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August 6, 2005 6:35:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
add ons selling for 15 pounds.

I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
I heard the add ons were a lot better.

Is it worth buying?

Regards

More about : nwn

Anonymous
August 6, 2005 7:19:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Terry" <terry@tbean.freeserve.co.uk> wrote on 06 elo 2005:

> I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
> add ons selling for 15 pounds.

> I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
> I heard the add ons were a lot better.

The quality steadily rises with time. The first expansion is better
than the original, the second expansion is better than the first,
and the recent 'Premiere' module (downloadable for a small fee) is
IMO the best NWN adventure yet.

> Is it worth buying?

Depends on whether you crave D&D. It's pretty much the only viable
D&D game left anymore, unless you go back to the Infinity Engine
games. You'll have to be able to live with only having one or two
henchmen though, no party. If you think you can live with that, I do
recommend it.

--
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 8:08:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

> Is it worth buying?

The add-ons storilines are better, but the reason to buy it is the very good
quality of many user-developed adventures (all dowloadable for free from the
internet).

I never loved very much the NWN system, however, I would have prefeared some
form of party even for solo adventures (and Baldur's Gate allowed both for
multiplay and for a party controlled by a single player).
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Anonymous
August 6, 2005 9:08:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Terry wrote:

>I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
>add ons selling for 15 pounds.
>
>I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
>I heard the add ons were a lot better.
>
>Is it worth buying?
>
>Regards
>

You're the guy who posts tests here instead of alt.test, right?

--
Godwin is a net-nazi
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 9:39:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Terry" <terry@tbean.freeserve.co.uk> once tried to test me with:

> I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
> add ons selling for 15 pounds.
>
> I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
> I heard the add ons were a lot better.
>
> Is it worth buying?

Yes. Not only are the expansions better (esp. Hordes) but it has TONS of
fan-made content that rivals or exceeds professional quality modules. If
you have no interest in fan-made content, then it's probably not worth it.

I recently picked it up again (second copy) for $40 US for the DVD version
because I wanted the DVD version so I can install it easily, and I wanted a
legal second copy so my wife and I can play online together. So all told I
have paid roughly $150 for NWN ($35 for original, got it on sale, $30 for
Undrentide, and $30 for Hordes, plus taxes/shipping).

I do not regret it at all.

If you like playing fan-made modules you can not find a better game out
there. What I find is great about playing the fan made content is that each
module author has their own unique style and flavor, so it's like a
different game, almost, each time you play one. The nice part about having
the Platinum edition is that you will have access to ALL of the fan
content, since some of them rely on the expansion pack content.

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 4:21:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Quaestor wrote:
> Terry wrote:
>> Is it worth buying?
>
> You're the guy who posts tests here instead of alt.test, right?

No, this guy seems a little taller.
August 7, 2005 6:55:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:35:00 +0100, "Terry"
<terry@tbean.freeserve.co.uk> dared speak in front of ME:

>I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
>add ons selling for 15 pounds.
>
>I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
>I heard the add ons were a lot better.

>Is it worth buying?

Depends on what your issues with the original were. If it was the
official campaign, the expansions are much better. Especially Hordes.

If it was the gameplay... it's still the same game. Modified 3.0
Dungeons and Dragons, peudo-realtime, 3rd person view.

Hope that helps, jackass.

--
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try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

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Anonymous
August 8, 2005 10:22:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Your first impression was correct. This is a terrible game. Buggy as
it is, Temple of Elemental Evil is much better.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 1:58:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

> I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
> add ons selling for 15 pounds.
>
> I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
> I heard the add ons were a lot better.
>
> Is it worth buying?

I was a reluctant convert as I much prefer party-style RPG to solitary
play. However the paucity of RPG titles forced my hand and I began
playing it. Overall I've come to enjoy NWN, even though I miss the
party-style systems. I think it's worth the cost for the platinum
edition. I've played through two of the games and they are interesting
and challenging enough to keep you engaged.

The only aspect I don't like is the habit of the NPCs charching into
battle when you don't want them to do so. I constantly have to order
them to stay put.

--
Bob
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 2:11:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In what way is TOEE better? Combat engine? That's about it, I'd say.
NWN is by far a better story, even if it's not a BG2/PST quality one.
ToEE's story is so thin you turn it sideways and it becomes invisble.
And NWN has a lot less bugs and balance issues than ToEE has. Plus
there's no fan content for ToEE and tons of it for NWN. Basically
there's no comparison, ToEE is a light snack at best, NWN is meat and
potatoes that will last you a long time.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 2:32:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org> wrote in message
news:1123507336.530008.12010@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Your first impression was correct. This is a terrible game. Buggy as
> it is, Temple of Elemental Evil is much better.

Well I dont understand what was 'buggy' about NWN, I've never had a problem
with NWN. Now TOEE thats a difrent story, TOEE was bugged to hell, and was
only playable in the begining, by useing user made patches, because their
was no dev suppt etc.

Regards......... John
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 10:41:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

littlemute wrote:
> Your first impression was correct. This is a terrible game. Buggy as
> it is, Temple of Elemental Evil is much better.
>

ROTFLMAO!
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 11:04:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote on 08 elo 2005:

> In what way is TOEE better? Combat engine? That's about it, I'd
> say. NWN is by far a better story, even if it's not a BG2/PST
> quality one. ToEE's story is so thin you turn it sideways and it
> becomes invisble. And NWN has a lot less bugs and balance issues
> than ToEE has. Plus there's no fan content for ToEE and tons of
> it for NWN. Basically there's no comparison, ToEE is a light
> snack at best, NWN is meat and potatoes that will last you a long
> time.

Agreed, ToEE was the king of combat systems, but everywhere else it
just totally fell flat on its face. It's a fun combat simulator but it
has no depth whatsoever.

--
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"
August 9, 2005 2:39:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Terry" <terry@tbean.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D d2ead$oik$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
> add ons selling for 15 pounds.
>
> I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
> I heard the add ons were a lot better.
>
> Is it worth buying?
>
> Regards
>
>

Thanks for all your comments,

I have decided against it.
I originally saw it as a dumbed down baldars gate 2.
That probably hasnt changed.

Regards
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 3:57:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Terry wrote:
>
> Thanks for all your comments,
>
> I have decided against it.
> I originally saw it as a dumbed down baldars gate 2.
> That probably hasnt changed.
>
> Regards

Heh. I played NwN (and SoU and HotU) before trying BGII and, even with
some great suggestions by posters in this group, I just found BGII hard
to look at and boring to play. I play NwN at least once a week and have
done so for almost two years.

Just goes to show how different our tastes can be.


- Sheldon, currently playing the 'Lords of Terror' Mod (Diablo
reimagined)
August 10, 2005 9:10:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96AA80D2DE677knight37m@130.133.1.4:

> "Terry" <terry@tbean.freeserve.co.uk> once tried to test me with:
>
>> Is it worth buying?
>
> Yes. Not only are the expansions better (esp. Hordes) but it has TONS
> of fan-made content that rivals or exceeds professional quality
> modules. If you have no interest in fan-made content, then it's
> probably not worth it.

Can you recommend any single player modules for a stickler who was
disappointed with the original campaign?

(Having to save and restore *30 times* in order to smash a 'stag beetle'
turned me away from even trying the expansions so I'm hoping that a fan-
made entry will restore my 'faith' in this game, so to speak)

Signed,
Warewolf
who had never met a RNG he didn't like...until he tried NWN
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 10:30:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 23:57:48 GMT, Sheldon England wrote:

> I played NwN (and SoU and HotU) before trying BGII and, even with
> some great suggestions by posters in this group, I just found BGII hard
> to look at and boring to play.

Well, BG did look better when it came out. That said, though, I bought and
played BG and BG2 when they were released, and they never really "grabbed"
me. Overall, I probably spent more time playing NWN, too, but I think a lot
has to do with the fact that in NWN you only control one character -- my
favourite style.

M.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 2:35:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Warewolf <warewolfmypants@shaw.ca> once tried to test me with:

> Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns96AA80D2DE677knight37m@130.133.1.4:
>
>> "Terry" <terry@tbean.freeserve.co.uk> once tried to test me with:
>>
>>> Is it worth buying?
>>
>> Yes. Not only are the expansions better (esp. Hordes) but it has TONS
>> of fan-made content that rivals or exceeds professional quality
>> modules. If you have no interest in fan-made content, then it's
>> probably not worth it.
>
> Can you recommend any single player modules for a stickler who was
> disappointed with the original campaign?
>
> (Having to save and restore *30 times* in order to smash a 'stag beetle'
> turned me away from even trying the expansions so I'm hoping that a fan-
> made entry will restore my 'faith' in this game, so to speak)
>

I enjoyed the EOB remake and also the POR remake. There was a series of
modules called Shadowlords I think that was good also. I forgot a lot of
em. You can get reviews and ratings on the modules at NWNVault.

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 12:33:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Yes ToEE is buggy, yes it has a dungeon crawl of the old school variety
from the 80's, and you may as well just kill ALL the NPC's for
expirience as none of them matter at all. Kill everything.

But weren't you personally insulted by the voice acting at the
beginning of NWN? The terrible linearity? The ooze of cheese from the
monitor made me think some of the writers from the D&D cartoon got on
the staff of NWN and wrote the dialog. I said to myself, oh that's
bad, that's horrible, but maybe the combat will be fun. It isn't.
It's sitting there waiting to be able to make a move (which is usually
an attack with a weapon to no specific location) in some catastrophic
real time/turn based hybrid nightmare.

Both of these games revolve around D&D, and the meat and potatoes of
the game is the combat engine. What percentage of the time played in
each game are you spending dealing with combat? 80%? 90%?There's
nothing else important except going and stealing or buying new stuff
and leveling up and finding the next fight. All of these bonuses that
puts NWN on this pedestal, user created maps, etc. that you mention are
just not worth anything if the core component of the game, ie: the
combat system, is pure ass. The combat in NWN isn't mediocre, it's
just plain bad. Since most of the time playing the game is in combat,
this simply adds up to a bad game. Again ToEE's combat is the best for
a fantasy RPG I've played, and one spends 90% of time playing the game
in combat. There's no question which is a better game.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 9:59:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org> Spake Unto All:

>I didn't find any bugs in NWN the day or so I played, just a terrible
>game.

Oh there's bugs too. I even ran in to a game-killing one when I
tortured myself through the OC.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 11:54:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Your right, one can look at the sales data, industry awards, dev supt, and
community supt, and see which game is better.

Hell I know ppl who said the same thing about POR: The Ruins of Myth
Drannor's CE as well 8).

Regards, John

"littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org> wrote in message
news:1123774401.112628.63480@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There's no question which is a better game.
>
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 3:23:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Ok so now you're looking at the video game industry money and marketing
machine metrics for guidance as to what is a good game? They'd have us
all playing resident evil outbreak and master of orion 3. Why are you
even on the newsgroups? Just go read some magazines that have product
articles that are paid for by the 'sponsors.' Because the phillistines
like a game and it sells a lot that's the measure of a good game?
You're just trying to state 'mass opinion' as a reason why NWN is
better rather than just stating the facts as to why it's better as a
counter argument.

The combat engine is far better in ToEE. Most of the time spent in
game during NWN and ToEE is combat. Therefore, ToEE is a better game.
That's what I'm postulating.
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 12:41:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>The combat engine is far better in ToEE. Most of the time spent in
>game during NWN and ToEE is combat. Therefore, ToEE is a better game.
>That's what I'm postulating.

That makes as much sense as saying that a Lada is a better car than a
Ferrari because most of your time is spent doing slow city driving.


TOEE is a combat engine with nothing else, and buggy to boot.
NWN does other things as well as combat (you obviously haven't played
many (if any at all) player made campaigns), so it's combat engine being
lesser than TOEE's is irrelevant since combat is only PART of what is
happening or can happen.

Can you do ANYTHING but kill things in TOEE?

You can in NWN - maybe not much in the OC, but the ENGINE supports it
and it is used in player made campaigns.

No doubt you'll dismiss this as irrelevant since TOEE doesn't do player
stuff so it wouldn't be "fair" to compare them that way.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 4:12:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org> wrote in message
news:1123871024.489938.226630@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>> The combat
engine is far better in ToEE. Most of the time spent in
> game during NWN and ToEE is combat. Therefore, ToEE is a better game.
> That's what I'm postulating.
>

Erm no i'm not i'm looking at the whole picture, you are not, you are
stateing TOEE is a better game because of its combat engine. Because I
disagree with your opinion suddenly i'm going with 'video game industry
money and marketing machine' plot on whats a good CRPG.

You state 80% of your time in NWN is combat related so TOEE is superior
because it has a better combat engine. Fine then they should have billed
TOEE as an 'combat simulator' based on D&D, not an CRPG.


In NWN I can craft items, I can play for hours in user created mods where I
see maybe 5% combat and the other 95% is story related. I can be a Rouge &
hardly ever see any combat by useing my stealth skills, or I can play an
endless hack & slash festetc.

I can play hundreds of modules created by players, with all sorts of story's
from PNP conversions to horror stories, mystery's etc. Can I do this in
TOEE?,

NWN is by far the beter CRPG IMHO, & it earned its awards, fan base etc,
while TOEE recieved praise for it's combat engine.

NWN may not be perfect but it has infinite possibilities and offers things
that TOEE will never have, NWN has a large growing community and dev
support, which are critical to any games success, again something TOEE does
not have.


So you can postulate TOEE its a better game etc. And we can agree to
disagree. Personaly I prefer to play an CRPG with a lil more to offer then
the ability to kill NPCs & an combat simulator based in a fantasy
setting......8)

Regards, John







"
August 15, 2005 12:08:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96AEB2E339369knight37m@130.133.1.4:

> I enjoyed the EOB remake and also the POR remake. There was a series
> of modules called Shadowlords I think that was good also.

All right, I'll give those a try.

Thanks a lot for your help. :) 

> You can get reviews and ratings on the modules at NWNVault.

True enough but with hundreds, in not thousands, of modules to sort
through, it can be rather time consuming.
(Compared to an average session of Planescape?) ;) 

Signed,
Warewolf
who may ask later about what patches and mods to add before applying
BG1Tutu.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 11:34:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Hi Ware, i'd sugest you start here @ the vault:

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.HOF

This isthe Hall of Fame section with the best reviewed/voted modules
available.

Regards, John


"Warewolf" <warewolfmypants@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96B2859941FEBwarewolfshawmail@24.64.223.211...
> Knight37 <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns96AEB2E339369knight37m@130.133.1.4:
>
>> I enjoyed the EOB remake and also the POR remake. There was a series
>> of modules called Shadowlords I think that was good also.
>
> All right, I'll give those a try.
>
> Thanks a lot for your help. :) 
>
>> You can get reviews and ratings on the modules at NWNVault.
>
> True enough but with hundreds, in not thousands, of modules to sort
> through, it can be rather time consuming.
> (Compared to an average session of Planescape?) ;) 
>
> Signed,
> Warewolf
> who may ask later about what patches and mods to add before applying
> BG1Tutu.
August 15, 2005 11:28:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 15 Aug 2005 13:55:12 -0700, "littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org>
dared speak in front of ME:

>I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
>it's hack and it's slash.

My god, are you out of touch.

D&D is no longer de-facto 'hack and slash.' Ever since second
edition, it's had support for other models of gaming.
--
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Anonymous
August 16, 2005 9:41:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> Spake Unto All:

>>I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
>>it's hack and it's slash.
>
>My god, are you out of touch.
>
>D&D is no longer de-facto 'hack and slash.' Ever since second
>edition, it's had support for other models of gaming.

Support, yes. Implemented in games, not really. I mean, Neverwinter
Nights, Baldurs Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil were pretty straight
hack & slash.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
August 16, 2005 9:41:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:41:25 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
<mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> dared speak in front of ME:

>Thusly Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>>>I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
>>>it's hack and it's slash.
>>
>>My god, are you out of touch.
>>
>>D&D is no longer de-facto 'hack and slash.' Ever since second
>>edition, it's had support for other models of gaming.
>
>Support, yes. Implemented in games, not really. I mean, Neverwinter
>Nights, Baldurs Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil were pretty straight
>hack & slash.

Apparently you mean 'implemented in computer games.' D&D was around
long before the CRPG.
--
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Anonymous
August 16, 2005 1:54:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Yet when D&D 3 came out, it had actual cohesive, quality rules based
entirely around miniatures that 2nd edition (total mess from top to
bottom) completely lacked. D&D 3 is a miniature based combat game just
like Mordheim, Confrontation and Warhammer. It's just wrapped in the
trappings of an RPG. Why else would every single 3 or 3.5 basic set
come with minatures and dungeon hallways? White Wolf games don't come
like that.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 2:55:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>Yes I did mean 'implemented in computer games', however all D&D PnP sessions I've ever participated in have been hack&slash too.

That is the fault of your DM and other players, there is a wide variety
of D&D games being run. You can find everything from hack and slash to
RP melodramas with no combat at all (and everything in between). Don't
blame the system for the shortcomings of whoever is using it.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 6:34:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> Spake Unto All:

>>>D&D is no longer de-facto 'hack and slash.' Ever since second
>>>edition, it's had support for other models of gaming.
>>
>>Support, yes. Implemented in games, not really. I mean, Neverwinter
>>Nights, Baldurs Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil were pretty straight
>>hack & slash.
>
>Apparently you mean 'implemented in computer games.' D&D was around
>long before the CRPG.

Yes I did mean 'implemented in computer games', however all D&D PnP
sessions I've ever participated in have been hack&slash too.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 8:25:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org> wrote in message
news:1124139312.444025.178960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Dude, you went on about how many awards the game has won as part of
> your arguement .

I'm not arguing it's a good game with you, I was pointing out that NWN
garnered more awards as well as more sales which translates into success in
the real world. NWN also has a great large community that is still growing
as well as DEV SUPT. TOEE had neither.

> I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
> it's hack and it's slash. If I wanted a game that had stuff other than
> hacking, slashing, murder, I would play something that wasn't D&D
> related. So if you're looking at games that don't do combat all that
> well, but have so much else they are still worth playing: Morrowind and
> Gothic, why waste time playing NWN when these exist? And if you want
> good D&D combat, why waste time playing NWN when ToEE exists?

And i understand that TOEE did appeal to a few ppl to, hell i liked the CS
myself.

D&D is not H&S to me & I have played it from pnp to CPRGs, their has always
been other elements Ie, npc interaction, etc. A Good DM kept the campaigns
interesting thru all means not just combat.

I think if you ask ppl you will find we all have difering opinions on what
elements make an good CRPG, IMHO combat is only asmall part of the mix. As
to why waste time playing NWN, well its fun and diverse and I wasn't aware
that either Gothic or Morrowind were set in Faerun 8).


ch game is better than NWN, I'm saying
> NWN is terrible.

Thats your opinion and your entitled to it, Ie, IMHO TOEE suxor its right
up their with POR: TROMD. As I said, we can agree to disagree 8).

Regards, John Waters
August 16, 2005 8:44:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 16 Aug 2005 09:54:41 -0700, "littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org>
dared speak in front of ME:

>Yet when D&D 3 came out, it had actual cohesive, quality rules based
>entirely around miniatures that 2nd edition (total mess from top to
>bottom) completely lacked. D&D 3 is a miniature based combat game

No, not really. It had cohesive, quality rules that made use of
miniatures for the combat section; but the skills, characterization
section and rouglhy half of the spells had no place in a miniatures
game.

Not that I expect you to understand the difference. It's apparent all
you want out of an RPG is a squad version of a strategy game.

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Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:18:36 PM

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littlemute wrote:

>A lot of people liked the movie Gladiator, it flew off the shelves of
>the video store. Is it a good movie? No,
>

Yes.

>historically it's a mess
>
>

It isn't a history, it's a movie, entertainment.

>(gladiatorial fights were for the most part faked just like
>Pro-wrestling),
>

No, "pro-wrestling" is all faked. Gladiators were partly faked. In
those early years they mostly weren't.

>the dialog is horrible,
>

Actually quite good.

>the fight scenes are just more
>MTV cutaway after 2 seconds of showing someone's face grimacing,
>

I see the problem. We're talking about two different movies. In
"Gladiator," the movie begins with a bird, and a guy looking at it,
grinning, not grimacing. There is nothing about MTV in the whole movie.

>the
>plot is just hollywood hack
>

It's actually a better representation of the actual historical events
upon which it is based than "The Fall of the Roman Empire" of some 40
years before.

[cut the rest of the humdrum monologue]

If you don't like a movie you should at least try to make your remorks
represent something of the truth of it.

[snip the rest, since I cannot imagine you had anything worth saying]


--
Godwin is a net-nazi
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:20:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Kaos wrote:

>On 15 Aug 2005 13:55:12 -0700, "littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org>
>dared speak in front of ME:
>
>
>
>>I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
>>it's hack and it's slash.
>>
>>
>
>My god, are you out of touch.
>
>D&D is no longer de-facto 'hack and slash.' Ever since second
>edition, it's had support for other models of gaming.
>
>

I ran AD&D for 25 years. A great many sessions (all-nighters and such)
went without a blow being struck. It didn't take any special rules to
make D&D a roleplay, it just took a good gm and good players.

--
Godwin is a net-nazi
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:23:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine wrote:

>Support, yes. Implemented in games, not really. I mean, Neverwinter
>Nights, Baldurs Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil were pretty straight
>hack & slash.
>

I run a weekly gm'd NWN game which is mainly RP. When there's fighting
it gets real intense, but the real decisions are made in roleplay.

http://quaestor-universe.org/Outlands.htm

Of course if you consider NWN to be nothing but the single-player
modules that go with the various releases, you have missed out entirely
on its real potential.

--
Godwin is a net-nazi
August 17, 2005 3:25:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:35:00 +0100, "Terry"
<terry@tbean.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>
>I notice that my local store has NWN complete with the 2
>add ons selling for 15 pounds.
>
>I bought ther original NWN and didnt think much of it but
>I heard the add ons were a lot better.
>
>Is it worth buying?
>
>Regards
>

i think it is worth buying, i bought it and especially nice is the new
patch doesn't require you to have the CD in.

br/ajk
--
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception."
Groucho Marx.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 3:33:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

<snip>
>I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
>it's hack and it's slash. If I wanted a game that had stuff other than
>hacking, slashing, murder, I would play something that wasn't D&D
>related.

So what you're really saying is that YOU have never played any D&D that
wasn't hack and slash.

All it seems you are really saying here is: You consider D&D to be
nothing but hack&slash, therefor TOEE is better because it has a better
hack&slash engine.

It is very possible to make modules in NWN that have no hack&slash or
even no combat at all.

Take away the combat and TOEE has nothing left.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 3:46:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thusly "Alex Mars" <demiurge@alexmars.com> Spake Unto All:

>>Yes I did mean 'implemented in computer games', however all D&D PnP sessions I've ever participated in have been hack&slash too.
>
>That is the fault of your DM and other players, there is a wide variety
>of D&D games being run.

Yes, I know.

There are exceptions, like Planescape: Torment, but that's what they
are - exceptions.

--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 4:54:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <1124139312.444025.178960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
littlemute <littlemute@woodenmen.org> wrote:
> I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
> it's hack and it's slash. If I wanted a game that had stuff other than
> hacking, slashing, murder, I would play something that wasn't D&D
> related.

I was almost stunned by the cognitive dissonance at this statement.

RPGs (and by extension, NWN) use some game mechanics to resolve
combat. However, that doesn't mean that playing D&D involves only
combat.

> So if you're looking at games that don't do combat all that
> well, but have so much else they are still worth playing: Morrowind and
> Gothic, why waste time playing NWN when these exist?

I like Morrowind a lot (haven't played Gothic), but it's nothing like
NWN and the two are barely comparable. Morrowind has more exploration,
but less character interaction, no cooperative NPCs to speak of, and
no cooperative multiplayer.

Rick R.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:00:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Best single-player NWN modules I've played so far are Tales of Arterra
(1 and 2) and Shadows over Heliopolis.

Rick R.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:11:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <drn2g1lphrfes946o77qeh69pebgai12bl@4ax.com>,
Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Support, yes. Implemented in games, not really. I mean, Neverwinter
> Nights, Baldurs Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil were pretty straight
> hack & slash.

When I played BG1, lo these many years ago, I trained up Imoen as a
stealth master. She ripped off the Baldur's Gate museum, the mansions
and houses. She hardly fired a shot.
August 17, 2005 5:44:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:20:27 -0700, Quaestor <no-spam@my.place> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>
>>On 15 Aug 2005 13:55:12 -0700, "littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org>
>>dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I understand why the game is appealing to some people, but this is D&D,
>>>it's hack and it's slash.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>My god, are you out of touch.
>>
>>D&D is no longer de-facto 'hack and slash.' Ever since second
>>edition, it's had support for other models of gaming.
>>
>
>I ran AD&D for 25 years. A great many sessions (all-nighters and such)
>went without a blow being struck. It didn't take any special rules to
>make D&D a roleplay, it just took a good gm and good players.

True, but in many cases it took a bit of 'official sanction' (ie rules
for non-combat situations) to point out to potentially good gms and
players that they could do more with the game.

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Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:48:02 PM

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I guess it's in part the fault of the D&D games that have been created
(and made even worse lately in consoles with things like D&D heroes,
dark alliance, etc).
If you have never played non-computer D&D (i.e. pen & paper), then I
see why you said it. But it's a false statement, D&D is definitely
*not* hack and slash. In D&D combat is the means to the end, not the
end. i played entire 3-4 hour sessions without a single fight. It's
called 'roleplaying'
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:51:00 PM

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Thusly rickr@is.rice.edu (Rick Russell) Spake Unto All:

>> Support, yes. Implemented in games, not really. I mean, Neverwinter
>> Nights, Baldurs Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil were pretty straight
>> hack & slash.
>
>When I played BG1, lo these many years ago, I trained up Imoen as a
>stealth master. She ripped off the Baldur's Gate museum, the mansions
>and houses. She hardly fired a shot.

So you fought only perhaps a thousand battles with her instead of five
thousand. That's nice.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:51:01 PM

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Thusly Quaestor <no-spam@my.place> Spake Unto All:

>I ran AD&D for 25 years. A great many sessions (all-nighters and such)
>went without a blow being struck. It didn't take any special rules to
>make D&D a roleplay, it just took a good gm and good players.

Then you really didn't need the AD&D rules at all, did you.

In fact, I'm guessing you did what I did when I GM'd: never played an
official campaign and completely ignored the rules. Not that I told
the players that, of course.


--
"Forgive Russia. Ignore Germany. Punish France."
-- Condoleezza Rice, at the time National Security Adviser, on how to deal
with european opposition to the war in Iraq. 2003.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:57:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"In D&D combat is the means to the end, not the
end. i played entire 3-4 hour sessions without a single fight. It's
called 'roleplaying' "

The last ads I saw for D&D were in PC gamer.
"we made first level"
"We gave boss monsters their first jobs"
"We invented god mode"

ALL three ads depicting imagery of characters in combat. Again, all
basic D&D sets come with a board and minatures these days. Contrast
this to how White Wolf markets their World of Darkness stuff (Street
fighter and EXalted aside). What's a more hack and slash game than
D&D? Hackmaster? It's not like D&D is or ever was dripping with
backstory or metaplot. D20's exploded all over the place, but straight
D&D? Hack. Kill. Murder if your alignment can allow it and level up!
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 11:58:56 PM

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Mean_Chlorine wrote:

>Thusly Quaestor <no-spam@my.place> Spake Unto All:
>
>
>
>>I ran AD&D for 25 years. A great many sessions (all-nighters and such)
>>went without a blow being struck. It didn't take any special rules to
>>make D&D a roleplay, it just took a good gm and good players.
>>
>>
>
>Then you really didn't need the AD&D rules at all, did you.
>
>In fact, I'm guessing you did what I did when I GM'd: never played an
>official campaign and completely ignored the rules. Not that I told
>the players that, of course.
>

Official campaign? You mean those big modules they sold? Never really
looked at them. I created everything I ever ran.

I have this enormous binder, 3" thick, titled QD&D, with my own rules in
it. That alongside the 3" binder with the whole of AD&D in that, was
what I ran by. Mostly I used only one rule:

Given the situation has I have described it, and the characters as I
know them, what would such a character do?

--
Godwin is a net-nazi
August 18, 2005 7:22:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:58:56 -0700, Quaestor <no-spam@my.place> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>
>>Thusly Quaestor <no-spam@my.place> Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>I ran AD&D for 25 years. A great many sessions (all-nighters and such)
>>>went without a blow being struck. It didn't take any special rules to
>>>make D&D a roleplay, it just took a good gm and good players.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Then you really didn't need the AD&D rules at all, did you.
>>
>>In fact, I'm guessing you did what I did when I GM'd: never played an
>>official campaign and completely ignored the rules. Not that I told
>>the players that, of course.
>>
>
>Official campaign? You mean those big modules they sold? Never really
>looked at them.

I looked at them, to see where the bar was set. And found it a bit
low.

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