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KOTOR2 review: WTF was this guy smoking?

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Anonymous
March 12, 2005 7:16:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Having recently finished KOTOR2 and summarized my views in this ng in
the "My take on KOTOR2" thread, I happened upon PCReviews 'review' of
this game (btw, this plonker's got some spoilers in the review, so if
you've not played the game, you may want to avoid reading it):

http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=23637

Now, I liked KOTOR2 but found it a clone of KOTOR and suffering from
severe developer's rush syndrome. Reading that exceedingly positive
review it's hard to believe this guy at all has played the same game.

I feel like when I read the reviews of Gothic2, but inverse - that was
a fantastic game that got panned for no good reason, this is an
excessively derivative, and -considering that it's little more than a
mission pack for a game released two years ago- mediocre, game which
gets raves for no good reason.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 7:16:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"We now come to my favorite aspect of KOTOR2: the writing. It's been a
long time since a game's dialogue didn't sound stilted and
heavy-handed. The epic struggles of the universe are told in a
cinematic, moving style. The interpersonal conflicts are brought out
through rich dialogue and well thought-out storytelling."

The writing in 2 is very different from 1 so while the interface and
engine are basically the same it's in my view a significantly different
game.
March 12, 2005 7:16:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-12, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I feel like when I read the reviews of Gothic2, but inverse - that was
> a fantastic game that got panned for no good reason, this is an
> excessively derivative, and -considering that it's little more than a
> mission pack for a game released two years ago- mediocre, game which
> gets raves for no good reason.

You're being silly. It's an entire story that didn't get resolved
completely but it's not a "mission pack." Really, you need to
clean your crack pipe.
Related resources
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 12:51:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "NFLed" <NFLed@aol.com> Spake Unto All:

>cinematic, moving style. The interpersonal conflicts are brought out
>through rich dialogue and well thought-out storytelling."
>
>The writing in 2 is very different from 1 so while the interface and
>engine are basically the same it's in my view a significantly different
>game.

How is the writing very different? The story's certainly almost
identical. The biggest difference is there's no plot-twist in K2; you
know all along you're a fallen jedi, and only a moron wouldn't have a
shrewd idea who the main badguy is.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 12:51:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>> I feel like when I read the reviews of Gothic2, but inverse - that was
>> a fantastic game that got panned for no good reason, this is an
>> excessively derivative, and -considering that it's little more than a
>> mission pack for a game released two years ago- mediocre, game which
>> gets raves for no good reason.
>
>You're being silly. It's an entire story that didn't get resolved
>completely but it's not a "mission pack." Really, you need to
>clean your crack pipe.

Yeah, KOTOR and KOTOR2 are as dissimilar as two completely dissimilar
things in a pod. FFS, it's the SAME GAME, even most of the maps and
most of the characters are re-used but slightly modified from KOTOR.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
March 13, 2005 12:51:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-12, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Thusly "NFLed" <NFLed@aol.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>cinematic, moving style. The interpersonal conflicts are brought out
>>through rich dialogue and well thought-out storytelling."
>>
>>The writing in 2 is very different from 1 so while the interface and
>>engine are basically the same it's in my view a significantly different
>>game.
>
> How is the writing very different? The story's certainly almost
> identical. The biggest difference is there's no plot-twist in K2; you
> know all along you're a fallen jedi, and only a moron wouldn't have a
> shrewd idea who the main badguy is.

You're not a fallen Jedi. Pay attention to the story. You walked
away from the Jedi council and severed your link to the Force
willingly.
March 13, 2005 12:51:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-12, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>> I feel like when I read the reviews of Gothic2, but inverse - that was
>>> a fantastic game that got panned for no good reason, this is an
>>> excessively derivative, and -considering that it's little more than a
>>> mission pack for a game released two years ago- mediocre, game which
>>> gets raves for no good reason.
>>
>>You're being silly. It's an entire story that didn't get resolved
>>completely but it's not a "mission pack." Really, you need to
>>clean your crack pipe.
>
> Yeah, KOTOR and KOTOR2 are as dissimilar as two completely dissimilar
> things in a pod. FFS, it's the SAME GAME, even most of the maps and
> most of the characters are re-used but slightly modified from KOTOR.

I don't believe you really think this. I think you just want to
stir controversy. Congratulations. Now stop trolling.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 4:33:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>> Yeah, KOTOR and KOTOR2 are as dissimilar as two completely dissimilar
>> things in a pod. FFS, it's the SAME GAME, even most of the maps and
>> most of the characters are re-used but slightly modified from KOTOR.
>
>I don't believe you really think this. I think you just want to
>stir controversy. Congratulations. Now stop trolling.

What?!

Half the locations in KOTOR2 are in KOTOR, with only minor
modifications. Part of Telos is based on Taris. Several of the
characters have twins in KOTOR (e.g. Atton/Carth; Mira &
Wookie/Mission & Wookie, ALL non-boss npc's) and some are actually the
same (the droids and Carth As Himself).

The story is very similar - you're a fallen jedi (whatever you want to
call it, you scorned the jedi council to followed Revan & Malak
against the Mandalorians, and didn't chose side in the civil war, only
unlike in KOTOR you know who you are) out to redeem yourself, and the
endgame takes place on a hidden planet where you fight through waves
of sith.

The graphics are identical to KOTOR. The same models are used for the
npc's, the same animations, the same soundeffects. Granted, there is
one completely new npc model (the flying muppet from Ep 1), and a few
new animations, but the differences are very slight. The weapons are
the same.

The difference isn't bigger than between, say, Baldurs Gate II and
BG2: Throne of Baal.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 4:33:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0k0731tphr07e3vhqb8pmjoufbc0nl3aor@4ax.com...
>>> Yeah, KOTOR and KOTOR2 are as dissimilar as two completely dissimilar
>>> things in a pod. FFS, it's the SAME GAME, even most of the maps and
>>> most of the characters are re-used but slightly modified from KOTOR.
>>
>>I don't believe you really think this. I think you just want to
>>stir controversy. Congratulations. Now stop trolling.

> The difference isn't bigger than between, say, Baldurs Gate II and
> BG2: Throne of Baal.

I'd say a much more apt comparison would be between the Kotors and Fallout 1
& 2. Or perhaps BG1 and BG2.

BG2 and its expansion were games where you used the same character for both
games, and you couldn't play Throne of Baal without having SoA already
installed. That's enough of difference, when comparing the Kotors to those
and the games I mentioned, to distinguish the two. It's much more like
Fallout. And, as I noted earlier, the Fallouts and the new Kotor game were
done by essentially the same people.

Not that I necessarily think that's a bad thing. One of the things that I
liked about Fallout 2 was that it wasn't so wildly distinct from the
original. If you enjoyed the first one and didn't play it to where you made
yourself sick of it, the second one can be just as fun, even more fun. It's
got the familiarity of the first but it's a new adventure. And just like
the Kotors, the new adventure is a great deal more involved than the first.

Also, if you're suggesting that Mira/Hanharr is a direct parallel of
Mission/Zaalbar, I don't think you really understood either of those
character pairs or their relationships in their respective games. Either
that or you merely took the superficial tact of seeing that both
relationships had a wookie and overlooked the larger differences between
them. If you're going ignore the differences that much, you might as well
have added Bastila/Kreia and Juhani/Visas. They're a lot more similar than
Mission/Mira and Zaalbar/Hanharr.

C
March 13, 2005 4:33:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-13, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Yeah, KOTOR and KOTOR2 are as dissimilar as two completely dissimilar
>>> things in a pod. FFS, it's the SAME GAME, even most of the maps and
>>> most of the characters are re-used but slightly modified from KOTOR.
>>
>>I don't believe you really think this. I think you just want to
>>stir controversy. Congratulations. Now stop trolling.
>
> What?!
>
> Half the locations in KOTOR2 are in KOTOR, with only minor
> modifications. Part of Telos is based on Taris. Several of the
> characters have twins in KOTOR (e.g. Atton/Carth; Mira &
> Wookie/Mission & Wookie, ALL non-boss npc's) and some are actually the
> same (the droids and Carth As Himself).

First of all using the same models and parts of the maps from
KOTOR1 doesn't make it the same game. It's the same look and feel
visiting familiar places. You can't expect them to drop resources
on redoing Dantooine when it takes place with the same
engine. That's just silly.

Secondly Atton is nothing like Carth. He doesn't whine about his
past. You have to draw it out of him. Mira is nothing like
Mission. Mission was a little lost kid with a big cudly
Wookie. Mira is a bounty hunter that sticks to a code which just
barely redeems what she does.

All your followers have either commited acts of evil or are on
their way to. The only exception is Disciple and Mandalore.

> The story is very similar - you're a fallen jedi (whatever you want to
> call it, you scorned the jedi council to followed Revan & Malak
> against the Mandalorians, and didn't chose side in the civil war, only
> unlike in KOTOR you know who you are) out to redeem yourself, and the
> endgame takes place on a hidden planet where you fight through waves
> of sith.

You're not out to redeem yourself. Pay attention to the story
line. You never "fell" that's the POINT. That's why Kreia sees
you as being really strong. All the other Jedis fell after
Malachor. Some became like Jolee Bindo. They shrugged off the
Jedi order and went into seclusion. Others fell to the
darkside. Your character went back to the Jedi Council shoved the
Lightsabre into the centerstone and walked away.

Did you get the tape of the Jedi Council meeting from your droid?
You walked off and the Jedi Council were glad you did because
they didn't know what to do with you.

> The graphics are identical to KOTOR. The same models are used for the
> npc's, the same animations, the same soundeffects. Granted, there is
> one completely new npc model (the flying muppet from Ep 1), and a few
> new animations, but the differences are very slight. The weapons are
> the same.
>
> The difference isn't bigger than between, say, Baldurs Gate II and
> BG2: Throne of Baal.

I could care less about BG and BG2 in this context. Seriously,
there's no comparison.

I think you raced through the game, and ignored all the character
development. I also think you didn't bother to read any of the
story. It's your loss really. There's been a lot of criticism
about the game. Very little is about how the stories are
identical because they're simply not.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 5:45:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote:

(snippage)

>
>I think you raced through the game, and ignored all the character
>development. I also think you didn't bother to read any of the
>story. It's your loss really. There's been a lot of criticism
>about the game. Very little is about how the stories are
>identical because they're simply not.

I'm not the original poster, but I feel there was a great deal to like
in this game. There were quite a lot of excellent bits.

But it doesn't matter. The overall effect was ruined by the hatchet
job they did to get it to ship on time. We have about 2/3 of a REALLY
good game. 2/3 of a really good game is unacceptable.

-David
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:18:21 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "Charles Whitney" <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> Spake Unto All:

>> The difference isn't bigger than between, say, Baldurs Gate II and
>> BG2: Throne of Baal.
>
>I'd say a much more apt comparison would be between the Kotors and Fallout 1
>& 2. Or perhaps BG1 and BG2.

I disagree, because there were gameplay differences between those
games. There are no significant gameplay differences between KOTOR and
KOTOR2.
But sure, yeah, you can play KOTOR2 without first installing KOTOR. It
isn't in fact an expansion pack, it just looks and plays like one.

>original. If you enjoyed the first one and didn't play it to where you made
>yourself sick of it, the second one can be just as fun, even more fun. It's
>got the familiarity of the first but it's a new adventure. And just like
>the Kotors, the new adventure is a great deal more involved than the first.

Uh - the KOTOR2 story is "a great deal more involved" than KOTOR??? If
anything it's LESS involved, as there is no plot twist in KOTOR2. The
story is straight and predictable as an arrow right up until the devs
ran out of time and simply truncated it on Malachor V.

>Also, if you're suggesting that Mira/Hanharr is a direct parallel of
>Mission/Zaalbar, I don't think you really understood either of those
>character pairs or their relationships in their respective games.

No the sassy rogue character whos name starts with Mi in Kotor has a
wookie who ows her a lifedebt, while the sassy rogue character whose
name starts with Mi in KOTOR2 has a wookie who ows her a life debt AND
HATES IT. No similarity at all. What was I thinking.

>C

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
March 13, 2005 6:18:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-13, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Uh - the KOTOR2 story is "a great deal more involved" than KOTOR??? If
> anything it's LESS involved, as there is no plot twist in KOTOR2. The
> story is straight and predictable as an arrow right up until the devs
> ran out of time and simply truncated it on Malachor V.

Really. You said yourself you found it a surprise when you could
take out Nihilus easily. Did you let Visas look behind his mask?

> No the sassy rogue character whos name starts with Mi in Kotor has a
> wookie who ows her a lifedebt, while the sassy rogue character whose
> name starts with Mi in KOTOR2 has a wookie who ows her a life debt AND
> HATES IT. No similarity at all. What was I thinking.

OK. Let me retract the last statement from my other post. I think
you did read most of the story. You're just being an ass
intentionally because you have nothing to do on a Saturday night.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:18:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9f8731djrtf68vde9ua19j1im08l2bju8u@4ax.com...
> Thusly "Charles Whitney" <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>> The difference isn't bigger than between, say, Baldurs Gate II and
>>> BG2: Throne of Baal.
>>
>>I'd say a much more apt comparison would be between the Kotors and Fallout
>>1
>>& 2. Or perhaps BG1 and BG2.
>
> I disagree, because there were gameplay differences between those
> games. There are no significant gameplay differences between KOTOR and
> KOTOR2.
> But sure, yeah, you can play KOTOR2 without first installing KOTOR. It
> isn't in fact an expansion pack, it just looks and plays like one.

What gameplay differences were there between Fallout and Fallout 2? I
notice your weasel wording though, as you hold Fallout and Fallout 2 and BG1
and BG2 to "gameplay differences" and hold Kotor to the higher standard of
"significant gameplay differences".

They both use the same engine, the same ruleset, have some modest
differences in feats and for the Fallouts, extremely similar storylines that
unfold in extremely similar fashions. The skillset that Fallout uses is
precisely the same as the one Fallout 2 uses. The fact that some skills are
more useful in Fallout 2 than in Fallout 1 reflects a similar change with
the Kotors.

>>original. If you enjoyed the first one and didn't play it to where you
>>made
>>yourself sick of it, the second one can be just as fun, even more fun.
>>It's
>>got the familiarity of the first but it's a new adventure. And just like
>>the Kotors, the new adventure is a great deal more involved than the
>>first.
>
> Uh - the KOTOR2 story is "a great deal more involved" than KOTOR??? If
> anything it's LESS involved, as there is no plot twist in KOTOR2. The
> story is straight and predictable as an arrow right up until the devs
> ran out of time and simply truncated it on Malachor V.

It's a great deal more involved. Did you actually pursue the subplots with
each of your companions? Did you get to the point where you could make all
the characters who could become jedi jedi? Did you speak to NPCs and find
all the sidequests? Did you try to determine the backstory behind the
sidequests? And just because a story is linear doesn't mean it's not more
involved. A too-linear storyline is a valid criticism of both Kotors, but
that doesn't make the latter less involved than the former. Predictability
and linearity are not mutually exclusive from depth. I mean hell, you
suggest that having a plot twist somehow makes a story more involved. Are
you thus suggesting that if Kotor2 had ended when you arrived at Telos the
first time with you discovering that Atton was actually a woman, that story
would have been more involved than Kotor2's story actually was?


>>Also, if you're suggesting that Mira/Hanharr is a direct parallel of
>>Mission/Zaalbar, I don't think you really understood either of those
>>character pairs or their relationships in their respective games.
>
> No the sassy rogue character whos name starts with Mi in Kotor has a
> wookie who ows her a lifedebt, while the sassy rogue character whose
> name starts with Mi in KOTOR2 has a wookie who ows her a life debt AND
> HATES IT. No similarity at all. What was I thinking.

Like I said, you saw two superficial things, the name and the fact that's
one's a wookie and overlooked everything else.

See, that's the thing. Zaalbar didn't owe Mission a lifedebt. They were
friends. She was an orphan abandoned by her brother and he had been exiled
fighting his corrupt brother who was enslaving his own people: two outcasts
on a refugee world. Hanharr and Mira were bounty hunters, not friends at
all. They hated each other. Hanharr was a nutter, who had enslaved and
brutalized his own people for Czerka before escaping to enslave and
brutalize humans freelance. He owed Mira a lifedebt because she saved his
life when he was trying to kill her. This drove him insane, because he
hated humans, and hated Mira especially.

He wasn't nice and cuddly like Zaalbar. He was a sadist. That's a pretty
big difference between the characters. And you overlooked the most
significant difference between the two games: the fact that you couldn't
have both Mira and Hanharr join you. If you got Mira in your party, Hanharr
was gone from the game from the point when you finished the Jekk Jekk Tarr
portion of Nar Shadaa until you arrived on Malachor V. It's the other way
if you play a dark sider. That's a pretty big difference from having both
Mission and Zaalbar with you pretty much all the way through Kotor1.

And Mission wasn't sassy. She was precocious.

C
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 7:29:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>> Uh - the KOTOR2 story is "a great deal more involved" than KOTOR??? If
>> anything it's LESS involved, as there is no plot twist in KOTOR2. The
>> story is straight and predictable as an arrow right up until the devs
>> ran out of time and simply truncated it on Malachor V.
>
>Really. You said yourself you found it a surprise when you could
>take out Nihilus easily.

Yes, I was surprised. It was a major encounter, I expected a tough
fight. I expected to have to use stances, shield, boosters, healing
packs, perhaps even grenades. I was surprised when the bad guy went
down in fifteen seconds without doing any damage.

> Did you let Visas look behind his mask?

Yes. And?

(Besides, shouldn't Visas have fought him alone? As part of her
character development? Master vs Slave?)

>> No the sassy rogue character whos name starts with Mi in Kotor has a
>> wookie who ows her a lifedebt, while the sassy rogue character whose
>> name starts with Mi in KOTOR2 has a wookie who ows her a life debt AND
>> HATES IT. No similarity at all. What was I thinking.
>
>OK. Let me retract the last statement from my other post. I think
>you did read most of the story. You're just being an ass
>intentionally because you have nothing to do on a Saturday night.

No. I really, really, really, don't see where you guys are coming
from. It's a nice game, but it IS extremely, enormously, amazingly,
derivative, and adds nothing of value to the KOTOR1 formula. In my
opinion KOTOR1 was a better game, as it is equal to KOTOR2 in
everything except it had a coherent story with an actual ending.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
March 13, 2005 11:44:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-13, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> No. I really, really, really, don't see where you guys are coming
> from. It's a nice game, but it IS extremely, enormously, amazingly,
> derivative, and adds nothing of value to the KOTOR1 formula. In my
> opinion KOTOR1 was a better game, as it is equal to KOTOR2 in
> everything except it had a coherent story with an actual ending.

Understandable. Stick to BG like games or Diablo.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 5:15:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "Charles Whitney" <cbillingsw@yahoo.com> Spake Unto All:

>What gameplay differences were there between Fallout and Fallout 2? I

No, I won't follow that sidetrack. Start a separate thread if you wish
to explore that further. I stand by my assessment that KOTOR and
KOTOR2 have no significant difference in gameplay, and that what few
differences there are, are on the size and scope of what one'd expect
to see in an expansion pack.

>precisely the same as the one Fallout 2 uses. The fact that some skills are
>more useful in Fallout 2 than in Fallout 1 reflects a similar change with
>the Kotors.

Truthfully, I didn't notice. As the game was easier than KOTOR, there
was nothing, with the exception of the tank droid, in the entire game
which would not go down quickly and easily if one simply dual-wielded
and masterflurried. I occasionally force waved and force screamed, but
mostly to amuse myself in what was otherwise tedious and repetitive
combat.

>> Uh - the KOTOR2 story is "a great deal more involved" than KOTOR??? If
>> anything it's LESS involved, as there is no plot twist in KOTOR2. The
>> story is straight and predictable as an arrow right up until the devs
>> ran out of time and simply truncated it on Malachor V.
>
>It's a great deal more involved. Did you actually pursue the subplots with
>each of your companions?

You mean the people who stop having anything to say about halfway
through the game? Only Kreia and the Handmaiden had anything
interesting to say to start with, and the Handmaiden like the others
dried up after she became jedi.

>Did you get to the point where you could make all
>the characters who could become jedi?

No, I failed there. I only got the Handmaiden, Visira, Bao, and Mira
to become well adjusted members of the Jedi community. Atton only
wanted to obsess about his dreary "dark past" as a sith assassin and
play pazaak, and the Mandalorian Canderous clone... well, basically I
didn't lug either of them around enough to gain any influence.

>Did you speak to NPCs and find
>all the sidequests? Did you try to determine the backstory behind the
>sidequests? And just because a story is linear doesn't mean it's not more
>involved. A too-linear storyline is a valid criticism of both Kotors, but
>that doesn't make the latter less involved than the former. Predictability
>and linearity are not mutually exclusive from depth. I mean hell, you
>suggest that having a plot twist somehow makes a story more involved. Are
>you thus suggesting that if Kotor2 had ended when you arrived at Telos the
>first time with you discovering that Atton was actually a woman, that story
>would have been more involved than Kotor2's story actually was?

You're not seriously claiming that a story that's easily predictable
start to finish is more involved than a story that's NOT easily
predictable, are you?

AFAIK 'involved' in this context means 'complex or intricate', so
unpredictability is certainly a big part of it. If Atton being
cross-gender had any effect on the plot, say through a romance with
the player, that could certainly have made the story more involved.

But having Atton tell you, without any in-game consequences at all,
that he used to be a Sith assassin, doesn't. It's just a red herring.

Other things which would've made the story more involved would, for
instance, have been if the characters hadn't been format 1A rpg
archetypes. E.g. Bao is as a monk, Mira is a rogue etc, and they look,
sound, and behave exactly as these rpg archetypes are supposed to.

There *are* some attempts at complicating the story, but they're never
followed through, although I suppose part of the reason for that is
that the game was truncated in order to hit shops in time for
christmas.

For instance, in several places it is hinted that BALANCE is what's
desirable, that both lightside and darkside are needed. This isn't
exactly a revolutionary thought, as it's basically Yin & Yang all
over, but making the player establish _balance_ in the galaxy between
the stuck-up stupidity of the Jedi and the self-destructive malicious
coolness of the Sith would've been an interesting vehicle. And it'd
have opened the field forever for sequels.

Now, I do sense the hand of Chris Avellone here and there, for
instance in discussions with Kreia, how to deal with the leader of the
rebellion on Onderon, and definitely in the cut ending (which, if what
I've read about it is correct, is reminiscent of the final segment of
Planescape: Torment) but as a whole the story is transparent and
unproblematic.

(btw, check out Planescape: Torment if you want to see an *actually*
involved story, and an example of how interaction with party members
*should* be)

>Like I said, you saw two superficial things, the name and the fact that's
>one's a wookie and overlooked everything else.

Yeah, well, I'll give you that point. The SW universe is probably as
teeming with sassy rogues with wookies as it is with famous ex-fallen
ex-Jedi mega-generals who deeply impressed the Mandalorians with their
skill and valor yet have lost their powers and been reduced to level 1
and formed a unique force bond with someone.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
March 13, 2005 5:15:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-13, Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> You mean the people who stop having anything to say about halfway
> through the game? Only Kreia and the Handmaiden had anything
> interesting to say to start with, and the Handmaiden like the others
> dried up after she became jedi.

All your companions except for Hanhar can be turned into Jedi or
Sith. They all grow force sensitive as you gain influence with
them. The trick is you actually have to be bothered to take them
with you and not stick to a single 3 man party the whole game.

> No, I failed there. I only got the Handmaiden, Visira, Bao, and Mira
> to become well adjusted members of the Jedi community. Atton only
> wanted to obsess about his dreary "dark past" as a sith assassin and
> play pazaak, and the Mandalorian Canderous clone... well, basically I
> didn't lug either of them around enough to gain any influence.

He *is* Canderous. He's not a clone. I forgot how it's made clear
to you but it is later on.

> But having Atton tell you, without any in-game consequences at all,
> that he used to be a Sith assassin, doesn't. It's just a red herring.

Nope. He turns Jedi or Sith if you help him be at peace with his
past or if you break his spirit.

> For instance, in several places it is hinted that BALANCE is what's
> desirable, that both lightside and darkside are needed. This isn't
> exactly a revolutionary thought, as it's basically Yin & Yang all
> over, but making the player establish _balance_ in the galaxy between
> the stuck-up stupidity of the Jedi and the self-destructive malicious
> coolness of the Sith would've been an interesting vehicle. And it'd
> have opened the field forever for sequels.

I don't recall hearing anything about balance. In KOTOR1 Jolee
Bindo might have mentioned it but in KOTOR2 Kreia just wants you
to realize how powerful your actions are.

> (btw, check out Planescape: Torment if you want to see an *actually*
> involved story, and an example of how interaction with party members
> *should* be)

KOTOR2 has very similar mechanics but as per your previous psots
you just never bothered which is a shame (mostly for you)
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:18:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>> No. I really, really, really, don't see where you guys are coming
>> from. It's a nice game, but it IS extremely, enormously, amazingly,
>> derivative, and adds nothing of value to the KOTOR1 formula. In my
>> opinion KOTOR1 was a better game, as it is equal to KOTOR2 in
>> everything except it had a coherent story with an actual ending.
>
>Understandable. Stick to BG like games or Diablo.

Wrongful pegging. I'll stick to Gothic2, Planescape: Torment, and even
KOTOR.
KOTOR2 is merely mediocre, on account of the broken game balance and
the lack of an ending.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 12:14:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

David Bilek wrote:
> shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote:
>
> (snippage)
>
>
>>I think you raced through the game, and ignored all the character
>>development. I also think you didn't bother to read any of the
>>story. It's your loss really. There's been a lot of criticism
>>about the game. Very little is about how the stories are
>>identical because they're simply not.
>
>
> I'm not the original poster, but I feel there was a great deal to like
> in this game. There were quite a lot of excellent bits.
>
> But it doesn't matter. The overall effect was ruined by the hatchet
> job they did to get it to ship on time. We have about 2/3 of a REALLY
> good game. 2/3 of a really good game is unacceptable.

I really enjoyed KOTOR2, up to the point where things began to fall
apart - the droid factory we never got to see, the end sequence that was
mainly spoken dialogue, that sort of thing. At the time, I thought it
was just a terse ending, but then I saw what was supposed to be there,
and I would really like to see something to restore that ending - either
released by the company or some mad genius modder. :) 

On the bright side, I love the HK droids.

Cheers,
Grant
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 4:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:51:19 +0100, Mean_Chlorine
<mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Thusly "NFLed" <NFLed@aol.com> Spake Unto All:

>>cinematic, moving style. The interpersonal conflicts are brought out
>>through rich dialogue and well thought-out storytelling."

>>The writing in 2 is very different from 1 so while the interface and
>>engine are basically the same it's in my view a significantly different
>>game.

>How is the writing very different?

The dialogue is very different, far more philosophical. Its one reason
why the early part of the game is so good.

[snip]
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 7:13:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <h2b73151m9jdsvra909i375ao20e09sjoe@4ax.com>,
Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> In my opinion KOTOR1 was a better game, as it is equal to KOTOR2 in
> everything except it had a coherent story with an actual ending.

Seconded.

Rick R.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 7:20:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <kge83115oq9bkpai9g5svbf0tge6fsvgpe@4ax.com>,
Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> You mean the people who stop having anything to say about halfway
> through the game? Only Kreia and the Handmaiden had anything
> interesting to say to start with, and the Handmaiden like the others
> dried up after she became jedi.

It's got a lot to do with your travelling companions. There are lots
of in-game situations, aside from the dialog on board the Ebon Hawk,
where you might gain or lose influence with the NPCs. You need to
build influence to get the later dialog options, so that means
dividing your time among different NPCs.

Of course, I realized this after I spent most of my time with T3,
since I liked the little dude so much.

> play pazaak, and the Mandalorian Canderous clone... well, basically I
> didn't lug either of them around enough to gain any influence.

He's not a clone. He's the genuine Ordo.

Rick R.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 7:23:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <slrnd38l35.b7p.shadows@helena.whitefang.com>,
shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote:
> All your companions except for Hanhar can be turned into Jedi or
> Sith.

T3? G0T0? HK-47?

I confess, a lightsaber-wielding T3 would be hella hella cool. He's
already pretty freaking dangerous with dual blasters.

Rick R.
March 15, 2005 10:30:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-15, Rick Russell <rickr@is.rice.edu> wrote:
> In article <slrnd38l35.b7p.shadows@helena.whitefang.com>,
> shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote:
>> All your companions except for Hanhar can be turned into Jedi or
>> Sith.
>
> T3? G0T0? HK-47?
>
> I confess, a lightsaber-wielding T3 would be hella hella cool. He's
> already pretty freaking dangerous with dual blasters.

Sorry not the droids :-) I thought that would be obvious.

Evidently Lucas Arts told OE that they cannot turn a Wookie into
a Jedi despite what the Expanded Universe source material says.

Chris Avellone was for a while very active on the OE forums
explaining things like this and even getting in arguments with
over zealous SW fans about things like the way the Basilisk droid
looked. He certainly spent a lot of time reading up on SW source
material.
March 15, 2005 10:52:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Rick Russell" <rickr@is.rice.edu> wrote in message
news:D 15nqk$or3$1@joe.rice.edu...

> Of course, I realized this after I spent most of my time with T3,
> since I liked the little dude so much.

Me too. Says something about the other NPCs when the most interesting is a
tin can.
March 15, 2005 10:52:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-15, Sarah <scrubbrush@DELrogers.comDEL> wrote:
> "Rick Russell" <rickr@is.rice.edu> wrote in message
> news:D 15nqk$or3$1@joe.rice.edu...
>
>> Of course, I realized this after I spent most of my time with T3,
>> since I liked the little dude so much.
>
> Me too. Says something about the other NPCs when the most interesting is a
> tin can.

Maybe for you. I liked Kriea and Visas a lot myself.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 4:30:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly rickr@is.rice.edu (Rick Russell) Spake Unto All:

>> Mandalorian Canderous clone... well, basically I
>> didn't lug either of them around enough to gain any influence.
>
>He's not a clone. He's the genuine Ordo.

Ah, OK. Well, as I said, I didn't lug him around much.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 6:57:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Sarah in <4236dac6$0$63134$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>:

> "Rick Russell" <rickr@is.rice.edu> wrote in message
> news:D 15nqk$or3$1@joe.rice.edu...
>
> > Of course, I realized this after I spent most of my time with T3,
> > since I liked the little dude so much.
>
> Me too.

Me three. :)  For one thing, T3 and I have been through a lot from Taris to
Telos. For another, T3 is more active in this game than in KotOR 1 and he
gets more exposure, and he even follows his own agenda (or, more likely,
Revan's instructions). I think he was superbly done.

Apropos superb, I think the dialogue between B-4D4 and the T3-class utility
droid during one of the Citadel quests (and the subsequent conversation in
the waiting area near the docks) was absolutely hilarious.

> Says something about the other NPCs when the most interesting is a
> tin can.

For me the most interesting/complex is Kreia, but the other NPCs were
interesting too. But T3 is certainly the most likable; if he had a
vocabulator then he might even compete with Deekin. :D 
March 15, 2005 6:57:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-03-15, Darth Frog <sherlog@t-online.de> wrote:

> For me the most interesting/complex is Kreia, but the other NPCs were
> interesting too. But T3 is certainly the most likable; if he had a
> vocabulator then he might even compete with Deekin. :D 

If I'm not mistaken you can get him a vocabulator. You need to
check the walkthroughs at gamefaqs but I do believe one of the
droid salesmen you meet can do something for him.

I need to try it out after the patch gets released.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 8:53:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>Chris Avellone was for a while very active on the OE forums
>explaining --- He certainly spent a lot of time reading up on SW source
>material.

Yeah, I'm a fan of his since PS:T. Too bad he didn't get to do his
thing with KOTOR2.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 2:05:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

shadows in <slrnd3dvud.ei3.shadows@helena.whitefang.com>:

> On 2005-03-15, Darth Frog <sherlog@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> > [...] T3 is certainly the most likable; if he had a
> > vocabulator then he might even compete with Deekin. :D 
>
> If I'm not mistaken you can get him a vocabulator.

T3 only does 'deet-deet dwoooo bwop' the whole game. The vocabulator is for
a certain other droid. <g>
!