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RPGs that have made a difference in my gaming history

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Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 27, 2005 5:02:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

More or less in order I played them:
1986: Temple of Apshai (my first RPG)
1987: Wizardry 1 (my first real RPG)
1988 or so: Ultima 2 (I beat my college friends and finished it first!)
1989 or so: Pool of Radiance (my first D&D RPG after having played pnp
D&D for 2 years)
1990 or so: Hero's Quest (later renamed Quest for Glory, you could play
the game three times and have different stories with the 3 different
characters)
90s: Betrayal at Krondor (first RPG with a real emphasis in story,
besides I had just read the books)
95?: Arena (I could make my own spells, nice!)
98?: Baldur's Gate (my first RPG with inter-PC interactions)
00: Everquest (first game where I could actually roleplay! as in
becoming someone else and seeing the world through his eyes. I'll
always play 1st person view in MMORPGs)
02: Planescape Torment (played it late, inter-PC interactions to the
max)
03: Kotor (in Xbox) (great story)
04: City of Heroes (best PC development system I've played to date)

Those are only the games that for one reason or another have made an
impact in my memory. I've played miriad other RPGs but they're just
rehashes of one of the ones I mentioned
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 27, 2005 5:12:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

What, no Fallout?
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 27, 2005 5:27:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

never played it, it is *my* list, not the ultimate list :) 
Related resources
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 28, 2005 1:57:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 27 Jun 2005 13:02:19 -0700, "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>More or less in order I played them:

>1990 or so: Hero's Quest (later renamed Quest for Glory, you could play
>the game three times and have different stories with the 3 different
>characters)

This only became predominant later in the series (3-5), when gameplay
elements invloved character-class specific triggers. #5 even had a
scoring system based on how well you roleplayed (e.g. warriors get points
for nailing every hostile unique and species, thieves get points for
stealth, etc.)

In the first two games, playing a thief with magical ability allowed you to
play the whole story in one pass as you coule reload and try the alternate
solution. (Thieves were the only class that access to all skills.)
Alternativly, you could just modify the save files directly to gain all
skills - values were stored unencrypted.

>90s: Betrayal at Krondor (first RPG with a real emphasis in story,
>besides I had just read the books)

As above, you can modify saved games to speed up skill gain.

>Those are only the games that for one reason or another have made an
>impact in my memory. I've played miriad other RPGs but they're just
>rehashes of one of the ones I mentioned

I noticed you didn't list Nethack... is it not your flavour, or is there
another reason?
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 28, 2005 3:45:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> once tried to test me with:

> never played it, it is *my* list, not the ultimate list :) 

(Fallout)

You definitely should play it. It's well worth your time.


--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 28, 2005 10:07:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

never played it, don't even know what it is.
Also, you're right about Hero's Quest, I did what you said, played a
rogue and got all the skills. I still enjoyed that game quite a lot
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 28, 2005 2:46:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

wolfing wrote:

> More or less in order I played them:
> 1986: Temple of Apshai (my first RPG)
> 1987: Wizardry 1 (my first real RPG)
> 1988 or so: Ultima 2 (I beat my college friends and finished it first!)
> 1989 or so: Pool of Radiance (my first D&D RPG after having played pnp
> D&D for 2 years)
> 1990 or so: Hero's Quest (later renamed Quest for Glory, you could play
> the game three times and have different stories with the 3 different
> characters)
> 90s: Betrayal at Krondor (first RPG with a real emphasis in story,
> besides I had just read the books)
> 95?: Arena (I could make my own spells, nice!)
> 98?: Baldur's Gate (my first RPG with inter-PC interactions)
> 00: Everquest (first game where I could actually roleplay! as in
> becoming someone else and seeing the world through his eyes. I'll
> always play 1st person view in MMORPGs)
> 02: Planescape Torment (played it late, inter-PC interactions to the
> max)
> 03: Kotor (in Xbox) (great story)
> 04: City of Heroes (best PC development system I've played to date)

What no Gothic, Fallout, or Ultima IV?
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 28, 2005 2:51:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Didn't play Gothic (tried it but couldn't get pass the interface).
Didn't play Fallout. I think I played Ultima IV but wasn't it kinda
like the same thing as Ultima III?
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 28, 2005 8:28:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

James Garvin wrote:

> wolfing wrote:
>
>> More or less in order I played them:
>> 1986: Temple of Apshai (my first RPG)
>> 1987: Wizardry 1 (my first real RPG)
>> 1988 or so: Ultima 2 (I beat my college friends and finished it first!)
>> 1989 or so: Pool of Radiance (my first D&D RPG after having played pnp
>> D&D for 2 years)
>> 1990 or so: Hero's Quest (later renamed Quest for Glory, you could play
>> the game three times and have different stories with the 3 different
>> characters)
>> 90s: Betrayal at Krondor (first RPG with a real emphasis in story,
>> besides I had just read the books)
>> 95?: Arena (I could make my own spells, nice!)
>> 98?: Baldur's Gate (my first RPG with inter-PC interactions)
>> 00: Everquest (first game where I could actually roleplay! as in
>> becoming someone else and seeing the world through his eyes. I'll
>> always play 1st person view in MMORPGs)
>> 02: Planescape Torment (played it late, inter-PC interactions to the
>> max)
>> 03: Kotor (in Xbox) (great story)
>> 04: City of Heroes (best PC development system I've played to date)
>
>
> What no Gothic, Fallout, or Ultima IV?

Ultima2 was closer to 1983. With Ultima 3 addiction, I failed chemistry
can calculus in freshman year. 1984-85.

Gawd-damn.

CH
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 29, 2005 2:38:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> once tried to test me with:

> Didn't play Gothic (tried it but couldn't get pass the interface).
> Didn't play Fallout. I think I played Ultima IV but wasn't it kinda
> like the same thing as Ultima III?

Ultima 4 was vastly different than Ultima 3. Ultima 4 was probably the
first (or certainly one of the first) RPG game to give you actual moral
choices you could make. This was the first game in the series that dealt
with the virtues.

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 29, 2005 11:22:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Oh in that case I didn't play Ultima IV
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 29, 2005 11:38:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

but I played it in 1987. In 1982 I didn't even know what a computer
was :) 
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 29, 2005 7:24:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>
> Thusly Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com> Spake Unto All:
>
> >Ultima 4 was vastly different than Ultima 3. Ultima 4 was probably the
> >first (or certainly one of the first) RPG game to give you actual moral
> >choices you could make. This was the first game in the series that dealt
> >with the virtues.
>
> Yeah, it was a complete new-age horror.
>
> I never completed it, because once'd I'd become perfect in one aspect,
> and started travel to the next shrine, I'd always get jumped by some
> random monsters. And I'd lay an area effect spell on them which, as I
> was so godly, would easily kill them all. And as the game resolved
> combat monster-for-monster, the last monsters would break, symbolized
> by turning yellow on the screen, yet be killed as the turn resolved.
> And as killing a fleeing monster was Immoral, and Unbecoming An
> Avatar, I'd lose my perfectness and have to plod back to the temple
> and start over. And over, and over, and over, and over.

How odd. I never saw monsters turn yellow (I played the Apple
version), and I don't remember there even *being* area affect
spells. And I'm certain monsters never flee until they take a
certain amount of damage, so you can't lose a virtue with just
one spell. And only one virtue is lost in this way (Honor), so
you're not really starting over.

(checking my U4 notes...)

Ahh, there is one area affect spell: tremor. Which uses a very
rare and hard to get reagent, so I can't understand why anyone
would waste it on groups of weak monsters. And if you really
insist on doing this, you can just leave Honor for last.

--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk@aol.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/
June 29, 2005 8:27:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120055932.389659.196340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> but I played it in 1987. In 1982 I didn't even know what a computer
> was :) 
>

I think ultima 5 was one of the better later Ultima's but i did like the
Black Gate Episode.

Flop
June 30, 2005 2:48:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Wed, 29 Jun
2005 11:44:16 +0200, Anno Domini:

>Ultima II and III were great games, but IV made me leave the entire
>series in disgust.

So, what is the best Ultima of them all? VII (Black Gate?) I hear some say,
but I d/led it last year from some abandonware site with all the plugins &
it was just too damn hard on the eyes & the brain. Seems like I had to be a
hippie fanboy 1-6 lover to appreciate or understand any of it; no decent
intro, no backstory, just some murder & a really poor UI/dialogue tree by
today's standards. Oh well, to each their own...*sigh*...

--
A killfile is a friend for life.

Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 2:48:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:48:33 +1000, Nostromo wrote:

> So, what is the best Ultima of them all? VII (Black Gate?)

I'm the only person who really liked Ultima 8 (Pagan). :p 

M.

PS. Hey, I work for one of the designers/coders of Ultima 3! But I still
think 8 was great.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 2:48:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> Spake Unto All:

>it was just too damn hard on the eyes & the brain. Seems like I had to be a
>hippie fanboy 1-6 lover to appreciate or understand any of it; no decent
>intro, no backstory, just some murder & a really poor UI/dialogue tree by
>today's standards.

You've just described the vast majority of olden rpg's. Script and art
was often/usually made by the programmer, with a budget which today
would hardly cover a week of development, and they were designed to
run on machines which were inferior in processing power and storage to
a present digital camera.

I've tried on occasion to go back to those I remember most fondly, but
they just don't cut it. They were great for their day but time has, as
a rule, not been kind to them.

Like you say, too hard on the eyes and brain.

--
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky.
But we never will.
June 30, 2005 6:52:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

> I think ultima 5 was one of the better later Ultima's but i did like the
> Black Gate Episode.

I started with Ultima 5 and really loved it. Ultima 6 didn't have the
same appeal for some reason. I think it might have been the changes in
the interface but never got into 6.

No one has mentioned Ultima Underworld. That was a really really cool
game. IMO it was one of the very best. Arx Fatalis was really good
too, but I finished it before all the patches were out and I remember a
few problems with the interface.

Diablo 2 was good.
June 30, 2005 7:00:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

And Dungeon Siege
June 30, 2005 8:07:35 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Michael Vondung" <mvondung@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:16fppbqp0bdbo.yx4twotrq6pe.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:48:33 +1000, Nostromo wrote:
>
>> So, what is the best Ultima of them all? VII (Black Gate?)
>
> I'm the only person who really liked Ultima 8 (Pagan). :p 
>
> M.
>
> PS. Hey, I work for one of the designers/coders of Ultima 3! But I still
> think 8 was great.



No you are not alone...I liked U8 as well as U7 and U4.

RPG's that were my favorites & made a difference in my gaming history were
Apshai, Shadowgate, Ultimas, Bard's Tales, Dungeonmaster(I & II/Chaos), The
EOB's, M&M 6&7, Wiz 7&8, EScrolls(all) & P/scape Torment. I also enjoyed
Wizards & Warriors and recently uninstalled Dungeon Lords that I thought
was an abomination.

D.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 10:14:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Diablo 2 is not really a 'massive' online multiplayer rpg, it's just a
MORPG (I havent' seen a Diablo 2 server with 2000 people playing it,
that's the 'massive' part missing).
City of Heroes is a MMORPG where you play as a hero, a very fun game
with the best (for my taste) character creation/development system. I
really loved that game and probably would still be playing it if my
guild hadn't decided to go to EQ2 (which we played for like 2 months
and then everybody left) *grumble*
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 10:38:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I believe there is an open-source remake that is alot more Pentium
IV/Athlon 64 generation friendly, but based on the same plot and
interface. IIRC its called "Exodus" and is basically Ultima VII parts 1
& 2.

Although its not my favorite RPG of all time, I think a reasonable
person can make an argument that it is one of the best if not the best.
Baldur's Gate II takes the honour IMHO, closely followed by Planescape
and Fallout I & II. Alas Black Isle, I knew thee well... :( 
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 2:11:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "Eden R" <edroy@zip.com.au> Spake Unto All:

>I beg to differ,
>
>I think Ultima IV was arguably the greatest RPG of all time.
>
>Big statement: consider the drought we are in now and the games we have
>played, even
>games I like such as NWN and BG series are not in the early Ultima league
>(probably up to Ultima VIII)

NWN is pointless hack-n-slash puke (at least the original campaign -
that was the worst rpg I've ever played, and put me off trying any
expansions). BG1 similarly is pointless hack-n-slash puke.
BG2 is a good game, admittedly, but there's plenty of other good rpg's
in recent history, notably Planescape: Torment, Gothic 1 & 2, KOTOR,
Morrowind, Kult, Fallout 1 & 2, Darkstone, Diablo 2.

Ultima IV, however, simply is not one of them. Unless you've always
dreamed of roleplaying a hippie in fantasyland.


--
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky.
But we never will.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 3:31:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

2000 people at the same time? Only I've seen is like 20 or so, but hey
I played it like 5 years ago
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 4:19:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Konrad Gaertner wrote:

> Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>
>>Thusly Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com> Spake Unto All:
>>
>>
>>>Ultima 4 was vastly different than Ultima 3. Ultima 4 was probably the
>>>first (or certainly one of the first) RPG game to give you actual moral
>>>choices you could make. This was the first game in the series that dealt
>>>with the virtues.
>>
>>Yeah, it was a complete new-age horror.
>>
>>I never completed it, because once'd I'd become perfect in one aspect,
>>and started travel to the next shrine, I'd always get jumped by some
>>random monsters. And I'd lay an area effect spell on them which, as I
>>was so godly, would easily kill them all. And as the game resolved
>>combat monster-for-monster, the last monsters would break, symbolized
>>by turning yellow on the screen, yet be killed as the turn resolved.
>>And as killing a fleeing monster was Immoral, and Unbecoming An
>>Avatar, I'd lose my perfectness and have to plod back to the temple
>>and start over. And over, and over, and over, and over.
>
>
> How odd. I never saw monsters turn yellow (I played the Apple
> version), and I don't remember there even *being* area affect
> spells. And I'm certain monsters never flee until they take a
> certain amount of damage, so you can't lose a virtue with just
> one spell. And only one virtue is lost in this way (Honor), so
> you're not really starting over.
>
> (checking my U4 notes...)
>
> Ahh, there is one area affect spell: tremor. Which uses a very
> rare and hard to get reagent, so I can't understand why anyone
> would waste it on groups of weak monsters. And if you really
> insist on doing this, you can just leave Honor for last.
>

I don't remember that stuff either. On the other hand, I've completely
forgotten the game. Anyhow, I quite this one early as it was so damned
annoying to play with reagents and such that I just said "no."

CH
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 4:21:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine wrote:

> Thusly Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> Spake Unto All:
>
>
>>it was just too damn hard on the eyes & the brain. Seems like I had to be a
>>hippie fanboy 1-6 lover to appreciate or understand any of it; no decent
>>intro, no backstory, just some murder & a really poor UI/dialogue tree by
>>today's standards.
>
>
> You've just described the vast majority of olden rpg's. Script and art
> was often/usually made by the programmer, with a budget which today
> would hardly cover a week of development, and they were designed to
> run on machines which were inferior in processing power and storage to
> a present digital camera.
>
> I've tried on occasion to go back to those I remember most fondly, but
> they just don't cut it. They were great for their day but time has, as
> a rule, not been kind to them.
>
> Like you say, too hard on the eyes and brain.
>

For me, the lack of script and backstory is what made an RPG. I HATE
HATE HATE these new, over-scripted monstrosities. Just lemme hack a few
monsters and explore a bit, eh?

CH
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 5:16:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

.... there came a great "Diane" <phonyaddress@invaliddomain.com>
flying, and he bore tidings beyond hope, crying:

>
>"Michael Vondung" <mvondung@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:16fppbqp0bdbo.yx4twotrq6pe.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:48:33 +1000, Nostromo wrote:
>>
>>> So, what is the best Ultima of them all? VII (Black Gate?)
>>
>> I'm the only person who really liked Ultima 8 (Pagan). :p 
>>
>> M.
>>
>> PS. Hey, I work for one of the designers/coders of Ultima 3! But I still
>> think 8 was great.
>
>
>
>No you are not alone...I liked U8 as well as U7 and U4.

so did I. U8 was great after the page, though not as perfect as U7 of
course.
--
"This is an extremely primitive and paranoid culture."
(James T. Kirk on 20th century America, Star Trek IV)
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 5:20:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

.... there came a great "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> flying, and he
bore tidings beyond hope, crying:

>More or less in order I played them:
>1986: Temple of Apshai (my first RPG)
>1987: Wizardry 1 (my first real RPG)
>1988 or so: Ultima 2 (I beat my college friends and finished it first!)
>1989 or so: Pool of Radiance (my first D&D RPG after having played pnp
>D&D for 2 years)
>1990 or so: Hero's Quest (later renamed Quest for Glory, you could play
>the game three times and have different stories with the 3 different
>characters)
>90s: Betrayal at Krondor (first RPG with a real emphasis in story,
>besides I had just read the books)
>95?: Arena (I could make my own spells, nice!)
>98?: Baldur's Gate (my first RPG with inter-PC interactions)
>00: Everquest (first game where I could actually roleplay! as in
>becoming someone else and seeing the world through his eyes. I'll
>always play 1st person view in MMORPGs)
>02: Planescape Torment (played it late, inter-PC interactions to the
>max)
>03: Kotor (in Xbox) (great story)
>04: City of Heroes (best PC development system I've played to date)
>
>Those are only the games that for one reason or another have made an
>impact in my memory. I've played miriad other RPGs but they're just
>rehashes of one of the ones I mentioned

apart from those mentioned I would add two:

Ultima Underworld: first game to introduce "real-looking" 1st person
3D (not just flat services meeting at right angles)

Diablo 2: first massive online multiplayer rpg

uhm ... what is "City of Heroes" ? did I miss something here?

--
"This is an extremely primitive and paranoid culture."
(James T. Kirk on 20th century America, Star Trek IV)
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 9:32:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

.... there came a great "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> flying, and he
bore tidings beyond hope, crying:

>Diablo 2 is not really a 'massive' online multiplayer rpg, it's just a
>MORPG (I havent' seen a Diablo 2 server with 2000 people playing it,
>that's the 'massive' part missing).

? you are kidding, right ?
--
"This is an extremely primitive and paranoid culture."
(James T. Kirk on 20th century America, Star Trek IV)
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 10:45:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Cole Turner" <cole@nospam> wrote in message
news:l5l7c1h9qmcqq76q81lsv020dcq2782vv5@4ax.com...

> Diablo 2: first massive online multiplayer rpg

Didn't Ultima Online and EverQuest predate Diablo 2 by a couple of years?
Or am I missing something here?
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 10:46:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Michael Vondung wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:48:33 +1000, Nostromo wrote:
>
>> So, what is the best Ultima of them all? VII (Black Gate?)
>
> I'm the only person who really liked Ultima 8 (Pagan). :p 
>
> M.
>
> PS. Hey, I work for one of the designers/coders of Ultima 3! But I
> still think 8 was great.

I really loved the games the engine came from . . . but U8--nah. You're
weird, MV. :-)

--
chainbreaker
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
June 30, 2005 10:48:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Nostromo wrote:
> Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Wed, 29
> Jun 2005 11:44:16 +0200, Anno Domini:
>
>> Ultima II and III were great games, but IV made me leave the entire
>> series in disgust.
>
> So, what is the best Ultima of them all? VII (Black Gate?) I hear
> some say, but I d/led it last year from some abandonware site with
> all the plugins & it was just too damn hard on the eyes & the brain.
> Seems like I had to be a hippie fanboy 1-6 lover to appreciate or
> understand any of it; no decent intro, no backstory, just some murder
> & a really poor UI/dialogue tree by today's standards. Oh well, to
> each their own...*sigh*...

You needed to have been there at the time, Nos.

Right now, I couldn't stand to play any of them either, I don't think. At
the time, though, they were great.

--
chainbreaker
June 30, 2005 11:02:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Thu, 30 Jun
2005 10:11:39 +0200, Anno Domini:

>Thusly "Eden R" <edroy@zip.com.au> Spake Unto All:
>
>>I beg to differ,
>>
>>I think Ultima IV was arguably the greatest RPG of all time.
>>
>>Big statement: consider the drought we are in now and the games we have
>>played, even
>>games I like such as NWN and BG series are not in the early Ultima league
>>(probably up to Ultima VIII)
>
>NWN is pointless hack-n-slash puke (at least the original campaign -
>that was the worst rpg I've ever played, and put me off trying any
>expansions). BG1 similarly is pointless hack-n-slash puke.
>BG2 is a good game, admittedly, but there's plenty of other good rpg's
>in recent history, notably Planescape: Torment, Gothic 1 & 2, KOTOR,
>Morrowind, Kult, Fallout 1 & 2, Darkstone, Diablo 2.
>
>Ultima IV, however, simply is not one of them. Unless you've always
>dreamed of roleplaying a hippie in fantasyland.

Goddam hippie scum!!!

Actually, there's a great book around the hippie movement of the late
60s/early 70s called Ringolevio - highly recommended!

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July 1, 2005 12:00:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Wed, 29 Jun
2005 22:05:10 +0200, Anno Domini:

>Thusly Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> Spake Unto All:
>
>>it was just too damn hard on the eyes & the brain. Seems like I had to be a
>>hippie fanboy 1-6 lover to appreciate or understand any of it; no decent
>>intro, no backstory, just some murder & a really poor UI/dialogue tree by
>>today's standards.
>
>You've just described the vast majority of olden rpg's. Script and art
>was often/usually made by the programmer, with a budget which today
>would hardly cover a week of development, and they were designed to
>run on machines which were inferior in processing power and storage to
>a present digital camera.
>
>I've tried on occasion to go back to those I remember most fondly, but
>they just don't cut it. They were great for their day but time has, as
>a rule, not been kind to them.
>
>Like you say, too hard on the eyes and brain.

Just d/led it & Exult overnight & am trying again...man, I can't tell you
what it's doin to my brain on a 19" LCD...argghhhhh#@#$%$#$%^#!!!

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Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 3:56:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Paul Fedorenko" <pfedorenko@look.ca> once tried to test me with:

>
> "Cole Turner" <cole@nospam> wrote in message
> news:l5l7c1h9qmcqq76q81lsv020dcq2782vv5@4ax.com...
>
>> Diablo 2: first massive online multiplayer rpg
>
> Didn't Ultima Online and EverQuest predate Diablo 2 by a couple of
> years? Or am I missing something here?

Yes, both of them did. Ultima Online was 1997. EverQuest was 1999. And
Diablo 2 was 2000. This is according to MobyGames.

And the only thing "massive" about D2 was the chat room spam.

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 3:58:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

burnsdavidj@yahoo.com once tried to test me with:

> I believe there is an open-source remake that is alot more Pentium
> IV/Athlon 64 generation friendly, but based on the same plot and
> interface. IIRC its called "Exodus" and is basically Ultima VII parts 1
> & 2.

Exult I think is what you're referring to.

> Although its not my favorite RPG of all time, I think a reasonable
> person can make an argument that it is one of the best if not the best.
> Baldur's Gate II takes the honour IMHO, closely followed by Planescape
> and Fallout I & II. Alas Black Isle, I knew thee well... :( 

Yah, pitty about Black Isle / Interplay. Well at least we still got
Bioware. :) 

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 4:44:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9685C0C6CD29Aknight37m@130.133.1.4...

>>> Diablo 2: first massive online multiplayer rpg
>>
>> Didn't Ultima Online and EverQuest predate Diablo 2 by a couple of
>> years? Or am I missing something here?
>
> Yes, both of them did. Ultima Online was 1997. EverQuest was 1999. And
> Diablo 2 was 2000. This is according to MobyGames.

I thought as much... first massive online RPG my ass.

> And the only thing "massive" about D2 was the chat room spam.

Well... It had a few other things in common... Wankers camping spawn zones
in PVP areas to kill hapless players when they came back into a game... the
mindless drive to find more and more monsters so as to get more and more
loot so you could buy better equipment and kill bigger and nastier monsters
and get better loot to buy better weapons to kill more monsters and get
more...

Can you tell I'm not a big fan of MMO games?

That said, I have to agree with you.Diablo 2 was as much an MMO as, say...
Quake II or Half-life.
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 10:40:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:r087c15pj4o1udui8jhais293p1fi6ajtk@4ax.com...
> Thusly "Eden R" <edroy@zip.com.au> Spake Unto All:
>
>>I beg to differ,
>>
>>I think Ultima IV was arguably the greatest RPG of all time.
>>
>>Big statement: consider the drought we are in now and the games we have
>>played, even
>>games I like such as NWN and BG series are not in the early Ultima league
>>(probably up to Ultima VIII)

I used them as examples of modern day gaming and very successful in the
market
>
> NWN is pointless hack-n-slash puke (at least the original campaign -
> that was the worst rpg I've ever played, and put me off trying any
> expansions). BG1 similarly is pointless hack-n-slash puke.
> BG2 is a good game, admittedly, but there's plenty of other good rpg's
> in recent history, notably Planescape: Torment, Gothic 1 & 2, KOTOR,
> Morrowind, Kult, Fallout 1 & 2, Darkstone, Diablo 2.

The fact that you say that NWN/BG are hack and slash but then put forward
KOTOR and especially Diablo
as good rpg's confuses me greatly as Diablo though fun had no story at all
and is probably not even a RPG

Planescape which I think is one of the greats as well as the Fallout series
are good examples...
unfortunately I believe they are good examples for my argument that rich
games which make you choose what being ahero and the difference between good
and evil are in the direct lineage of Ultima IV

Your argument seems to boil down to you were frustrated that you couldn't
use on area affect spell
without losing some honor :) 
>
> Ultima IV, however, simply is not one of them. Unless you've always
> dreamed of roleplaying a hippie in fantasyland.
>
Hardly...they are the same challenges examined in literature for thousands
of years...Lancelot though
having many virtues lacked Fidelity or Loyalty and therefore failed to be a
true paragon of virtue
as Galahad later embodied. Same concept and nothing at all to do with
hippies

Cheers
EdenR
>
> --



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Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 10:50:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Well we're just saying that 'massive' means # of people playing in the
same world at the same time (or ability to do so). It still is a fussy
concept, so far the difference has been clear. Either a game supports
about a max of some 64 (like playing Quake online or Team fortress,
Diablo 2, etc) or it supports 1000+. When a game comes that supports
250 people online... is it massive? what about 125? When does
'massive' start?

On the guildwar thing. Isn't $70 too much? I'm sure you can find a
game in a store for some $40 which includes of course the CD key (or
are you talking about canadian dollars maybe?)
July 1, 2005 11:39:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com>, 30 Jun 2005 11:31:30 -0700, Anno
Domini:

>2000 people at the same time? Only I've seen is like 20 or so, but hey
>I played it like 5 years ago

You really are setting out to make a <beep> out of yourself, ey?

The most ppl I have ever *seen* in the one place in a mmog is a few dozen &
they weren't playing I assure you. Most mmog parties are limited to 6-8,
period. So, given you could chat with 100s/1000s of players in D2 anyway,
what's the farkin diff? Might as well call is a mmog...

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Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 11:39:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> once tried to test me with:

> The most ppl I have ever *seen* in the one place in a mmog is a few
> dozen & they weren't playing I assure you. Most mmog parties are
> limited to 6-8, period. So, given you could chat with 100s/1000s of
> players in D2 anyway, what's the farkin diff? Might as well call is a
> mmog...

But it's not. It just isn't. I can't help it if your experience with a true
MMORPG was so limited. I've been in PvP raids in WoW that had a couple of
hundred players involved. In the end game it's all about raid-level
instance dungeons with upwards of 40 or so participants. Battlegrounds has
a bunch (haven't tried it yet) of players on each side.

In D2 the most you'd have is 8 players in any one game, and most of that
was for 10 minute cow-runs with people you didn't even know and wouldn't
see again much less care about. Of course, sometimes you could join in with
friends or maybe agd regulars, but max was 8 at a time.

D2 wasn't even the first online RPG, much less massive online RPG. Diablo 1
of course, preceeded it, but there were other games that had online play
even before Diablo. The original Neverwinter Nights on AOL. Dark Sun
Online. Various rogue-likes. Meridian 59. Not to mention tons of text-based
RPG "MUDs".

I would rate Meridian 59 the first MMORPG, or maybe Ultima Online if
Meridian isn't "massive" enough.

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
July 1, 2005 11:48:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake Sarah Jaernecke <nightfire.udic@web.de>, Thu, 30 Jun 2005
21:19:51 +0200, Anno Domini:

>8) Morrowind: Too many games put you on rails and never let you leave
>the beaten path. I love a good, tight story, but I also love exploration
>and MW was the first game since U6/7 (and, to a significantly lesser
>degree, the BG games) that gave me the impression that I was truly
>playing in a big wide world instead a tiny little stage. Yeah, the world
>was static and the NPCs were cardboard cutouts. MW had its flaws, no
>doubt about it, but it also got many things right: the editor, the
>learning-by-doing skillsystem, alchemy, home-made spells and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>enchantments, exploration, decorating houses, the lore and history (even
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>if it doesn't play much of a role in the game) ... and it was
>graphically beautiful. I have high hopes for Oblivion. Too bad it
>doesn't take place in the Morrowind province, though -- those Dunmer
>have grown on me, and I despise the "in'wah" Imperials. :p 

Sarah, you had until you went & undid everything that's *wrong* with MW with
those lines above. Sorry, credibility out the door faster than Kramer comes
in! ;-p

And no mention of Fallout/Torment/Gothic kind of doesn't help...

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Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 1:08:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

.... there came a great "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> flying, and he
bore tidings beyond hope, crying:

>2000 people at the same time? Only I've seen is like 20 or so, but hey
>I played it like 5 years ago

I now understand the confusion - I meant playing the game online at
the same time, but not being in the same game. of course there weren't
2000 in one game, however the numbers on one server were a lot larger
--
"This is an extremely primitive and paranoid culture."
(James T. Kirk on 20th century America, Star Trek IV)
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 5:05:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <6fp8c111qv5c1hv0294ab4suqeqaf8942g@4ax.com>,
nostromo@spamfree.net.au says...
> Thus spake "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com>, 30 Jun 2005 11:31:30 -0700, Anno
> Domini:
>
> >2000 people at the same time? Only I've seen is like 20 or so, but hey
> >I played it like 5 years ago
>
> You really are setting out to make a <beep> out of yourself, ey?
>
> The most ppl I have ever *seen* in the one place in a mmog is a few dozen &
> they weren't playing I assure you.

You'll see a few dozenm playing in the Ironforge Auction House in WOW.

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 5:49:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
>Sarah Jaernecke <nightfire.udic@web.de> wrote:
>> ... MW had its flaws, no
>>doubt about it, but it also got many things right: the editor, the
>>learning-by-doing skillsystem, alchemy, home-made spells and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>enchantments, exploration, decorating houses, the lore and history (even
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>if it doesn't play much of a role in the game) ...
>
>Sarah, you had until you went & undid everything that's *wrong* with MW with
>those lines above.

Well, the skill system, alchemy and spell crafting were far too easily
abused, and are only enjoyable parts of the game if your the kind of
person that likes using character editors, the decorating houses and the
lore and history parts of the game worked just fine. If they weren't
something you enjoyed, you could just ingore them and your gaming
experience wouldn't be harmed by their presence in the game.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/rridge/
db //
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 7:09:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "Eden R" <edroy@zip.com.au> Spake Unto All:

>> NWN is pointless hack-n-slash puke (at least the original campaign -
>> that was the worst rpg I've ever played, and put me off trying any
>> expansions). BG1 similarly is pointless hack-n-slash puke.
>> BG2 is a good game, admittedly, but there's plenty of other good rpg's
>> in recent history, notably Planescape: Torment, Gothic 1 & 2, KOTOR,
>> Morrowind, Kult, Fallout 1 & 2, Darkstone, Diablo 2.
>
>The fact that you say that NWN/BG are hack and slash but then put forward
>KOTOR and especially Diablo
>as good rpg's confuses me greatly as Diablo though fun had no story at all
>and is probably not even a RPG

KOTOR had good story, but Diablo was just fun. It was shallow, but it
didn't have pretentions of being anything else.

Not even an rpg? What is the official definition of rpgs these days?

>unfortunately I believe they are good examples for my argument that rich
>games which make you choose what being ahero and the difference between good
>and evil are in the direct lineage of Ultima IV

Not that you had any such choice in Ultima IV. And that D&D predates
Ultima IV. As do the concept of free choice, and the duality of good
and evil. But again, I do not see that you had choice in Ultima IV,
what you had was a lot of pseudoreligious twaddle.
In Ultima III, I could rob merchants and kill townspeople, so IMO I
had more choice there than in Ultima IV, where, if I wanted to
complete the game, I was coerced into roleplaying a religiously
motivated pacifist serving... yes, what WAS I serving, really?

>Your argument seems to boil down to you were frustrated that you couldn't
>use on area affect spell without losing some honor :) 

Actually it was the hippiesque buddhist-inspired touchy-feeliness that
irritated me most, although the broken combat handling was the last
straw.

>> Ultima IV, however, simply is not one of them. Unless you've always
>> dreamed of roleplaying a hippie in fantasyland.
>>
>Hardly...they are the same challenges examined in literature for thousands
>of years...Lancelot though
>having many virtues lacked Fidelity or Loyalty and therefore failed to be a
>true paragon of virtue
>as Galahad later embodied. Same concept and nothing at all to do with
>hippies

A simple 'yes' would have sufficed.


--
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky.
But we never will.
July 1, 2005 11:31:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:48:31
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>> Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk>, Wed, 29
>> Jun 2005 11:44:16 +0200, Anno Domini:
>>
>>> Ultima II and III were great games, but IV made me leave the entire
>>> series in disgust.
>>
>> So, what is the best Ultima of them all? VII (Black Gate?) I hear
>> some say, but I d/led it last year from some abandonware site with
>> all the plugins & it was just too damn hard on the eyes & the brain.
>> Seems like I had to be a hippie fanboy 1-6 lover to appreciate or
>> understand any of it; no decent intro, no backstory, just some murder
>> & a really poor UI/dialogue tree by today's standards. Oh well, to
>> each their own...*sigh*...
>
>You needed to have been there at the time, Nos.
>
>Right now, I couldn't stand to play any of them either, I don't think. At
>the time, though, they were great.

I'm trying again now...just roaming around the first town pinching
everyone's goodies...is there a point? Ok, I have to solve the murder to be
let out of town (convenient but overbaked plot hook). How many hours is this
puppy anyway? The inventory/stat seem very simplistic by today's standards
even if I do get past the graphics. Hmmm...lucky I'm a gaming masochist! :) 

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Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 11:31:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
>I'm trying again now...just roaming around the first town pinching
>everyone's goodies...is there a point?

There's a point to the overall game, dealing with the threat that the
Guardian poses to the world.

> Ok, I have to solve the murder to be let out of town (convenient
>but overbaked plot hook).

It's part of the game's story and not the only murder you'll encounter.

> How many hours is this puppy anyway?

It's pretty long.

> The inventory/stat seem very simplistic by today's standards even if
>I do get past the graphics. Hmmm...lucky I'm a gaming masochist!

Yup, lucky you. The inventory system isn't just simplistic, it's badly
designed. Once you get a lot of stuff you'll find really it annoying
having to move everything in your bags in order find some tiny bauble
or key.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/rridge/
db //
Anonymous
a b 4 Gaming
July 1, 2005 11:31:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>
> > The inventory/stat seem very simplistic by today's standards even if
> >I do get past the graphics. Hmmm...lucky I'm a gaming masochist!
>
> Yup, lucky you. The inventory system isn't just simplistic, it's badly
> designed. Once you get a lot of stuff you'll find really it annoying
> having to move everything in your bags in order find some tiny bauble
> or key.
>
It's quite realistic, though. Ever tried to dig to a full backpack to find a
small key?
Ah, the fun of finding an old piece of cheese under the party's supply of
well-worn swamp boots, and then eating it :) 

Markus
July 1, 2005 11:34:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com>, 30 Jun 2005 23:54:45 GMT, Anno
Domini:

>Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> once tried to test me with:
>
>> The most ppl I have ever *seen* in the one place in a mmog is a few
>> dozen & they weren't playing I assure you. Most mmog parties are
>> limited to 6-8, period. So, given you could chat with 100s/1000s of
>> players in D2 anyway, what's the farkin diff? Might as well call is a
>> mmog...
>
>But it's not. It just isn't. I can't help it if your experience with a true
>MMORPG was so limited. I've been in PvP raids in WoW that had a couple of
>hundred players involved. In the end game it's all about raid-level
>instance dungeons with upwards of 40 or so participants. Battlegrounds has
>a bunch (haven't tried it yet) of players on each side.

Fair enough, but most of that content is leveled at power-gamers as far as
I'm concerned, so I don't really count it as the 'norm' of a mmog.

>In D2 the most you'd have is 8 players in any one game, and most of that
>was for 10 minute cow-runs with people you didn't even know and wouldn't
>see again much less care about. Of course, sometimes you could join in with
>friends or maybe agd regulars, but max was 8 at a time.
>
>D2 wasn't even the first online RPG, much less massive online RPG. Diablo 1
>of course, preceeded it, but there were other games that had online play
>even before Diablo. The original Neverwinter Nights on AOL. Dark Sun
>Online. Various rogue-likes. Meridian 59. Not to mention tons of text-based
>RPG "MUDs".
>
>I would rate Meridian 59 the first MMORPG, or maybe Ultima Online if
>Meridian isn't "massive" enough.

M59 was my first dabbling with a mmog - whatever happened to it?

I'm *very* close to splashing $70 to get the online Guildwars cd-key, but I
guess you wouldn't call that a mmog either, ey K? ;-p

--
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!