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Anonymous
February 7, 2005 12:01:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <for_usenet-0602052339240001@3.0-24.42.1.10.in-addr.arpa> for_usenet@invalid.studio42.com writes:
>
>
>>I was talking about using a 1/8" TRS for a data connection. I've ran into
>>more than a few devices that do that, including one of my digital cameras.
>>1/8" TRS on camera end, DB-9 on the compter site.
>
>
> GAAAAKKKKK!!!


I used to make one of those - six buttons and a 16x2 LCD display don't
leave enough room on a 1/4 DIN panel for a DB-9.
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 3:41:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <110esc7iigd2tb1@corp.supernews.com> rcrowley7@xprt.net writes:

> See DCE vs DTE

A modem is clearly DCE. A CRT terminal or printer is clearly DTE. Both
were originally designed to connect only to modems, which communicated
with "The Computer" which was in some other building, down town,
shared by many users.

Things became ambiguous when things that normally were connected via
modems got connected directly. Send data on one becomes receive data
on the other, hence the necessity to swap pins 2 and 3 (and sometimes
other control pins, if used) when connecting them.

When it became common to connect things without modems, the convention
became that the computer interface was modified to accommodate the
device without using a modifed cable or "null modem." And some
weren't.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 3:41:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:


> When it became common to connect things without modems, the convention
> became that the computer interface was modified to accommodate the
> device without using a modifed cable or "null modem." And some
> weren't.


If by this you mean the DB-9 pin swap, then that's exactly the confusion
I mentioned. Reversing the pin 2-3 designations did nothing but confuse
the already-confusing issue. I even read a modem manufacturer's
description which was completely wrong - they maintained that TD (pin 3)
on a DTE became RD (pin 3) on a DCE! oops.
Related resources
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 4:46:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 7 Feb 2005 07:27:14 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>> You do recall correctly, although the signals on the DB-9 were the only
>> ones anybody used, so it wasn't so bad.
>
>Synchronous modems need more than the basic 9 pins.

Are there any now? Should there be?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 4:46:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <b8se01520a54q0beai1jb12a7jnieh7r0n@4ax.com>,
Laurence Payne <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>On 7 Feb 2005 07:27:14 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:
>
>>> You do recall correctly, although the signals on the DB-9 were the only
>>> ones anybody used, so it wasn't so bad.
>>
>>Synchronous modems need more than the basic 9 pins.
>
>Are there any now?

Yes, mostly in the IBM big iron world. IBM was always very big on
synchronous lines.

>Should there be?

Probably not.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 7:34:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <CM2dnTyTb91eDZrfRVn-2A@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:

> Never underestimate the stupidity of a Civil engineer.

I don't understand how to make bridges that stay up, and I wouldn't
expect a civil engineer to understand serial data communiations
handshaking.

However, I have never underestimated the stupidity of a generic
computer user.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 7:49:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"S O'Neill" <nopsam@nospam.net> wrote in message
> You do recall correctly, although the signals on the DB-9 were the only
> ones anybody used, so it wasn't so bad. Except the swapping of the
> functions of pins 2 & 3 which confused everybody and showed that the
> designer of same didn't understand RS-232.

Certainly all the synchronous modem stuff just took up space.


geoff
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 1:03:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Chris Pickett" <for_usenet@invalid.studio42.com> wrote in message

>
> Before I was born, eh? Can't be too many generations, I was born at the
> end of 1971. I'd have to check these OLD 9600 4-wire lease-line modems I
> have laying around for their interfaces, and I have some older stuff than
> that I'd have to dig through.

Yeah, those old 2 unit full width synchronous 9600's. They needed a few
more signals than a DB9 could supply. But not too long after you could get
an order of magnitude more data through a 'domestic' asynch modem. Times
change, and things get smaller/cheaper/faster.

geoff
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 6:55:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <fr2dnQYZy5iqLpvfRVn-vg@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:
>
>
>>You do recall correctly, although the signals on the DB-9 were the only
>>ones anybody used, so it wasn't so bad.
>
>
> Synchronous modems need more than the basic 9 pins.
>
>

PeeCees were never really appropriate for use with full bore
synchronous connections for reasons other than pinouts.

Fortunately, people made perfecty good boards ( usually
with an onboard processor ) that made the problem go away.

>>Except the swapping of the
>>functions of pins 2 & 3 which confused everybody and showed that the
>>designer of same didn't understand RS-232.
>
>
> Huh?
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 6:59:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris Pickett wrote:

> In article <110cnqb9l83fobe@corp.supernews.com>, "Richard Crowley"
> <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:
>
>
>>"Chris Pickett" <for_usenet@invalid.studio42.com> wrote in message
>>news:for_usenet-0602050955260001@3.0-24.42.1.10.in-addr.arpa...
>>
>>>In article <znr1107637482k@trad>, mrivers@d-and-d.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <for_usenet-0502051106450001@3.0-24.42.1.10.in-addr.arpa>
>>>
>>>for_usenet@invalid.studio42.com writes:
>>>
>>>>>And don't forget that Tascam and others are using DB-25 connectors
>>>>>commonly used for data for their multi-channel connectors for audio
>>>>>applications.
>>>>
>>>>That's next on my list after mini phone plugs.
>>>>
>>>
>>>What a horrible connector for data purposes, in my opinion. Sheesh,
>>>I'd
>>>rather have a real DB-9 connector so you know what the thing is for!
>>
>>
>>FIY: DB-25 was the 2nd-generation standard for data comms
>>that came into use possibly before you were born. DB-9 is
>>a bastard "standard" invented by IBM to save space on the
>>back of the PS2 (IIRC). They ignored so many of the RS-232
>>signals, that they made a "Readers' Digest Condensed Version"
>>with DB-9. Now, with portable devices getting smaller and
>>smaller, even DB-9 (or, more properly "A-size") connectors
>>appear to be overgrown and antique.
>
>
> Well, I'm rather disapointed in the lack of knowledge going around these
> days when it comes to users and modems. Nobody even remembers how to issue
> AT commands, and most don't even realize you can directly access the modem
> via the com/Serial port.
>
> I remember the DB-25 for serial. I still like it and prefer it, gets all
> my necessary leads. The DB-9 was OK, but the DCE device was always DB-25
> in my applications and environment. But, what choice do I have these days?
> I can still control the DCE end of things since I don't use consumer grade
> DCE equipment for the most part, but as far as the serial? Not much I can
> do about that.
>
> Before I was born, eh? Can't be too many generations, I was born at the
> end of 1971. I'd have to check these OLD 9600 4-wire lease-line modems I
> have laying around for their interfaces, and I have some older stuff than
> that I'd have to dig through. Most of my digital stuff is connected via
> v.35 connectors, often tied to a Cisco serial port, so sometimes I have
> pigtail cables, sometimes not, depends on the scenario.
>
> Now things are going USB and firewire. The plug and play aspect is nice,
> when it works. It still appears that things are still being overly dumbed
> down for the masses.
>

Erasing the distinction between DTE and DCE is the sort of
dumbing down I can agree with...

--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 6:59:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Les Cargill wrote:




> Erasing the distinction between DTE and DCE is the sort of
> dumbing down I can agree with...


That's why they are now square on one end and flat on the other.
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 7:00:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <for_usenet-0602052345090001@3.0-24.42.1.10.in-addr.arpa> for_usenet@invalid.studio42.com writes:
>
>
>>Well, I'm rather disapointed in the lack of knowledge going around these
>>days when it comes to users and modems. Nobody even remembers how to issue
>>AT commands, and most don't even realize you can directly access the modem
>>via the com/Serial port.
>
>
> We remember it, but they don't give us the tools for doing it any
> more. I guess you can still send commands from DOS, but I don't know
> if Windows even still comes with the terminal program.
>

Yup. It's called 'Hyperterminal'.

>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 11:05:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <EpudnUCCJ5b4tJrfRVn-qw@omsoft.com>, S O'Neill
<nopsam@nospam.net> wrote:

> Chris Pickett wrote:
>
> > I typically found that devices that swapped 2 & 3 were really not what
> > people thought that they were. Sometimes DCE and DTE can get confusing in
> > complex(and not typical) environments, especially way back in the day.
>
>
> Anything other than an actual terminal to an actual modem was abuse, not
> compliant.
>

Had a user dial into an analog modem that was connected to a 56K DSU that
had Async/Sync conversion. Don't ask me why they chose to do this, but it
was about the only way to get this guy reliable telecommuter access back a
few years ago.

Also, a company I work with was developing a cellular gateway product in
the earlier stages of cellular modems, and what it was was a pair of
modems back to back. One took IN the call, the other pumped OUT the call.
Strange configuration, but the only way to make it work back then due to
noise and other cellular issues. Subscriber service and provider specific
service offering. Now you can more or less truly direct dial.


Last I checked, both a DSU and a modem are DCE devices, by nature. Thank
goodness all I needed to make that work was a null modem cable.

--
The Deadbeats' Hall of Lame: http://www.studio42.org/
Where spammers are exposed for the deadbeats they truly are.
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Don't respond to this address. It's invalid and I own the domain.
--
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Anonymous
February 8, 2005 11:24:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris Pickett wrote:


> Last I checked, both a DSU and a modem are DCE devices, by nature. Thank
> goodness all I needed to make that work was a null modem cable.


Since both were DCE, wouldn't that have been a "null terminal" cable? :) 
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 2:16:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <eLWNd.15729$qB6.4853@tornado.tampabay.rr.com> noway@jose.com writes:

> PeeCees were never really appropriate for use with full bore
> synchronous connections for reasons other than pinouts.

That's probably true, but in the early days of PCs, the only modems
avaialbe were the "professional" ones, and even async modems still
adhered to the "professoinal" standard 25-pin connector. It was only a
few years later when the PC became a commodity item and the modem went
along for the ride that it occurred to the manufacturers that they
could shave a few cents off their cost by using a smaller connector.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 8:03:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"S O'Neill" <nopsam@nospam.net> wrote in message

>. The worst is DSR: is it always on when the DCE is on or only in response
>to DTR?
>

DSR means the modem is on and ready to work. DTR means the DTE is on and
ready to work. They are not "hand-shaking" signals.

RTS and CTS are the signals that are 'questions/responses'.

geoff
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 8:03:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Geoff Wood wrote:


> DSR means the modem is on and ready to work. DTR means the DTE is on and
> ready to work. They are not "hand-shaking" signals.


No, it's only supposed to. On the Hayes Smartmodem 300 it was hardwired
to the power supply, as it should be. On other devices, it could be
other things, sometimes even a redundant DCD. Many DTE devices do not
assert DTR even if they are ready.

Go ahead and define handshake any way you like.
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 8:03:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

S O'Neill wrote:

> On other devices, it could be other things, sometimes even a
> redundant DCD.


Now I remember where it CTS followed DCD. In the EIE-232D
specification. How stupid is that?
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 8:03:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

S O'Neill wrote:


> On other devices, it could be other things, sometimes even a
> redundant DCD.


make that:

Now I remember where it DSR followed DCD. In the EIE-232D
specification. How stupid is that?
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 9:03:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <ZPOdneLsefVHepXfRVn-3g@omsoft.com>, S O'Neill
<nopsam@nospam.net> wrote:

> Chris Pickett wrote:
>
>
> > Last I checked, both a DSU and a modem are DCE devices, by nature. Thank
> > goodness all I needed to make that work was a null modem cable.
>
>
> Since both were DCE, wouldn't that have been a "null terminal" cable? :) 

It's the same thing. It's mainly flipping RX and TX, and then I think
tying DCD to DTR. I forget exactly. That and one more short and that's it,
I think. The application would dictate that the cable maybe should have
been called a "null terminal" cable, but a null modem cable worked just
fine. Thank goodness DSL came out so they could get rid of that
configuration. Hey, I made my money.

Well, what if you want to hook up two PCs via serial connection? Again,
now you're looking at two DTE devices, and again, null modem cable.

--
The Deadbeats' Hall of Lame: http://www.studio42.org/
Where spammers are exposed for the deadbeats they truly are.
California Resident says: We've upped our standards, so now UP YOURS!
Don't respond to this address. It's invalid and I own the domain.
--
Giang Tien Audio: http://www.giangtien.com/ Sacramento, CA
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