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WoW - biggest flaw

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March 5, 2005 11:57:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes. I
started on a new server because the game has been out months and I
wanted to start on a level playing field. I don't know why 10% of game
players wanted to be so much higher in level than everyone else... I
don't know why 10% of game players want to hit the end of an online
game in 3 days... I don't know why, and I don't care why. What I care
about is that Blizzard hasn't fixed whatever flaw in game mechanics
allows people to level THAT fast... I understand they cannot take away
levels from people on existing servers, but why open up new servers
with such an obvious problem?

It *is* a small percentage of people. I'd just suggest that they
automatically log people who are 3 times or more the average server
level into an instance of uberness so that they could play their game
and the rest of us could play ours. But I guess that would be
discrimination. In any case, it's a damned shame that Blizzard has
shipped a game that has potential to be pretty good, with such massive
flaws in it. I know how these guys are hitting high levels so fast,
I've seen them doing it, and it's pretty obvious. Anybody could do it,
you don't have to be uber. You just have to care more about making
levels than playing the game as it was meant to be played. A game with
such huge exp rewards for quests (I sometimes get half a level of exp
for a quest that takes 10 minutes, solo) and that allows people to
"share" quests with eachother, and then gives everyone the reward for
quests that were designed as a solo challenge, is just asking to be
exploited. I know it wasn't *meant* to be exploited, it was *meant* to
encourage group play and questing, but what it IS, is an
auto-levelling machine. Net effect is that people are getting
experience about 5 to 10 times faster than they should be, and since
quest exp rewards are based on the quest level, it never stops. It
never slows down.

Damn. Blizzard just wrote a new book on bad design. Really. Bad. The
levelling in EQ2 was too fast, but at least everyone had to go through
teh same things to get ahead. The fastest people were *maybe* twice as
fast as the slowest, and the quest rewards were MUCH smaller. And I
thought people hitting 30 in a few weeks was bad in EQ2. I thought 30
should be a few MONTHS, like it was when Everquest was a new game. It
takes 1 day to hit 30 in WoW, on a brand new server.

This is an un-fixable problem. Of course, some people will not view it
as a problem, but rather as a feature. And that's the group of people
who will be griefing eachother and anyone else who logs in, 6 months
from now. Because what else can they do, after 6 months, when they hit
the end game in 3 days?

More about : wow biggest flaw

Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 6:14:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thrasher <spectre911@hotmail.com> once tried to test me with:

> I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
> me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
> who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes. I
> started on a new server because the game has been out months and I
> wanted to start on a level playing field. I don't know why 10% of game
> players wanted to be so much higher in level than everyone else... I
> don't know why 10% of game players want to hit the end of an online
> game in 3 days... I don't know why, and I don't care why. What I care
> about is that Blizzard hasn't fixed whatever flaw in game mechanics
> allows people to level THAT fast... I understand they cannot take away
> levels from people on existing servers, but why open up new servers
> with such an obvious problem?

What's the big deal? So there's a few idiots who blow through the game as
fast as possible, how does that affect you?

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 12:58:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 6 Mar 2005 03:14:52 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

>
>What's the big deal? So there's a few idiots who blow through the game as
>fast as possible, how does that affect you?

I've never understood this attitude from players - it's like they get
offended at someone else doing things faster than them, as if they're
personally affected by it.

--

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
And what's with all the carrots ?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
Bunnies ! Bunnies ! It must be BUNNIES !
Related resources
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 1:03:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thrasher wrote:
> This is an un-fixable problem. Of course, some people will not view it
> as a problem, but rather as a feature. And that's the group of people
> who will be griefing eachother and anyone else who logs in, 6 months
> from now. Because what else can they do, after 6 months, when they hit
> the end game in 3 days?

This is pretty much exactly why I quit playing. If the munchkins either
wouldn't or couldn't grief, WoW would be a great game for a most everybody
else. And even though it's only a very small percentage of people doing
this stuff, it only takes a very small percentage to ruin the game for a lot
of other people.

K37 says by quitting I let the griefers win, but he's wrong. It's Blizzard
who let the griefers win. Of course with their D/D2 track record, that
shouldn't be much of a surprise.
--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 1:13:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Knight37 wrote:
> What's the big deal? So there's a few idiots who blow through the
> game as fast as possible, how does that affect you?

Oh, come on. It affects, or will affect him the same way it did me.

--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 1:46:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thrasher wrote:
> I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
> me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
> who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.

*boggle*

I was around level 12 after four days of spending a reasonable amount of
time playing - a few hours a day.

I wonder how many hours per day the people who hit max level in four
days put in. I started when the game was first released, and my main is
up to 40.

The number of max-level people doesn't really bother me that much,
though. I toddle along at my own pace, group with my friends when
they're on, and have a good time.

Cheers,
Grant
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 1:46:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Grant Anderson wrote:
> Thrasher wrote:
>> I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
>> me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
>> who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.
>
> *boggle*
>
> I was around level 12 after four days of spending a reasonable amount of
> time playing - a few hours a day.
>
> I wonder how many hours per day the people who hit max level in four
> days put in. I started when the game was first released, and my main is
> up to 40.

I shudder to think what speed people are levelling at on Thrasher's
server. If you've played through all the content several times already
(as many people obviously have, between Beta and Release); and you
create a character on one of the new servers they just opened up with
the express intent of being the first to uber-hood there; and you have a
few fellows sharing that goal; and Thottbot handy to refresh your memory
- well, you're going level orders of magnitude faster than the first-timers.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 1:46:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:46:10 +1300, Grant Anderson
<gpsanderson@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Thrasher wrote:
>> I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
>> me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
>> who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.
>
>*boggle*
>
>I was around level 12 after four days of spending a reasonable amount of
>time playing - a few hours a day.
>

Those like Thrash neither have a job(probably) nor a life (away from
the computer). Fortunately that does not represent the majority of
MMORPG players, who are far more like you. So, as long as Blizzard
ensures that the normal game-player is minimally inconvenienced
by these dudes, all is fine. The game is there for all normal players
to enjoy the environment, questing etc, not as a level-up
pi**ing-match, followed by the expected level-up complaints
from the same marginal few.

>I wonder how many hours per day the people who hit max level in four
>days put in. I started when the game was first released, and my main is
>up to 40.
>
>The number of max-level people doesn't really bother me that much,
>though. I toddle along at my own pace, group with my friends when
>they're on, and have a good time.

Sure, of course. On-line RPG/adventuring games are essentially a
social pursuit... anybody that plays them exclusively macho-style is
missing the whole rationale. My sons play both AC1 and Wow with their
friends and have a great time. Sure they level-up periodically, but
the questing, battles and the social interaction is where they have
most fun.

John Lewis

>
>Cheers,
>Grant
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 1:46:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

John Lewis wrote:
> Those like Thrash neither have a job(probably) nor a life (away from
> the computer). Fortunately that does not represent the majority of
> MMORPG players, who are far more like you. So, as long as Blizzard
> ensures that the normal game-player is minimally inconvenienced
> by these dudes, all is fine. The game is there for all normal players
> to enjoy the environment, questing etc, not as a level-up
> pi**ing-match, followed by the expected level-up complaints
> from the same marginal few.
>

The problem is that so far at least, Blizzard is *not* ensuring the normal
game player is inconvenienced by these dudes. You'll notice I didn't quote
your "mimimally", because in my book the only acceptable minimum is "zero".
--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 1:58:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thrasher <spectre911@hotmail.com> writes:

> I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
> me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
> who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.

Basing the impressions of a game on powerlevelers is like reading a
review of a movie written by someone who fast-forwarded through it.
These players have min-maxed exp gain - probably by hunting and
farming - and haven't done quests, explored the lands etc.

It's not the game's fault that some players don't want to be
entertained by the content but play just to watch the precious numbers
go up.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 4:18:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I think...

People who leveled as fast as you claim actually know the content of the
game. They already have a level 60 on their initial server. They know what
to do and how to get there fast. And the reason why they move is probably
to start a guild of their own. It is hard to start an elite group to
compete with other elite guilds on the server. Unless you're guild is there
first. Many of the top guilds on the server has seniority.

Disclaimer: This is just my speculation.


"Thrasher" <spectre911@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:js5k21p21r04k405k0nol632pela86eqgs@4ax.com...
> I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
> me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
> who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes. I
> started on a new server because the game has been out months and I
> wanted to start on a level playing field. I don't know why 10% of game
> players wanted to be so much higher in level than everyone else... I
> don't know why 10% of game players want to hit the end of an online
> game in 3 days... I don't know why, and I don't care why. What I care
> about is that Blizzard hasn't fixed whatever flaw in game mechanics
> allows people to level THAT fast... I understand they cannot take away
> levels from people on existing servers, but why open up new servers
> with such an obvious problem?
>
> It *is* a small percentage of people. I'd just suggest that they
> automatically log people who are 3 times or more the average server
> level into an instance of uberness so that they could play their game
> and the rest of us could play ours. But I guess that would be
> discrimination. In any case, it's a damned shame that Blizzard has
> shipped a game that has potential to be pretty good, with such massive
> flaws in it. I know how these guys are hitting high levels so fast,
> I've seen them doing it, and it's pretty obvious. Anybody could do it,
> you don't have to be uber. You just have to care more about making
> levels than playing the game as it was meant to be played. A game with
> such huge exp rewards for quests (I sometimes get half a level of exp
> for a quest that takes 10 minutes, solo) and that allows people to
> "share" quests with eachother, and then gives everyone the reward for
> quests that were designed as a solo challenge, is just asking to be
> exploited. I know it wasn't *meant* to be exploited, it was *meant* to
> encourage group play and questing, but what it IS, is an
> auto-levelling machine. Net effect is that people are getting
> experience about 5 to 10 times faster than they should be, and since
> quest exp rewards are based on the quest level, it never stops. It
> never slows down.
>
> Damn. Blizzard just wrote a new book on bad design. Really. Bad. The
> levelling in EQ2 was too fast, but at least everyone had to go through
> teh same things to get ahead. The fastest people were *maybe* twice as
> fast as the slowest, and the quest rewards were MUCH smaller. And I
> thought people hitting 30 in a few weeks was bad in EQ2. I thought 30
> should be a few MONTHS, like it was when Everquest was a new game. It
> takes 1 day to hit 30 in WoW, on a brand new server.
>
> This is an un-fixable problem. Of course, some people will not view it
> as a problem, but rather as a feature. And that's the group of people
> who will be griefing eachother and anyone else who logs in, 6 months
> from now. Because what else can they do, after 6 months, when they hit
> the end game in 3 days?
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 5:47:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly Mark Morrison <drdpikeuk@aol.com> Spake Unto All:

>>What's the big deal? So there's a few idiots who blow through the game as
>>fast as possible, how does that affect you?
>
>I've never understood this attitude from players - it's like they get
>offended at someone else doing things faster than them, as if they're
>personally affected by it.

He _IS_ on a PvP server you know.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 5:47:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly Thrasher <spectre911@hotmail.com> Spake Unto All:

>I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
>me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
>who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.
---
>A game with
>such huge exp rewards for quests (I sometimes get half a level of exp
>for a quest that takes 10 minutes, solo) and that allows people to
>"share" quests with eachother, and then gives everyone the reward for
>quests that were designed as a solo challenge, is just asking to be
>exploited.

Is it really possible to reach lvl 60 in three days by grouping and
running quests?!

If so, I agree with Thrasher that that is amazingly bad game design.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 5:47:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly Mark Morrison <drdpikeuk@aol.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>> What's the big deal? So there's a few idiots who blow through the
>>> game as fast as possible, how does that affect you?
>>
>> I've never understood this attitude from players - it's like they get
>> offended at someone else doing things faster than them, as if they're
>> personally affected by it.
>
> He _IS_ on a PvP server you know.

With what Thrash is talking about, it doesn't much matter what kind of
server you're on. Griefers will grief, and WoW's game design sets up a
hotbed for it.

--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 5:47:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Is it really possible to reach lvl 60 in three days by grouping and
> running quests?!
>
> If so, I agree with Thrasher that that is amazingly bad game design.

I'd say that it's probably pretty close to the mark. I wouldn't have
believed it until I started playing myself, but game map/quest familiarity
gives a player a tremendous leg up. Quest rewards/exp are so great that
about all you have to do is hit the big payoffs efficiently, then watch the
levels rack up.

--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 5:47:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:o 12m21ha0pvubfi3bpuc7023hnjvkoq6v4@4ax.com...
> Thusly Thrasher <spectre911@hotmail.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>
> Is it really possible to reach lvl 60 in three days by grouping and
> running quests?!
>
> If so, I agree with Thrasher that that is amazingly bad game design.
>

Don't ever, ever, EVER, agree with Thrasher. That said, he's hardly an
authority on a game he just discovered. The rest of us, who have been
playing since day one, would all agree that 60 level in three days is
absurd.

The record I believe is lvl 60 in 10 days, but likely required 24hrs/day of
shift-work questing. Cut that down to a full time job of 8hrs/day, and you
will need about a month; that's excluding any and all fun things, like
interacting with fellow players.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 6:10:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:47:29 +0100, Mean_Chlorine
<mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Thusly Mark Morrison <drdpikeuk@aol.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>>What's the big deal? So there's a few idiots who blow through the game as
>>>fast as possible, how does that affect you?
>>
>>I've never understood this attitude from players - it's like they get
>>offended at someone else doing things faster than them, as if they're
>>personally affected by it.
>
>He _IS_ on a PvP server you know.

Then he REALLY can't complain, IMO.

--

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
And what's with all the carrots ?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
Bunnies ! Bunnies ! It must be BUNNIES !
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 6:31:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"John Lewis" <john.dsl@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:422a9c31.40920131@news.verizon.net...

> Sure, of course. On-line RPG/adventuring games are essentially a
> social pursuit... anybody that plays them exclusively macho-style is
> missing the whole rationale. My sons play both AC1 and Wow with their
> friends and have a great time. Sure they level-up periodically, but
> the questing, battles and the social interaction is where they have
> most fun.

Just curious John. You say your sons play AC1 and WoW, two very
"life-stealing" games if ever I saw one. Do you limit their time playing
these online games? Or do you think that those social interactions you
mentioned are going to be enough for your sons in the real world?

Please don't interpret that as a dig or anything by the way! I apologise if
it came across like one. The reason I asked is while eating breakfast my
girlfriend pointed out an add from the dating section of the paper, and I
wanted to share it and get other gamers opinions. A 18yo boy was looking for
friends, his interests included: playing computer games. I laughed, and then
felt sorry for the kid. Too many young guys today {im only 26 mind you, so
I'm talking about teens and pre-teen :) } are living their lives online,
their social interaction being limited to IRC, MSN, and the latest MMORPG.
GenX is currently nurturing a generation of socially retarded adults who may
have difficulty interacting with todays society. Does that worry anyone? Or
are we all content in knowing that its natures way of slowing population
growth?

Ceo-
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 6, 2005 6:34:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:D 0f6qp02fli@news1.newsguy.com...
> Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>> Thusly Mark Morrison <drdpikeuk@aol.com> Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>> What's the big deal? So there's a few idiots who blow through the
>>>> game as fast as possible, how does that affect you?
>>>
>>> I've never understood this attitude from players - it's like they get
>>> offended at someone else doing things faster than them, as if they're
>>> personally affected by it.
>>
>> He _IS_ on a PvP server you know.
>
> With what Thrash is talking about, it doesn't much matter what kind of
> server you're on. Griefers will grief, and WoW's game design sets up a
> hotbed for it.
>

There is nothing to be gained from griefing, and nothing lost, except for
the 1-2 minutes it takes you to run back to your corpse from the nearest
gravesite, of which there are many. Even the armour damage is negligible.
The griefer gets no gains at all, no xp, no loot, no verbal reaction or
trash talk from his victim (since you can't communicate between
alliance/horde). WoW has the best anti-griefing design of any pvp game. I
would go in the other direction and say that the PvP is actually a joke,
since you gain/lose nothing from it, except 2 minutes of inconvenience.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 12:37:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Grackle wrote:
> communicate between alliance/horde). WoW has the best anti-griefing
> design of any pvp game. I would go in the other direction and say
> that the PvP is actually a joke, since you gain/lose nothing from it,
> except 2 minutes of inconvenience.

I don't know why the mindset seems to be that griefing is synonymous with
pk'ing. High level griefers can make life plenty miserable for others
without ever popping the first cap on them.
--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 11:28:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
> It's not the game's fault that some players don't want to be
> entertained by the content but play just to watch the precious numbers
> go up.

I'm pretty sure you'll find that anyone who has made it to 60 in three
days on a new server has already been entertained by the content several
times over in the course of the last 5+ months.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 6:40:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:D 0gepk02j8e@news3.newsguy.com...
> Grackle wrote:
>> communicate between alliance/horde). WoW has the best anti-griefing
>> design of any pvp game. I would go in the other direction and say
>> that the PvP is actually a joke, since you gain/lose nothing from it,
>> except 2 minutes of inconvenience.
>
> I don't know why the mindset seems to be that griefing is synonymous with
> pk'ing. High level griefers can make life plenty miserable for others
> without ever popping the first cap on them.

As for me, I'm wondering why some people (including Blizzard, if some of the
secondhand postings here are accurate) think that people need to gain
something from griefing in order to grief.

Griefing is its own reward.

Although Grackle's description gives me the impression that there's no sense
at all in engaging in any PvP ingame, even in the Blizzard-approved manner,
because, as he notes, there's nothing the winner will gain, and there's
nothing the loser will lose from it. Sounds like any point to be made by
killing your enemies would be lost because your enemies won't actually
suffer from it.

C
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 8:56:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Thrasher" <spectre911@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:js5k21p21r04k405k0nol632pela86eqgs@4ax.com...

> Damn. Blizzard just wrote a new book on bad design. Really. Bad. The
> levelling in EQ2 was too fast, but at least everyone had to go through
> teh same things to get ahead. The fastest people were *maybe* twice as
> fast as the slowest, and the quest rewards were MUCH smaller. And I
> thought people hitting 30 in a few weeks was bad in EQ2. I thought 30
> should be a few MONTHS, like it was when Everquest was a new game. It
> takes 1 day to hit 30 in WoW, on a brand new server.

I agree with your general sentiment about the ease of leveling in WoW but I
don't think I share your characterization of the EQ or EQ2 experience. They
were tougher, but devs ALWAYS underestimate the determinaion of those who
will power level their way to the top. In general, you're right, EQ was much
harder, with the tough experience loss hits you faced, the hell levels, and
the rigidly enforced grouping requirements. Still, the first guy to 50 did
it in a couple of months (Kalaran, Rogue in May of 1999). I've been playing
since release (November 9, 2004) and I'm just now breaking 40 in EQ2.

--
Redbeard, the Treasure Hunter
<Veritas>
Dwarven Mystic and Alchemist
Loyal Citizen of the Antonia Bayle
Current resident of the Willow Wood, City of Qeynos
http://veritas.everquest2guilds.com

Descendant of the Elder Winterfury Thunderwolf
<Resolution, Retired>
Barbarian Prophet of The Tribunal
Retired Citizen of Firiona Vie
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 10:39:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:31:26 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
wrote:

>"John Lewis" <john.dsl@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:422a9c31.40920131@news.verizon.net...
>
>> Sure, of course. On-line RPG/adventuring games are essentially a
>> social pursuit... anybody that plays them exclusively macho-style is
>> missing the whole rationale. My sons play both AC1 and Wow with their
>> friends and have a great time. Sure they level-up periodically, but
>> the questing, battles and the social interaction is where they have
>> most fun.
>
>Just curious John. You say your sons play AC1 and WoW, two very
>"life-stealing" games if ever I saw one. Do you limit their time playing
>these online games? Or do you think that those social interactions you
>mentioned are going to be enough for your sons in the real world?
>

Nope.

On-line game-play has to be time limited. Highly addictive otherwise.
Too long continuously-on produces distinct anti-social behavior in the
real world. Addiction withdrawal symptoms... It WILL adversely affect
school grades if not controlled, preferably by instilling
self-discipline in the player.. but many teenagers that enjoy
on-line play are not that way inclined... so the parent(s) HAVE
to be involved in ensuring that balance is maintained.

However, both of my sons have developed accurate multi-fingered
speed-typing skills (without any Mavis Beacon...) which is essential
in today's work-world for many jobs, ( and in college ) so the
experience is not totally negative. Also, in our case, on-line play
frequently includes real-life friends - for instance our two sons
frequenly play as a team and include other school-friends, if they
are on-line.


>Please don't interpret that as a dig or anything by the way! I apologise if
>it came across like one. The reason I asked is while eating breakfast my
>girlfriend pointed out an add from the dating section of the paper, and I
>wanted to share it and get other gamers opinions. A 18yo boy was looking for
>friends, his interests included: playing computer games. I laughed, and then
>felt sorry for the kid. Too many young guys today {im only 26 mind you, so
>I'm talking about teens and pre-teen :) } are living their lives online,
>their social interaction being limited to IRC, MSN, and the latest MMORPG.
>GenX is currently nurturing a generation of socially retarded adults who may
>have difficulty interacting with todays society. Does that worry anyone? Or
>are we all content in knowing that its natures way of slowing population
>growth?
>

Excellent observations.
It will be interesting to see other responses.

John Lewis

>Ceo-
>
>
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 10:39:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>
>
>>"John Lewis" <john.dsl@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>news:422a9c31.40920131@news.verizon.net...
>>Please don't interpret that as a dig or anything by the way! I apologise if
>>it came across like one. The reason I asked is while eating breakfast my
>>girlfriend pointed out an add from the dating section of the paper, and I
>>wanted to share it and get other gamers opinions. A 18yo boy was looking for
>>friends, his interests included: playing computer games. I laughed, and then
>>felt sorry for the kid. Too many young guys today {im only 26 mind you, so
>>I'm talking about teens and pre-teen :) } are living their lives online,
>>their social interaction being limited to IRC, MSN, and the latest MMORPG.
>>GenX is currently nurturing a generation of socially retarded adults who may
>>have difficulty interacting with todays society. Does that worry anyone? Or
>>are we all content in knowing that its natures way of slowing population
>>growth?
>>
>

I'm not worried at all.

According to educational theory, you should learn certain skills by a
certain age. In practice, you learn what you need when you need it. You
are right. These kids aren't learning the socials skill that they will
need. When the time comes and they NEED these skills, most will learn
them. Some won't. That's no worse than life outside of computers, where
some kids really learn their social skills, while others don't.

In fact, I find that the kids today have better social skill then when I
was in school. I am envious at how well spoke, social, and gifted most
of them are.

CH
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 11:11:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:46:10 +1300, Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Thrasher wrote:
>> I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
>> me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
>> who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.
>
>*boggle*
>
>I was around level 12 after four days of spending a reasonable amount of
>time playing - a few hours a day.
>
>I wonder how many hours per day the people who hit max level in four
>days put in. I started when the game was first released, and my main is
>up to 40.
>
>The number of max-level people doesn't really bother me that much,
>though. I toddle along at my own pace, group with my friends when
>they're on, and have a good time.

No matter where you go and what you do, there is always going to be a group of
people trying to prove their dick is bigger than yours. Lump these people in
with the same people who buy car stereos that can shatter ear drums half a
mile away or have really massive rear spoilers for some insane reason.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 7, 2005 11:11:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Memnoch wrote:

> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:46:10 +1300, Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Thrasher wrote:
>>
>>>I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
>>>me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
>>>who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.
>>
>>*boggle*
>>
>>I was around level 12 after four days of spending a reasonable amount of
>>time playing - a few hours a day.
>>
>>I wonder how many hours per day the people who hit max level in four
>>days put in. I started when the game was first released, and my main is
>>up to 40.
>>
>>The number of max-level people doesn't really bother me that much,
>>though. I toddle along at my own pace, group with my friends when
>>they're on, and have a good time.
>
>
> No matter where you go and what you do, there is always going to be a group of
> people trying to prove their dick is bigger than yours. Lump these people in
> with the same people who buy car stereos that can shatter ear drums half a
> mile away or have really massive rear spoilers for some insane reason.

These are the same people who say "There no content!!! Once you hit the
level limit, the game's over!!!" Yeah, if you blow through the game at
max speed, of course the game will seem short.

CH
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 8, 2005 7:09:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Ceowulf wrote:
> GenX is currently nurturing a generation of socially retarded adults
who may
> have difficulty interacting with todays society.

Yeah, because no-one playing online games has any 'social skills',
obviously.

Thanks to the Internet I've travelled all over the world and spent time
with numerous interesting people that I'd never have met otherwise, and
I've found all my girlfriends for years online. As for games, my guild
in EQ1 is run by women and about half the guild is female... so if I
was looking for a girlfriend into computer games it probably wouldn't
be hard to find one there.

But I'm sure you're right and my time would have been better spent
learning 'social skills' down the pub.

> Does that worry anyone?

Only that so many people think that computers and 'social skills' are
mutually exclusive... or that 'social skills' are particularly
important or hard to learn. It's hardly rocket science.

Mark
March 8, 2005 8:48:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:56:01 -0800, "Bob Perez"
<myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote:

>I agree with your general sentiment about the ease of leveling in WoW but I
>don't think I share your characterization of the EQ or EQ2 experience. They
>were tougher, but devs ALWAYS underestimate the determinaion of those who
>will power level their way to the top. In general, you're right, EQ was much
>harder, with the tough experience loss hits you faced, the hell levels, and
>the rigidly enforced grouping requirements.

>Still, the first guy to 50 did it in a couple of months (Kalaran, Rogue in May of 1999)

Well... the first level 50 on Rodcet Nife was in... August I
believe... and at that time I was level 30ish, after 4 months of play.
When the Plane of Hate opened on Holloween of 1999, there were only a
small number of people high enough (level 46) to zone in. By a small
number, I mean < 10% of the server population. I was only mid-30s
then, because I took a break from EQ during spetember and october. If
I hadn't taken that break, I might have been high enough to zone into
PoH on opening day.

Incidentally, a lot of EQ players have faulty recollections of how
easy the levelling was, when the game was new. Their recollections are
faulty because they don't actually have any. The majority of EQ
players are unaware that there was ever a level 50 cap for the first
year the game was out, for instance... something it would be
impossible to be "unaware" of if you were playing the game.

I like the WOW method: no experince loss, spirit form til you retrive
your body. Maybe death is too painless, but corpse recovery in
Everquest could really be a pain in the ass. Come to think of it,
though, my best memories of Everquest were doing tough CRs... people
really pull together when they are worried they might lose all their
stuff. In any case, I like the WoW system... I just don't like it
being so fast. I'm goofing off and doing a lot of PvP and exploring,
and I hit 20 allready. It just doesn't seem right. Also, most the
people I meet don't have a clue how to play their character well. Come
to think of it, neither do I :D 

> I've been playing since release (November 9, 2004) and I'm just now breaking 40 in EQ2.

I left the game in December with a 28 Assassin. I was near, but not
at, the front of the pack on my server. Most people were 20ish around
then, the highest were mid 30s. That seemed fast to me, but at least
people were progressing at a reasonable pace relative to eachother.
The people who were getting higher levels first, got there by working
harder. They weren't playing the game differently than everyone else,
they were putting more time and energy into the same things everyone
else was doing. That's the way tehse games should be. I hate to see
this stuff in WoW where people can powerlevel eachother just by
abusing the quest system.

Incidentally, ran into my first cheater in duels yesterday. Gnome Mage
challenged me to a duel, turned me into a sheep, somehow climbed on
top of a wagon that was conveniently placed right there, and then
nuked me to death while I was trying to find a way to get to him. I
asked him for a rematch without him climbing up onto the wagon and he
said "nah, that's my best tactic..."

Well, my best tactic is sneaking up behind him while he's AFK and
ganking his ass, too bad we're on the same team. He spent a lot of
time on that tactic, too. Even after the duel was over, I couldn't
find a way up on top of that wagon.

I could easily pass on the whole duel thing, but the faction PvP is
really fun. I may abuse the quest system myself just to get high
enough level to participate more in the PvP. 20 is too low... I've
only found a few fights that I was appropriate level to take part in.
40ish seems about right.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 8, 2005 11:18:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Charles Whitney" <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:393si2F5ui837U1@individual.net...
> "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:D 0gepk02j8e@news3.newsguy.com...
>> Grackle wrote:
>>> communicate between alliance/horde). WoW has the best anti-griefing
>>> design of any pvp game. I would go in the other direction and say
>>> that the PvP is actually a joke, since you gain/lose nothing from it,
>>> except 2 minutes of inconvenience.
>>
>> I don't know why the mindset seems to be that griefing is synonymous with
>> pk'ing. High level griefers can make life plenty miserable for others
>> without ever popping the first cap on them.
>
> As for me, I'm wondering why some people (including Blizzard, if some of
> the secondhand postings here are accurate) think that people need to gain
> something from griefing in order to grief.
>
> Griefing is its own reward.
>
> Although Grackle's description gives me the impression that there's no
> sense at all in engaging in any PvP ingame, even in the Blizzard-approved
> manner, because, as he notes, there's nothing the winner will gain, and
> there's nothing the loser will lose from it. Sounds like any point to be
> made by killing your enemies would be lost because your enemies won't
> actually suffer from it.
>
> C

I think there are only two instances of true satisfaction you can get from
PvP. The first is to defeat someone a few levels above you who attacked you
without provocation. You get to stand above their corpse and spit and laugh
at their foolishness. The second is when you come across an enemy deep in
the forest who is many levels beneath you and decide to spare his wretched
life. This makes you feel almost god-like, wielding the power of life and
death. You know that your generosity will become legendary amongst your
enemies' people. Other than that, PvP is pointless, even raids are
pointless, since you get recycled and run back to the battle in minutes. I
wish WoW had some real PvP servers to choose from, where at the very least
corpses could be looted.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 9, 2005 12:33:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:34:31 -0500, Clawhound <none@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Memnoch wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:46:10 +1300, Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Thrasher wrote:
>>>
>>>>I think this is self evident, but what is about to kill the game for
>>>>me is that fact that there are about 30 people on a 4 day old server
>>>>who have hit the level cap, and more hit the cap every few minutes.
>>>
>>>*boggle*
>>>
>>>I was around level 12 after four days of spending a reasonable amount of
>>>time playing - a few hours a day.
>>>
>>>I wonder how many hours per day the people who hit max level in four
>>>days put in. I started when the game was first released, and my main is
>>>up to 40.
>>>
>>>The number of max-level people doesn't really bother me that much,
>>>though. I toddle along at my own pace, group with my friends when
>>>they're on, and have a good time.
>>
>>
>> No matter where you go and what you do, there is always going to be a group of
>> people trying to prove their dick is bigger than yours. Lump these people in
>> with the same people who buy car stereos that can shatter ear drums half a
>> mile away or have really massive rear spoilers for some insane reason.
>
>These are the same people who say "There no content!!! Once you hit the
>level limit, the game's over!!!" Yeah, if you blow through the game at
>max speed, of course the game will seem short.

Of course and I pity them for these seeming need to complete the game as soon
as possible. I mean really, it's one thing to do it on a single player game
but to do it on a game where there is a monthly fee and the only real
incentive to come back is the levelling treadmill and to see what is around
the next corner, not matter how the company tries to dress it up, is just
masochistic.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 9, 2005 8:54:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

<mmaker@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1110283772.868595.163140@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Ceowulf wrote:
>> GenX is currently nurturing a generation of socially retarded adults
> who may
>> have difficulty interacting with todays society.
>
> Yeah, because no-one playing online games has any 'social skills',
> obviously.

Haha well fair enough. Lets use this scenario as an example. Young boy, lets
say 8 years of age. He gets a computer, plays games, becomes enamoured with
them, gets an internet connection, naturally moves onto MMORPG's and has
parents who themselves play games a great deal, so therefore will not limit
their sons "addiction". Young boy loses interest in sports, running about,
playing doctors and nurses, and so on. Afterall why wouldnt he? Computer
games are a hell of a lot more interesting than the real world and require
less effort and discomfort.

Advance 8 years. That boy is 16, he's been playing his games, joined a long
term guild in which he has made _heaps_ of online friends. He has become
very internet savy, a real expert who mocks those who dont have his level of
skill. Regardless of this do you think someone who has spent 5+ hours a day
{being generous here} on the computer all his life, is going to be going out
and socialising with other teens via playing sport etc? Do you think he is
going to be bothered going to birthday parties where he might get his first
chance at beer and girls? Or would he instead opt to stay at home, log in,
be comfortable, have a can of coke and some chips, and chat to his online
buddies while smacking a foozle?

How does someone like that, deal with a social world in which people must
interact with each other without a keyboard?

> Thanks to the Internet I've travelled all over the world and spent time
> with numerous interesting people that I'd never have met otherwise, and
> I've found all my girlfriends for years online. As for games, my guild
> in EQ1 is run by women and about half the guild is female... so if I
> was looking for a girlfriend into computer games it probably wouldn't
> be hard to find one there.

Your a lucky person to have been able to travel the world thanks to the
Internet. Not everyone can afford to travel to meet their net buddies
halfway across the world. Your also a lucky guy to be in a guild with mostly
women! Maybe the world is changing enough now days that Internet romances
will become more and more common. Keep in mind however that the ratio of men
to women who take up this life style is pretty lopsided, so I wouldnt call
it an option for everyone ;) 

> But I'm sure you're right and my time would have been better spent
> learning 'social skills' down the pub.

Hahaha no, I didnt say that. That sort of life style isnt for everyone. I
guess I just think that there will be alot of lonely people out there. With
self confidence issues to boot, because they have never really been
indoctrinated into the social world {the one im talking about, not the one
you were :) }.

> Only that so many people think that computers and 'social skills' are
> mutually exclusive... or that 'social skills' are particularly
> important or hard to learn. It's hardly rocket science.

Virtual social skills, and Personal social skills. There is a different. And
yes they are often mutually exclusive, though not always and many people
have a great combination of both. Remember, saying "LOL" out loud in the
real world is only going to get you funny looks, I should know, I've done it
:) 

Hrmmm, maybe having a psychologist for a girlfriend and actually listening
to her is not such a good idea :p 

Ceo-
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 9, 2005 8:54:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet> wrote in message
news:422ec873$0$31467$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...

> Remember, saying "LOL" out loud in the real world is only going to get you
> funny looks

Isn't that annoying? I often find myself wanting to do this but I stop when
I realize it's just won't work. There really, really needs to be some kind
of vocal equivalent for this (and no, it isn't physically laughing out loud,
there's something much more subtle about this phrase).

--
Bob Perez

"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they
quit playing."
- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 11, 2005 12:15:21 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in message
news:112ukqcbjav9727@news.supernews.com...
>> Remember, saying "LOL" out loud in the real world is only going to get
>> you funny looks
>
> Isn't that annoying? I often find myself wanting to do this but I stop
> when I realize it's just won't work. There really, really needs to be some
> kind of vocal equivalent for this (and no, it isn't physically laughing
> out loud, there's something much more subtle about this phrase).

Yeah, laughing out loud is tiring, especially when its a _really_ good
laugh. :)  I guess they always did say the best things in life are bad for
you. :p 

Ceo-
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 12, 2005 6:23:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thrasher <spectre911@hotmail.com> once tried to test me with:

> I could easily pass on the whole duel thing, but the faction PvP is
> really fun. I may abuse the quest system myself just to get high
> enough level to participate more in the PvP. 20 is too low... I've
> only found a few fights that I was appropriate level to take part in.
> 40ish seems about right.

On my server you can get into PVPs and actually participate in a meaningful
way as early as level 25. You wouldn't be the "star player" but you can
definitely do your part to help the team. By the late 30's and you're a
significant boon to the team. I'm not in my 40's yet so can't say much past
that.

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 12, 2005 6:26:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> once tried to
test me with:

>
> "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet> wrote in message
> news:422ec873$0$31467$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>> Remember, saying "LOL" out loud in the real world is only going to
>> get you funny looks
>
> Isn't that annoying? I often find myself wanting to do this but I stop
> when I realize it's just won't work. There really, really needs to be
> some kind of vocal equivalent for this (and no, it isn't physically
> laughing out loud, there's something much more subtle about this
> phrase).

My RL friends, who also happen to be internet geeks, often pronounce this
as "LOLE" (rhymes with ROLL).




--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
March 27, 2005 3:20:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:15:21 +0800, "Ceowulf" <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet>
wrote:

>"Bob Perez" <myfirstname@thecomdomaincalledSHADOWPIKE> wrote in message
>news:112ukqcbjav9727@news.supernews.com...
>>> Remember, saying "LOL" out loud in the real world is only going to get
>>> you funny looks
>>
>> Isn't that annoying? I often find myself wanting to do this but I stop
>> when I realize it's just won't work. There really, really needs to be some
>> kind of vocal equivalent for this (and no, it isn't physically laughing
>> out loud, there's something much more subtle about this phrase).
>
>Yeah, laughing out loud is tiring, especially when its a _really_ good
>laugh. :)  I guess they always did say the best things in life are bad for
>you. :p 

It's one of the worst things that can happen to someone with broken
ribs. Especially if the other people on the course you're on know you
have broken ribs.

Think they spent their free time looking up and learning from joke
books.

The jokes were funny though :-)

Pete Lilleyman
alishas.dontspam.addict@blueyonder.co.getrid.uk
(please get rid of ".getrid" to reply direct)
(don't get rid of the dontspam though ;-)
!