fund the creation of those graphics. What has to happen is
> that they have to make sure all the RPG players are on-board, which means
> making the gameplay addictive and having good QA.

But you were talking about self-publishing in the absence of funding
from a big publisher. Are all those 'on-board' RPG players going to pay
in advance of development?

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 2:34:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <8dm121t1o4361ll6t5qaaacrrp1asdhftb@4ax.com>, spectre911
@hotmail.com says...
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:21:06 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
> wrote:

> >As cruel as it may be for me to say, im very glad Betheda purchased the
> >Fallout license and not Troika.
>
> Oh, great. As far as I know, Bethesda has never put out a decent game
> - by which I mean a game that I want to play. Of past and present game
> companies, I'd rate Bethesda dead last for that reason alone. The
> Fallout license may as well be dead, as far as I'm concerned, because
> there's no way in hell anybody at Bethesda has the right stuff to make
> a Fallout game I'd buy. Bethesda games are a whole lotta nothing. I
> couldn't make a more dull and unimaginative game than Morrowind if I
> tried. I shudder to think there are people out there who actually were
> entertained by that endlessly repetitive and uninspired garbage.

Each to their own. Loads of people *love* Morrowind.

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 2:36:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Knight37 wrote:
>> Under that kind of thinking employees getting paid to sit around
>> doing nothing is better than having them add to the number of hours a
>> project takes.
>
> BOGGLE. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen in a company as
> small as Troika.

Heh, you wouldn't think so, but it all depends on the mentality and
background of the BIC--beancounters in charge. I've seen some pretty
amazing things, that until I got out of the construction industry weren't
even aware existed.

--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 5:21:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "James Gassaway" <dtravel@sonic.net> Spake Unto All:

>Under that kind of thinking
>employees getting paid to sit around doing nothing is better than having
>them add to the number of hours a project takes.

Sounds like normal accounting to me.
There's been accounting sillinesses like that on every company I've
ever worked.
One company I worked on, with 1700 employees, even bankrupted because
management didn't understand that internal budgeting results do not
reflect reality.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 5:21:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Sounds like normal accounting to me.
> There's been accounting sillinesses like that on every company I've
> ever worked.
> One company I worked on, with 1700 employees, even bankrupted because
> management didn't understand that internal budgeting results do not
> reflect reality.

Amazing, ain't it? :-)

As I said above, I wasn't even aware such a mentality existed until I got
out of construction.

--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 6:01:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
>
> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
> products.

Looking Glass was demolished. Had nothing to do with bugs. Bugs don't end
development groups -- poor sales do.

Besides, developers are like rock bands. They break up, and the talent goes
off and forms new bands.

Jonah Falcon
February 27, 2005 6:01:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-02-27, Jonah Falcon <jonahnynla@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
> news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
>> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
>>
>> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out buggy
>> products.
>
> Looking Glass was demolished. Had nothing to do with bugs. Bugs don't end
> development groups -- poor sales do.
>
> Besides, developers are like rock bands. They break up, and the talent goes
> off and forms new bands.

Like Troika? Good art talent that was splintered from the good
programmers and project managers. Lotta good it did us customers.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 7:48:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
>realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
>the first place.

Not all of them, anyway.

> A very small fraction of people will pirate to
>save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
>after all the hassles they go through.

What hassles?


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
February 27, 2005 7:48:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:o nq3219qbevikbg2caetu1ahcbkfgnlo83@4ax.com...
> Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
>>realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
>>the first place.
>
> Not all of them, anyway.
>
>> A very small fraction of people will pirate to
>>save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
>>after all the hassles they go through.
>
> What hassles?

It's like anything else - if you're "in the know", it's easy. But don't
presume that everyone knows the proper networks / groups / programs to use.
Or the cracks available, cd emulators, etc etc. It *is* a hassle unless you
spend some time learning it. Many people try to pirate, then give up because
they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
February 27, 2005 7:48:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-02-27, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>> A very small fraction of people will pirate to
>>save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
>>after all the hassles they go through.
>
> What hassles?

Off the top of my head? Trojans and spyware. Then there's the
no-cd crack thing which means you're not getting the honest to
goodness real executable.

Simply: I trust the publisher and not the warez kiddie.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 7:48:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

> Many people try to pirate, then give up because
>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.

I would guess that, outside of l33t circles, the majority of all
pirating is friend-to-friend, cd-to-cd. "Burn me a copy" kind of
stuff. That's easy, not hard at all.

C//
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 7:54:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 27 Feb 2005 03:47:59 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

>A. A lot of die hard geeks that still want Ultima 7 style games.
>B. An ASSLoAD of Myst, Sims, and Deer Hunter fans who aren't even sure what
>they want but as long as it's pretty or at least involves killing
>defenseless forest animals they'll buy it.
>C. A bunch of ESPN junkies who only care about the latest Madden NFL.
>D. Adrenaline junkies who thrive on twitch games like Doom/Quake.
>E. The Grognard, who just wants to re-enact the Battle of Waterloo for the
>umpteenth time but with better graphics and more realistic options.
>F. Blizzard Fanboi.
>

So, Knight, I guess you're in F? ;) 


Hong "die hard geek who still wants Ultima 4 style games" Ooi
--
Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
hong@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 7:55:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Hong Ooi <hong@zipworld.com.au> once tried to test me with:

> On 27 Feb 2005 03:47:59 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
>
>>A. A lot of die hard geeks that still want Ultima 7 style games.
>>B. An ASSLoAD of Myst, Sims, and Deer Hunter fans who aren't even sure
>>what they want but as long as it's pretty or at least involves killing
>>defenseless forest animals they'll buy it.
>>C. A bunch of ESPN junkies who only care about the latest Madden NFL.
>>D. Adrenaline junkies who thrive on twitch games like Doom/Quake.
>>E. The Grognard, who just wants to re-enact the Battle of Waterloo for
>>the umpteenth time but with better graphics and more realistic
>>options. F. Blizzard Fanboi.
>>
>
> So, Knight, I guess you're in F? ;) 

You betcher ASS I am!!


Oh wait. Acutally I'm A. D. and F. And a smidgeon of E but not often. And
of course other niches on the consoles. :) 

> Hong "die hard geek who still wants Ultima 4 style games" Ooi

Woot!

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 8:57:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On that special day, Knight37, (knight37m@email.com) said...

> Don't you think 120+ IQ people should be doing something for society a
> little more relevant than making video games? I mean, they've been gifted
> with a rare intelligence, shouldn't they be a doctor or something? ;) 

Eek, I can't see blood. And no one wanted me for a culture researcher. I
didn't yield a profit, you see?


Gabriele Neukam

Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


--
Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
just so, at no cost.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 8:57:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On that special day, Knight37, (knight37m@email.com) said...

> And other than "B", there's no "mass" appeal there. It's just a bunch of
> niches. And "F", but they only buy from Blizzard so it doesn't really help
> anyone else.

Heh, there are hybroids there, too. Like me, who plays Diablo2 and MM9
side by side (not exactly at the same moments, though)

IMHO you left out two more categories of minorities

g) the puzzle solvers, who do Myst and Sherlock Holmes
h) the "humorous" game players, which might play a Laffer game, but the
German variation is worse. They don't play adventures, they play
reaction games with adult content, like sven bomwollen or puller alarm.

http://sven.bild.de/ gives an impression, what these "games" are about.
It is like these students having spring break parties on the beach.

In these games, you can do the things you'd never dare to in real life,
like hit your boss over the head. Maybe these can be categorized as
stress relief games; but this is a quite euphemistic description.


Gabriele Neukam

Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


--
Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
just so, at no cost.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 9:52:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly Gabriele Neukam <Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de> Spake
Unto All:

>German variation is worse. They don't play adventures, they play
>reaction games with adult content, like sven bomwollen or puller alarm.
>
>http://sven.bild.de/ gives an impression, what these "games" are about.
>It is like these students having spring break parties on the beach.

I also found this one interesting (note to non-german-speakers -
lederzwerge means "leatherdwarfs": http://www.lederzwerge.de/ )

I wasn't aware these games at all existed, but it all looks quite cute
and harmless.

If you want really bad stuff, japanese hentai games are probably hard
to beat, except with a really big stick.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 9:52:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:

>Many people try to pirate, then give up because
>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.

Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
will.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
February 27, 2005 9:52:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5cv321pfu11g54v08170lan78tc0rab2qf@4ax.com...
> Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>Many people try to pirate, then give up because
>>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
>
> Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
> will.

why? Just because you find it interesting and easy to learn, doesn't mean
everyone else does. It's a big world out there - not everyone is like you.
For example, can you successfully grow your own vegetables? If you can't,
why not? It's easy to learn. (and if you can, I suspect you'll realize that
not everyone wants to do the same things you do, no matter how easy it is to
learn)
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 11:37:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:

>>>Many people try to pirate, then give up because
>>>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
>>
>> Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
>> will.
>
>why?

Because they FAILED to do the WRONG THING because they were TOO LAZY.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 11:37:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>On 2005-02-27, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>> A very small fraction of people will pirate to
>>>save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
>>>after all the hassles they go through.
>>
>> What hassles?
>
>Off the top of my head? Trojans and spyware. Then there's the
>no-cd crack thing which means you're not getting the honest to
>goodness real executable.

Ah, OK. Fairenuff.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
February 27, 2005 11:37:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:77842112rc0u9qj8fbd4qrcl42tseja3pu@4ax.com...
> Thusly "JWB" <jwb3333__removethissection__@excite.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>>>Many people try to pirate, then give up because
>>>>they don't want to spend the time to learn it properly.
>>>
>>> Good lord. If that doesn't make one despair for humanity, nothing
>>> will.
>>
>>why?
>
> Because they FAILED to do the WRONG THING because they were TOO LAZY.

heh heh - well, now that you put it THAT way :) 

That was funny!
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 11:56:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> once tried to test me with:

> But you were talking about self-publishing in the absence of funding
> from a big publisher. Are all those 'on-board' RPG players going to pay
> in advance of development?

Well no, of course not. That's the rub. You've got to come up with the
startup money. This is a bar to entry in the field, but I'm not sure that's
a bad thing.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 11:59:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"shadows" <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd23ooh.4nk.shadows@helena.whitefang.com...
> On 2005-02-27, Jonah Falcon <jonahnynla@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> "ChoyKw" <newsreader@newsgroup.com> wrote in message
>> news:421ff04f$1_2@news.tm.net.my...
>>> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7029
>>>
>>> hopefully this will be a lesson to all game studios - don't push out
>>> buggy
>>> products.
>>
>> Looking Glass was demolished. Had nothing to do with bugs. Bugs don't end
>> development groups -- poor sales do.
>>
>> Besides, developers are like rock bands. They break up, and the talent
>> goes
>> off and forms new bands.
>
> Like Troika? Good art talent that was splintered from the good
> programmers and project managers. Lotta good it did us customers.

You need that one leader with a vision. See: Sid Meier, Warren Spector, etc,
etc. A leaderless group tends to be distracted and scattershot. There has to
be that one driving force that gives a group a direction and someplace to
go.

Jonah Falcon
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 12:03:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> once tried to test me with:

>> A lot of people ARE downloading KOTOR2 actually. They just aren't
>> giving any money for it.
>
> I don't want to turn this into a discussion on piracy, but you do
> realize those people downloading were never potential sales in
> the first place. A very small fraction of people will pirate to
> save money and they quickly realize it's not saving them much
> after all the hassles they go through.

My point is that the demand for downloadable games exists, and there are a
lot of people with the right "stuff" to download full size games without a
problem. The only trick is getting them to pay for it.

And most people honestly do not mind paying for something they enjoy. They
don't want to get ripped off, but they (assuming they have money to begin
with, and if not they're not target market anyway) will gladly send someone
money for games they actually play.

Valve is betting they will. And Stardock. It's just a matter of time before
this is commonplace.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
February 28, 2005 12:03:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

> Valve is betting they will. And Stardock. It's just a matter of time before
> this is commonplace.

Stardock isn't going to make a KOTOR3. In fact Stardock probably
can't fit the art assets necessary for a modern CRPG into a
download. We'll assume it's anywhere from 2 to 4 gigs of data.

Valve on the other hand has a HUGE customer base where they can
pay huge sums of money to rent out big pipes and make a profit
because they know the demand is there. All-you-can-eat bandwidth
pipes exist but they tend to be expensive.
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 12:03:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>Stardock isn't going to make a KOTOR3. In fact Stardock probably
>can't fit the art assets necessary for a modern CRPG into a
>download.

It's a mistake to analyze a dynamic situation from a static
perspective. Stardock will go where the bandwidth (and business
model) allows them. Today, tomorrow, the next.

C//
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 12:06:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com> once tried to test me with:

> Knight37 wrote:
>>> Under that kind of thinking employees getting paid to sit around
>>> doing nothing is better than having them add to the number of hours
>>> a project takes.
>>
>> BOGGLE. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen in a company as
>> small as Troika.
>
> Heh, you wouldn't think so, but it all depends on the mentality and
> background of the BIC--beancounters in charge. I've seen some pretty
> amazing things, that until I got out of the construction industry
> weren't even aware existed.

In Troika's case the BIC's were game developers from Interplay who took a
chance on creating their own startup.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 12:10:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gabriele Neukam <Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de> once tried to
test me with:

> On that special day, Knight37, (knight37m@email.com) said...
>
>> And other than "B", there's no "mass" appeal there. It's just a bunch
>> of niches. And "F", but they only buy from Blizzard so it doesn't
>> really help anyone else.
>
> Heh, there are hybroids there, too. Like me, who plays Diablo2 and MM9
> side by side (not exactly at the same moments, though)

Sure, most people in live are members of more than one niche. :) 

> IMHO you left out two more categories of minorities
>
> g) the puzzle solvers, who do Myst and Sherlock Holmes
> h) the "humorous" game players, which might play a Laffer game, but
> the German variation is worse. They don't play adventures, they play
> reaction games with adult content, like sven bomwollen or puller
> alarm.

Talk about niche.

I also left out the near extinct I) Flight stick Jock.

> In these games, you can do the things you'd never dare to in real
> life, like hit your boss over the head. Maybe these can be categorized
> as stress relief games; but this is a quite euphemistic description.

Doesn't sound interesting to me. Guess I'm not in that niche.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 12:12:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> once tried to test me
with:

> If you want really bad stuff, japanese hentai games are probably hard
> to beat, except with a really big stick.

Yah, those are for sick little monkeys.

I've noticed that a lot of the "sick little monkey" stuff seems to come
from Japan for some reason. Of course they probably think some of our
subculture is pretty sick too (actually so do I).

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
February 28, 2005 12:12:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-02-27, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:
> Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> once tried to test me
> with:
>
>> If you want really bad stuff, japanese hentai games are probably hard
>> to beat, except with a really big stick.
>
> Yah, those are for sick little monkeys.
>
> I've noticed that a lot of the "sick little monkey" stuff seems to come
> from Japan for some reason. Of course they probably think some of our
> subculture is pretty sick too (actually so do I).

They're not sick.

The Japanese game developers just get away with murder when
you're playing a game like "Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty." I
didn't know *what* to think when your dispatcher has a nervous
breakdown and spills the beans on being molested by his mom. That
just blew me away. A non sequitor that was stupid, and quite
demented.

Or how about one of the Resident Evil games where you find out in
the end the bad guy is some transvestite. It never makes any
sense to the plot and always seems to be there for gratutious
shock value.
!