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Where is my next game? (death of gameplay)

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Anonymous
September 4, 2005 5:36:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Where is my next game?

I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.

M.U.L.E.
The Sword of Fargol
Zak McCraken
Day of the Tentacle
Wasteland
SimCity
Auto Duel
Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
Xcom
Command and Conquer
Diablo 1 & 2
Warcraft 1 & 2
Warlords 2
Jagged Alliance 2
Fallout 1 & 2
Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
Civ 1, 2 and 3
Alpha Centari
Tropico
The Sims

I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.

But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
(not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
games so hard to come by these days?

I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality.
There doesn't seem to be anything playable coming down the pipe. I would
again drop money on things like Diablo 3, Baulders Gate 3, Fallout 3,
Xcom 4 (a real one), or Jagged Alliance 3. However, I highly doubt that
any of these will become reality, and even if they did, they would be so
skewed to the mass FPS market that they would be unplayable. (Warcraft 3
is the perfect example of how to destroy something wonderful, and
Fallout 3 / Diablo 3 will be the next great examples of "Disappointing
On Appearance" games)

Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must everything
be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason to play?

If a game is 3d just for the sake of being 3d, why am I spending money
on it? I am not interested in a rich subversive world, if it isn't fun
to play. I'll take 2D anytime, if the game is fun.

I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.esc...

More about : game death gameplay

Anonymous
September 4, 2005 8:28:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in message
news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
>
>
> But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce these
> days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow full of
> money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game (not Fallout
> 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't remember the
> last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling games so hard
> to come by these days?
>

I too have FPS motion sickness, but from my experience it is very much
reduced when playing third-person games (looking at your character).
Although I can only speak for myself, games like Neverwinter Nights or WoW
do not cause me problems, while things like Halflife/Doom/ect.. require that
I lie down every 30 minutes to recover. Maybe you have the same problem.
Also, don't play with the lights down -- if you can still see a motionless
world in your peripheral vision, your brain might not get confused. Much
preferable to a barf bag.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 12:16:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> once tried to test me with:

> Where is my next game?
> Diablo 1 & 2

If you liked Diablo 2 you might enjoy Dungeon Siege 2. I recommend getting
the demo at least.

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 12:35:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774
@weber.videotron.net:

> I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
> me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions.

Nice list.
tried Dominions 2?
Space Empires IV?

Presently Im also slumping. Dominions 3 is in beta. Space Empires V is in
beta. A great music game Im presently helping alpha test. Im back to
playing free online worlds just for some variety

Gandalf Parker
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 1:19:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Take some dramamine!!

"Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in message
news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
>
> Where is my next game?
>
> I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
> Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
> sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
> Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
>
> M.U.L.E.
> The Sword of Fargol
> Zak McCraken
> Day of the Tentacle
> Wasteland
> SimCity
> Auto Duel
> Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
> Xcom
> Command and Conquer
> Diablo 1 & 2
> Warcraft 1 & 2
> Warlords 2
> Jagged Alliance 2
> Fallout 1 & 2
> Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
> Civ 1, 2 and 3
> Alpha Centari
> Tropico
> The Sims
>
> I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
>
> But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
> these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
> full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
> (not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
> remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
> games so hard to come by these days?
>
> I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
> industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality.
> There doesn't seem to be anything playable coming down the pipe. I would
> again drop money on things like Diablo 3, Baulders Gate 3, Fallout 3,
> Xcom 4 (a real one), or Jagged Alliance 3. However, I highly doubt that
> any of these will become reality, and even if they did, they would be so
> skewed to the mass FPS market that they would be unplayable. (Warcraft 3
> is the perfect example of how to destroy something wonderful, and
> Fallout 3 / Diablo 3 will be the next great examples of "Disappointing
> On Appearance" games)
>
> Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must everything
> be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason to play?
>
> If a game is 3d just for the sake of being 3d, why am I spending money
> on it? I am not interested in a rich subversive world, if it isn't fun
> to play. I'll take 2D anytime, if the game is fun.
>
> I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
> me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)
>
>
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.esc...
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 1:26:51 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

Dale M <NaDa noway.ca> wrote:

> Where is my next game? I can't play (or watch anyone else play)
> first person shooters (FPS). Not because they are brainless,

They are not brainless. I have found pickup games of Tribes 2 to
be chock full of strategy. All you have to do is join a pickup
game with two dozen players or more, find a nice spot/method to
kill the enemy players, and test your strategies.

> but because I have doom induced motion sickness (D.I.M.S. yes
> it exists).

I have that problem, but it wasn't caused by Doom.

....
> Why are fun and compelling games so hard to come by these days?

A short attention span?

> Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must
> everything be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason
> to play?

Isn't that what you're asking for? A game that's like a new movie,
something you can be entertained with for a while and then move on
to something else? Any solid real-time strategy or first-person
shooter has loads of replay value, in my opinion. I see no
reason to stop playing them. But maybe that's partly because I do
multiplayer games, so my games remain very lively.

Age of Empires III will be released maybe in October. If it is a
standard real-time strategy RTS game, then I probably will buy it.



>
>
>
>
>
> Path: newssvr22.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm02.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!atl-c04.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
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>
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 3:02:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.

These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
depressing.

olaf
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 5:36:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M wrote:
> Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days?

That's kinda subjective, dontcha think? I find The Sims (how can people
possibly enjoy that?) Tropico and a couple of other games you mentioned to
be a total bore myself.

Having said that, I agree that TB games (strategy and RPG alike) are
becoming increasingly rare much to my despair also - so much that I've gone
back to playing japanese PS1 console RPG's on a computer (using the PSXEven
emulator) and I'm having a blast with them. All over again, since I've
played most games thru the end already back in the day.

They can also be had very cheap nowadays but it's an acquired taste if you
havent played those kind of games before (Vagrant Story is one of my
favorites despite the fact that it is not turn based. FF7, 8 and 9 in
particular are also great. But there are *tons* out there for that system).

One can only play BG2, PS:T and Fallout a few dozen times before things
start getting somewhat predictable.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 7:27:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in
news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net:

> Where is my next game?
>
> I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
> Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
> sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
> Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
<snip>
>
> But where is my next game?
Dominions 2 and Galactic Civilizatons are not on your list, but they would
probably suit your taste.

Alex.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 9:29:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

John Doe <jdoe@usenet.love.invalid> wrote in
news:Xns96C7A754171EEwisdomfolly@207.115.63.158:

> Dale M <NaDa noway.ca> wrote:
>
>> Where is my next game? I can't play (or watch anyone else play)
>> first person shooters (FPS). Not because they are brainless,
>
> They are not brainless. I have found pickup games of Tribes 2 to
> be chock full of strategy. All you have to do is join a pickup
> game with two dozen players or more, find a nice spot/method to
> kill the enemy players, and test your strategies.

I agree with that, but unfortunately there's too much clicking for one unit
of strategy in those games. And then it's hard to be sure if the strategy
works well or not. While being somewhat successful against one players it
may crumble against players with somewhat faster reflexes (and not
necessarily better strategies). So if you don't like those games' non-
strategic components, it's just too much wasted time on unnecessary trials.
If there would be better support for automation, I could submit my bot to
some tourney in the evening and have results of hundreds or thousands of
matches in the morning, so that I could really see how well my strategy
works. But of course, that's just a blue dream... :( 

Alex.
September 5, 2005 11:15:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Thus spake Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca>, Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Anno
Domini:

>
>Where is my next game?
>
>I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
>Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
>sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
>Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
>
>M.U.L.E.
>The Sword of Fargol
>Zak McCraken
>Day of the Tentacle
>Wasteland
>SimCity
>Auto Duel
>Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
>Xcom
>Command and Conquer
>Diablo 1 & 2
>Warcraft 1 & 2
>Warlords 2
>Jagged Alliance 2
>Fallout 1 & 2
>Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
>Civ 1, 2 and 3
>Alpha Centari
>Tropico
>The Sims
>
>I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
>
>But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
>these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
>full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
>(not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
>remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
>games so hard to come by these days?

If you liked Fallout you might be interested in Metalheart: Replicants
Rampage:

http://www.metalheart.ru/english/info.html

--
A killfile is a friend for life.

Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 12:00:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Dale M wrote:

> Where is my next game?

Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic might appeal to you, and possibly Kohan 2:
King of Wars (it's a RTS, but slow and a little TBS-like). In a few weeks,
Civilization 4 will be out also. Since Galactic Civilization wasn't on your
list, you night also want to give it a whirl (a 2003 release), especially
with the sequel coming out in a few months.

M.
September 5, 2005 12:21:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-09-04, Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
> Thus spake Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca>, Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Anno
> Domini:
>
>>
>>Where is my next game?

If you liked XCom, I've heard that Rebelstar Tactical Command
will be similar.



--
Toby.
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject
field to circumvent my email filters.
Ignore any mail delivery error.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 1:54:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M wrote:
>
> Where is my next game?
>
> I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
> me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)
>
> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.esc...
>


Thanks to everyone for the game suggestions. I have a list here of 9 or
so games to explore. I have never had such a positive response to a post
before, thanks again.

By the way, I first discovered I had DIMS while playing Wolfenstien back
in the 486 days. For three consecutive days I found myself wondering
(while lying in bed with the room spinning around me) if I had caught
the "flu"? Before I clued in that the damn game was making me sick. :) 
Every once in a while I try a newer FPS just to see if they have somehow
fixed whatever was causing my illness, but they have yet to perfect the
3D tunnel. Oh well, it has probably saved me a lot of money on games.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 2:41:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96C79B5145B28knight37m@130.133.1.4...
> Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> once tried to test me with:
>
>> Where is my next game?
>> Diablo 1 & 2
>
> If you liked Diablo 2 you might enjoy Dungeon Siege 2. I recommend getting
> the demo at least.

Unfortunately my housemate is exactly like Dale in terms of Motion Sickness.
And DS 2 makes him want to hurl after 30 minutes of play.

I don't get motion sickness from well done 3d FPS's, but DS2 give me a
tickle in the guts after a while as well. In other words Dale good luck. :( 

Ceo-
September 5, 2005 3:02:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

BuckFush wrote:

> Dale M wrote:
> > Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days?
>
> That's kinda subjective, dontcha think? I find The Sims (how can people
> possibly enjoy that?) Tropico and a couple of other games you mentioned to
> be a total bore myself.
>

I tried the 'Busting out' version of the Sims. I found it incredibly tedious and
dull. I don't want to simulate the things I play games to forget about in real
life. It's staggering to me how popular the Sims is.

>
> Having said that, I agree that TB games (strategy and RPG alike) are
> becoming increasingly rare much to my despair also - so much that I've gone
> back to playing japanese PS1 console RPG's on a computer

Amen. I still go back from time to time to replay my favourite TB RPGs on my old
PSX.

> (using the PSXEven
> emulator) and I'm having a blast with them. All over again, since I've
> played most games thru the end already back in the day.
>
> They can also be had very cheap nowadays but it's an acquired taste if you
> havent played those kind of games before (Vagrant Story is one of my
> favorites despite the fact that it is not turn based.

Fantastic game. My choice for best video game of all time. Gameplay, graphics,
and style all in one. Brilliant.

I can't believe the great ideas in VS haven't been incorporated into later
games. The title system alone would make most video games much better,
particularly in the replay value department. The Madden football games have
something similar, to their credit.

> FF7, 8 and 9 in
> particular are also great. But there are *tons* out there for that system).
>

I assume you have played FF Tactics (NOT the GBA sequel). If not, find it and
play it. Best tactical combat RPG I've ever played. Lots of replay value in this
one, too, since your party is customizable and there are so many different
classes and skills to try.
September 5, 2005 3:06:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Ceowulf wrote:

> "Knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C79B5145B28knight37m@130.133.1.4...
> > Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> once tried to test me with:
> >
> >> Where is my next game?
> >> Diablo 1 & 2
> >
> > If you liked Diablo 2 you might enjoy Dungeon Siege 2. I recommend getting
> > the demo at least.
>
> Unfortunately my housemate is exactly like Dale in terms of Motion Sickness.
> And DS 2 makes him want to hurl after 30 minutes of play.
>

Medal of Honor for the PSX did that to me. I don't play many first-person
perspective games, due to my dislike of the required tunnel vision. I like to be
able to see my surroundings, especially in combat. Games that are really dark
are a turn-off for me, too.

>
> I don't get motion sickness from well done 3d FPS's, but DS2 give me a
> tickle in the guts after a while as well. In other words Dale good luck. :( 
>
> Ceo-

I played Virtua Cop when I got a Dreamcast bundle, but that one did weird things
to my eyes after a few minutes of play. First time I played it I thought I might
be having a stroke.
September 5, 2005 3:09:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Grackle wrote:

> "Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote in message
> news:hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
> >
> >
> > But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce these
> > days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow full of
> > money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game (not Fallout
> > 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't remember the
> > last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling games so hard
> > to come by these days?
> >
>
> I too have FPS motion sickness, but from my experience it is very much
> reduced when playing third-person games (looking at your character).

Yes. Third person games don't bother me.

>
> Although I can only speak for myself, games like Neverwinter Nights or WoW
> do not cause me problems, while things like Halflife/Doom/ect.. require that
> I lie down every 30 minutes to recover. Maybe you have the same problem.
> Also, don't play with the lights down -- if you can still see a motionless
> world in your peripheral vision, your brain might not get confused. Much
> preferable to a barf bag.

Sitting farther back from the screen (for the same reason as the lights
suggestion) helps.
September 5, 2005 3:10:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

dawg wrote:

> Take some dramamine!!
>

Personally, if I have to put drugs in my body just to play a game, I'll pass on the
game entirely. Who knows what long-term effects the drugs are going to have?
September 5, 2005 3:13:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Olaf wrote:

> My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
> Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
>
> These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
> depressing.
>
> olaf

Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming from
Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 3:33:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Dale M" <NaDa@noway.ca> a écrit dans le message de news:
hgGSe.10764$Wa6.51774@weber.videotron.net...
> SimCity
> Civ 1, 2 and 3

> I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
> me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)

Since these 4 are "thinking" games, you might want to try computer wargames,
such as those from www.battlefront.com or from http://www.matrixgames.com/ .

Both companies usually have downloadable demos, so you can check if this is
your style of play.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 4:08:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>
>Where is my next game?
>
>I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
>Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
>sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).

Just a thought, but you may want to check your refresh rate.

This is one of the annoying things about windows XP, that without a 3rd
party app like refreshlock, it will happily let any game/app change the
refresh rate.

I discovered this playing City of Heroes, which for some unknown reason
wants to set the refresh rate to 60Hz.
Under win98se, it wasn't allowed to so there was no problem, under XP it
could, and so I got nauseated pretty quickly until I found out what was
going on.
Even with it set to a fixed rate in XP, and the nVidia drivers set to
use nothing under 75Hz, XP was happy to let CoH change it to 60Hz

This may not have anything to do with your problem, but it's worth a
look in case it does (or contributes.)


Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
September 5, 2005 6:09:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

RogerM wrote:
> Olaf wrote:
>
>
>>My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
>>Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
>>
>>These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
>>depressing.
>>
>>olaf
>
>
> Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming from
> Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
> heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
> bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
>
>
>
Got some examples? Been yearnin' for a good boardgame, can't find any
place that sells old AH type bookcase games anymore. I miss them!
Leo
September 5, 2005 7:18:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Leo wrote:

> RogerM wrote:
> > Olaf wrote:
> >
> >
> >>My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either TB
> >>Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
> >>
> >>These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
> >>depressing.
> >>
> >>olaf
> >
> >
> > Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming from
> > Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
> > heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
> > bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
> >
> >
> >
> Got some examples? Been yearnin' for a good boardgame, can't find any
> place that sells old AH type bookcase games anymore. I miss them!
> Leo

Wargame type:
Age of Mythology
Warcraft

Miniatures type:
Heroclix (collectible)
Heroscape (non-collectible, but expandable)

Euro-type:
Puerto Rico (brilliant design)
Carcassone (many expansions and variants)
Setlers of Catan (simplified empire-building)
Ticket To Ride (simple but fun train game)

These are some of my favourites. I strongly reccomend checking out this site:

www.boardgamegeek.com

Anyone into boardgames should know this site.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 8:29:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 11:13:56 GMT, RogerM
<rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>There is a crop of fine games coming from
>Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well. Not
>heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but not
>bad.

If what you _want_ is heavy wargames, you can get those too. Decision
Games is about to come out with a new edition of War in the Pacific
that has 9000 counters and 12 maps.

On the other end of things, Multi Man Publishing recently released
Fire in the Skies, a 1-map game of the Pacific theater that takes only
a couple hours to play.

The best place to learn about board wargames is Consimworld,
www.consimworld.com .

Dav Vandenbroucke
davanden at cox dot net
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 8:41:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

QQalextiQQ@videotron.few.useless.chars.ca (alexti) wrote:
> John Doe <jdoe@usenet.love.invalid> wrote in

>> [FPS] are not brainless. I have found pickup games of Tribes 2
>> to be chock full of strategy. All you have to do is join a
>> pickup game with two dozen players or more, find a nice
>> spot/method to kill the enemy players, and test your
>> strategies.

> I agree with that, but unfortunately there's too much clicking
> for one unit of strategy in those games.

You mean too fast. You can devise strategies which take only a few
clicks, that is what I was saying.

> And then it's hard to be sure if the strategy works well or not.

It works well if they die.

> While being somewhat successful against one players it
> may crumble against players with somewhat faster reflexes (and
> not necessarily better strategies).

I find that the strategy is very deep and the enemy has little
information about what you're preparing to do (or maybe even what
you're doing). Yes, being able to execute a few quick keystrokes
and mouse clicks probably is necessary. But that is little compared
to a typical real-time strategy game (without
automation).

But I'm using the ultimate automation in RTS, so
I'm very happy with it.

> So if you don't like those games' non-strategic components,

In most pickup games, your partners really don't care what you are
doing. You are free to do whatever you want. It's not like one on
one. You don't necessarily have to care whether your strategy is
helping your side win, you can just judge your efficiency. Players
come and go during the course of the game. Everyone is free to do
whatever they want to do, and you will find most of your partners
are gung ho for frantic offensives. That leaves plenty of room for
defensive strategies, and there are many possibilities since you are
not under pressure.

If I didn't have RTS down to a science (automation wise), I probably
would be playing FPS. Then again, I have trouble with dizziness in
some FPS games. So sad, because the true 3-D world of Tribes 2 is
just plain awesome. Have you ever jumped off of a tall structure and
glided down to earth for a soft landing? It's one of those 'do it
again' things.

Have fun anyway.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 11:39:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:36:32 -0400, Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote:

>
>Where is my next game?

There's a great strategy 6 pack game bundle out right now from
Paradox. Games included are:
1. Hearts of Iron
2. Europa Universalis 2
3. Europa Universalis 2 - Asia Chapters
4. Victoria
5. Two Thrones
6. Crown of the North

Lots of decent gaming in there and it only cost me $19.99 CAD at EB.
It's worth the price just for HOI and EU2 alone.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 1:00:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> wrote:
>Where is my next game?
>
>I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
>Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
>sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
>Here are some examples of games that I loved to play.
>
>M.U.L.E.
>The Sword of Fargol
>Zak McCraken
>Day of the Tentacle
>Wasteland
>SimCity
>Auto Duel
>Phantasie (1, 2, & 3)
>Xcom
>Command and Conquer
>Diablo 1 & 2
>Warcraft 1 & 2
>Warlords 2
>Jagged Alliance 2
>Fallout 1 & 2
>Baulder's Gate, and all the other Bioware creations including Planescape
>Civ 1, 2 and 3
>Alpha Centari
>Tropico
>The Sims
>
>I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
>
>But where is my next game? It seems that all the market will produce
>these days is FPS, or MMO-xx games. I would gladly drop a wheel barrow
>full of money on a n XCOM port to Windows XP, or another Fallout game
>(not Fallout 3, as it is suppose to be a FPS) Even with Pirates, I can't
>remember the last game I bought before that? Why are fun and compelling
>games so hard to come by these days?
>
>I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
>industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality.
>There doesn't seem to be anything playable coming down the pipe. I would
>again drop money on things like Diablo 3, Baulders Gate 3, Fallout 3,
>Xcom 4 (a real one), or Jagged Alliance 3. However, I highly doubt that
>any of these will become reality, and even if they did, they would be so
>skewed to the mass FPS market that they would be unplayable. (Warcraft 3
>is the perfect example of how to destroy something wonderful, and
>Fallout 3 / Diablo 3 will be the next great examples of "Disappointing
>On Appearance" games)
>
>Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days? Must everything
>be a massive 3D pixel fest with no compelling reason to play?
>
>If a game is 3d just for the sake of being 3d, why am I spending money
>on it? I am not interested in a rich subversive world, if it isn't fun
>to play. I'll take 2D anytime, if the game is fun.
>
>I am going to stop typing now that I feel better. If someone can provide
>me with any glimmer of hope... thanks for the suggestions. (Nothing FPS)
>
>http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/3http://www.esc...

You seem to like strategy and management games. Have you tried the demos
available at http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ ?
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 7:31:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 12:08:11 -0700, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
wrote:


>This is one of the annoying things about windows XP, that without a 3rd
>party app like refreshlock, it will happily let any game/app change the
>refresh rate.

Not on ATI cards. You just need to go to the monitor settings tab and
uncheck use DDC and then set it to use the same refresh rate as your
desktop. All my games play at 100hz without a 3rd party app, the same
as my desktop is set to.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 2:42:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"RogerM" <rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:431C26CA.14E6E171@ns.sympatico.ca...
> Ceowulf wrote:

>> Unfortunately my housemate is exactly like Dale in terms of Motion
>> Sickness.
>> And DS 2 makes him want to hurl after 30 minutes of play.
>>
>
> Medal of Honor for the PSX did that to me. I don't play many first-person
> perspective games, due to my dislike of the required tunnel vision. I like
> to be
> able to see my surroundings, especially in combat. Games that are really
> dark
> are a turn-off for me, too.

I am recently attempting to give Morrowind on the Xbox a go, and I can't do
it. The TV's interpretation of 3d graphics is a killer. Whereas a well made
3d first person perspective game on the computer and my good LCD doesn't
worry me in the slightest. I'm not sure why that is but I guess it says
something about quality?

Ceo-
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 2:46:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
news:ue5ph1l3cp24mr6p21i4ff1u9qrbhf0b19@4ax.com...
> Dale M <NaDa@noway.ca> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
> spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>>
>>Where is my next game?
>>
>>I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
>>Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
>>sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
>
> Just a thought, but you may want to check your refresh rate.
>
> This is one of the annoying things about windows XP, that without a 3rd
> party app like refreshlock, it will happily let any game/app change the
> refresh rate.

Or get a _good_ high quality LCD. There goes the refresh rate problem.

Ceo-
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 4:48:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Olaf wrote:
> Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
> kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
> my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
> computer.

Sounds like you need to upgrade to Friends 2.0
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 11:44:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"RogerM" <rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:431C2876.FF3786A0@ns.sympatico.ca...
> Olaf wrote:
>
>> My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either
>> TB
>> Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
>>
>> These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
>> depressing.
>>
>> olaf
>
> Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming
> from
> Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well.
> Not
> heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but
> not
> bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
computer.

olaf
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 4:21:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <AkmTe.228706$0f.167929@tornado.texas.rr.com>, "Olaf" <olaf73GETRIDOFTHIS@swbellDOT.net> wrote:
>"RogerM" <rodger.mckay@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:431C2876.FF3786A0@ns.sympatico.ca...
>> Olaf wrote:
>>
>>> My favorite kinds of computer games have always been turn based. Either
>>> TB
>>> Strat games or CRPGs with TB combat.
>>>
>>> These two genres may as well be dead, especially the latter. Its
>>> depressing.
>>>
>>> olaf
>>
>> Time to get back into board games. There is a crop of fine games coming
>> from
>> Europe now, and some American companies putting out decent stuff, as well.
>> Not
>> heavy wargames like the old AH/SPI days in the '70s and early '80s, but
>> not
>> bad. I thought computer gaming had killed boardgames, but they are back.
>Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
>kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
>my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
>computer.

A lot of today's boardgames have a little more meat in them than the
stuff from the 1930s (Monopoly, Scrabble). Try again with some modern
games.

Alan
September 7, 2005 5:31:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Olaf wrote:

> Yeah boardgames would be great except that none of my friends enjoy that
> kind of thing. Its one of the reasons I got into computer games as a kid,
> my friends were not into boardgames or PnP RPGs so I got my fix solo, with a
> computer.
>
> olaf

Yup. It was the same for me. I found friends to game with at a local game store
several years ago. It is the only regular opportunity for me to game with
others.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 8:19:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

RogerM wrote:
> BuckFush wrote:
>> They can also be had very cheap nowadays but it's an acquired taste
>> if you havent played those kind of games before (Vagrant Story is
>> one of my favorites despite the fact that it is not turn based.
>
> Fantastic game. My choice for best video game of all time. Gameplay,
> graphics, and style all in one. Brilliant.

Absolutely, it's that rare case where the sum of the individual (and
brilliant) parts make for an even better whole. Unmatched even today,
Yasumi Matsuno is a bloody genius. The game's only drawback is that it
eventually ends.

> I assume you have played FF Tactics (NOT the GBA sequel). If not,
> find it and play it. Best tactical combat RPG I've ever played. Lots
> of replay value in this one, too, since your party is customizable
> and there are so many different classes and skills to try.

Yup, also loved FFT which was made by the same team who later worked on VS
and was largely working on FF12 when Matsuno's health problems forced him to
leave a couple of weeks ago.

Didn't much care for the GBA version though, there are better tactical games
on that platform like Advance Wars and Fire Emblem.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 4:01:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Why are we constantly getting posts like this? What is it once a week
now? There is tons of great stuff coming out from ALL over the globe
that are not MMO's, FPS's or sports games. I feel that I must insult
you somehow for dissing on Warcraft 3 but the hope inside you is
already dead, so there just no point. I liked Super Street Fighter 2
Turbo Perfect. I liked warcraft 2. Mash them together and you get
Warcraft 3.

Fallout 3 is being done by Bethesda. I have high hopes. I found the
combat in the og fallout's to be simply comical. Blasting away at
people with high powered projectile weapons at point blank range really
does well for the suspension of disbelief.

The closest to a new Xcom is coming out for the Game Boy Advance by the
Laser Squad Nemesis peoples.

Jagged Alliance, no news is good news on that one as unless the
original team is involved en masse, the license will probably go to
some inferior developers with more money and time than sense (like
Master of Orion 3).

My suggestion to you is Port Royale 2.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 4:08:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I'd replace your two wargame types with Paths to Glory and Game of
Thrones (Age of Mythology is a bad puerto rico clone).

I got the warcraft game for cheap but have never gotten in a play. How
is it?
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 9:41:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:21:01 GMT, amonroejj@yahoo.com (R. Alan Monroe)
wrote:

>A lot of today's boardgames have a little more meat in them than the
>stuff from the 1930s (Monopoly, Scrabble).

I never had much use for Monopoly, but Scrabble is an elegant game.
It's best played with people who are trying to find the most
interesting words, rather than the ones who have memorized every three
letter word with a z or x in it.

Dav Vandenbroucke
davanden at cox dot net
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:22:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 7 Sep 2005 12:01:22 -0700, "littlemute" <littlemute@woodenmen.org>
wrote:

>Why are we constantly getting posts like this? What is it once a week
>now? There is tons of great stuff coming out from ALL over the globe
>that are not MMO's, FPS's or sports games.

Given the mass of unaldurated garbage that is considered "top-notch", you
might as well expect this to be a FAQ.

>Jagged Alliance, no news is good news on that one as unless the
>original team is involved en masse, the license will probably go to
>some inferior developers with more money and time than sense (like
>Master of Orion 3).

JA is changing to a real-time system, which will cause previous tactics to
break up entirely. There's also the fact that the game is switching from
free-form open terrain to mission based. Both of these are against the
purpose of JA - tactical combat.

While JA might be successful, I strongly doubt it - squad based tactics do
not work as well in real-time, especially when given the current interface
technology.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 9:47:45 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I don't know, the pause and give orders real-time in XCom Apocalypse,
(or even Total Annilation, although that is not squad based) worked OK.
(This assumes that P&GO can be done in this JA version of cause)
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 11:24:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Dale M wrote:
> Where is my next game?
>
> I can't play (or watch anyone else play) first person shooters (FPS).
> Not because they are brainless, but because I have doom induced motion
> sickness (D.I.M.S. yes it exists).
> Here are some examples of games that I loved to play. . . .
>
> I am currently playing Sid Meiers Pirates which I find quite fun.
>
> But where is my next game? . . . Why are fun and compelling
> games so hard to come by these days?
>
> I read Greg Costikyan's article (noted below ) "death to the games
> industry" and I find Greg's views, seem to reflect my current reality. . . .
>
> Is a fun compelling game too much to ask for these days?

I finally decided to take a look at this thread, since it's so much
like the one I started a little while ago ("Still questing after the
elusive perfect game").

I've read some of Costikyan's articles too--and at times they seem to
reflect my view of things. But Costikyan, like me, is an old-fogie
wargamer (though unlike me, he's a wargame designer). And sometimes I
wonder if the problem is just aging. The sad fact is, kids have more
fun. When you're a child, life is full of magic and wonder. Some of
us grow up wanting to hold on to that magic and wonder--and for a while
we manage to mix the joy of childhood with the seriousness of
adulthood. But how long can it go on?

If you're young, Dale, maybe you're addicted and should consider
broadening your horizons beyond game playing. But since you listed
M.U.L.E. as one of your favorite games (and I'm guessing it's the
original and not the recently rereleased version), maybe you're closer
to my age--in which case you may be in the same boat as me.

In that case, I can't offer much help, since I'm having the same
problem myself. But today I'm wondering if the answer, for me, may be
the same as above: maybe I'm just too old for games. The old classic
games seem dull to me, because I've been there and done that; the new
games are aimed at people who are the same age I was back in my heyday
of wargaming, so I can't get into those either.

In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
Maybe we need to take time out, step back, and take a good look at our
life; then maybe we'll see where (if anywhere) game playing fits into
it.

Today I'm toying with the notion of getting back into old-fashioned
games like chess and bridge. I'm still a novice at chess, and I never
did any more than teach myself beginning bridge on the computer. From
time to time I tell myself I'd like to become a decent player of those
two games--and I like the fact that there's so much written about them.
And yet--I'm just not that sharp-thinking a person; so it always turns
out they're not my kind of games.

I like something that engages my imagination more--with an AI that
won't beat the pants off me every time. Something I can while away a
couple hours with in the evening, with my feet kicked up, a cup of tea
to drink, and some favorite music playing. Something that makes a nice
respite from work and household chores. Something that provides some
mental exercise (because I guess that's the only real value of solo
game playing) without making me work too hard; and something that's
also entertaining.

One recurrent problem I run into is that entertainment always wears
off. The entertainment aspect of any game is like the flavor in a
stick of gum: there's always plenty of chewing left to do after the
flavor is gone--and then you have to decide how much you wanted the
chewing and how much you just wanted the flavor. Me, I'm a "flavor"
guy--so I've always preferred candy to gum. Yet, I know there's
nothing good about candy except that it temporarily satisfies my
unnatural sweet tooth. I'd be better off showing some discipline and
sticking to more nutritious foods.

The same could be true of games. Instead of just lazily feeding my
entertainment addiction, I might do well to look for something of
deeper value in games: e.g., mental exercise or social interaction.
There are *lots* of games around that provide excellent mental exercise
(chess alone could provide a lifetime of it). There are lots more that
make for stimulating social interaction (the "German" board games, for
example--e.g., Carcassonne or Settlers of Catan).

When I was sixteen, I took wargaming very seriously; I thought I was
learning all about military art/history/science and would greatly
benefit from it in my life. But at the same time, I was just an
overgrown kid playing army. And now I'm a much older kid, still
playing army--and wondering why it's not as satisfying anymore.

I have a sneaking suspicion it's not the gaming industry--it's life.

--Patrick
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 12:32:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>
> I finally decided to take a look at this thread, since it's so much
> like the one I started a little while ago ("Still questing after the
> elusive perfect game").
>
> I've read some of Costikyan's articles too--and at times they seem to
> reflect my view of things. But Costikyan, like me, is an old-fogie
> wargamer (though unlike me, he's a wargame designer). And sometimes I
> wonder if the problem is just aging. The sad fact is, kids have more
> fun. When you're a child, life is full of magic and wonder. Some of
> us grow up wanting to hold on to that magic and wonder--and for a while
> we manage to mix the joy of childhood with the seriousness of
> adulthood. But how long can it go on?
>

< lots of good stuff snipped >

Very well said! I have wondered this about myself on more than one
occasion. Been board gaming since the early 80s (AH games and what
not) and the computer gaming world was a natural progression for me.
But as time goes on it does seem like just about every "new" game feels
the same as some other game I have already played. I used to think
that the industry is running out of ideas, and it may be true, but your
post has made me think about this and take a look inward. I seem to
have these burnout symptoms...endlessly hopping around from game to
game, never being interested enough to finish (I can count on one hand
how many games I have actually completed over the past 10 years),
nothing on the horizon looks appealing.

I was talking with my father the other day, who is in his 60s. He has
been a MMRPG nut for a while now and has played just about everyone one
of them. Our conversation went along the lines of "Everything is
boring, nothing is fun anymore". Maybe we all just need to find
something different to do for a while. :p 

I say that tounge in cheek, but it's worth considering.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 12:33:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote:
> In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
> Maybe we need to take time out, step back, and take a good look at our
> life; then maybe we'll see where (if anywhere) game playing fits into
> it.

No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.
While you may, indeed, be ready to be put out in the pasture, there
actually IS something wrong with the gaming industry. It's not just
you.

Knight37
September 8, 2005 1:33:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

littlemute wrote:

> I'd replace your two wargame types with Paths to Glory and Game of
> Thrones (Age of Mythology is a bad puerto rico clone).
>

Game of Thrones has some really nice touches, with the bidding for various
abilities each turn, but I've heard it has serious balance issues. I've
only played it once, so can't judge that for myself.

>
> I got the warcraft game for cheap but have never gotten in a play. How
> is it?

Reasonably good at simulating the options in a typical RTS game. Either
tech up for a few strong units or build lots of production facilities for
low-level swarming. It uses cards to represent special powers, though, and
this causes luck to be a major facotr in the game. This is regarding the
basic version, as I have'n't played with the expansion.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:29:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

knight37 wrote:

>patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote:
>
>
>>In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
>> Maybe we need to take time out, step back, and take a good look at our
>>life; then maybe we'll see where (if anywhere) game playing fits into
>>it.
>>
>>
>
>No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
>not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
>think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.
>While you may, indeed, be ready to be put out in the pasture, there
>actually IS something wrong with the gaming industry. It's not just
>you.
>
>

There are a lot of old games that still have strong loyalty followings,
and would in fact sell new versions with better graphics and
improvements to gameplay (eg: there was a lot of discussion on Hasborg
boards about how RRT3 would have sold better if it had just been RRT2
with better graphics and multiplayer). They might not sell a million
each, but 20,000 sales for $200,000 profit for 3 months work for 3
people is a pretty good return. Trouble is, the old companies won't do
the job, or won't turn loose the rights to someone who wants to, or
cannot even be contacted about any of that. I have contacted several
about letting me do a rehash, and never got any interest. In one case
(Civilization) they actually did have a future in mind for the product
line. In all others they just let it die, or killed it with their own
rehash.

Stupid idiots just can't see there's money to be made in making a few
people happy. You'd expect the computer gaming field would be the
greatest example of niche marketing in history, instead it goes the
other way.

--
Godwin is a net-nazi
September 8, 2005 9:44:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote:

> I have a sneaking suspicion it's not the gaming industry--it's life.
>
> --Patrick
>

I think its more a combination. We get more and more picky as we get
older, plus, we've played several types of games 'to death' and are just
sick of certain things. On the other hand, I still think its possible
to make a game that even old fogeys will enjoy.

Also, w/any game, you get good enough at it after a while that you
don't have to think about what you're gonna do anymore, your reactions
become automatic. He's doin' X, Y beats X, so I'll do Y now. No fun,
because you already knew Y beats X w/out having to bat an eye. No
thrill of inventing the strategy - Y, but rather just a dry mechanical
quick acknowldgement of that fact in your mind as you employ it.

The first time you played that same game you had to think long and hard
to decide to do Y when you saw your opponent do X. You hesisitantly
decided to do Y, and had the great satisfaction of seeing your better
strategy prevail. Now, however, you've seen Y beat X 9 times out of 10
over countless episodes, probably several different games even, so now
when you employ it, even if its in a brand new game you've never played
before, it doesn't seem like a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants victory,
but just the dry mechanical employment of a stale old formula to a
situation that called for it - a situation you've seen countless times
before. Thus, even seeing that the situation calls for it isn't even
tricky or a source of fun, we see the same patterns in different games
all too clearly, nothing at all is tricky. Even a new game, w/new
graphics, a new theme, slightly different rules, might have much of the
same underlying game play, and so ya just dont' get the excitement
anymore, because you're not having to struggle to come up w/a brilliant
strategy, you're just applying the old ones.

You know a game is getting like this to you when you can start telling
earlier and earlier in the game who it is that's going to win.

Now some kid who's never even played a game in the genre before,
however, might get all that excitement we used to, from the same game we
now find tiresome. To him its all new. To us, its a new game, but
we've seen it before. Before we've played the game, we see that kid
ranting and raving about this wonderful game and we see that joy we once
had so we get the game too, hoping to have it rekindled in us as well -
only to discover the game isn't the greatest invention since sliced
bread like the kid claimed. He didn't know, of course, because he never
ate all the various breads we did, but we know now that we've tasted it,
that its the same old recipe of some other bread we had already, just
w/some sprinkles on top or fancy packaging.

Now some people actually enjoy that dry mechanical kind of gameplay,
anyone who's seriously into chess is someone I think of this way. All
the millions of opening strategies they memorize, etc... You can come
across an opponent who's spent his life memorizing opening moves,
set-ups, etc... No matter how good you are on the fly, he'll probably
kick your butt. Anything you think of may seem like a brilliant new
idea to you that'll astound and confound him, but it is probably
something he's already read about. He didn't invent a single strategy
on his own, merely read about it, but he's great at seeing the situation
on teh board then appropriately applying the formula of other people's
strategies - of which he's memorized countless numbers worth - so he'll
win. Lots of games get to this point, go look at some of the warcraft
websites, w/entire faqs about 'strategy x' and how it beats 'strategy y'
but not 'strategy z', etc.... To me, its not playing a game anymore at
that point, but spreadsheat number crunching rote memorization and
application of repetative rock paper scissors gaming.

Once you know it, no matter how complex it was or how long it took to
get to that point, its reduced to just rock paper scissors really. And
rock paper scissors ain't fun.

I enjoy the invention of the strategy on the fly, then the thrill of
victory or pang of defeat (and subsequent modification of said
strategy). I do *not* enjoy the dry employment of some strategy I've
already used countless times before and whose outcome, in my mind, is
all but pre-determined. When I feel like i know all the strategies to
be used in a game, when there's nothing new or suprising I can do
against my opponent, I get bored of it and want to move on.

This is for strategy games mind you, in other types of games, from
MMO's to rpg's, etc...,I can enjoy repeitition. I'm enjoying those games
as action games, or because of the story, or because I'm playin'
w/friends, and only sometimes because of the strategy.

So I think we *can* still have that thrill again, and strategy games
*can* be made for us that we enjoy as much as the first we played, its
just much more difficult, because for us to get that into it again it
really has to be something *new*. But new is risky when you are putting
X dollars of development on the line that you need to recoup (and
hopefully more) - so you don't see it that often. You see tired old
game X, w/one new feature. One new feature out of hundreds of features.
99% of the game is the same ole same ole though - not enough for us.

And even when something genuinely new comes out, we get bored of it
faster than others. We still see some old patterns in all the newness,
and we have greater experience w/finding patterns in the first place -
we get to that point where we 'know' the game, and it stops suprising us
anymore, all the more quickly.

Eventually something very new and different will pop up though, and if
we're lucky, we'll know about it, and try it out, and it'll be all good.
'Till we've played it to death too that is. hehe

And look on the bright side, soon enough we'll go senile and start
forgetting what we already know, and then even games we've already
played will seem wonderfully new to us again! Oh happy days! Ignorance
is bliss. =>

Leo
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 6:05:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1126193593.981404.49560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
> not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
> think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.

If you want to get distributed *at all* you need to aim for top 10 hit.
Or you need to go to niche market and internet distribution only. There is
not much room in between.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 6:55:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

patrickcarroll@mn.rr.com wrote in
news:1126189492.849869.74000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> In short, maybe it's not the game industry that's dying; maybe it's us.
<snip>
You're making a lot of good points, but I think it's not purely that the
current crop of games also contribute. I've just tried The Ur-Quan Masters
and it is very enjoyable (even though I've played Star Control II).
Surprisingly, I didn't find outdated graphics to be a problem at all. Maybe
we've just played all mediocre games we need (those who's never played
anything similar may be enjoying them more). Dom2 also was just like in a
good ol' times. So my strategy is to get only the best games and avoid all
other :) 

Alex.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:08:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Michel de Becdelièvre" <m_debec@msn.com> once tried to test me with:

>
> "knight37" <knight37m@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 1126193593.981404.49560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> No, games today are focusing too much on graphics and wow-factor and
>> not enough on gameplay. It's not the gamers. It's the publishers that
>> think every game needs to be a Top 10 Hit or it's not worth doing.
>
> If you want to get distributed *at all* you need to aim for top 10
> hit.
> Or you need to go to niche market and internet distribution only.
> There is not much room in between.

That's the problem with the industry though. Every game is NOT going to be
a Top 10 Hit. In fact, only 10 games out of hundreds can in any given year.
So by sacrificing anything that would appeal to a niche and trying to
"mainstream" the game, you alienate the people who WOULD have liked your
game by shooting for a segment of gamers that doesn't even really exist.

Anyway, I agree, internet distribution is the key, and I hope to see much
more of it in the future, and not just from indie developers, I'd like to
see the big-name game companies use internet distribution to sell their
"niche" titles that they know won't sell well enough to sit on the shelf at
Wal-Mart, but also know there's a market out there who's dying for just
that game if only someone would make it.

I don't expect EA-BORG to do this but maybe Atari or Ubi or a forward-
thinking publisher. Atari did use the file sharing networks to distribute
TOEE, I wonder if that made them any money?

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.
!