Where is my next game? (death of gameplay)

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Where is my next game?

I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.

M.U.L.E.
The Sword of Fargol
Zak McCraken
Day of the Tentacle
Wasteland
SimCity
Auto Duel
Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
Xcom
Command and Conquer
Diablo 1 & 2
Warcraft 1 & 2
Warlords 2
Jagged Alliance 2
Fallout 1 & 2
Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
Civ 1, 2 and 3
Alpha Centari
Tropico
The Sims

I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.

But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
(not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
games so hard to come by these days?

I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality.
There doesn't seem to be anything playable coming down the pipe. I would
again drop money on things like Diablo 3, Baulders Gate 3, Fallout 3,
Xcom 4 (a real one), or Jagged Alliance 3. However, I highly doubt that
any of these will become reality, and even if they did, they would be so
skewed to the mass FPS market that they would be unplayable. (Warcraft 3
is the perfect example of how to destroy something wonderful, and
Fallout 3 / Diablo 3 will be the next great examples of "Disappointing
On Appearance" games)

Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must everything
be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason to play?

If a game is 3d just for the sake of being 3d, why am I spending money
on it? I am not interested in a rich subversive world, if it isn't fun
to play. I'll take 2D anytime, if the game is fun.

I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3
78 answers Last reply
More about where game death gameplay
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in message
    news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
    >
    >
    > But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce these
    > days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow full of
    > money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game (not Fallout
    > 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't remember the
    > last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling games so hard
    > to come by these days?
    >

    I too have FPS motion sickness, but from my experience it is very much
    reduced when playing third-person games (looking at your character).
    Although I can only speak for myself, games like Neverwinter Nights or WoW
    do not cause me problems, while things like Halflife/Doom/ect.. require that
    I lie down every 30 minutes to recover. Maybe you have the same problem.
    Also, don't play with the lights down -- if you can still see a motionless
    world in your peripheral vision, your brain might not get confused. Much
    preferable to a barf bag.
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> once tried to test me with:

    > Where is my next game?
    > Diablo 1 & 2

    If you liked Diablo 2 you might enjoy Dungeon Siege 2. I recommend getting
    the demo at least.

    --

    Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

    Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774
    @weber.videotron.net:

    > I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
    > me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions.

    Nice list.
    tried Dominions 2?
    Space Empires IV?

    Presently Im also slumping. Dominions 3 is in beta. Space Empires V is in
    beta. A great music game Im presently helping alpha test. Im back to
    playing free online worlds just for some variety

    Gandalf Parker
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Take some dramamine!!

    "Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in message
    news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
    >
    > Where is my next game?
    >
    > I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
    > Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
    > sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
    > Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
    >
    > M.U.L.E.
    > The Sword of Fargol
    > Zak McCraken
    > Day of the Tentacle
    > Wasteland
    > SimCity
    > Auto Duel
    > Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
    > Xcom
    > Command and Conquer
    > Diablo 1 & 2
    > Warcraft 1 & 2
    > Warlords 2
    > Jagged Alliance 2
    > Fallout 1 & 2
    > Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
    > Civ 1, 2 and 3
    > Alpha Centari
    > Tropico
    > The Sims
    >
    > I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
    >
    > But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
    > these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
    > full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
    > (not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
    > remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
    > games so hard to come by these days?
    >
    > I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
    > industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality.
    > There doesn't seem to be anything playable coming down the pipe. I would
    > again drop money on things like Diablo 3, Baulders Gate 3, Fallout 3,
    > Xcom 4 (a real one), or Jagged Alliance 3. However, I highly doubt that
    > any of these will become reality, and even if they did, they would be so
    > skewed to the mass FPS market that they would be unplayable. (Warcraft 3
    > is the perfect example of how to destroy something wonderful, and
    > Fallout 3 / Diablo 3 will be the next great examples of "Disappointing
    > On Appearance" games)
    >
    > Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must everything
    > be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason to play?
    >
    > If a game is 3d just for the sake of being 3d, why am I spending money
    > on it? I am not interested in a rich subversive world, if it isn't fun
    > to play. I'll take 2D anytime, if the game is fun.
    >
    > I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
    > me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)
    >
    >
    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

    Dale M <NaDa noway.ca> wrote:

    > Where is my next game? I can't play (or watch anyone else play)
    > first person shooters (FPS). Not because they are brainless,

    They are not brainless. I have found pickup games of Tribes 2 to
    be chock full of strategy. All you have to do is join a pickup
    game with two dozen players or more, find a nice spot/method to
    kill the enemy players, and test your strategies.

    > but because I have doom induced motion sickness (D.I.M.S. yes
    > it exists).

    I have that problem, but it wasn't caused by Doom.

    ....
    > Why are fun and compelling games so hard to come by these days?

    A short attention span?

    > Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must
    > everything be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason
    > to play?

    Isn't that what you're asking for? A game that's like a new movie,
    something you can be entertained with for a while and then move on
    to something else? Any solid real-time strategy or first-person
    shooter has loads of replay value, in my opinion. I see no
    reason to stop playing them. But maybe that's partly because I do
    multiplayer games, so my games remain very lively.

    Age of Empires III will be released maybe in October. If it is a
    standard real-time strategy RTS game, then I probably will buy it.


    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Path: newssvr22.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm02.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!atl-c04.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
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  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
    Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.

    These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
    depressing.

    olaf
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M wrote:
    > Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days?

    That's kinda subjective, dontcha think? I find The Sims (how can people
    possibly enjoy that?) Tropico and a couple of other games you mentioned to
    be a total bore myself.

    Having said that, I agree that TB games (strategy and RPG alike) are
    becoming increasingly rare much to my despair also - so much that I've gone
    back to playing japanese PS1 console RPG's on a computer (using the PSXEven
    emulator) and I'm having a blast with them. All over again, since I've
    played most games thru the end already back in the day.

    They can also be had very cheap nowadays but it's an acquired taste if you
    havent played those kind of games before (Vagrant Story is one of my
    favorites despite the fact that it is not turn based. FF7, 8 and 9 in
    particular are also great. But there are *tons* out there for that system).

    One can only play BG2, PS:T and Fallout a few dozen times before things
    start getting somewhat predictable.
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in
    news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net:

    > Where is my next game?
    >
    > I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
    > Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
    > sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
    > Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
    <snip>
    >
    > But where is my next game?
    Dominions 2 and Galactic Civilizatons are not on your list, but they would
    probably suit your taste.

    Alex.
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

    John Doe <jdoe@usenet.love.invalid> wrote in
    news:Xns96C7A754171EEwisdomfolly@207.115.63.158:

    > Dale M <NaDa noway.ca> wrote:
    >
    >> Where is my next game? I can't play (or watch anyone else play)
    >> first person shooters (FPS). Not because they are brainless,
    >
    > They are not brainless. I have found pickup games of Tribes 2 to
    > be chock full of strategy. All you have to do is join a pickup
    > game with two dozen players or more, find a nice spot/method to
    > kill the enemy players, and test your strategies.

    I agree with that, but unfortunately there's too much clicking for one unit
    of strategy in those games. And then it's hard to be sure if the strategy
    works well or not. While being somewhat successful against one players it
    may crumble against players with somewhat faster reflexes (and not
    necessarily better strategies). So if you don't like those games' non-
    strategic components, it's just too much wasted time on unnecessary trials.
    If there would be better support for automation, I could submit my bot to
    some tourney in the evening and have results of hundreds or thousands of
    matches in the morning, so that I could really see how well my strategy
    works. But of course, that's just a blue dream... :(

    Alex.
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Thus spake Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca>, Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Anno
    Domini:

    >
    >Where is my next game?
    >
    >I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
    >Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
    >sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
    >Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
    >
    >M.U.L.E.
    >The Sword of Fargol
    >Zak McCraken
    >Day of the Tentacle
    >Wasteland
    >SimCity
    >Auto Duel
    >Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
    >Xcom
    >Command and Conquer
    >Diablo 1 & 2
    >Warcraft 1 & 2
    >Warlords 2
    >Jagged Alliance 2
    >Fallout 1 & 2
    >Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
    >Civ 1, 2 and 3
    >Alpha Centari
    >Tropico
    >The Sims
    >
    >I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
    >
    >But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
    >these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
    >full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
    >(not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
    >remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
    >games so hard to come by these days?

    If you liked Fallout you might be interested in Metalheart: Replicants
    Rampage:

    http://www.metalheart.ru/english/info.html

    --
    A killfile is a friend for life.

    Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Dale M wrote:

    > Where is my next game?

    Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic might appeal to you, and possibly Kohan 2:
    King of Wars (it's a RTS, but slow and a little TBS-like). In a few weeks,
    Civilization 4 will be out also. Since Galactic Civilization wasn't on your
    list, you night also want to give it a whirl (a 2003 release), especially
    with the sequel coming out in a few months.

    M.
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 2005-09-04, Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
    > Thus spake Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca>, Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Anno
    > Domini:
    >
    >>
    >>Where is my next game?

    If you liked XCom, I've heard that Rebelstar Tactical Command
    will be similar.


    --
    Toby.
    Add the word afiduluminag to the subject
    field to circumvent my email filters.
    Ignore any mail delivery error.
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M wrote:
    >
    > Where is my next game?
    >
    > I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
    > me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)
    >
    > http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3
    >


    Thanks to everyone for the game suggestions. I have a list here of 9 or
    so games to explore. I have never had such a positive response to a post
    before, thanks again.

    By the way, I first discovered I had DIMS while playing Wolfenstien back
    in the 486 days. For three consecutive days I found myself wondering
    (while lying in bed with the room spinning around me) if I had caught
    the "flu"? Before I clued in that the damn game was making me sick. :)
    Every once in a while I try a newer FPS just to see if they have somehow
    fixed whatever was causing my illness, but they have yet to perfect the
    3D tunnel. Oh well, it has probably saved me a lot of money on games.
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns96C79B5145B28knight37m@130.133.1.4...
    > Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> once tried to test me with:
    >
    >> Where is my next game?
    >> Diablo 1 & 2
    >
    > If you liked Diablo 2 you might enjoy Dungeon Siege 2. I recommend getting
    > the demo at least.

    Unfortunately my housemate is exactly like Dale in terms of Motion Sickness.
    And DS 2 makes him want to hurl after 30 minutes of play.

    I don't get motion sickness from well done 3d FPS's, but DS2 give me a
    tickle in the guts after a while as well. In other words Dale good luck. :(

    Ceo-
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    BuckFush wrote:

    > Dale M wrote:
    > > Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days?
    >
    > That's kinda subjective, dontcha think? I find The Sims (how can people
    > possibly enjoy that?) Tropico and a couple of other games you mentioned to
    > be a total bore myself.
    >

    I tried the 'Busting out' version of the Sims. I found it incredibly tedious and
    dull. I don't want to simulate the things I play games to forget about in real
    life. It's staggering to me how popular the Sims is.

    >
    > Having said that, I agree that TB games (strategy and RPG alike) are
    > becoming increasingly rare much to my despair also - so much that I've gone
    > back to playing japanese PS1 console RPG's on a computer

    Amen. I still go back from time to time to replay my favourite TB RPGs on my old
    PSX.

    > (using the PSXEven
    > emulator) and I'm having a blast with them. All over again, since I've
    > played most games thru the end already back in the day.
    >
    > They can also be had very cheap nowadays but it's an acquired taste if you
    > havent played those kind of games before (Vagrant Story is one of my
    > favorites despite the fact that it is not turn based.

    Fantastic game. My choice for best video game of all time. Gameplay, graphics,
    and style all in one. Brilliant.

    I can't believe the great ideas in VS haven't been incorporated into later
    games. The title system alone would make most video games much better,
    particularly in the replay value department. The Madden football games have
    something similar, to their credit.

    > FF7, 8 and 9 in
    > particular are also great. But there are *tons* out there for that system).
    >

    I assume you have played FF Tactics (NOT the GBA sequel). If not, find it and
    play it. Best tactical combat RPG I've ever played. Lots of replay value in this
    one, too, since your party is customizable and there are so many different
    classes and skills to try.
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Ceowulf wrote:

    > "Knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:Xns96C79B5145B28knight37m@130.133.1.4...
    > > Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> once tried to test me with:
    > >
    > >> Where is my next game?
    > >> Diablo 1 & 2
    > >
    > > If you liked Diablo 2 you might enjoy Dungeon Siege 2. I recommend getting
    > > the demo at least.
    >
    > Unfortunately my housemate is exactly like Dale in terms of Motion Sickness.
    > And DS 2 makes him want to hurl after 30 minutes of play.
    >

    Medal of Honor for the PSX did that to me. I don't play many first-person
    perspective games, due to my dislike of the required tunnel vision. I like to be
    able to see my surroundings, especially in combat. Games that are really dark
    are a turn-off for me, too.

    >
    > I don't get motion sickness from well done 3d FPS's, but DS2 give me a
    > tickle in the guts after a while as well. In other words Dale good luck. :(
    >
    > Ceo-

    I played Virtua Cop when I got a Dreamcast bundle, but that one did weird things
    to my eyes after a few minutes of play. First time I played it I thought I might
    be having a stroke.
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Grackle wrote:

    > "Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in message
    > news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
    > >
    > >
    > > But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce these
    > > days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow full of
    > > money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game (not Fallout
    > > 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't remember the
    > > last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling games so hard
    > > to come by these days?
    > >
    >
    > I too have FPS motion sickness, but from my experience it is very much
    > reduced when playing third-person games (looking at your character).

    Yes. Third person games don't bother me.

    >
    > Although I can only speak for myself, games like Neverwinter Nights or WoW
    > do not cause me problems, while things like Halflife/Doom/ect.. require that
    > I lie down every 30 minutes to recover. Maybe you have the same problem.
    > Also, don't play with the lights down -- if you can still see a motionless
    > world in your peripheral vision, your brain might not get confused. Much
    > preferable to a barf bag.

    Sitting farther back from the screen (for the same reason as the lights
    suggestion) helps.
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    dawg wrote:

    > Take some dramamine!!
    >

    Personally, if I have to put drugs in my body just to play a game, I'll pass on the
    game entirely. Who knows what long-term effects the drugs are going to have?
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Olaf wrote:

    > My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
    > Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
    >
    > These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
    > depressing.
    >
    > olaf

    Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming from
    Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
    heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
    bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> a écrit dans le message de news:
    hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
    > SimCity
    > Civ 1, 2 and 3

    > I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
    > me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)

    Since these 4 are "thinking" games, you might want to try computer wargames,
    such as those from www.battlefront.com or from http://www.matrixgames.com/ .

    Both companies usually have downloadable demos, so you can check if this is
    your style of play.
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
    spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

    >
    >Where is my next game?
    >
    >I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
    >Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
    >sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).

    Just a thought, but you may want to check your refresh rate.

    This is one of the annoying things about windows XP, that without a 3rd
    party app like refreshlock, it will happily let any game/app change the
    refresh rate.

    I discovered this playing City of Heroes, which for some unknown reason
    wants to set the refresh rate to 60Hz.
    Under win98se, it wasn't allowed to so there was no problem, under XP it
    could, and so I got nauseated pretty quickly until I found out what was
    going on.
    Even with it set to a fixed rate in XP, and the nVidia drivers set to
    use nothing under 75Hz, XP was happy to let CoH change it to 60Hz

    This may not have anything to do with your problem, but it's worth a
    look in case it does (or contributes.)


    Xocyll
    --
    I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
    a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
    Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
    FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    RogerM wrote:
    > Olaf wrote:
    >
    >
    >>My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
    >>Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
    >>
    >>These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
    >>depressing.
    >>
    >>olaf
    >
    >
    > Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming from
    > Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
    > heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
    > bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
    >
    >
    >
    Got some examples? Been yearnin' for a good boardgame, can't find any
    place that sells old AH type bookcase games anymore. I miss them!
    Leo
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Leo wrote:

    > RogerM wrote:
    > > Olaf wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
    > >>Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
    > >>
    > >>These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
    > >>depressing.
    > >>
    > >>olaf
    > >
    > >
    > > Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming from
    > > Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
    > > heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
    > > bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > Got some examples? Been yearnin' for a good boardgame, can't find any
    > place that sells old AH type bookcase games anymore. I miss them!
    > Leo

    Wargame type:
    Age of Mythology
    Warcraft

    Miniatures type:
    Heroclix (collectible)
    Heroscape (non-collectible, but expandable)

    Euro-type:
    Puerto Rico (brilliant design)
    Carcassone (many expansions and variants)
    Setlers of Catan (simplified empire-building)
    Ticket To Ride (simple but fun train game)

    These are some of my favourites. I strongly reccomend checking out this site:

    www.boardgamegeek.com

    Anyone into boardgames should know this site.
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

    On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 11:13:56 GMT, RogerM
    <rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

    >There is a crop of fine games coming from
    >Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
    >heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
    >bad.

    If what you _want_ is heavy wargames, you can get those too. Decision
    Games is about to come out with a new edition of War in the Pacific
    that has 9000 counters and 12 maps.

    On the other end of things, Multi Man Publishing recently released
    Fire in the Skies, a 1-map game of the Pacific theater that takes only
    a couple hours to play.

    The best place to learn about board wargames is Consimworld,
    www.consimworld.com .

    Dav Vandenbroucke
    davanden at cox dot net
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

    QQalextiQQ@videotron.few.useless.chars.ca (alexti) wrote:
    > John Doe <jdoe@usenet.love.invalid> wrote in

    >> [FPS] are not brainless. I have found pickup games of Tribes 2
    >> to be chock full of strategy. All you have to do is join a
    >> pickup game with two dozen players or more, find a nice
    >> spot/method to kill the enemy players, and test your
    >> strategies.

    > I agree with that, but unfortunately there's too much clicking
    > for one unit of strategy in those games.

    You mean too fast. You can devise strategies which take only a few
    clicks, that is what I was saying.

    > And then it's hard to be sure if the strategy works well or not.

    It works well if they die.

    > While being somewhat successful against one players it
    > may crumble against players with somewhat faster reflexes (and
    > not necessarily better strategies).

    I find that the strategy is very deep and the enemy has little
    information about what you're preparing to do (or maybe even what
    you're doing). Yes, being able to execute a few quick keystrokes
    and mouse clicks probably is necessary. But that is little compared
    to a typical real-time strategy game (without
    automation).

    But I'm using the ultimate automation in RTS, so
    I'm very happy with it.

    > So if you don't like those games' non-strategic components,

    In most pickup games, your partners really don't care what you are
    doing. You are free to do whatever you want. It's not like one on
    one. You don't necessarily have to care whether your strategy is
    helping your side win, you can just judge your efficiency. Players
    come and go during the course of the game. Everyone is free to do
    whatever they want to do, and you will find most of your partners
    are gung ho for frantic offensives. That leaves plenty of room for
    defensive strategies, and there are many possibilities since you are
    not under pressure.

    If I didn't have RTS down to a science (automation wise), I probably
    would be playing FPS. Then again, I have trouble with dizziness in
    some FPS games. So sad, because the true 3-D world of Tribes 2 is
    just plain awesome. Have you ever jumped off of a tall structure and
    glided down to earth for a soft landing? It's one of those 'do it
    again' things.

    Have fun anyway.
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote:

    >
    >Where is my next game?

    There's a great strategy 6 pack game bundle out right now from
    Paradox. Games included are:
    1. Hearts of Iron
    2. Europa Universalis 2
    3. Europa Universalis 2 - Asia Chapters
    4. Victoria
    5. Two Thrones
    6. Crown of the North

    Lots of decent gaming in there and it only cost me $19.99 CAD at EB.
    It's worth the price just for HOI and EU2 alone.
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote:
    >Where is my next game?
    >
    >I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
    >Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
    >sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
    >Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
    >
    >M.U.L.E.
    >The Sword of Fargol
    >Zak McCraken
    >Day of the Tentacle
    >Wasteland
    >SimCity
    >Auto Duel
    >Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
    >Xcom
    >Command and Conquer
    >Diablo 1 & 2
    >Warcraft 1 & 2
    >Warlords 2
    >Jagged Alliance 2
    >Fallout 1 & 2
    >Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
    >Civ 1, 2 and 3
    >Alpha Centari
    >Tropico
    >The Sims
    >
    >I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
    >
    >But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
    >these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
    >full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
    >(not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
    >remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
    >games so hard to come by these days?
    >
    >I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
    >industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality.
    >There doesn't seem to be anything playable coming down the pipe. I would
    >again drop money on things like Diablo 3, Baulders Gate 3, Fallout 3,
    >Xcom 4 (a real one), or Jagged Alliance 3. However, I highly doubt that
    >any of these will become reality, and even if they did, they would be so
    >skewed to the mass FPS market that they would be unplayable. (Warcraft 3
    >is the perfect example of how to destroy something wonderful, and
    >Fallout 3 / Diablo 3 will be the next great examples of "Disappointing
    >On Appearance" games)
    >
    >Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must everything
    >be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason to play?
    >
    >If a game is 3d just for the sake of being 3d, why am I spending money
    >on it? I am not interested in a rich subversive world, if it isn't fun
    >to play. I'll take 2D anytime, if the game is fun.
    >
    >I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
    >me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)
    >
    >http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3

    You seem to like strategy and management games. Have you tried the demos
    available at http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ ?
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 12:08:11 -0700, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
    wrote:


    >This is one of the annoying things about windows XP, that without a 3rd
    >party app like refreshlock, it will happily let any game/app change the
    >refresh rate.

    Not on ATI cards. You just need to go to the monitor settings tab and
    uncheck use DDC and then set it to use the same refresh rate as your
    desktop. All my games play at 100hz without a 3rd party app, the same
    as my desktop is set to.
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "RogerM" <rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
    news:431C26CA.14E6E171@ns.sympatico.ca...
    > Ceowulf wrote:

    >> Unfortunately my housemate is exactly like Dale in terms of Motion
    >> Sickness.
    >> And DS 2 makes him want to hurl after 30 minutes of play.
    >>
    >
    > Medal of Honor for the PSX did that to me. I don't play many first-person
    > perspective games, due to my dislike of the required tunnel vision. I like
    > to be
    > able to see my surroundings, especially in combat. Games that are really
    > dark
    > are a turn-off for me, too.

    I am recently attempting to give Morrowind on the Xbox a go, and I can't do
    it. The TV's interpretation of 3d graphics is a killer. Whereas a well made
    3d first person perspective game on the computer and my good LCD doesn't
    worry me in the slightest. I'm not sure why that is but I guess it says
    something about quality?

    Ceo-
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
    news:ue5ph1l3cp24mr6p21i4ff1u9qrbhf0b19@4ax.com...
    > Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
    > spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
    >
    >>
    >>Where is my next game?
    >>
    >>I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
    >>Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
    >>sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
    >
    > Just a thought, but you may want to check your refresh rate.
    >
    > This is one of the annoying things about windows XP, that without a 3rd
    > party app like refreshlock, it will happily let any game/app change the
    > refresh rate.

    Or get a _good_ high quality LCD. There goes the refresh rate problem.

    Ceo-
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Olaf wrote:
    > Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
    > kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
    > my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
    > computer.

    Sounds like you need to upgrade to Friends 2.0
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "RogerM" <rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
    news:431C2876.FF3786A0@ns.sympatico.ca...
    > Olaf wrote:
    >
    >> My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either
    >> TB
    >> Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
    >>
    >> These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
    >> depressing.
    >>
    >> olaf
    >
    > Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming
    > from
    > Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well.
    > Not
    > heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but
    > not
    > bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
    Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
    kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
    my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
    computer.

    olaf
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    In article <AkmTe.228706$0f.167929@tornado.texas.rr.com>, "Olaf" <olaf73GETRIDOFTHIS@swbellDOT.net> wrote:
    >"RogerM" <rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
    >news:431C2876.FF3786A0@ns.sympatico.ca...
    >> Olaf wrote:
    >>
    >>> My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either
    >>> TB
    >>> Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
    >>>
    >>> These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
    >>> depressing.
    >>>
    >>> olaf
    >>
    >> Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming
    >> from
    >> Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well.
    >> Not
    >> heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but
    >> not
    >> bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
    >Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
    >kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
    >my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
    >computer.

    A lot of today's boardgames have a little more meat in them than the
    stuff from the 1930s (Monopoly, Scrabble). Try again with some modern
    games.

    Alan
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Olaf wrote:

    > Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
    > kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
    > my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
    > computer.
    >
    > olaf

    Yup. It was the same for me. I found friends to game with at a local game store
    several years ago. It is the only regular opportunity for me to game with
    others.
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    RogerM wrote:
    > BuckFush wrote:
    >> They can also be had very cheap nowadays but it's an acquired taste
    >> if you havent played those kind of games before (Vagrant Story is
    >> one of my favorites despite the fact that it is not turn based.
    >
    > Fantastic game. My choice for best video game of all time. Gameplay,
    > graphics, and style all in one. Brilliant.

    Absolutely, it's that rare case where the sum of the individual (and
    brilliant) parts make for an even better whole. Unmatched even today,
    Yasumi Matsuno is a bloody genius. The game's only drawback is that it
    eventually ends.

    > I assume you have played FF Tactics (NOT the GBA sequel). If not,
    > find it and play it. Best tactical combat RPG I've ever played. Lots
    > of replay value in this one, too, since your party is customizable
    > and there are so many different classes and skills to try.

    Yup, also loved FFT which was made by the same team who later worked on VS
    and was largely working on FF12 when Matsuno's health problems forced him to
    leave a couple of weeks ago.

    Didn't much care for the GBA version though, there are better tactical games
    on that platform like Advance Wars and Fire Emblem.
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Why are we constantly getting posts like this? What is it once a week
    now? There is tons of great stuff coming out from ALL over the globe
    that are not MMO's, FPS's or sports games. I feel that I must insult
    you somehow for dissing on Warcraft 3 but the hope inside you is
    already dead, so there just no point. I liked Super Street Fighter 2
    Turbo Perfect. I liked warcraft 2. Mash them together and you get
    Warcraft 3.

    Fallout 3 is being done by Bethesda. I have high hopes. I found the
    combat in the og fallout's to be simply comical. Blasting away at
    people with high powered projectile weapons at point blank range really
    does well for the suspension of disbelief.

    The closest to a new Xcom is coming out for the Game Boy Advance by the
    Laser Squad Nemesis peoples.

    Jagged Alliance, no news is good news on that one as unless the
    original team is involved en masse, the license will probably go to
    some inferior developers with more money and time than sense (like
    Master of Orion 3).

    My suggestion to you is Port Royale 2.
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    I'd replace your two wargame types with Paths to Glory and Game of
    Thrones (Age of Mythology is a bad puerto rico clone).

    I got the warcraft game for cheap but have never gotten in a play. How
    is it?
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

    On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:21:01 GMT, amonroejj@yahoo.com (R. Alan Monroe)
    wrote:

    >A lot of today's boardgames have a little more meat in them than the
    >stuff from the 1930s (Monopoly, Scrabble).

    I never had much use for Monopoly, but Scrabble is an elegant game.
    It's best played with people who are trying to find the most
    interesting words, rather than the ones who have memorized every three
    letter word with a z or x in it.

    Dav Vandenbroucke
    davanden at cox dot net
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    On 7 Sep 2005 12:01:22 -0700, "littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org>
    wrote:

    >Why are we constantly getting posts like this? What is it once a week
    >now? There is tons of great stuff coming out from ALL over the globe
    >that are not MMO's, FPS's or sports games.

    Given the mass of unaldurated garbage that is considered "top-notch", you
    might as well expect this to be a FAQ.

    >Jagged Alliance, no news is good news on that one as unless the
    >original team is involved en masse, the license will probably go to
    >some inferior developers with more money and time than sense (like
    >Master of Orion 3).

    JA is changing to a real-time system, which will cause previous tactics to
    break up entirely. There's also the fact that the game is switching from
    free-form open terrain to mission based. Both of these are against the
    purpose of JA - tactical combat.

    While JA might be successful, I strongly doubt it - squad based tactics do
    not work as well in real-time, especially when given the current interface
    technology.
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    I don't know, the pause and give orders real-time in XCom Apocalypse,
    (or even Total Annilation, although that is not squad based) worked OK.
    (This assumes that P&GO can be done in this JA version of cause)
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    Dale M wrote:
    > Where is my next game?
    >
    > I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
    > Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
    > sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
    > Here are some examples of games that I loved to play. . . .
    >
    > I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
    >
    > But where is my next game? . . . Why are fun and compelling
    > games so hard to come by these days?
    >
    > I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
    > industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality. . . .
    >
    > Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days?

    I finally decided to take a look at this thread, since it's so much
    like the one I started a little while ago ("Still questing after the
    elusive perfect game").

    I've read some of Costikyan's articles too--and at times they seem to
    reflect my view of things. But Costikyan, like me, is an old-fogie
    wargamer (though unlike me, he's a wargame designer). And sometimes I
    wonder if the problem is just aging. The sad fact is, kids have more
    fun. When you're a child, life is full of magic and wonder. Some of
    us grow up wanting to hold on to that magic and wonder--and for a while
    we manage to mix the joy of childhood with the seriousness of
    adulthood. But how long can it go on?

    If you're young, Dale, maybe you're addicted and should consider
    broadening your horizons beyond game playing. But since you listed
    M.U.L.E. as one of your favorite games (and I'm guessing it's the
    original and not the recently rereleased version), maybe you're closer
    to my age--in which case you may be in the same boat as me.

    In that case, I can't offer much help, since I'm having the same
    problem myself. But today I'm wondering if the answer, for me, may be
    the same as above: maybe I'm just too old for games. The old classic
    games seem dull to me, because I've been there and done that; the new
    games are aimed at people who are the same age I was back in my heyday
    of wargaming, so I can't get into those either.

    In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
    Maybe we need to take time out, step back, and take a good look at our
    life; then maybe we'll see where (if anywhere) game playing fits into
    it.

    Today I'm toying with the notion of getting back into old-fashioned
    games like chess and bridge. I'm still a novice at chess, and I never
    did any more than teach myself beginning bridge on the computer. From
    time to time I tell myself I'd like to become a decent player of those
    two games--and I like the fact that there's so much written about them.
    And yet--I'm just not that sharp-thinking a person; so it always turns
    out they're not my kind of games.

    I like something that engages my imagination more--with an AI that
    won't beat the pants off me every time. Something I can while away a
    couple hours with in the evening, with my feet kicked up, a cup of tea
    to drink, and some favorite music playing. Something that makes a nice
    respite from work and household chores. Something that provides some
    mental exercise (because I guess that's the only real value of solo
    game playing) without making me work too hard; and something that's
    also entertaining.

    One recurrent problem I run into is that entertainment always wears
    off. The entertainment aspect of any game is like the flavor in a
    stick of gum: there's always plenty of chewing left to do after the
    flavor is gone--and then you have to decide how much you wanted the
    chewing and how much you just wanted the flavor. Me, I'm a "flavor"
    guy--so I've always preferred candy to gum. Yet, I know there's
    nothing good about candy except that it temporarily satisfies my
    unnatural sweet tooth. I'd be better off showing some discipline and
    sticking to more nutritious foods.

    The same could be true of games. Instead of just lazily feeding my
    entertainment addiction, I might do well to look for something of
    deeper value in games: e.g., mental exercise or social interaction.
    There are *lots* of games around that provide excellent mental exercise
    (chess alone could provide a lifetime of it). There are lots more that
    make for stimulating social interaction (the "German" board games, for
    example--e.g., Carcassonne or Settlers of Catan).

    When I was sixteen, I took wargaming very seriously; I thought I was
    learning all about military art/history/science and would greatly
    benefit from it in my life. But at the same time, I was just an
    overgrown kid playing army. And now I'm a much older kid, still
    playing army--and wondering why it's not as satisfying anymore.

    I have a sneaking suspicion it's not the gaming industry--it's life.

    --Patrick
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    >
    > I finally decided to take a look at this thread, since it's so much
    > like the one I started a little while ago ("Still questing after the
    > elusive perfect game").
    >
    > I've read some of Costikyan's articles too--and at times they seem to
    > reflect my view of things. But Costikyan, like me, is an old-fogie
    > wargamer (though unlike me, he's a wargame designer). And sometimes I
    > wonder if the problem is just aging. The sad fact is, kids have more
    > fun. When you're a child, life is full of magic and wonder. Some of
    > us grow up wanting to hold on to that magic and wonder--and for a while
    > we manage to mix the joy of childhood with the seriousness of
    > adulthood. But how long can it go on?
    >

    < lots of good stuff snipped >

    Very well said! I have wondered this about myself on more than one
    occasion. Been board gaming since the early 80s (AH games and what
    not) and the computer gaming world was a natural progression for me.
    But as time goes on it does seem like just about every "new" game feels
    the same as some other game I have already played. I used to think
    that the industry is running out of ideas, and it may be true, but your
    post has made me think about this and take a look inward. I seem to
    have these burnout symptoms...endlessly hopping around from game to
    game, never being interested enough to finish (I can count on one hand
    how many games I have actually completed over the past 10 years),
    nothing on the horizon looks appealing.

    I was talking with my father the other day, who is in his 60s. He has
    been a MMRPG nut for a while now and has played just about everyone one
    of them. Our conversation went along the lines of "Everything is
    boring, nothing is fun anymore". Maybe we all just need to find
    something different to do for a while. :P

    I say that tounge in cheek, but it's worth considering.
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote:
    > In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
    > Maybe we need to take time out, step back, and take a good look at our
    > life; then maybe we'll see where (if anywhere) game playing fits into
    > it.

    No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
    not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
    think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.
    While you may, indeed, be ready to be put out in the pasture, there
    actually IS something wrong with the gaming industry. It's not just
    you.

    Knight37
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    littlemute wrote:

    > I'd replace your two wargame types with Paths to Glory and Game of
    > Thrones (Age of Mythology is a bad puerto rico clone).
    >

    Game of Thrones has some really nice touches, with the bidding for various
    abilities each turn, but I've heard it has serious balance issues. I've
    only played it once, so can't judge that for myself.

    >
    > I got the warcraft game for cheap but have never gotten in a play. How
    > is it?

    Reasonably good at simulating the options in a typical RTS game. Either
    tech up for a few strong units or build lots of production facilities for
    low-level swarming. It uses cards to represent special powers, though, and
    this causes luck to be a major facotr in the game. This is regarding the
    basic version, as I have'n't played with the expansion.
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    knight37 wrote:

    >patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote:
    >
    >
    >>In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
    >> Maybe we need to take time out, step back, and take a good look at our
    >>life; then maybe we'll see where (if anywhere) game playing fits into
    >>it.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
    >not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
    >think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.
    >While you may, indeed, be ready to be put out in the pasture, there
    >actually IS something wrong with the gaming industry. It's not just
    >you.
    >
    >

    There are a lot of old games that still have strong loyalty followings,
    and would in fact sell new versions with better graphics and
    improvements to gameplay (eg: there was a lot of discussion on Hasborg
    boards about how RRT3 would have sold better if it had just been RRT2
    with better graphics and multiplayer). They might not sell a million
    each, but 20,000 sales for $200,000 profit for 3 months work for 3
    people is a pretty good return. Trouble is, the old companies won't do
    the job, or won't turn loose the rights to someone who wants to, or
    cannot even be contacted about any of that. I have contacted several
    about letting me do a rehash, and never got any interest. In one case
    (Civilization) they actually did have a future in mind for the product
    line. In all others they just let it die, or killed it with their own
    rehash.

    Stupid idiots just can't see there's money to be made in making a few
    people happy. You'd expect the computer gaming field would be the
    greatest example of niche marketing in history, instead it goes the
    other way.

    --
    Godwin is a net-nazi
  46. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote:

    > I have a sneaking suspicion it's not the gaming industry--it's life.
    >
    > --Patrick
    >

    I think its more a combination. We get more and more picky as we get
    older, plus, we've played several types of games 'to death' and are just
    sick of certain things. On the other hand, I still think its possible
    to make a game that even old fogeys will enjoy.

    Also, w/any game, you get good enough at it after a while that you
    don't have to think about what you're gonna do anymore, your reactions
    become automatic. He's doin' X, Y beats X, so I'll do Y now. No fun,
    because you already knew Y beats X w/out having to bat an eye. No
    thrill of inventing the strategy - Y, but rather just a dry mechanical
    quick acknowldgement of that fact in your mind as you employ it.

    The first time you played that same game you had to think long and hard
    to decide to do Y when you saw your opponent do X. You hesisitantly
    decided to do Y, and had the great satisfaction of seeing your better
    strategy prevail. Now, however, you've seen Y beat X 9 times out of 10
    over countless episodes, probably several different games even, so now
    when you employ it, even if its in a brand new game you've never played
    before, it doesn't seem like a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants victory,
    but just the dry mechanical employment of a stale old formula to a
    situation that called for it - a situation you've seen countless times
    before. Thus, even seeing that the situation calls for it isn't even
    tricky or a source of fun, we see the same patterns in different games
    all too clearly, nothing at all is tricky. Even a new game, w/new
    graphics, a new theme, slightly different rules, might have much of the
    same underlying game play, and so ya just dont' get the excitement
    anymore, because you're not having to struggle to come up w/a brilliant
    strategy, you're just applying the old ones.

    You know a game is getting like this to you when you can start telling
    earlier and earlier in the game who it is that's going to win.

    Now some kid who's never even played a game in the genre before,
    however, might get all that excitement we used to, from the same game we
    now find tiresome. To him its all new. To us, its a new game, but
    we've seen it before. Before we've played the game, we see that kid
    ranting and raving about this wonderful game and we see that joy we once
    had so we get the game too, hoping to have it rekindled in us as well -
    only to discover the game isn't the greatest invention since sliced
    bread like the kid claimed. He didn't know, of course, because he never
    ate all the various breads we did, but we know now that we've tasted it,
    that its the same old recipe of some other bread we had already, just
    w/some sprinkles on top or fancy packaging.

    Now some people actually enjoy that dry mechanical kind of gameplay,
    anyone who's seriously into chess is someone I think of this way. All
    the millions of opening strategies they memorize, etc... You can come
    across an opponent who's spent his life memorizing opening moves,
    set-ups, etc... No matter how good you are on the fly, he'll probably
    kick your butt. Anything you think of may seem like a brilliant new
    idea to you that'll astound and confound him, but it is probably
    something he's already read about. He didn't invent a single strategy
    on his own, merely read about it, but he's great at seeing the situation
    on teh board then appropriately applying the formula of other people's
    strategies - of which he's memorized countless numbers worth - so he'll
    win. Lots of games get to this point, go look at some of the warcraft
    websites, w/entire faqs about 'strategy x' and how it beats 'strategy y'
    but not 'strategy z', etc.... To me, its not playing a game anymore at
    that point, but spreadsheat number crunching rote memorization and
    application of repetative rock paper scissors gaming.

    Once you know it, no matter how complex it was or how long it took to
    get to that point, its reduced to just rock paper scissors really. And
    rock paper scissors ain't fun.

    I enjoy the invention of the strategy on the fly, then the thrill of
    victory or pang of defeat (and subsequent modification of said
    strategy). I do *not* enjoy the dry employment of some strategy I've
    already used countless times before and whose outcome, in my mind, is
    all but pre-determined. When I feel like i know all the strategies to
    be used in a game, when there's nothing new or suprising I can do
    against my opponent, I get bored of it and want to move on.

    This is for strategy games mind you, in other types of games, from
    MMO's to rpg's, etc...,I can enjoy repeitition. I'm enjoying those games
    as action games, or because of the story, or because I'm playin'
    w/friends, and only sometimes because of the strategy.

    So I think we *can* still have that thrill again, and strategy games
    *can* be made for us that we enjoy as much as the first we played, its
    just much more difficult, because for us to get that into it again it
    really has to be something *new*. But new is risky when you are putting
    X dollars of development on the line that you need to recoup (and
    hopefully more) - so you don't see it that often. You see tired old
    game X, w/one new feature. One new feature out of hundreds of features.
    99% of the game is the same ole same ole though - not enough for us.

    And even when something genuinely new comes out, we get bored of it
    faster than others. We still see some old patterns in all the newness,
    and we have greater experience w/finding patterns in the first place -
    we get to that point where we 'know' the game, and it stops suprising us
    anymore, all the more quickly.

    Eventually something very new and different will pop up though, and if
    we're lucky, we'll know about it, and try it out, and it'll be all good.
    'Till we've played it to death too that is. hehe

    And look on the bright side, soon enough we'll go senile and start
    forgetting what we already know, and then even games we've already
    played will seem wonderfully new to us again! Oh happy days! Ignorance
    is bliss. =>

    Leo
  47. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
    1126193593.981404.49560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
    > not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
    > think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.

    If you want to get distributed *at all* you need to aim for top 10 hit.
    Or you need to go to niche market and internet distribution only. There is
    not much room in between.
  48. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote in
    news:1126189492.849869.74000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

    > In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
    <snip>
    You're making a lot of good points, but I think it's not purely that the
    current crop of games also contribute. I've just tried The Ur-Quan Masters
    and it is very enjoyable (even though I've played Star Control II).
    Surprisingly, I didn't find outdated graphics to be a problem at all. Maybe
    we've just played all mediocre games we need (those who's never played
    anything similar may be enjoying them more). Dom2 also was just like in a
    good ol' times. So my strategy is to get only the best games and avoid all
    other :)

    Alex.
  49. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

    "Michel de Becdelièvre" <m_debec@msn.com> once tried to test me with:

    >
    > "knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
    > 1126193593.981404.49560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    >>
    >> No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
    >> not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
    >> think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.
    >
    > If you want to get distributed *at all* you need to aim for top 10
    > hit.
    > Or you need to go to niche market and internet distribution only.
    > There is not much room in between.

    That's the problem with the industry though. Every game is NOT going to be
    a Top 10 Hit. In fact, only 10 games out of hundreds can in any given year.
    So by sacrificing anything that would appeal to a niche and trying to
    "mainstream" the game, you alienate the people who WOULD have liked your
    game by shooting for a segment of gamers that doesn't even really exist.

    Anyway, I agree, internet distribution is the key, and I hope to see much
    more of it in the future, and not just from indie developers, I'd like to
    see the big-name game companies use internet distribution to sell their
    "niche" titles that they know won't sell well enough to sit on the shelf at
    Wal-Mart, but also know there's a market out there who's dying for just
    that game if only someone would make it.

    I don't expect EA-BORG to do this but maybe Atari or Ubi or a forward-
    thinking publisher. Atari did use the file sharing networks to distribute
    TOEE, I wonder if that made them any money?

    --

    Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

    Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
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