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Fate DRM is a PITA

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Anonymous
July 11, 2005 3:44:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I am not quite ready to spit brass tacks, BUT I am getting close.

I bought Fate.
Then I migrated my harddrives, 3 noisy old ones to one quiet new one.
Fate wanted re-activation. Ok, fair enough. Did that. Then I decided to
actually go and convert the root drive to NTFS. Oops, Fate wanted re-
activation again, but already I had used my two activations and the link
for customersupport on their website just does not work for me (3
different browsers, proxy disabled, I won't turn the firewall off).

I finally managed to get to somebody through their forums, and he kindly
gave me another refresh. Took a week to achieve this, though.

Last night, I put a video capture card into my PC and, guess what! Fate
wants to bloody re-activate again.
And next week or next month I will be getting an Audigy ZS card - anyone
taking bets? .... I fact, I also have a new case on backorder, I
shouldn't be surprised, if ...

FFS, I am a hacker. I am constantly working on my computer one way or
another in my spare time. I guess Fate is out, and the rest of
WildTangent with it :-(

I have one unlock up my sleeve if I am counting right, and I will have
to be very judicious about when to apply it. But this is just plain
ridiculous. WinXP with all this activity has never asked me to
reactivate.

-Peter

More about : fate drm pita

July 11, 2005 3:44:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-07-10, Peter Huebner <no.one@this.address> wrote:
> I am not quite ready to spit brass tacks, BUT I am getting close.

I would just like to take a moment to state that evidently the
price of freedom is computer games and porn. People are happily
subjecting themselves to DRM if it means playing a video game or
watching a porn flick.

Prior to this there was more resistance to DRM. Especially when
it came to downloading music that was DRM encumbered.

> FFS, I am a hacker. I am constantly working on my computer one way or
> another in my spare time. I guess Fate is out, and the rest of
> WildTangent with it :-(

Yes. It wasn't hard for me to make the decision that DRM
distribution is simply not for me. I think the few people who
brought Fate to this newsgroup should re-evaluate what they've
done. They provided free marketting for a DRM enabled product
distributed by a spyware company. Way to go.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 10:29:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:48:34 -0500, shadows wrote:

> brought Fate to this newsgroup should re-evaluate what they've
> done. They provided free marketting for a DRM enabled product
> distributed by a spyware company. Way to go.

Every time I post positively about a game, I "provide free marketing" for
products protected with SecureROM, Starforce, and so on. Starforce installs
drivers that may well slow down the machine and are not removed when the
game is uninstalled. They have been known to trash entire systems. Every
time I post here about a Windows game, I indirectly "provide free
marketing" for Microsoft and the activation code system of XP.

Both, in my opinion, are worse than buying or mentioning a $20 game that
comes with a limited number of reinstallation "charges" (which be reloaded
by simply sending an email to customer support). Do I like this system? No.
I don't like Starforce or the XP activation, either. But an average gamer
does not re-install his or her OS every two weeks. I format my machines
every three years or so.

Also, we are talking about a game that costs $20. Phrases like "the price
of freedom" in reference to a $20 computer game puzzles me. If you feel
that strongly about freedom, stop using Windows and move out of the US
(Homeland security, software patents, and so on). Those are real issues. A
DRM game for $20 is a non-issue with no significance to "freedom", at least
no more than a Starforce-protected game that I cannot play without the
medium in the drive. (And what do you do if the disc gets damaged?)

Fate does not contain spyware in the way I define spyware. YMMV, but I, and
others, also have posted instructions on how the WT software can be
removed, without compromising the game.

Again, I'm not a fan of DRM, but I am able to make decisions based on (and
tailored to) individual situations. There's more than black and white.

M.
(guilty of providing free marketing for SecureROM, Starforce, and DRM)
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 10:59:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <slrndd51ml.29e2.shadows@helena.whitefang.com>,
shadows@whitefang.com says...
> On 2005-07-10, Peter Huebner <no.one@this.address> wrote:
> > I am not quite ready to spit brass tacks, BUT I am getting close.
>
> I would just like to take a moment to state that evidently the
> price of freedom is computer games and porn. People are happily
> subjecting themselves to DRM if it means playing a video game or
> watching a porn flick.

Only valid if you make a bizarre equation of freedom with the absence
of copyright protection.

> Yes. It wasn't hard for me to make the decision that DRM
> distribution is simply not for me. I think the few people who
> brought Fate to this newsgroup should re-evaluate what they've
> done. They provided free marketting for a DRM enabled product
> distributed by a spyware company. Way to go.

There doesn't appear to be any spyware involved (this was already
discussed - I brought up the issue, but am now satisfied that the
product is legitimate). And I have no objection to DRM. If people had
not developed such a fondness for internet piracy, it would not be
needed. Perhaps it is those who have promoted 'file-sharing' and the
like who should re-evaluate their positions.

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 11:13:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:52:51 -0500, shadows wrote:

> Why is it so hard for anyone else who despises DRM to do the
> same? It's just a game.

Well, the upsides (getting a fairly good, entertaining game at a very low
price) outweigh the downsides (rewarding a company for using DRM). I do
agree with you that it is a bit of a moral dilemma. I face the same problem
every time I buy meat at the supermarket and not at the local farmer who
keeps animals in a more humane way. As long as we are using Windows, we're
all hypocrites in this matter. I'm the first to admit that buying and
indirectly "promoting" Fate is a double-standard, because I don't like
activation systems. On the flipside, I still use Windows, and even work for
a company that makes money (indirectly) through a Windows-based service.

On the "freedom level", I don't feel so threatened by DRM as by Starforce
and other nasty copy protection schemes. I *hate* having to leave the
medium in the drive. I am also very concerned by Microsoft's control-freak
fantasies, and just today bought the Debian Sage Linux distro on some 14 or
16 CDs, so that I can familiarize myself more with the alternatives. But
realistically, I know I'll be stuck with Windows (XP now, Longhorn soon
enough) for quite some time to come. If I were really consequent, I'd only
buy games that also support Linux, like NWN, UT2004, Dominions 2 and a
handful of others (that said, I bought two copies of NWN and Dominions 2
because of the multiplatform support, and let the companies know).

I also semi-boycott Starforce, but even here I am inconsequent: I bought
Silent Hunter 3, and I knew it came with Starforce when I pressed the order
button. Same with Pure Pinball and The Fall (soon out in English, and I
actually recommend it). On the flipside, I shelfed my paid-for copy of MS
Office XP and use OpenOffice instead, so won't be paying for upgrades here.

I guess what I'm saying is that I try to do my bit, but I'm not a hardliner
who robs himself of any enjoyment only to make a point. At least I'm aware
of it. :p 

M.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 12:09:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Michael Vondung" <mvondung@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1qgfzdsx97q0g.p8jj18wvdwc4$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:52:51 -0500, shadows wrote:
>
>> Why is it so hard for anyone else who despises DRM to do the
>> same? It's just a game.
>
> Well, the upsides (getting a fairly good, entertaining game at a very low
> price) outweigh the downsides (rewarding a company for using DRM). I do
> agree with you that it is a bit of a moral dilemma. I face the same
> problem
> every time I buy meat at the supermarket and not at the local farmer who
> keeps animals in a more humane way. As long as we are using Windows, we're
> all hypocrites in this matter. I'm the first to admit that buying and
> indirectly "promoting" Fate is a double-standard, because I don't like
> activation systems. On the flipside, I still use Windows, and even work
> for
> a company that makes money (indirectly) through a Windows-based service.
>
> On the "freedom level", I don't feel so threatened by DRM as by Starforce
> and other nasty copy protection schemes. I *hate* having to leave the
> medium in the drive. I am also very concerned by Microsoft's control-freak
> fantasies, and just today bought the Debian Sage Linux distro on some 14
> or
> 16 CDs, so that I can familiarize myself more with the alternatives. But
> realistically, I know I'll be stuck with Windows (XP now, Longhorn soon
> enough) for quite some time to come. If I were really consequent, I'd only
> buy games that also support Linux, like NWN, UT2004, Dominions 2 and a
> handful of others (that said, I bought two copies of NWN and Dominions 2
> because of the multiplatform support, and let the companies know).
>
> I also semi-boycott Starforce, but even here I am inconsequent: I bought
> Silent Hunter 3, and I knew it came with Starforce when I pressed the
> order
> button. Same with Pure Pinball and The Fall (soon out in English, and I
> actually recommend it). On the flipside, I shelfed my paid-for copy of MS
> Office XP and use OpenOffice instead, so won't be paying for upgrades
> here.
>
> I guess what I'm saying is that I try to do my bit, but I'm not a
> hardliner
> who robs himself of any enjoyment only to make a point. At least I'm aware
> of it. :p 
>
> M.

I also bought SH3 and Fate, though I don't like Starforce and WildTangent.
What the hell are we to do? These are first-rate games and I want to play
them! This is where what's left of pc gaming is going. If we don't like
what's going on what's the realistic alternative......shutting down our pc's
and going outside to watch the birds in order to maintain our high
principles? Please don't tell me that the few thousand (or, more likely,
few hundred) of us who might care are going to lead some crusade and force
game publishers to discard these protection systems. It's not going to
happen. I've decided to simply live with SF and WT-type
protection/distribution systems. In a way, I prefer the WT-type delivery
system because you don't need to keep media in the drive to play the game.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 1:46:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:44:39 +1200, Peter Huebner <no.one@this.address> wrote:

>I am not quite ready to spit brass tacks, BUT I am getting close.
>
>I bought Fate.
>Then I migrated my harddrives, 3 noisy old ones to one quiet new one.
>Fate wanted re-activation. Ok, fair enough. Did that. Then I decided to
>actually go and convert the root drive to NTFS. Oops, Fate wanted re-
>activation again, but already I had used my two activations and the link
>for customersupport on their website just does not work for me (3
>different browsers, proxy disabled, I won't turn the firewall off).
>
>I finally managed to get to somebody through their forums, and he kindly
>gave me another refresh. Took a week to achieve this, though.
>
>Last night, I put a video capture card into my PC and, guess what! Fate
>wants to bloody re-activate again.
>And next week or next month I will be getting an Audigy ZS card - anyone
>taking bets? .... I fact, I also have a new case on backorder, I
>shouldn't be surprised, if ...
>
>FFS, I am a hacker. I am constantly working on my computer one way or
>another in my spare time. I guess Fate is out, and the rest of
>WildTangent with it :-(
>
>I have one unlock up my sleeve if I am counting right, and I will have
>to be very judicious about when to apply it. But this is just plain
>ridiculous. WinXP with all this activity has never asked me to
>reactivate.

I wonder how the people who don't like Steam feel about this? To me this is
far, far worse.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 4:29:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly shadows <shadows@whitefang.com> Spake Unto All:

>Why is it so hard for anyone else who despises DRM to do the
>same? It's just a game.

Because most times you don't know what protection is used until you've
bought the filth. I do however avoid games protected by starforce if I
know it's there.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 4:29:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> Spake Unto
All:

>I wonder how the people who don't like Steam feel about this? To me this is
>far, far worse.

Agreed. I have no problem with Steam, but Starforce is unacceptable to
me. WildTangent I don't know much about except that it's a data miner,
so I don't have a firm opinion on it.

However, I am personally of the opinion that most who didn't like
Steam didn't like it because it kept them from pirating HL2 and
playing online. And cheating online. So they'll have no problem with
Starforce or WildTangent.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 11:21:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>In article <slrndd51ml.29e2.shadows@helena.whitefang.com>,
>shadows@whitefang.com says...
>> On 2005-07-10, Peter Huebner <no.one@this.address> wrote:
>> > I am not quite ready to spit brass tacks, BUT I am getting close.
>>
>> I would just like to take a moment to state that evidently the
>> price of freedom is computer games and porn. People are happily
>> subjecting themselves to DRM if it means playing a video game or
>> watching a porn flick.
>
>Only valid if you make a bizarre equation of freedom with the absence
>of copyright protection.
>
>> Yes. It wasn't hard for me to make the decision that DRM
>> distribution is simply not for me. I think the few people who
>> brought Fate to this newsgroup should re-evaluate what they've
>> done. They provided free marketting for a DRM enabled product
>> distributed by a spyware company. Way to go.
>
>There doesn't appear to be any spyware involved (this was already
>discussed - I brought up the issue, but am now satisfied that the
>product is legitimate). And I have no objection to DRM. If people had
>not developed such a fondness for internet piracy, it would not be
>needed. Perhaps it is those who have promoted 'file-sharing' and the
>like who should re-evaluate their positions.

Exactly how is most DRM stopping piracy?

The pirate groups that "rip" a game crack the security, and the casual
p2p type pirates are posting images of the cds/dvd, including the copy
protection, for the downloader to burn and play.

DRM of this kind is really only affecting the people who actually buy
the damn thing and DON'T get a crack.

What's more convenient, a copy of FATE with all the DRM stuff and all
the wildtangent stuff, or a cracked version that _never_ expires, never
tries to make a connection anywhere, and doesn't include _ANY_ of the
wildtangent stuff.

What's more convenient, a copy of EVNova that keeps expiring it's key
and requiring a connection to the developer to get another, or a cracked
version that never expires?

These schemes are inconveniencing the actual purchasers, not the
pirates.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
July 12, 2005 11:25:21 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake "DocScorpio" <docscorpio@strupra-spammeros.com>, Mon, 11 Jul 2005
20:09:54 GMT, Anno Domini:

>I also bought SH3 and Fate, though I don't like Starforce and WildTangent.
>What the hell are we to do? These are first-rate games and I want to play
>them! This is where what's left of pc gaming is going. If we don't like
>what's going on what's the realistic alternative......shutting down our pc's
>and going outside to watch the birds in order to maintain our high
>principles? Please don't tell me that the few thousand (or, more likely,
>few hundred) of us who might care are going to lead some crusade and force
>game publishers to discard these protection systems. It's not going to
>happen. I've decided to simply live with SF and WT-type
>protection/distribution systems. In a way, I prefer the WT-type delivery
>system because you don't need to keep media in the drive to play the game.


Ditto. You can take anything a software company does personally, but in the
end, all they'll take is your money.

Though I am aware that WT are listening *very* closely to the DRM outcry
from their fan base & are going to significantly relax the system in their
succeeding games...if you can believe anything a profit-based software
company says ;-)

--
A killfile is a friend for life.

Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 3:59:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:29:27 +0200, Michael Vondung
<mvondung@gmail.com> wrote:

>Also, we are talking about a game that costs $20. Phrases like "the price
>of freedom" in reference to a $20 computer game puzzles me. If you feel
>that strongly about freedom, stop using Windows and move out of the US
>(Homeland security, software patents, and so on). Those are real issues. A
>DRM game for $20 is a non-issue with no significance to "freedom", at least
>no more than a Starforce-protected game that I cannot play without the
>medium in the drive. (And what do you do if the disc gets damaged?)

Similarly, what will you do if and when the publisher of Fate goes
bust, and they are not there anymore to provide new activation keys
for your game when you want to re-install it to your new PC?
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 4:26:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:59:06 +0100, Gerry Quinn
<gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> wrote:

>In article <slrndd51ml.29e2.shadows@helena.whitefang.com>,
>shadows@whitefang.com says...
>
>> I would just like to take a moment to state that evidently the
>> price of freedom is computer games and porn. People are happily
>> subjecting themselves to DRM if it means playing a video game or
>> watching a porn flick.
>
>Only valid if you make a bizarre equation of freedom with the absence
>of copyright protection.

It depends what consequences from the copyright protection there are
to the end user. I can still play e.g. Thief 2, even though the
company who made it (Looking Glass Studios) is closed down. If it had
used a similar activation system as Fate is using, then it would be
useless to me (unless I hunted down a suitable, illegal crack with
possible trojans and viruses in it, that took care of the copy
protection). Similarly, I possibly wouldn't be able to sell or give
away the game I bought, after I see I have no use for it anymore.

After all, the main reasons for these kind of PC game activation
systems (Steam, WT's system) is to:

- lessen casual piracy with electronic game delivery (understandable)
- restrict second-hand market of PC games (apparently this does not
affect Fate that much, if you can get new activation codes as long as
WT exists? Do they require personal information from you before
supplying new activation keys?)

Then again, at least they (WT) are charging only $20 for the game, so
in a sense they are compensating that way to the extra trouble their
activation scheme can cause trouble to the user. Something that Valve
didn't do with Half-life 2, even though it has the same risk related
to it, and it is near impossible to sell your game away second-hand.

I believe these current activation schemes are only a stepping stone
to the next level: pay-per-play games (with electronic delivery). That
is their ultimate goal. Either they expect us to pay for our
single-player games monthly (just like we do for MMORPGs currently),
or pay per play just like with arcade coin ops.

Depending on the price point, I would be either for or against it. But
in principle, I am against it just like I was against Circuit City
DIVX (which basically meant pay-per-view DVD movies). I want to be
able to add my DVD movies, audio CDs and console/PC games to my
collection, and have the ability to use them even years from now, not
depending on the existence of the publishing compenies of the items.
Wouldn't you hate it if your CD music or DVD movie collection would
become useless just because the publishing company went bust?
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 4:30:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:21:39 -0700, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
wrote:

>Exactly how is most DRM stopping piracy?

Usually the antipiracy methods are not trying to stop all piracy, but
mainly lessen casual piracy (copying from friend to friend etc.). I
guess they are not willing to take such chances anymore. Ah, the good
old days of e.g. Wing Commander, Red Baron, Doom or Duke3D, which
(IIRC) didn't have any kind of copy protection, yet sold pretty well.
But it may be that casual piracy was not as common back then, and also
internet and high-speed connections have also changed the market and
how fast a new unprotected game would spread all over the world.
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 4:35:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:46:26 GMT, Memnoch
<memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote:

>I wonder how the people who don't like Steam feel about this? To me this is
>far, far worse.

You called?

This is also bad, but depending on the viewpoint, not necessarily
worse. After all, you can sell Fate to a new owner without any
restrictions, can't you? No hassle with not being able to unregister
your Steam game from the original Steam account (that may also have
other Steam games registered to it) etc. The new owner of Fate
apparently can get new activation codes for his second-hand game, I
presume. But only as long as WT exist, which is the biggest point
against these game activation systems.

Likewise, WT is charging only $20 for their game, so it seems they are
compensating this activation hassle AND their bigger profits in the
price, unlike Valve with Steam Half-life 2, which cost around $50-$75,
the same (or more) than boxed PC games.

I hope you were not trying to point that now Steam is ok because there
are other similar systems popping up, because then you failed
miserably.
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 4:41:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <l0k7d1h9neu7jj1tk1q0v88fp1h07gsa3d@4ax.com>,
Xocyll@kingston.net says...
> Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> looked up from reading the
> entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
> say:

> >There doesn't appear to be any spyware involved (this was already
> >discussed - I brought up the issue, but am now satisfied that the
> >product is legitimate). And I have no objection to DRM. If people had
> >not developed such a fondness for internet piracy, it would not be
> >needed. Perhaps it is those who have promoted 'file-sharing' and the
> >like who should re-evaluate their positions.

> Exactly how is most DRM stopping piracy?

I don't have to prove that. Perhaps the publishers are desperately
deluded and are shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing titles
in unprotected form. Perhaps.

The fact remains that the popularity of piracy is the main reason they
implement DRM.

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 5:09:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:54:38 GMT, riku <riku@none.invalid.com> wrote:


>FAQ: What is wrong with Steam and similar single-player game online
>activation systems?

Oh, since there now are proven to be several Steam like systems out
there, let's add yet another issue:

5. Cluttering your computer with several competing "content delivery
systems". How the heck will you be able to find the game you want to
play in the future, if you have dozen or so different "electronic PC
game content delivery clients" installed?

Little Jimmy: "Gee I want to play DukeNukem Forever. Oh, but under
which client was it? Steam? EA Online? MS Gaming Zone? WildTangent
GamePoint? Ubisoft Gamer's Heaven? Vivendi Ultimate Online Xperience?
Or any of the others I don't even remember? Oh well, I guess I need to
launch them all to remind myself what games they have."
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 9:47:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:30:05 GMT, riku <riku@none.invalid.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:21:39 -0700, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Exactly how is most DRM stopping piracy?
>
>Usually the antipiracy methods are not trying to stop all piracy, but
>mainly lessen casual piracy (copying from friend to friend etc.). I
>guess they are not willing to take such chances anymore. Ah, the good
>old days of e.g. Wing Commander, Red Baron, Doom or Duke3D, which
>(IIRC) didn't have any kind of copy protection, yet sold pretty well.
>But it may be that casual piracy was not as common back then, and also
>internet and high-speed connections have also changed the market and
>how fast a new unprotected game would spread all over the world.
>

The truly top-quality single-player games only need copy-protection
that thwarts the hacker for a week or two, since 90% of the copies are
sold within a month of release. And probably 20% of the sales of such
games are pre-orders.

John Lewis
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 11:15:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

riku wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:29:27 +0200, Michael Vondung
> <mvondung@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Also, we are talking about a game that costs $20. Phrases like "the price
>>of freedom" in reference to a $20 computer game puzzles me. If you feel
>>that strongly about freedom, stop using Windows and move out of the US
>>(Homeland security, software patents, and so on). Those are real issues. A
>>DRM game for $20 is a non-issue with no significance to "freedom", at least
>>no more than a Starforce-protected game that I cannot play without the
>>medium in the drive. (And what do you do if the disc gets damaged?)
>
>
> Similarly, what will you do if and when the publisher of Fate goes
> bust, and they are not there anymore to provide new activation keys
> for your game when you want to re-install it to your new PC?
>

And after StarForce goes bust, or stops supporting their
older versions, who's going to update it so it works with
whatever new SP update or Windows version Microsoft comes
up with? All this copy control garbage does is ensure
problems for legitimate buyers. Some older CD games
will not play in XP unless you make a CD image and play
from that. But some newer games won't even install if
you have imaging software present on your hard drive.
PITA to have to juggle all this.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 12:15:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:35:36 GMT, riku <riku@none.invalid.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:46:26 GMT, Memnoch
><memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>I wonder how the people who don't like Steam feel about this? To me this is
>>far, far worse.
>
>You called?
>
>This is also bad, but depending on the viewpoint, not necessarily
>worse. After all, you can sell Fate to a new owner without any
>restrictions, can't you? No hassle with not being able to unregister
>your Steam game from the original Steam account (that may also have
>other Steam games registered to it) etc. The new owner of Fate
>apparently can get new activation codes for his second-hand game, I
>presume. But only as long as WT exist, which is the biggest point
>against these game activation systems.
>
>Likewise, WT is charging only $20 for their game, so it seems they are
>compensating this activation hassle AND their bigger profits in the
>price, unlike Valve with Steam Half-life 2, which cost around $50-$75,
>the same (or more) than boxed PC games.
>
>I hope you were not trying to point that now Steam is ok because there
>are other similar systems popping up, because then you failed
>miserably.

Not at all. I was after an honest opinion and I got one. Thanks. And as far as
I am concerned Steam is okay for MY particular usage, as I have stated before.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 12:18:17 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:09:03 GMT, riku <riku@none.invalid.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:54:38 GMT, riku <riku@none.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
>>FAQ: What is wrong with Steam and similar single-player game online
>>activation systems?
>
>Oh, since there now are proven to be several Steam like systems out
>there, let's add yet another issue:

SWAT 4 has a similar system that delivers adverts in game, replacing the
previous made up bill board ads for real life products. To be honest though I
have never noticed as I am usually too concerned about what's behind the next
door than whats on a wall but it is totally out of order but can easily be
stopped by denying it access to the Internet.

>5. Cluttering your computer with several competing "content delivery
>systems". How the heck will you be able to find the game you want to
>play in the future, if you have dozen or so different "electronic PC
>game content delivery clients" installed?
>
>Little Jimmy: "Gee I want to play DukeNukem Forever. Oh, but under
>which client was it? Steam? EA Online? MS Gaming Zone? WildTangent
>GamePoint? Ubisoft Gamer's Heaven? Vivendi Ultimate Online Xperience?
>Or any of the others I don't even remember? Oh well, I guess I need to
>launch them all to remind myself what games they have."
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 1:26:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:15:26 GMT, mrlg <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

>> Similarly, what will you do if and when the publisher of Fate goes
>> bust, and they are not there anymore to provide new activation keys
>> for your game when you want to re-install it to your new PC?
>>
>
>And after StarForce goes bust, or stops supporting their
>older versions, who's going to update it so it works with
>whatever new SP update or Windows version Microsoft comes
>up with?

At least they would work with the OS that the game was intended for.
Steam/Fate would stop working even sooner, even on the OS the game was
intended for.
July 14, 2005 1:26:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:26:58 GMT, riku <riku@none.invalid.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:15:26 GMT, mrlg <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>> Similarly, what will you do if and when the publisher of Fate goes
>>> bust, and they are not there anymore to provide new activation keys
>>> for your game when you want to re-install it to your new PC?
>>>
>>
>>And after StarForce goes bust, or stops supporting their
>>older versions, who's going to update it so it works with
>>whatever new SP update or Windows version Microsoft comes
>>up with?
>
>At least they would work with the OS that the game was intended for.
>Steam/Fate would stop working even sooner,

You can't honestly say that without making presumptions about how long
the parent company will last.

>even on the OS the game was
>intended for.

Though *that* might be true.

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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Anonymous
July 14, 2005 5:30:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly riku <riku@none.invalid.com> Spake Unto All:

>>However, I am personally of the opinion that most who didn't like
>>Steam didn't like it because it kept them from pirating HL2 and
>>playing online. And cheating online.
>
>Then you would be completely wrong with your ASS-umption.
>
>First of all, Steam never stopped anyone pirating Half-life 2.

Actually it stopped everyone for four days, and is still stopping
everyone from online gaming.

>As for cheating with online games, requiring online activation for a
>SINGLE-PLAYER GAME has nothing to do with it. You really weren't the
>brightest kid in your class, were you?

No, I must've been playing too much Counterstrike: Source to pay much
attention. Shame, otherwise I'd have been sm4rt like u.

>Ok, I'll once again list the main issues with Steam (and other similar
>single-player online activation systems). Pay attention so that you
>don't need to ASSume anything anymore.

Wait, weren't you the moron who thought that giving out an email
address equalled "giving up privacy" and "giving out personal
information"?

>FAQ: What is wrong with Steam and similar single-player game online
>activation systems?
>
>1. Trying to prevent second-hand sales

Yep. That's it. Of course, there exists no second hand market for PC
games, due to piracy, so the point isn't really very convincing.

All your other points were reiterations of this.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 11:37:35 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:01:54 -0600, Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com>
wrote:

>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:15:26 GMT, mrlg <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Similarly, what will you do if and when the publisher of Fate goes
>>>> bust, and they are not there anymore to provide new activation keys
>>>> for your game when you want to re-install it to your new PC?
>>>>
>>>
>>>And after StarForce goes bust, or stops supporting their
>>>older versions, who's going to update it so it works with
>>>whatever new SP update or Windows version Microsoft comes
>>>up with?
>>
>>At least they would work with the OS that the game was intended for.
>>Steam/Fate would stop working even sooner,
>
>You can't honestly say that without making presumptions about how long
>the parent company will last.

The presumption in both cases was that the parent company disappears
or for some other reason stops supporting the system.

In DVD based copy protection it might mean that the game will have
difficulties running in future Windows versions (which it probably
would do anyway even without copy protection, esp. with new hardware),
but it would continue to work on the OS and PC it was targetted for,
or a new system which can emulate such system well enough.

In Steam/WT case it would mean the game would not be installable (and
possibly not even playable) at all anymore, even in the OS or system
it was originally bought for.
July 14, 2005 11:37:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:37:35 GMT, riku <riku@none.invalid.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:01:54 -0600, Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:15:26 GMT, mrlg <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Similarly, what will you do if and when the publisher of Fate goes
>>>>> bust, and they are not there anymore to provide new activation keys
>>>>> for your game when you want to re-install it to your new PC?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>And after StarForce goes bust, or stops supporting their
>>>>older versions, who's going to update it so it works with
>>>>whatever new SP update or Windows version Microsoft comes
>>>>up with?
>>>
>>>At least they would work with the OS that the game was intended for.
>>>Steam/Fate would stop working even sooner,
>>
>>You can't honestly say that without making presumptions about how long
>>the parent company will last.
>
>The presumption in both cases was that the parent company disappears
>or for some other reason stops supporting the system.
>
>In DVD based copy protection it might mean that the game will have
>difficulties running in future Windows versions (which it probably
>would do anyway even without copy protection, esp. with new hardware),
>but it would continue to work on the OS and PC it was targetted for,

Which, considering the rate at which most folks replace their PCs and
upgrade their OSs, might very well be long gone before the company
supporting a steam-product.

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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Anonymous
July 14, 2005 11:50:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:30:07 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
<mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Thusly riku <riku@none.invalid.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>>However, I am personally of the opinion that most who didn't like
>>>Steam didn't like it because it kept them from pirating HL2 and
>>>playing online. And cheating online.
>>
>>Then you would be completely wrong with your ASS-umption.
>>
>>First of all, Steam never stopped anyone pirating Half-life 2.
>
>Actually it stopped everyone for four days, and is still stopping
>everyone from online gaming.

Uh, just like every normal CD key does for other online games? Steam
does nothing extra in that front.

>>Ok, I'll once again list the main issues with Steam (and other similar
>>single-player online activation systems). Pay attention so that you
>>don't need to ASSume anything anymore.
>
>Wait, weren't you the moron who thought that giving out an email
>address equalled "giving up privacy" and "giving out personal
>information"?

No, I wasn't. Show me where I have said that. Apparently you are
mistaking me to someone else.

>>FAQ: What is wrong with Steam and similar single-player game online
>>activation systems?
>>
>>1. Trying to prevent second-hand sales
>
>Yep. That's it. Of course, there exists no second hand market for PC
>games, due to piracy, so the point isn't really very convincing.

How wrong you are. Go to ebay.

http://computers.listings.ebay.com/Software_Games-Enter...

>All your other points were reiterations of this.

No they weren't, you just have a severe reading comprehension problem.
For example not being able to install and play your Steam games if and
when support for it stops is in no way a reiteration of that.

But of course you would say that, because you want to dismiss them.
Too hard to argue with those points, right? I agree, why argue with
facts?
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 3:17:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <3m1ad1l38ai46r1jjpbnpk8dk17mui9ft7@4ax.com>,
riku@none.invalid.com says...
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:59:06 +0100, Gerry Quinn
> <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> wrote:

> >Only valid if you make a bizarre equation of freedom with the absence
> >of copyright protection.
>
> It depends what consequences from the copyright protection there are
> to the end user. I can still play e.g. Thief 2, even though the
> company who made it (Looking Glass Studios) is closed down. If it had
> used a similar activation system as Fate is using, then it would be
> useless to me (unless I hunted down a suitable, illegal crack with
> possible trojans and viruses in it, that took care of the copy
> protection). Or unless they released a 'crack' themselves, non
unreasonable if they have stopped selling the game.

> Similarly, I possibly wouldn't be able to sell or give
> away the game I bought, after I see I have no use for it anymore.

This is of course more of an incentive.

> I believe these current activation schemes are only a stepping stone
> to the next level: pay-per-play games (with electronic delivery). That
> is their ultimate goal. Either they expect us to pay for our
> single-player games monthly (just like we do for MMORPGs currently),
> or pay per play just like with arcade coin ops.
>
> Depending on the price point, I would be either for or against it. But
> in principle, I am against it just like I was against Circuit City
> DIVX (which basically meant pay-per-view DVD movies). I want to be
> able to add my DVD movies, audio CDs and console/PC games to my
> collection, and have the ability to use them even years from now, not
> depending on the existence of the publishing compenies of the items.
> Wouldn't you hate it if your CD music or DVD movie collection would
> become useless just because the publishing company went bust?

Yes - but then music recording is a mature technology. Games from
twenty years ago tend to be better as memories!

Sure, there are downsides to DRM. But then again there are downsides
everywhere people do business, given that the interests of both parties
are different. Public demand will be a factor in how digital products
are sold.

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 6:25:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly riku <riku@none.invalid.com> Spake Unto All:

>>>First of all, Steam never stopped anyone pirating Half-life 2.
>>
>>Actually it stopped everyone for four days, and is still stopping
>>everyone from online gaming.
>
>Uh, just like every normal CD key does for other online games? Steam
>does nothing extra in that front.

Ah, changing tack. We've now gone from "never stopped anyone" to "no
better than CD keys". Which is patently untrue.

"Normal CD keys" has not been successful in stopping either off- or
on-line gaming. You need accounts and control over the servers to
achieve that. Not completely unlike the MMORPGs and Steam.

>>>Ok, I'll once again list the main issues with Steam (and other similar
>>>single-player online activation systems). Pay attention so that you
>>>don't need to ASSume anything anymore.
>>
>>Wait, weren't you the moron who thought that giving out an email
>>address equalled "giving up privacy" and "giving out personal
>>information"?
>
>No, I wasn't. Show me where I have said that. Apparently you are
>mistaking me to someone else.

OK. My mistake. Wrong moron.

>>Yep. That's it. Of course, there exists no second hand market for PC
>>games, due to piracy, so the point isn't really very convincing.
>
>How wrong you are. Go to ebay.
>
>http://computers.listings.ebay.com/Software_Games-Enter...

<shrug> Yeah, I've sold games too. I believe I got $4/each last time I
sold off stuff. Those games were less than a year old too. That's
"nonexistant" to me, because $4 for a game I paid $50 for is nothing.
It doesn't even cover the time it takes to sell them.
If you want to see an functional second hand market, have a look at
XBox/Playstation 2 games. Piracy isn't easy/rampant enough to depress
second hand price as much as it does on PC.

>No they weren't, you just have a severe reading comprehension problem.
>For example not being able to install and play your Steam games if and
>when support for it stops is in no way a reiteration of that.

Of course, you worded that as when you'd failed to install and play
your steam game you COULD NOT SELL IT.

>Too hard to argue with those points, right? I agree, why argue with
>facts?

Facts? Like that steam actually works very well indeed? Or are you
talking "facts", like your touching story about how the game would be
unplayable if Valve suddenly went bankrupt?


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 2:57:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <hmkdd1hl3l9eao10ntkfs484f8vfsc90va@4ax.com>,
Xocyll@kingston.net says...
> Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> looked up from reading the
> entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs

> >I don't have to prove that. Perhaps the publishers are desperately
> >deluded and are shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing titles
> >in unprotected form. Perhaps.
>
> The management read statistics provided by the software associations
> (but don't manage to read the fine print about all the estimations and
> guesswork those stats represent.)
> Then they get a visit from some DRM company that says, Hey our software
> is 100% compatible with all your potential customers' machines and will
> stop 100% of piracy.
> Neither is true, but the management types who believe it don't know
> usually know anything about computers anyway.

I think that's merely your fantasy about how things work.

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 6:00:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>In article <hmkdd1hl3l9eao10ntkfs484f8vfsc90va@4ax.com>,
>Xocyll@kingston.net says...
>> Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> looked up from reading the
>> entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
>
>> >I don't have to prove that. Perhaps the publishers are desperately
>> >deluded and are shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing titles
>> >in unprotected form. Perhaps.
>>
>> The management read statistics provided by the software associations
>> (but don't manage to read the fine print about all the estimations and
>> guesswork those stats represent.)
>> Then they get a visit from some DRM company that says, Hey our software
>> is 100% compatible with all your potential customers' machines and will
>> stop 100% of piracy.
>> Neither is true, but the management types who believe it don't know
>> usually know anything about computers anyway.
>
>I think that's merely your fantasy about how things work.

No, it's just the Peter Principle, combined with a bit of Dilbert,
combined with the fantasy that is the Piracy stats.
I've read one of those much quoted piracy reports - it's "statistics"
were guesses based on estimates of estimates of estimates.

You had to read the fine print though, to find that out, it wasn't
mentioned at all on their piracy graphs.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 4:46:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <tm8gd1de68rv5g6j2hj7edtkpqom7ug106@4ax.com>,
Xocyll@kingston.net says...
> Gerry Quinn <gerryq@DELETETHISindigo.ie> looked up from reading the

> >> The management read statistics provided by the software associations
> >> (but don't manage to read the fine print about all the estimations and
> >> guesswork those stats represent.)
> >> Then they get a visit from some DRM company that says, Hey our software
> >> is 100% compatible with all your potential customers' machines and will
> >> stop 100% of piracy.
> >> Neither is true, but the management types who believe it don't know
> >> usually know anything about computers anyway.
> >
> >I think that's merely your fantasy about how things work.
>
> No, it's just the Peter Principle, combined with a bit of Dilbert,
> combined with the fantasy that is the Piracy stats.
> I've read one of those much quoted piracy reports - it's "statistics"
> were guesses based on estimates of estimates of estimates.

Perhaps there is a certain amount of fantasy on both sides.

- Gerry Quinn
!