"new" Thorens 124

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We've just had a Thorens 124 turntable donated to our school (from the
estate of a donor who also donated probably 4000 records, so this is a
welcome addition).

I've never seen one before but know it's a potentially great turntable
(don't want to sell it!). It appears that the big selector knob is the
ON/OFF -- it's either set to 0 or to a speed. Problem is nothing happens
when it is turned on. The "brake" on the side is off, but the thing doesn't
turn and the strobe light doesn't come on.

Any suggestions? (and yes it is plugged into a good outlet....)

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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:55:31 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
<herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:

>We've just had a Thorens 124 turntable donated to our school (from the
>estate of a donor who also donated probably 4000 records, so this is a
>welcome addition).
>
>I've never seen one before but know it's a potentially great turntable
>(don't want to sell it!). It appears that the big selector knob is the
>ON/OFF -- it's either set to 0 or to a speed. Problem is nothing happens
>when it is turned on. The "brake" on the side is off, but the thing doesn't
>turn and the strobe light doesn't come on.
>
>Any suggestions? (and yes it is plugged into a good outlet....) <snip>

Duhhh...the belt is broken????

dB

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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:55:31 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
<herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:

>I've never seen one before but know it's a potentially great turntable
>(don't want to sell it!). It appears that the big selector knob is the
>ON/OFF -- it's either set to 0 or to a speed. Problem is nothing happens
>when it is turned on. The "brake" on the side is off, but the thing doesn't
>turn and the strobe light doesn't come on.

Does ANYTHING happen when you start up? Does a motor whirr?

Lift the platter and see what rubber wheels and/or belts may not be
doing their job.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

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"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
> These have both a belt and an idler wheel in their drive path.
> Start by removing the platter to see what's moving. Originally
> they had a spare belt stored somewhere. Lovely old machines,
> but lubricants need replacing and rubber parts are aged.

Regardless of belt, idler wheel, etc. shouldn't I see the strobe light if
it's getting power OK. I guess the strobe could be burned out.....

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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:47:15 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
<herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:

>That would make the strobe light not work? <snip>

No neon bulb = no juice. Try plugging it in.

dB

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I'm guessing you won't know how to set it up properly, even working.
Just bring it to a shop that does these things. They are all over the
place.

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"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3rd3v093825e5etk532ovuf08pvgk7hdrj@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:48:45 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
> <herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:
>
> >> These have both a belt and an idler wheel in their drive path.
> >> Start by removing the platter to see what's moving. Originally
> >> they had a spare belt stored somewhere. Lovely old machines,
> >> but lubricants need replacing and rubber parts are aged.
> >
> >Regardless of belt, idler wheel, etc. shouldn't I see the strobe light if
> >it's getting power OK. I guess the strobe could be burned out.....
>
> No movement, no strobe - sounds like a general power failure. Do
> these things have a fuse?

I don't think so, but the power/speed switch could be bad. See if there's AC
voltage appearing across the strobe light when it's turned on.

Oh, and is this one of the Thorenses that had an extra switch on it that you
needed to toggle momentarily to start it? Or is that the brake switch? (Been
a long time since I messed with one.)

Peace,
Paul

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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:50:14 -0800, DeserTBoB <desertb@rglobal.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:47:15 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
><herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:
>
>>That would make the strobe light not work? <snip>
>
>No neon bulb = no juice. Try plugging it in.

Probably (I don't know of a neon bulb ever burning out), but not
neccesarily. I got a Dual that ran fine but didn't have the neon
strobe working. The wire to it had been cut. I wired it up, and
listening verified my suspicions why it was cut - it added a faint
buzz to the audio (the sudden neon turn-on and voltage drop at each
half cycle causes a transient with lots of harmonics, picked up by the
nearby cartridge wiring). I added a switch so it's only on when I want
to check speed.

>dB

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

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"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> Does ANYTHING happen when you start up? Does a motor whirr?

I don't hear ANYTHING at all when I move the switch to a number.... My meter
is home today, but I'll the AC cord where it enters the thing tomorrow.....

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Dennis Herrick wrote:

> We've just had a Thorens 124 turntable donated to our school
> (from the estate of a donor who also donated probably 4000
> records, so this is a welcome addition).

It is of interest because it is a 4 speed turntable AND because it is A
classic. It also has great longevity. A few years back the essential
spare parts were available. By essential I mean a new rubber wheel and a
new rubber belt and a suitable oil. Sowing machine oil or teflon door
lock oils are possible alternatives. For the difference was that the new
rubber wheel was only part time rumbly, while the old one is full time
rumbly. Which is to say that rumble is the great achilles heel of this
turntable. It is irrelevant for the use I plan to make of mine: playing
back 78 rpm records with a suitable cartridge on its SME arm. The rumble
is not irrelevant for playing back high quality vinyl. Which is why
Thorens did not keep making turntables with that drive mechanism.

> I've never seen one before but know it's a potentially
> great turntable

Yes, and it has a nice sonic punch.

> (don't want to sell it!). It appears that the big selector
> knob is the ON/OFF -- it's either set to 0 or to a speed.

Yes, combined power button and gear lever.

> Problem is nothing happens when it is turned on.

This is because it has been left unused for too long.

> The "brake" on the side is off,

You obviously do not understand this deck, that is sad because you have
then omitted doing something very important before transporting it.
Explanation below.

> but the thing doesn't turn

Not in itself a concern, but it does raise questions.

> and the strobe light doesn't come on.

Light bulb or whatever may be defective. But more questions are raised.

> Any suggestions? (and yes it is plugged into a good outlet....)

First of all: transport instructions, and those are vital. The turntable
may not be transported with the platter in place (x). It is essential
for the protection of the center bearing that the platter should be
removed and that the well should be covered so that dirt does not enter
it during transport. To do this first remove the upper platter, which is
very light and then the lower which comprises the major part of the
total weight of the turntable. Tone arms that rest on knife bearing
should similarly have the bearings protected by fastening the tonearm
with rubber bands so that it does not rest on the bearings during
transport. Take great care and be very gentle when you re-insert the
lower platter, including take care of your fingertips, because there is
not a lot of room for them.

(x) perhaps not a great concern if it was sensibly on a car seat during
transport ... no matter what, too late to worry now, but do take care in
the future.

Next: this deck does not have a very powerful motor. It may be necessary
to help it spin up with a fingetip on the platter, especially if too
heavy oil has been used in the center bearing. Do NOT wash the center
bearing with de-greasing solvents, but you can try using a very thin oil
as a cleaning agent. However even with the platter removed, ie. with the
motor just having to rotate itself this deck is a very slow starter
after long time of dis-use, it is probably better to have the platter(s)
in place and be able to help it get started. Running it occasionally is
not to wear it, it is to protect it.

I spent the money on the factory brand of oil for mine .... I also
bought a belt and a new rubber wheel, but as yet I have used only the
oil. I found the parts to be costly, but available.

It could be that there are also some elecrical issues with yours, I
can't comment on those, I expect that some of the other people following
up have.

The dual platter design is aimed at permitting a fast spin up, it is a
turntable that is specifically designed for the needs of radio stations.
The brake only halts the upper platter, the heavy lower part - and the
center spindle - always rotate.

I have replaced the rubber platter cover on mine with dual layers of 1.9
mm perfect dot compressible rubber blanket from a Halley-Aller offset
press .... about the same effective thickness and a much better support
for the record. The cost was nil to me and nil to Gutenberghus - the
printing house - because it was the outer layer on a roll and it would
otherwise have been discarded. The original rubber mat is designed to
have minimum contact surface to prevent moving dirt from record to
record ... but do not discard it in case you want to do something
similar, the turntable is a classic and you might want to be able to put
it back on to keep it original.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

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Bob Olhsson wrote:

> "Peter Larsen" <SPAMSHIELD_plarsen@mail.tele.dk> wrote in message
> news:41F70301.DE3CA342@mail.tele.dk...

>>...rumble is the great achilles heel of this
>> turntable.

> If you really torque down the arm board, the notorious
> TD124 rumble goes away!

Thanks Bob!

> Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

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"Dennis Herrick" <herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote in message
news:_9dJd.2$SZ6.1@fe39.usenetserver.com...

Update:

I brought my meter in today, there IS power at the little white square where
the power cord attaches. But turning the selector to one of the speed
numbers has no response at all. I can see and feel the motor, and hear
nothing and feel nothing. It's reacting as if there's no power at all.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I can't get to the motor leads without more dismantling.... I don't want to
take apart what I can't get back together, but I might be able to get to
this. It looks like I just remove the belt, then the three C shaped things
and the motor will drop down....

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ctbpae$l8k$1@panix2.panix.com...

>>I brought my meter in today, there IS power at the little white square
>>where
>>the power cord attaches. But turning the selector to one of the speed
>>numbers has no response at all. I can see and feel the motor, and hear
>>nothing and feel nothing. It's reacting as if there's no power at all.
>
> Is there voltage across the motor leads?

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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:40:01 +0100, Peter Larsen
<SPAMSHIELD_plarsen@mail.tele.dk> wrote:

>Which is why
>Thorens did not keep making turntables with that drive mechanism. <snip>

Amen...nice TTs in the '50s, but notorious woofer busters. Couple a
TD-124 with a 1958 stereo release cut on a rumbly Scully lathe, and
you'll have one hell of a time.

>Yes, and it has a nice sonic punch. <snip>

Huh??

>First of all: transport instructions, and those are vital. The turntable
>may not be transported with the platter in place (x). It is essential
>for the protection of the center bearing that the platter should be
>removed and that the well should be covered so that dirt does not enter
>it during transport. To do this first remove the upper platter, which is
>very light and then the lower which comprises the major part of the
>total weight of the turntable. Tone arms that rest on knife bearing
>should similarly have the bearings protected by fastening the tonearm
>with rubber bands so that it does not rest on the bearings during
>transport. Take great care and be very gentle when you re-insert the
>lower platter, including take care of your fingertips, because there is
>not a lot of room for them. <snip>

Excellent advice. The platters on these things were monsters, and
moving them around with platter in place is a sure-fire way to destroy
the bearing.

>(x) perhaps not a great concern if it was sensibly on a car seat during
>transport ... no matter what, too late to worry now, but do take care in
>the future.
>
>Next: this deck does not have a very powerful motor. It may be necessary
>to help it spin up with a fingetip on the platter, especially if too
>heavy oil has been used in the center bearing. Do NOT wash the center
>bearing with de-greasing solvents, but you can try using a very thin oil
>as a cleaning agent. <snip>

The old standby, turbine oil, seems to work about the best...same
stuff used on Ampexes for 50 years.

>However even with the platter removed, ie. with the
>motor just having to rotate itself this deck is a very slow starter
>after long time of dis-use, it is probably better to have the platter(s)
>in place and be able to help it get started. Running it occasionally is
>not to wear it, it is to protect it. <snip>

I think the problem with this old-timer is electrical...no strobe
light? No power.

>I spent the money on the factory brand of oil for mine .... I also
>bought a belt and a new rubber wheel, but as yet I have used only the
>oil. I found the parts to be costly, but available. <snip>

As someone said, using a new idler makes *some* of the rumble go away,
not all. When these wheels harden, rumble will start to peak up
before speed problems will. It's the reason I got rid of my TD-124
years ago...it's simply too rumbly for use on disks where getting the
bottom of the curve, down the 16 Hz, is a necessity.

>The dual platter design is aimed at permitting a fast spin up, it is a
>turntable that is specifically designed for the needs of radio stations.
>The brake only halts the upper platter, the heavy lower part - and the
>center spindle - always rotate. <snip>

ALways fun on a disk with a tight center hole! The captive 45 adapter
was a nice touch on those, though.

It's always nice to reminisce about those big old tanks...surely state
of the art back around 1956...but time pretty much passed them by.
Before I sold mine, I did a comparison between the TD-124 and a
Technics SL-110 for wow and flutter. The Technics was far better, by
more than an order of magnitude actually, even with a new belt and
idler, and dead groove noise readings showed the rumble in the
critical 15-40 Hz region to be almost 25 dB less...which is a LOT of
power. Fine for 78s, not good for fidelity. I also still have an old
Empire with the clunky Empire arm and a Pickering in it, which I only
use to play one record anymore...the 1978 Liberty stereo 78 of Nitty
Gritty Dirt Band, which was cut in microgroove. Also has a 78 stylus.
The Empire also beat the Thorens on rumble quite handily, but not as
much as the direct drivers did.

dB

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"Joe Sensor" <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote in message
news:35v6h6F4po6cqU1@individual.net...
> Dennis Herrick wrote:
>
> > I can't get to the motor leads without more dismantling.... I don't want
to
> > take apart what I can't get back together, but I might be able to get to
> > this. It looks like I just remove the belt, then the three C shaped
things
> > and the motor will drop down....
>
> Why don't you just bring it to a tech?

Several reasons.... right now I'm not in great need for this to work, so
there's no rush to get it done.... I like trying to figure out how it works
or why it doesn't (at least up to the point of frustration or loss of
interest).... I don't have spare cash for a non crucial task..... and most
importantly, this is a small town and I don't know where to take it to find
someone who knows what they're doing.

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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:02:52 GMT, Chris Hornbeck
<chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:19:42 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
><herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:
>
>>Several reasons.... right now I'm not in great need for this to work, so
>>there's no rush to get it done.... I like trying to figure out how it works
>>or why it doesn't (at least up to the point of frustration or loss of
>>interest).... I don't have spare cash for a non crucial task..... and most
>>importantly, this is a small town and I don't know where to take it to find
>>someone who knows what they're doing.

Do you have a multimeter that measures resistance?
Harborfreight.com has three models for $10 to $13. Pull the
turntable's power plug from the wall, turn the power switch on, and
measure across the plug blades. It should be around a few hundred ohms
or less (this is the motor winding's DC resistance). If so, then
there's electrical continuity through the motor which is a Good Thing
- continue with Chris' questions below.
If it measures open (or several megohms) then the switch is bad, or
there's a bad connector/connection somewhere, or the motor winding is
open and the motor needs replacing (if you're lucky the broken wire is
on the outside of the winding and you can splice it - otherwise, if
you've got the appropriate size magnet wire [probably $10 worth] and
the time, you can rewind it). Trace through the wiring and connections
with your multimeter measuring resistance to see which of those is the
problem. When you find and fix it, continue below.

>OK, let's try to narrow it down a little. Can you turn the motor by
>hand? It should spin pretty freely with the belt removed.
>
>Can you feel the motor vibrating or trying to turn? Will it
>start with a push (twist)?
>
>Chris Hornbeck
>"Don't be foolish, like the others." -Lola Montes, 1955

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

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"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
news8unv0d4focuc050r3c41pqqp6pkmf2l9p@4ax.com...

> OK, let's try to narrow it down a little. Can you turn the motor by
> hand? It should spin pretty freely with the belt removed.
> Can you feel the motor vibrating or trying to turn? Will it
> start with a push (twist)?

I'm at home now and the turntable is at work, but there wasn't any twisting
or vibrating at all. Absolutely no change at all when the selector switch is
turned... I;ll check the spin tomorrow or Mon...

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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:15:52 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
<herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:

>> Do you have a multimeter that measures resistance?
>
>Yes. I'm sure mine does that. I've used it for this before, but I always
>found the right setting by trial and error. It's got all these little
>pictures by the settings like V with stuff over it and things like that.
>(I know what the thing does buy don't use it enough to remember what all the
>symbols mean...)

I suggest that, considering this slapdash attitude, you keep yourself
and the meter well away from mains-powered equipment :-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

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"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
> OK, let's try to narrow it down a little. Can you turn the motor by
> hand? It should spin pretty freely with the belt removed.

Yep. Motor spins quite freely.

> Can you feel the motor vibrating or trying to turn? Will it
> start with a push (twist)?

No vibration and doesn't seem to be trying to turn. If I spin it, it still
won't start. It's acting as if it's not plugged in the wall. Selector switch
seems to make no difference whether it's plugged into the wall or not,
except that power does get to the power cord....

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"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uippv0ltfejg94ptpjo1lt8u9o73mi2fkp@4ax.com...

> I suggest that, considering this slapdash attitude, you keep yourself
> and the meter well away from mains-powered equipment :-)

LOL!! Good suggestion.... I learned that when I fried one once.... I don't
stick it in outlets much anymore.....

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"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
news:quoqv0tiknrsibaldd0sl3uct921m4ph9m@4ax.com...

> Excellent news. Assuming everything's still factory wiring,
> you can probably count on the motor being OK, and suspect
> trouble with the switch.
>
> I wish my memory of these was good enough to describe it to
> you, but in general, the switch will be inside a package to
> which the AC cord and the motor's wires are attached.

That's what I'd expect, but there's no wires AT ALL to/from the selector
switch. The power cord goes to a small block -- in one side out to the
voltage commuator on the other side, then to the motor.

It must be the movement of the selector switch that does something somewhere
else -- all I can see the selector switch do is move the rubber flywheel up
and down to different places on a spindle that control speed.

I did find a picture of an underside like mine here -- the selector switch
is upper left here
http://www.thorens-info.de/td124_unterseite_gross.jpg

Thanks again for your help!!

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"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
news:veuqv0tf5nitvvfp7qtk7mj6qvv6fov8g1@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:09:59 -0600, "Dennis Herrick"
> <herrickd@huntingdon.edu> wrote:


> I'll bet the switch is under that brown bakelite plate.
> Easy enough to find out. When you've examined the switch
> contacts and observed them (not?) closing, you'll be on
> your way to glory.

On the topside opposite that bakelite plate is where one selects 100-120 or
200-200 and such. There's four positions.

The selector switch (which I thought it what turns it on -- one chooses 0 or
the speed (16, 33, 45 or 78)) is that round thing on the upper left corner.
I can't see anything electrical attached to that.... So how does turning
this get power to the motor?

> The linkages that operate that switch may well be riding
> in old grease that's evaporated to wax; can't blame it;
> it's been a while.

It seems to operate OK.... I can see the rubber wheel on top move to
different places on the spindle that control speed....

I suspect this was "only" set up for a few years. It probably had lots of
use before that since the guy who owned it had thousands of records.

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"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
news:cq0rv096fghi6blt839jk58ul224f0au56@4ax.com...

> Ah, OK. By "switch" I mean the actual electrical contacts that
> touch together to pass electricity to the motor. These switch
> contacts will be pushed together (actually, one is usually
> stationary, one moves) by a linkage.
>
> I'm still on the theory that the linkage is your bad-guy.
> Step one is to observe the switch's contacts (not?) moving.
> Then we've got a ball game.

GOT IT!!! There's two bakelite plates, and I was looking at the wrong one...
the upper one (top center in this picture
http://www.thorens-info.de/td124_unterseite_gross.jpg -- the black thing
with the two screws in it) is the one with the switch under it. And sure
enough, when the speed selector switch moves that flat piece of metal (top
right by the arm board) releases pressure on a little thingy that is then
supposed to move from one side of a switch to the other. Problem is that it
doesn't move. I can move it by hand -- it's not stuck, just that the spring
isn't strong enough to move it to the opposite side of the switch. And if I
move it by hand, the motor starts just fine.

I'll play with it a little and see if there's something binding it....