In 10 years time what RPG's will you still consider classi..

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
to come? Baldurs Gate 2 is the game that I think I will have the
fondest memories for. Its a few years old already but I still rate it
as the best CRPG of all time. I must have completed it over a dozen
times with every possible combination of NPC's and playing
characters. I don't think I've completed any other RPG more than
twice.
I loved the story of Planescape Torment more but it didn't have same
replay value as BG2. Other honourable mentions must go to the Gothics,
Morrowind, the Fallouts, Wizardry 8 and going back a few years to the
Eye of the Beholder games.

PS. I never played any Ultima's until recently.

Badbark
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd
have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate physicist
60 answers Last reply
More about years time classi
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Fallout 1&2, Deus Ex, and NWN (the fan made modules, not the official
    ones).
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Definitely the big three for me Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape Torment,
    and Wizardry 8. There are other very good ones but these 3 stand out
    from the rest in a big way.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Badbark wrote:
    > I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    > to come?

    [snip]

    Of the more recent titles, I'd like to nominate Gothic II (never played
    the first).
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 20 Jun 2005 03:37:59 -0700, "Badbark" <badbark@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >to come? Baldurs Gate 2 is the game that I think I will have the
    >fondest memories for. Its a few years old already but I still rate it
    >as the best CRPG of all time. I must have completed it over a dozen
    >times with every possible combination of NPC's and playing
    >characters. I don't think I've completed any other RPG more than
    >twice.
    >I loved the story of Planescape Torment more but it didn't have same
    >replay value as BG2. Other honourable mentions must go to the Gothics,
    >Morrowind, the Fallouts, Wizardry 8 and going back a few years to the
    >Eye of the Beholder games.
    >
    >PS. I never played any Ultima's until recently.
    >
    >Badbark
    >"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd
    >have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    >But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
    >- Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate physicist


    Yes to those you mentioned, but I would still consider Wasteland a
    classic. Also Might & Magic 2 (and 3-5).
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Badbark wrote:
    > I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    > to come?

    Gothic 1+2 (and 3-4 at that time) :)

    > Badbark
    > "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd
    > have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    > But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
    > - Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate physicist
    >

    waves
    Uwe
  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly "Badbark" <badbark@hotmail.com> Spake Unto All:

    >I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >to come? Baldurs Gate 2 is the game that I think I will have the
    >fondest memories for.

    Planescape: Torment.

    >Its a few years old already but I still rate it
    >as the best CRPG of all time.

    Oh, you are sadly mistaken - that title of course belongs to
    Planescape: Torment.


    "We also found that for university students, total time spent in the recent past
    on video games has a potential detrimental effect on grades."
    -- Anderson & Dill makes a Discovery, in 'Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts,
    Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life'. 2004.
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:17:55 -0400, Big McLargehuge <nomore@spam.com>
    wrote:

    >On 20 Jun 2005 03:37:59 -0700, "Badbark" <badbark@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >>to come? Baldurs Gate 2 is the game that I think I will have the
    >>fondest memories for. Its a few years old already but I still rate it
    >>as the best CRPG of all time. I must have completed it over a dozen
    >>times with every possible combination of NPC's and playing
    >>characters. I don't think I've completed any other RPG more than
    >>twice.

    Most likely, it's either Diablo or Nethack would be best remembered as a
    classic. They both have a large enough fan base that are obscenely loyal
    to the game iteself.

    >>I loved the story of Planescape Torment more but it didn't have same
    >>replay value as BG2. Other honourable mentions must go to the Gothics,
    >>Morrowind, the Fallouts, Wizardry 8 and going back a few years to the
    >>Eye of the Beholder games.

    Eye of the Beholder wasn't as good as it could be - AD&D monsters didn't
    work well in that engine. In all three games, it was possible to fake out
    most monsters by the same tactic in Dungeon Master - either sidestep, or
    move before they attack.

    I'd consider DM to be more "classic" then EOB - the game was longer, plenty
    of puzzles and traps, and a semi-unique game system. You could still
    munchkin the game by attacking thin-air and throwing stuff around, but DM
    felt unique enough to be remembered.

    >>
    >>PS. I never played any Ultima's until recently.
    >>
    >>Badbark
    >>"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd
    >>have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    >>But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
    >>- Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate physicist
    >
    >
    >Yes to those you mentioned, but I would still consider Wasteland a
    >classic. Also Might & Magic 2 (and 3-5).

    M&M 3-5 might be a bit old, but I doubt they'll be a true classic. While
    the game is rough for low-level characters, it gets increadibly easy in the
    late game where your characters have high-enough stats to perform 12
    attacks in a combat round (which in turn, means that most monsters get torn
    to shreads before they can retaliate.)

    It becomes a little anti-climatic when both the final boss or other
    extremely powerful monster gets slain instantly. There's also the bug
    where some quest items (e.g. the Xeenslayer sword) disappering if you don't
    have any inventory space available. Because of this, I'd consider 6 and
    later to have a better chance of being a classic.

    Post-5 would have a better chance of being remembered as classic, but I
    doubt that will survive the test of time.
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Badbark" <badbark@hotmail.com> once tried to test me with:

    > I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    > to come? Baldurs Gate 2 is the game that I think I will have the
    > fondest memories for. Its a few years old already but I still rate it
    > as the best CRPG of all time. I must have completed it over a dozen
    > times with every possible combination of NPC's and playing
    > characters. I don't think I've completed any other RPG more than
    > twice.
    > I loved the story of Planescape Torment more but it didn't have same
    > replay value as BG2. Other honourable mentions must go to the Gothics,
    > Morrowind, the Fallouts, Wizardry 8 and going back a few years to the
    > Eye of the Beholder games.

    Planescape is my favorite single player RPG but the following I feel in 10
    years I'll consider classics:


    World of Warcraft
    Planescape: Torment
    Fallouts
    Gothics
    Might & Magics
    Wizardrys
    Ultimas
    Betrayal at Krondor
    Diablo 2 + LOD

    Maybe:
    Divine Divinity
    IWDs
    BGs
    NWN
    Arx Fatalis

    I am sure KOTOR might go on there but I haven't decided if it's classic or
    not, just too new to me.

    --

    Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

    Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:48:00 -0400, bk039@ncf.ca (Raymond Martineau)
    wrote:


    >Eye of the Beholder wasn't as good as it could be - AD&D monsters didn't
    >work well in that engine. In all three games, it was possible to fake out
    >most monsters by the same tactic in Dungeon Master - either sidestep, or
    >move before they attack.
    >
    >I'd consider DM to be more "classic" then EOB - the game was longer, plenty
    >of puzzles and traps, and a semi-unique game system. You could still
    >munchkin the game by attacking thin-air and throwing stuff around, but DM
    >felt unique enough to be remembered.
    >
    >>

    Dungeon Master (1987) is a classic for one obvious reason; it is the
    grand-daddy of first-person color-graphical dungeon romps. With the
    very first decent party- and object-handling (and throwing)
    mouse-keyboard UI. Emulated in an infinite number of later games
    right down to today, including EOB1/2/3. And it had another first to
    it on the Commodore-Amiga -- full positional-stereo sound. The first
    time I encountered a skeleton hidden around a corner, I almost jumped
    out of my chair - both the visual and audio experience. I cannot
    recollect whether the Atari-ST version had stereo. And the
    fiendishly-logical puzzles. No impossible-to-figure puzzles.. but
    there were some tough ones, including some (now standard fare) -like
    dropping a rock on a hidden plate ( heard click when you stood there)
    to enable another action. That was the time when the PC had just
    squeaks and clicks (and monochrome or16-color graphics). Dungeon
    Master came on one 880K floppy -but functionally and graphically
    astonishing even now- great credit to not only the team at FTL, but
    the uniquely powerful Amiga A/V custom chip-set and operating-system.
    --

    John Lewis

    "Technology early-birds always turn out to be flying guinea-pigs"
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Another neat feature that Dungeonmaster has and which I don't recall
    seeing in other games yet, is that your party members who are in the
    rear would actually turn to face the monsters if those monsters have
    managed to flank your party. So, you could actually issue combat orders
    to the rear members and they would fight while the screen is still
    facing forward.
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thus spake "Volstag" <hawkbeak@hotmail.com>, 20 Jun 2005 14:06:37 -0700,
    Anno Domini:

    >Badbark wrote:
    >> I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >> to come?
    >
    >[snip]
    >
    >Of the more recent titles, I'd like to nominate Gothic II (never played
    >the first).

    Bzzt! You're all wrong. We will all still be reminiscing about Duke Nukem
    Forever in 10 years time. >8^D

    --
    A killfile is a friend for life.

    Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Let me preface this with the idea that I am not judging this on games that I
    liked but am taking the far stronger stance of a game so good that it was a
    classic or eye-opener to me. So, a short list.

    Knights of the Old Republic.

    Note that I didn't like BG1 and so never played BG2, and that I nominate
    this one because it just makes it so easy to plunk a character in and role
    play it while following an actual story, unlike a game like Morrowind whose
    story is noted as being forgettable at best. KOTOR2 is no where near as
    good.
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> once tried to test me with:

    > Bzzt! You're all wrong. We will all still be reminiscing about Duke Nukem
    > Forever in 10 years time. >8^D

    We'll still be WAITING for DNF in 10 years.

    --

    Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

    Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly "Allan C Cybulskie" <allan.c.cybulskie@yahoo.ca> Spake Unto
    All:

    >Note that I didn't like BG1 and so never played BG2, and that I nominate
    >this one because it just makes it so easy to plunk a character in and role
    >play it while following an actual story, unlike a game like Morrowind whose
    >story is noted as being forgettable at best. KOTOR2 is no where near as
    >good.

    BG1 is a mindless hack-fest, and it turned me off Baldurs Gate for
    quite some time too, but BG2 is really much better.

    KOTOR2 had promise, with some more complex and some less irritating
    npcs than KOTOR1, but the truncated ending and the fact that it was so
    derivative makes it pretty bleh, in my opinion. KOTOR1 was great,
    though.

    "We also found that for university students, total time spent in the recent past
    on video games has a potential detrimental effect on grades."
    -- Anderson & Dill makes a Discovery, in 'Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts,
    Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life'. 2004.
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    I think Neverwinter Nights will be up there. Not so much for the original
    campaign that it came with, but for all the community modules and
    persistant worlds. In fact, I'm pretty sure people will still be playing
    it ten years after it came out, unless it's replaced by something else
    that can use all those resources.


    --
    chuk
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    > Dungeon
    > Master came on one 880K floppy -but functionally and graphically
    > astonishing even now- great credit to not only the team at FTL, but
    > the uniquely powerful Amiga A/V custom chip-set and operating-system.

    The sad addendum to that is that I was forced to buy my first IBM-PC
    when it became apparent that the Amiga's bitplaned video ram and video
    architecture was never going to be able to handle (what was then) a high
    bandwidth bitmap-transformation intensive texture-mapped 3D game like
    Ultima Underworld. Ironically, the inferior (in nearly every other way)
    PC VGA architecture was much faster at texture map transformation, not
    using bitplanes. :(
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    >Dungeon Master came on one 880K floppy -but functionally and graphically
    >astonishing even now- great credit to not only the team at FTL, but the
    >uniquely powerful Amiga A/V custom chip-set and operating-system.

    Except that Dungeon Master was originally an Atari ST game and didn't
    take any advantage of the of the Amiga's graphics features. It looked
    the same on the Atari ST, Amiga and PC.

    mr bernard langham <spam.is.bad@mmkay.com> wrote:
    >Ironically, the inferior (in nearly every other way) PC VGA architecture
    >was much faster at texture map transformation, not using bitplanes. :(

    The biggest advantage VGA graphics had over the graphics of the Amiga,
    and which made the PC a better gaming machine in most people's minds,
    was that it supported 256 colour graphics.

    Ross Ridge

    --
    l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
    [oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
    -()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/rridge/
    db //
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:56:25 +0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
    (Ross Ridge) wrote:

    >>Dungeon Master came on one 880K floppy -but functionally and graphically
    >>astonishing even now- great credit to not only the team at FTL, but the
    >>uniquely powerful Amiga A/V custom chip-set and operating-system.
    >
    >Except that Dungeon Master was originally an Atari ST game and didn't
    >take any advantage of the of the Amiga's graphics features. It looked
    >the same on the Atari ST, Amiga and PC.
    >
    >mr bernard langham <spam.is.bad@mmkay.com> wrote:
    >>Ironically, the inferior (in nearly every other way) PC VGA architecture
    >>was much faster at texture map transformation, not using bitplanes. :(
    >
    >The biggest advantage VGA graphics had over the graphics of the Amiga,
    >and which made the PC a better gaming machine in most people's minds,
    >was that it supported 256 colour graphics.
    >

    In 1987 ?????

    Amiga was 64-colour at that time. VGA was only introduced to the PC
    that year. In 1987, existing color PCs were 16-color EGA.

    John Lewis

    > Ross Ridge
    >
    >--
    > l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
    >[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
    >-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/rridge/
    > db //

    --

    John Lewis

    "Technology early-birds always turn out to be flying guinea-pigs"
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 20 Jun 2005 03:37:59 -0700, "Badbark" <badbark@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >to come? Baldurs Gate 2 is the game that I think I will have the
    >fondest memories for. Its a few years old already but I still rate it
    >as the best CRPG of all time. I must have completed it over a dozen
    >times with every possible combination of NPC's and playing
    >characters. I don't think I've completed any other RPG more than
    >twice.
    >I loved the story of Planescape Torment more but it didn't have same
    >replay value as BG2. Other honourable mentions must go to the Gothics,
    >Morrowind, the Fallouts, Wizardry 8 and going back a few years to the
    >Eye of the Beholder games.
    >
    >PS. I never played any Ultima's until recently.
    >
    >Badbark
    >"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd
    >have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    >But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
    >- Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate physicist

    KOTOR
    Baldur's Gate
    NWN

    of course in 10yrs you'll be hard pushed to get any of these to run on
    a PC (whatever they'll look like in 2015)

    toadie
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    dangtranvu@netscape.net schrieb:
    > Another neat feature that Dungeonmaster has and which I don't recall
    > seeing in other games yet, is that your party members who are in the
    > rear would actually turn to face the monsters if those monsters have
    > managed to flank your party. So, you could actually issue combat orders
    > to the rear members and they would fight while the screen is still
    > facing forward.
    >

    Wizardry 8 behaves in the same way. You must equip your party members
    who are in the rear with long range weapons, otherwise they can only
    attack the enemies who are trying to flank you.

    -Niels-
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 20 Jun 2005 03:37:59 -0700, "Badbark" <badbark@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >to come?

    System Shock 2
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) Spake Unto All:

    >The biggest advantage VGA graphics had over the graphics of the Amiga,
    >and which made the PC a better gaming machine in most people's minds,
    >was that it supported 256 colour graphics.

    ....whereas the Amiga only could run in 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and 4096
    colors. The Amiga actually had more colors than the early VGA
    machines. Plus that the later models also had 256 color modes.

    The OP is right, it was the poor 3D performance that killed off the
    Amiga. A gaming platform without games like Wolfenstein, Ultima
    Underworld and Doom was, well, doomed.
    The poor 3D performance, in turn, was caused by (intentionally?)
    criminally negligent management at Commodore.

    > Ross Ridge

    "We also found that for university students, total time spent in the recent past
    on video games has a potential detrimental effect on grades."
    -- Anderson & Dill makes a Discovery, in 'Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts,
    Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life'. 2004.
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:50:28 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
    <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    >Thusly rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) Spake Unto All:
    >
    >>The biggest advantage VGA graphics had over the graphics of the Amiga,
    >>and which made the PC a better gaming machine in most people's minds,
    >>was that it supported 256 colour graphics.
    >
    >...whereas the Amiga only could run in 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and 4096
    >colors. The Amiga actually had more colors than the early VGA
    >machines. Plus that the later models also had 256 color modes.
    >
    >The OP is right, it was the poor 3D performance that killed off the
    >Amiga.

    I wouldn't say that's the cause, as 3D renderers at the time relied on
    processor power rather than graphics accelleration.

    Wolf 3D required a 286 clocked to 12Mhz, as it needed to process an entire
    ~320x~160 each 20th of a second. The most common Amiga models were clocked
    to 7.14Mhz, below the clock-speed requirements for these games.

    Graphics wise, the Amiga can render 3D environments with acceptable speed -
    as an example, either Stunt Car Racer or Interphase (both semi-obsure
    games.)

    While Amigas might have difficulty rendering textured environments as in
    Wolf 3D or Ultima Underworld, so did other computers during that time - in
    the case of the former, only the fastest of computers could draw the screen
    at maximum size. In the case of the latter, the view distance was short
    and the render window was small, both of which cut down on render time.

    BTW, Wolf3D and UU were games on a 2D map. Algorithms and hacks are easily
    available to cut down on rendering time.

    >The poor 3D performance, in turn, was caused by (intentionally?)
    >criminally negligent management at Commodore.

    No, Commodore just simply gave up in the computer hardware business. While
    their Commodore 64 and Amiga were successful enough, they did not release a
    truly updated computer that improved the specifications of the computer.

    Also, Wolf3D was generally large enough to require more than one floppy to
    install. It would definatly not work in a normal Amiga envrionment, which
    is mainly centered around floppy disks. (HDs at the time were much more
    rare.)
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <42b6d410$0$34770$91cee783@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>,
    koh@gmx.net says...
    > Badbark wrote:
    > > I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    > > to come?
    >

    TOP 10:

    Planescape: Torment (PC)
    Ultima Underworld (PC)
    Final Fantasy J3 aka US6 (SNES)
    Chrono Cross (SNES)
    Fallout (PC)
    Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64)
    World of Warcraft (PC)
    Arx Fatalis (PC)
    Gothic 2 (PC)
    Betrayal at Krondor (PC)
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    mr bernard langham <spam.is.bad@mmkay.com> skrev i meddelelsen
    news:MPG.1d22554576d59cde989682@news.sydney.pipenetworks.com:

    > TOP 10:
    >
    Morrowind
    > Planescape: Torment (PC)
    > Ultima Underworld (PC)
    Ultima 7 I & II (PC)
    Ultima 8
    > Fallout (PC)
    Daggerfall
    Gothic (PC)
    > Gothic 2 (PC)
    > Betrayal at Krondor (PC)

    --
    Arcana Dragon -==(UDIC)==-
    d++e++N++T+++Om-KAWML!34567'!S'!8!9!u+uC+uF+++uG-u
    LB®----uAnC+nH++nP+nI----nPT-nS+++nT----o---oE---xz
    http://www.phyton.dk/games.htm
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    mr bernard langham <spam.is.bad@mmkay.com> once tried to test me with:

    > In article
    > <42b6d410$0$34770$91cee783@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>,
    > koh@gmx.net says...
    >> Badbark wrote:
    >> > I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in
    >> > years to come?
    >>
    >
    > TOP 10:
    >
    > Planescape: Torment (PC)
    > Ultima Underworld (PC)
    > Final Fantasy J3 aka US6 (SNES)

    FF6 (Japan) was called "Final Fantasy III" in the US, for the SNES. FF3
    (Japan) was never released in the US. In the US for some whacko reason they
    decided to rename FF4 to be "Final Fantasy II" for the SNES, and then they
    skipped the FF5 release and then renamed FF6 as "Final Fantasy III" for the
    SNES. Then someone got off the crack pipe and realized that was just really
    confusing and so with FF7 the US started getting the same number system
    that they got in Japan. Which was why a lot of people in the US said "huh?
    FF7?! What happened to FF4-6?!"

    FF3 (J) is the only Final Fantasy game not available on the Playstation 1
    or 2, not counting "spin offs" like Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for
    Gamecube, and such. FF1 and FF2 were released as "Final Fantasy Origins"
    for PS1. FF5 and FF6 were released as "Final Fantasy Anthology" for PS1,
    and FF4 and Chrono Trigger were packaged as "Final Fantasy Chronicles" for
    PS1. Final fantasy 7 through 9 all debuted on the PS1, and FF10 and 10-2
    were for PS2. FF12 will come out on PS2 in Spring 2006. The next Final
    Fantasy game after that not counting spin offs like the ones for PSP will
    be on the PS3. If the PS3 maintains backwards compatibility, that machine
    will be capable of playing all the core-line Final Fantasy games FF1
    through FF13 (or whatever they call that one) except for FF3. They really
    need to release FF3 so we can have the complete collection. :)

    Final Fantasy 7 and 8 were also given PC releases (as well as the horribly
    named FF11, which is a MMORPG). Using an SNES emulator, you can also play
    FF1-6 on the PC, emulated. You can probably also play FF9 using a PS1
    emulator but I haven't tried this actually.

    > Chrono Cross (SNES)

    Chrono Cross was PS1. Chrono Trigger, which IMHO, was the way better game,
    was for SNES originally.

    > Fallout (PC)
    > Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64)

    The Zelda games are weird because they get classified as RPGs by a lot of
    people even though they are mosly action games with minor RPG elements. I'm
    not really sure what separates Zelda from Donkey Kong. I'm not saying they
    are bad games, I'm just not sure I would put them in the same genre.

    > World of Warcraft (PC)
    > Arx Fatalis (PC)
    > Gothic 2 (PC)
    > Betrayal at Krondor (PC)

    Your list resembles mine. :) You have excellent taste. :)

    --

    Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

    Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Raymond Martineau wrote:

    > >The OP is right, it was the poor 3D performance that killed off the
    > >Amiga.
    >
    > I wouldn't say that's the cause, as 3D renderers at the time relied on
    > processor power rather than graphics accelleration.

    Let me rephrase - the total system throughput of the low-end Amigas
    gave insufficient 3D performance. 3D performance != graphics
    acceleration. I agree that the Amiga lost because it never
    significantly upgraded the hardware.

    > BTW, Wolf3D and UU were games on a 2D map. Algorithms and hacks are easily
    > available to cut down on rendering time.

    Yes, I know they were really 2.5D games. The fact remains that the
    Amiga had nothing like Wolf3D until after the release of Doom on the
    PC, by which time the Amiga platform was already dying.

    > >The poor 3D performance, in turn, was caused by (intentionally?)
    > >criminally negligent management at Commodore.
    >
    > No, Commodore just simply gave up in the computer hardware business.

    After bankruptcy due to "management through negligence" for years, with
    the CEO's lining their pockets and refusing to invest. The shareholders
    of C= set up a class action against Mehdi Ali et al after Commodore
    folded, but AFAIK noone's ever been able to prove that the management,
    with Mehdi Ali in the lead, defrauded the stockholders, plundered the
    company, and intentionally drove it into bankruptcy, rather than just
    being incompetent.
    As an aside, if anyone knows what Mehdi does these days, I'd be
    interested in hearing it - the last rumours I heard, years ago, was
    that he'd bought a mansion in the Caribbean and was studiously ducking
    any questions about what really happened to Commodore.

    > While
    > their Commodore 64 and Amiga were successful enough, they did not release a
    > truly updated computer that improved the specifications of the computer.

    That's exactly it. They sold something like 20 million C64's, 7 million
    amigas - and the money just disappeared. The company did little or no
    development and invested hardly anything, it just haemorrhaged money.

    > Also, Wolf3D was generally large enough to require more than one floppy to
    > install. It would definatly not work in a normal Amiga envrionment, which
    > is mainly centered around floppy disks. (HDs at the time were much more
    > rare.)

    AFAI rememberr Wolf3D came on one single 5.25" PC floppy, meaning it
    would've fit on a single 3.5" Amiga floppy. But it's a moot point,
    many, perhaps most, Amiga games came on more than one floppy.
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Tue, 21 Jun
    2005 22:50:28 +0200, Anno Domini:

    >The OP is right, it was the poor 3D performance that killed off the
    >Amiga. A gaming platform without games like Wolfenstein, Ultima
    >Underworld and Doom was, well, doomed.
    >The poor 3D performance, in turn, was caused by (intentionally?)
    >criminally negligent management at Commodore.

    What did happen to Commodore in the end? Did they die a 1000 deaths as they
    deserved, or were they bought out by someone like Apple...?

    --
    A killfile is a friend for life.

    Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Nostromo" <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in message
    news:p51hb1hco3m6dqt6tc0jqsvc03616qj6dv@4ax.com...
    > Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Tue, 21 Jun
    > 2005 22:50:28 +0200, Anno Domini:
    >
    > >The OP is right, it was the poor 3D performance that killed off the
    > >Amiga. A gaming platform without games like Wolfenstein, Ultima
    > >Underworld and Doom was, well, doomed.
    > >The poor 3D performance, in turn, was caused by (intentionally?)
    > >criminally negligent management at Commodore.
    >
    > What did happen to Commodore in the end? Did they die a 1000 deaths as
    they
    > deserved, or were they bought out by someone like Apple...?

    They filed for voluntary liquidation in 1994 where they were bought out by
    Escom, as German computer manufacturer. Gateway Computers (the ones
    advertised on TV) bought the rights to the Amiga line in 1995 and then in
    2000 licensed the rights to 2 Gateway employees who formed Amiga, Inc (a
    German company)

    Nowadays they use their chipset and operating system to operate things like
    cellphones, PDAs, VLTs... IIRC the N-Gage (that handheld game
    machine/cellphone) is run by Amiga chips/software.
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    dangtranvu@netscape.net a écrit :
    > Another neat feature that Dungeonmaster has and which I don't recall
    > seeing in other games yet, is that your party members who are in the
    > rear would actually turn to face the monsters if those monsters have
    > managed to flank your party. So, you could actually issue combat orders
    > to the rear members and they would fight while the screen is still
    > facing forward.

    But still, the best feature in dungeon master is the roleplaying
    engine. Almost all stats are completely hidden to the player, including
    spell damage or effect. There's no "round" system per se, and the
    real-time is emulated with ticks of 1/6th of a second. There's also no
    visible "stat" on items you pick up, and depending on your skill (which
    you never totally know), you can or cannot perform actions with them.
    And that makes up for an unrivaled immersion.

    Sure you can train your character as a fighter by shouting warcries
    without a monster around, but you'll never be as strong with an axe as
    a supposedly inferior fighter who's very fond of them. Same goes with
    priests - some brew vastly powerful potions, other prefer casting
    protection spells. But you never see that with a stat, you just feel
    it. Only by building your party and giving your character unique
    personalities "Stamm wields AXE! He doesn't want that rapier, here,
    take it Syra", and sticking to it, could you become proficient enough
    to survive the myriad devilish traps and riddles scattered throught the
    dungeon.

    The sequel was even more enjoyable. Harder monsters, true, but more
    importantly brain-damaging difficult to understanding the way the
    dungeon works. It really feels like a conquest. I enjoyed (and still
    do) every single minute giving myself little quests such as, conquering
    a place to settle a camp to store items that I couldn't carry, or going
    to a special place to hunt worms for some food before resuming the main
    quest.

    In my opinion, it's still the #1 RPG ever for these little aspects that
    no other even tried to mimic.
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <42b863e7$0$1123$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>,
    oberhaeuptling_KEINEWERBUNG@freenet.de says...
    > dangtranvu@netscape.net schrieb:
    > > Another neat feature that Dungeonmaster has and which I don't recall
    > > seeing in other games yet, is that your party members who are in the
    > > rear would actually turn to face the monsters if those monsters have
    > > managed to flank your party. So, you could actually issue combat orders
    > > to the rear members and they would fight while the screen is still
    > > facing forward.

    Another great thing DM had over EOB was that there were four locations
    in a square where a fireball (or any object) could be. So if you
    looked down a one-square wide corridor and saw a fireball flying past,
    you could tell whether it was going right-to-left or left-to-right. In
    EOB, it would just appear and disappear, with no sense of motion or
    direction.

    > Wizardry 8 behaves in the same way. You must equip your party members
    > who are in the rear with long range weapons, otherwise they can only
    > attack the enemies who are trying to flank you.

    Wiz8 has the best CRPG combat ever, even if battles do get a bit long.

    - Gerry Quinn
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <a3vgb1phhvih3v4ltqabq4u2v6bb5d6706@4ax.com>, mike_noren2002
    @NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk says...
    > Thusly rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) Spake Unto All:
    >
    > >The biggest advantage VGA graphics had over the graphics of the Amiga,
    > >and which made the PC a better gaming machine in most people's minds,
    > >was that it supported 256 colour graphics.
    >
    > ...whereas the Amiga only could run in 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and 4096
    > colors. The Amiga actually had more colors than the early VGA
    > machines. Plus that the later models also had 256 color modes.

    4096 colour HAM mode wasn't really usable for games. But for most
    games, 64 colours at 320 x 200(256) was enough in those days.

    For strategy games, there was a bit of a limitation because to get a
    640-pixel wide screen you had to drop to 16 colours. (I can't remember
    whether these games used interlace to double the vertical height.) But
    320 isn't really enough if there's going to be lots of text and
    detailed icons.

    > The OP is right, it was the poor 3D performance that killed off the
    > Amiga. A gaming platform without games like Wolfenstein, Ultima
    > Underworld and Doom was, well, doomed.

    I agree. DOOM and Windows95 saw off the Amiga, with some help from
    Commodore and pirates.

    > The poor 3D performance, in turn, was caused by (intentionally?)
    > criminally negligent management at Commodore.

    That's nonsense IMO. The poor 3D performance was a result of hardware
    design. First, the use of bitplane graphics, in which the colour of
    each pixel is determined by a series of bits in different words, and
    adjacent bits in a word help determine the colour of adjacent pixels.
    Great for sprites, lousy for 3D texture-mapping.

    Also, the Motorola 680x0 chips were already lagging behind the Intel
    80x86 series. For a while this had no effect because the advantages of
    a faster CPU didn't show up when it was only a few times the the speed
    of RAM. But when the chips got fast enough and caches etc. were
    developed, the extra power started to show and the 680x0s were left in
    the dust.

    - Gerry Quinn
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Might and Magic VI, VII and VIII.

    First played VI six or seven years ago, am replaying it right now, and if
    I'm still alive and not too senile in ten years I'll probably be replaying
    one or another of them then.

    Granted that VIII is perhaps a bit weaker than the previous two, it still
    introduced some improvements and fresh ideas, and anyway completed that
    particular trilogy. But I suspect I like VIII more than most other players
    do. I love all three, really.

    N.
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "We also found that for university students, total time spent in the
    recent past
    on video games has a potential detrimental effect on grades."
    -- Anderson & Dill makes a Discovery, in 'Video Games and Aggressive
    Thoughts,
    Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life'. 2004.


    How true!!

    Sometimes I think that I only graduated because my 8m graphics card
    failed to support the games I really wanted to play. Thank god for
    technology, it created the addiction - but in the end it also resolved
    it.

    Cheers,

    Hawklan
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Gerry Quinn" <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:MPG.1d2345a6b961ee3a98a218@news.indigo.ie...
    > In article <42b863e7$0$1123$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>,
    > oberhaeuptling_KEINEWERBUNG@freenet.de says...
    > > dangtranvu@netscape.net schrieb:
    > > > Another neat feature that Dungeonmaster has and which I don't recall
    > > > seeing in other games yet, is that your party members who are in the
    > > > rear would actually turn to face the monsters if those monsters have
    > > > managed to flank your party. So, you could actually issue combat
    orders
    > > > to the rear members and they would fight while the screen is still
    > > > facing forward.
    >
    > Another great thing DM had over EOB was that there were four locations
    > in a square where a fireball (or any object) could be. So if you
    > looked down a one-square wide corridor and saw a fireball flying past,
    > you could tell whether it was going right-to-left or left-to-right. In
    > EOB, it would just appear and disappear, with no sense of motion or
    > direction.

    Also, EOB had the problem that objects in flight weren't as fast as the
    party could walk. Thus it was possible to run into the fireball you just
    fired down a corridor. DM didn't have that problem.
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thus spake "Auggie" <Imperial.Palace@Rome.com>, Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:15:04
    GMT, Anno Domini:

    >
    >"Nostromo" <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in message
    >news:p51hb1hco3m6dqt6tc0jqsvc03616qj6dv@4ax.com...
    >> Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Tue, 21 Jun
    >> 2005 22:50:28 +0200, Anno Domini:
    >>
    >> >The OP is right, it was the poor 3D performance that killed off the
    >> >Amiga. A gaming platform without games like Wolfenstein, Ultima
    >> >Underworld and Doom was, well, doomed.
    >> >The poor 3D performance, in turn, was caused by (intentionally?)
    >> >criminally negligent management at Commodore.
    >>
    >> What did happen to Commodore in the end? Did they die a 1000 deaths as
    >they
    >> deserved, or were they bought out by someone like Apple...?
    >
    >They filed for voluntary liquidation in 1994 where they were bought out by
    >Escom, as German computer manufacturer. Gateway Computers (the ones
    >advertised on TV) bought the rights to the Amiga line in 1995 and then in
    >2000 licensed the rights to 2 Gateway employees who formed Amiga, Inc (a
    >German company)
    >
    >Nowadays they use their chipset and operating system to operate things like
    >cellphones, PDAs, VLTs... IIRC the N-Gage (that handheld game
    >machine/cellphone) is run by Amiga chips/software.

    Cool - tx mate! ;-)

    --
    A killfile is a friend for life.

    Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> Spake Unto All:

    >>criminally negligent management at Commodore.
    >
    >What did happen to Commodore in the end? Did they die a 1000 deaths as they
    >deserved, or were they bought out by someone like Apple...?

    The _company_ died a thousand deaths, almost literally, but the
    management who'd got it to that state bought mansions in the
    caribbean, private jets, and spent the rest of their lives playing
    golf. Or so I'm told.

    C= was possibly the second worst run company I've ever seen, and I'm
    personally convinced honest incompetence is not sufficient explanation
    for its failure.

    "We also found that for university students, total time spent in the recent past
    on video games has a potential detrimental effect on grades."
    -- Anderson & Dill makes a Discovery, in 'Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts,
    Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life'. 2004.
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly stoic <foo@foo.com> Spake Unto All:

    >>I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >>to come?
    >
    >System Shock 2

    Descent to Undermountain.

    (And I've not even played it!)

    "We also found that for university students, total time spent in the recent past
    on video games has a potential detrimental effect on grades."
    -- Anderson & Dill makes a Discovery, in 'Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts,
    Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life'. 2004.
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On that special day, Auggie, (Imperial.Palace@Rome.com) said...

    > They filed for voluntary liquidation in 1994 where they were bought out by
    > Escom, as German computer manufacturer.

    Which went belly up as soon as Commodore had been acquired. It was like
    a curse.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_International
    (later portion)


    Gabriele Neukam

    Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


    --
    Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
    just so, at no cost.
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 22 Jun 2005 01:14:13 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64)
    >
    >The Zelda games are weird because they get classified as RPGs by a lot of
    >people even though they are mosly action games with minor RPG elements. I'm
    >not really sure what separates Zelda from Donkey Kong. I'm not saying they
    >are bad games, I'm just not sure I would put them in the same genre.

    In Zelda games you do get equipment and occasionally learn new abilities
    or skills, so it's a lot more like an RPG than it is like Donkey Kong.
    That said, it's certainly not as much of an RPG as even Chrono Trigger.
    (And the new one I'm playing, Legends of Four Swords on GC, is even less
    like an RPG.)
    --
    chuk
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    toadie05@sbcglobal.net wrote:
    >On 20 Jun 2005 03:37:59 -0700, "Badbark" <badbark@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>I was just wondering what CRPG's everyone will reminisce about in years
    >>to come? Baldurs Gate 2 is the game that I think I will have the
    >>fondest memories for. Its a few years old already but I still rate it
    >>as the best CRPG of all time. I must have completed it over a dozen
    >>times with every possible combination of NPC's and playing
    >>characters. I don't think I've completed any other RPG more than
    >>twice.
    >>I loved the story of Planescape Torment more but it didn't have same
    >>replay value as BG2. Other honourable mentions must go to the Gothics,
    >>Morrowind, the Fallouts, Wizardry 8 and going back a few years to the
    >>Eye of the Beholder games.
    >>
    >>PS. I never played any Ultima's until recently.
    >>
    >>Badbark
    >>"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd
    >>have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    >>But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
    >>- Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate physicist
    >
    >KOTOR
    >Baldur's Gate
    >NWN
    >
    >of course in 10yrs you'll be hard pushed to get any of these to run on
    >a PC (whatever they'll look like in 2015)

    I'm sure they'll be emus.
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <3ht881Firn18U1@news.dfncis.de>, "Markus Schäfer" <markus.schaefer@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
    >
    >"Gerry Quinn" <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    >news:MPG.1d2345a6b961ee3a98a218@news.indigo.ie...
    >> In article <42b863e7$0$1123$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>,
    >> oberhaeuptling_KEINEWERBUNG@freenet.de says...
    >> > dangtranvu@netscape.net schrieb:
    >> > > Another neat feature that Dungeonmaster has and which I don't recall
    >> > > seeing in other games yet, is that your party members who are in the
    >> > > rear would actually turn to face the monsters if those monsters have
    >> > > managed to flank your party. So, you could actually issue combat
    >orders
    >> > > to the rear members and they would fight while the screen is still
    >> > > facing forward.
    >>
    >> Another great thing DM had over EOB was that there were four locations
    >> in a square where a fireball (or any object) could be. So if you
    >> looked down a one-square wide corridor and saw a fireball flying past,
    >> you could tell whether it was going right-to-left or left-to-right. In
    >> EOB, it would just appear and disappear, with no sense of motion or
    >> direction.
    >
    >Also, EOB had the problem that objects in flight weren't as fast as the
    >party could walk. Thus it was possible to run into the fireball you just
    >fired down a corridor. DM didn't have that problem.
    >
    >

    Yes, DM did have that problem, a friend of mine nuked his party on a regular
    basis when he played it on my Atari 520st. :p

    Eric
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <Q%rue.116999$4M.84108@fe08.news.easynews.com>,
    ewhardingisnot@comcast.net says...
    > In article <3ht881Firn18U1@news.dfncis.de>, "Markus Schäfer" <markus.schaefer@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:

    > >Also, EOB had the problem that objects in flight weren't as fast as the
    > >party could walk. Thus it was possible to run into the fireball you just
    > >fired down a corridor. DM didn't have that problem.

    > Yes, DM did have that problem, a friend of mine nuked his party on a regular
    > basis when he played it on my Atari 520st. :p

    I don't recall getting nuked that way, but what you could do easily was
    send a fireball into a wall one square away and then walk into it.

    I don't remember ever catching up on unimpeded fireballs.

    - Gerry Quinn
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3j3jb1199ioncgf9v9mqtsdvi3adu5qcc4@4ax.com...
    > Thusly Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> Spake Unto All:
    >
    >>>criminally negligent management at Commodore.
    >>
    >>What did happen to Commodore in the end? Did they die a 1000 deaths as
    >>they
    >>deserved, or were they bought out by someone like Apple...?
    >
    > The _company_ died a thousand deaths, almost literally, but the
    > management who'd got it to that state bought mansions in the
    > caribbean, private jets, and spent the rest of their lives playing
    > golf. Or so I'm told.
    >
    > C= was possibly the second worst run company I've ever seen, and I'm

    The first being . . . ?

    My only experience with Commodore was the VIC-20, one of which I bought and
    owned for about a day and a half. (That was the soonest I could get it back
    to the store.) But I was very tempted by the Amiga when it came out.

    N.


    > personally convinced honest incompetence is not sufficient explanation
    > for its failure.
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    GSV Three Minds in a Can <GSV@quik.clara.co.uk> looked up from reading
    the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
    signs say:

    >Bitstring <42b99d06$0$15413$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, from
    >the wonderful person Niels Allerheiligen
    ><oberhaeuptling_KEINEWERBUNG@freenet.de> said
    >>Gerry Quinn schrieb:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> Wiz8 has the best CRPG combat ever, even if battles do get a bit long.
    >>>
    >>
    >>While the combat system in Wiz8 was nice, I would still say that The
    >>Temple of Elemental Evil had the *best* combat system.
    >
    >For third party view and micro-management I agree. However the problem
    >with ToEE is that nobody, not even a computer, can really figure all the
    >rules (I mean 'off balance against a flat footed opponent who is racial
    >enemy of a semi-specialist 3rd level Ranger Elf with Halitosis' .. ..
    >on the second holy day in lent; in passing with two handed wield...
    >Gimme a break!).

    TOEE used Dragon Poker rules?

    Xocyll
    --
    I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
    a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
    Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
    FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
  46. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "I'm Aahz."

    "Oz?"

    "No relation."


    "Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
    news:2eqmb15l6elg6il7svtcpce55mkbt7evla@4ax.com...
    > GSV Three Minds in a Can <GSV@quik.clara.co.uk> looked up from reading
    > the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
    > signs say:
    >
    > >Bitstring <42b99d06$0$15413$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, from
    > >the wonderful person Niels Allerheiligen
    > ><oberhaeuptling_KEINEWERBUNG@freenet.de> said
    > >>Gerry Quinn schrieb:
    > >>
    > >>>
    > >>> Wiz8 has the best CRPG combat ever, even if battles do get a bit long.
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>While the combat system in Wiz8 was nice, I would still say that The
    > >>Temple of Elemental Evil had the *best* combat system.
    > >
    > >For third party view and micro-management I agree. However the problem
    > >with ToEE is that nobody, not even a computer, can really figure all the
    > >rules (I mean 'off balance against a flat footed opponent who is racial
    > >enemy of a semi-specialist 3rd level Ranger Elf with Halitosis' .. ..
    > >on the second holy day in lent; in passing with two handed wield...
    > >Gimme a break!).
    >
    > TOEE used Dragon Poker rules?
    >
    > Xocyll
    > --
    > I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
    > a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
    > Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
    > FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
  47. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:48:25 +0200, "Markus Schäfer"
    <markus.schaefer@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:

    >
    >"Gerry Quinn" <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    >news:MPG.1d2345a6b961ee3a98a218@news.indigo.ie...
    >> In article <42b863e7$0$1123$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>,
    >> oberhaeuptling_KEINEWERBUNG@freenet.de says...
    >> > dangtranvu@netscape.net schrieb:
    >> > > Another neat feature that Dungeonmaster has and which I don't recall
    >> > > seeing in other games yet, is that your party members who are in the
    >> > > rear would actually turn to face the monsters if those monsters have
    >> > > managed to flank your party. So, you could actually issue combat
    >orders
    >> > > to the rear members and they would fight while the screen is still
    >> > > facing forward.
    >>
    >> Another great thing DM had over EOB was that there were four locations
    >> in a square where a fireball (or any object) could be. So if you
    >> looked down a one-square wide corridor and saw a fireball flying past,
    >> you could tell whether it was going right-to-left or left-to-right. In
    >> EOB, it would just appear and disappear, with no sense of motion or
    >> direction.
    >
    >Also, EOB had the problem that objects in flight weren't as fast as the
    >party could walk. Thus it was possible to run into the fireball you just
    >fired down a corridor. DM didn't have that problem.
    >

    IIRC, I managed to either out-run a few fireballs in DM, or come very close
    to doing so. However, being weighed down does make this a bit difficult as
    the characters get a small but noticable delay as they attempt to move.
    Usually, it involved an out-of-range monster launching a fireball down a
    corridor - it was a race to see if I could reach the corner before the
    fireball hit.

    Captive did a better job with projectile movement - 18 total sub-positions.
    Of course, isn't a classic because of its low coverage.
  48. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:09:09 +0100, Gerry Quinn
    <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> wrote:

    >In article <Q%rue.116999$4M.84108@fe08.news.easynews.com>,
    >ewhardingisnot@comcast.net says...
    >> In article <3ht881Firn18U1@news.dfncis.de>, "Markus Schäfer" <markus.schaefer@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
    >
    >> >Also, EOB had the problem that objects in flight weren't as fast as the
    >> >party could walk. Thus it was possible to run into the fireball you just
    >> >fired down a corridor. DM didn't have that problem.
    >
    >> Yes, DM did have that problem, a friend of mine nuked his party on a regular
    >> basis when he played it on my Atari 520st. :p
    >
    >I don't recall getting nuked that way, but what you could do easily was
    >send a fireball into a wall one square away and then walk into it.

    Why not fireball a wall at point blank? Iy's much faster. :)

    >I don't remember ever catching up on unimpeded fireballs.

    Try moving forward on the second frame, or during launch. The characters
    move one tile, but the fireball moves just a sub-tile: instant self injury.

    Other than that, it is a bit more difficult to bushwhack yourself.
  49. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thusly Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> Spake Unto All:

    >>enema of a semi-specialist 3rd level Ranger Elf with Halitosis' .. ..
    >>on the second holy day in lent; in passing with two handed wield...
    >>Gimme a break!).
    >
    >TOEE used Dragon Poker rules?

    Hell yes.

    BTW, have you checked your system clock lately?


    "We also found that for university students, total time spent in the recent past
    on video games has a potential detrimental effect on grades."
    -- Anderson & Dill makes a Discovery, in 'Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts,
    Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life'. 2004.
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