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DRM on Hi-MD?

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January 28, 2005 2:49:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Does anyone know if this is true? I really hope not cuz I was looking
forward to getting one of these (new Hi-MD recorders)


(from an Amazon.com review)


Warning -- Your recordings will have DRM, September 20, 2004
Reviewer: Field Recorder (San Francisco, CA USA) - See all my
reviews


I've been looking for a way to replace my professional walkman for
several years, and finally decided to get this MD recorder when I found
out that it could make wave recordings and upload them to your
computer. I even read the manual before buying the unit to make certain
that wave recordings could be uploaded. What I did not know AND SONY
DOESN'T MENTION IT IN THE MANUAL is that ANYTHING you record on the
machine will be encoded with DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGMENT. This means that
if you make a recording of yourself, performing your own music, using a
microphone, you will be unable to edit the recording and distribute it
to other people on a CD. I called SONY to ask them about this, and how
to get around it. They said that corporate policy was that ANYTHING
recorded on the player was probably copyrighted, so you can't copy it!
You can still use the original files, but if you were thinking of
editing WAV files and burning CD's with the recordings you make, think
again. The only way I have found to get a WAV recording is to play the
protected file in a media player while simultaneously recording it with
a wave recorder set to use the computer's WAVE output as an input. I
don't know if this degrades the quality of the recording or not. It is
a slow process because the conversion has to take place in real time.
If you have a wave recorder, you already have this capability.

More about : drm

January 28, 2005 6:33:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Edi thanks for the input.

You say there 'other, very fine, competitive devices without any such
silly limitations." Would you suggest any in particular? Does only Sony
have the Hi-MD format? I really want to get a minidisc recorder, but I
really want to avoid having to worry about how to get the files onto my
machine. What a pain.

So are there any Hi-MD recorders I can just record onto with a mic or
line in, and then just transfer onto my daw via USB?

Barring this, are there any easy work-arounds?


Edi Zubovic wrote:

>
> -- While it is still beyond my comprehension as to Sony's "Digital
> Rights Media" copyright protection, especially that nowadays they are
> thus acting directly against theirselves, because there are other,
> very fine, competitive devices without any such silly limitations;
you
> can transfer (or "upload") your recordings from a HiMD formatted
> Minidisc via an USB port but only using Sony's proprietary software,
> the Sonic Stage. It's full of certain limitations so they could name
> it "Sony Stage" instead; but as far as the own, PCM recordings are
> concerned, you can transfer them and subsequently, convert them to a
> common *.wav files by their Wav Conversion Tool helper application.
I
> heard that even so, the original recordings on the minidisc could be
> jeopardizerd in some rare cases but I don't know how -- other than if
> you protect the MD by opening the slide, it will refuse to transfer
as
> the "MD couldn't be written to". Yes, and if you have that Sonic
Stage
> installed, and you defragment the disk, you won't be able even to
open
> it without prior making Internet connection so that the program could
> check it's status with Sony. The Sony #3 is, if you try to transfer
> your own-made and edited wav files on a MD, the Sonic Stage will
> transfer it to inferior ATRAC3 format prior to "downloading" it to
the
> MD.
>
> Well, I do certainly not support any cracking or altering any
> software, but with this one, I'd just love to see that couple of Sony
> Directx drivers cracked to point at Windows file system directly (so
> it could be read as an normal, everyday, common external drive). If I
> do care for copyrights, I really don't for someone's paranoia.
>
> I would say that otherwise, Sonmy HiMD recorders are fine and can be
> used as a compact two track recorder without any problems other than
> those abovementioned.
>
>
> Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 7:00:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ian wrote:
> Does anyone know if this is true? I really hope not cuz I was looking
> forward to getting one of these (new Hi-MD recorders)

Not true as written. You can record analog or digital 16
bit 44.1 kHz and upload it (or attempt to upload it) over
USB from the Hi-MD twice before it erases the recording from
the disc.

Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Related resources
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 2:56:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 28 Jan 2005 11:49:06 -0800, "Ian" <iancozine@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Does anyone know if this is true? I really hope not cuz I was looking
>forward to getting one of these (new Hi-MD recorders)
>
>
>(from an Amazon.com review)
>
>
>Warning -- Your recordings will have DRM, September 20, 2004
>Reviewer: Field Recorder (San Francisco, CA USA) - See all my
>reviews
>
>
>I've been looking for a way to replace my professional walkman for
>several years, and finally decided to get this MD recorder when I found
>out that it could make wave recordings and upload them to your
>computer. I even read the manual before buying the unit to make certain
>that wave recordings could be uploaded. What I did not know AND SONY
>DOESN'T MENTION IT IN THE MANUAL is that ANYTHING you record on the
>machine will be encoded with DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGMENT. This means that
>if you make a recording of yourself, performing your own music, using a
>microphone, you will be unable to edit the recording and distribute it
>to other people on a CD. I called SONY to ask them about this, and how
>to get around it. They said that corporate policy was that ANYTHING
>recorded on the player was probably copyrighted, so you can't copy it!
>You can still use the original files, but if you were thinking of
>editing WAV files and burning CD's with the recordings you make, think
>again. The only way I have found to get a WAV recording is to play the
>protected file in a media player while simultaneously recording it with
>a wave recorder set to use the computer's WAVE output as an input. I
>don't know if this degrades the quality of the recording or not. It is
>a slow process because the conversion has to take place in real time.
>If you have a wave recorder, you already have this capability.


-- While it is still beyond my comprehension as to Sony's "Digital
Rights Media" copyright protection, especially that nowadays they are
thus acting directly against theirselves, because there are other,
very fine, competitive devices without any such silly limitations; you
can transfer (or "upload") your recordings from a HiMD formatted
Minidisc via an USB port but only using Sony's proprietary software,
the Sonic Stage. It's full of certain limitations so they could name
it "Sony Stage" instead; but as far as the own, PCM recordings are
concerned, you can transfer them and subsequently, convert them to a
common *.wav files by their Wav Conversion Tool helper application. I
heard that even so, the original recordings on the minidisc could be
jeopardizerd in some rare cases but I don't know how -- other than if
you protect the MD by opening the slide, it will refuse to transfer as
the "MD couldn't be written to". Yes, and if you have that Sonic Stage
installed, and you defragment the disk, you won't be able even to open
it without prior making Internet connection so that the program could
check it's status with Sony. The Sony #3 is, if you try to transfer
your own-made and edited wav files on a MD, the Sonic Stage will
transfer it to inferior ATRAC3 format prior to "downloading" it to the
MD.

Well, I do certainly not support any cracking or altering any
software, but with this one, I'd just love to see that couple of Sony
Directx drivers cracked to point at Windows file system directly (so
it could be read as an normal, everyday, common external drive). If I
do care for copyrights, I really don't for someone's paranoia.

I would say that otherwise, Sonmy HiMD recorders are fine and can be
used as a compact two track recorder without any problems other than
those abovementioned.


Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 12:05:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 28 Jan 2005 15:33:25 -0800, "Ian" <iancozine@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Edi thanks for the input.
>
>You say there 'other, very fine, competitive devices without any such
>silly limitations." Would you suggest any in particular? Does only Sony
>have the Hi-MD format? I really want to get a minidisc recorder, but I
>really want to avoid having to worry about how to get the files onto my
>machine. What a pain.
>
>So are there any Hi-MD recorders I can just record onto with a mic or
>line in, and then just transfer onto my daw via USB?
>
>Barring this, are there any easy work-arounds?
>
>
---------8<-------------------

Ian, I wrote the above with various non-MD devices on mind, especially
flash memory recorders. But the latest info at http://www.minidisc.org
says that Onkyo and Sharp are planning to introduce HiMD devices too;
and --HA!-- this is a copy/paste info which confirms that it does
take time for something to come from somebody's, well, back to his
head:--

-------quote---------------

1/21: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds: Mark
Bausch points out stories in the Chicago Tribune (cached) and Forbes
in which Sony finally admits that its near-religious adherence to
ATRAC and an overly proprietary atitiude about music and entertainment
content has been a mistake that has cost them sales. They do vow to
finally "grow up" however. And MacWorld has the same story from a
slightly different perspective.

-----unquote----------


Well, let's see what will be going on in the future... if we've got
still another portion of patience with Sony.


Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 12:28:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:05:33 +0100, Edi Zubovic <edi.zubovic[rem
this]@ri.htnet.hr> wrote:
>>
>>Barring this, are there any easy work-arounds?
----- Just forgot to mention, that there are possibilities to use
recent Real Player software for handling the HiMD recordings. I didn't
try it as yet.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 3:36:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <ecgmv0pu485pbs7ogt54iktqsb7r61l18k@4ax.com> this]@ri.htnet.hr writes:

> -------quote---------------
>
> 1/21: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds: Mark
> Bausch points out stories in the Chicago Tribune (cached) and Forbes
> in which Sony finally admits that its near-religious adherence to
> ATRAC and an overly proprietary atitiude about music and entertainment
> content has been a mistake that has cost them sales. They do vow to
> finally "grow up" however. And MacWorld has the same story from a
> slightly different perspective.
>
> -----unquote----------

Funny how they can screw up so often. The Minidisk almost died as an
audio recording format the first time around and it was only its
popularity in Japan that saved it from the dumpster. In the US, Sony
was thinking that maybe they could use all those drives and media as a
computer storage format and there were a (very) small number of
computers built with Minidisk drives. At that time, there was no file
format I/O available so as an audio recorder, it was pretty much only
a replacement for the pocket-sized cassette recorder.

And then there was round two with the one-way-the-wrong-way USB
transfer. And now round three with the only-two-copies scheme.

I can't understand the game they're playing.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 3:36:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:



> And then there was round two with the one-way-the-wrong-way USB
> transfer. And now round three with the only-two-copies scheme.


And then they DELETE your audio!?!???!!?

That reminds me of copy-protection schemes that would delete your data
files if they decided you were using a hot copy. I don't think the
developer was in business for five minutes after that got out.
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 9:07:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> I can't understand the game they're playing.

Neither can they and they imagine they will make it up as they go and
still be in charge of the rule book. Not happening, but dinosaurs catch
on slowly. I'm not saying DRM isn't a mess, but the corral gate will not
be closed until we're out of electricity a little ways down the road.

--
ha
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 9:13:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

S O'Neill wrote:
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>
>
>> And then there was round two with the one-way-the-wrong-way USB
>> transfer. And now round three with the only-two-copies scheme.
>
>
>
> And then they DELETE your audio!?!???!!?

Believe it or not. What's worse is that an attempt that is
aborted due to a system crash, a power cutoff, or whatever
counts as one of the two possible uploads.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 1:46:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 29 Jan 2005 12:36:50 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:
---------------8<-------------------
>Funny how they can screw up so often. The Minidisk almost died as an
>audio recording format the first time around and it was only its
>popularity in Japan that saved it from the dumpster. In the US, Sony
>was thinking that maybe they could use all those drives and media as a
>computer storage format and there were a (very) small number of
>computers built with Minidisk drives. At that time, there was no file
>format I/O available so as an audio recorder, it was pretty much only
>a replacement for the pocket-sized cassette recorder.
>
>And then there was round two with the one-way-the-wrong-way USB
>transfer. And now round three with the only-two-copies scheme.
>
>I can't understand the game they're playing.

-- Hide and seek with their customers as I see. They have promised to
grow up but to be short and precise, I expect the following:

-- An unhidered and risk-free access to, and handling with, own-made
recordings (of course, file copy means the disk can be write
protected)

-- All files within the FAT32 system to be handled directly in both
ways, using common Windows routines (drag and drop from within any
file manager program, copy with write protection enabled and
move/rename/delete if the write protection is disabled etc.)

-- A possibility to flash upgrade the firmware to get rid of all
failed "protection schemes".

-- I bought the HiMD firstly because of possibility of making and
handling of uncompressed PCM files. ATRAC-whatever is totally
uninteresting to me (as well as mp3 too, when field recording is
concerned).

Today I spent some hours to download a new upgrade of Sonic Stage to
Ver. 2.3, just to see whether I could "download" some of my own PCM
wav files unaltered, uncompressed, to a HiMD as I've read somewhere
that it would now be possible. No way as I could find. Besides of
spending a quite of time for a 30+MB download I had to tell them
everything about me but the color of my underwear. Oh well.

Am I, or are the other Sony HiMD customers, asking for too much? No --
it's just normal with every other portable storage media other than
HiMD. And people will _stop_ buying HiMD and turn to very competetive
alternatives should Sony continue to play their games further on.


Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 10:05:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <pcvnv0123lvkqtt3qqsouk13bi3olsfd9q@4ax.com> this]@ri.htnet.hr writes:

> Am I, or are the other Sony HiMD customers, asking for too much? No --
> it's just normal with every other portable storage media other than
> HiMD. And people will _stop_ buying HiMD and turn to very competetive
> alternatives should Sony continue to play their games further on.

As a professional recordist, you apparently ARE asking too much of a
consumer medium. This is nothing new. When DAT first came out, it was
a consumer product. Most could only record at 48 kHz, and while you
could make a digital copy of an original recording (assuming you had
two DAT decks) you couldn't make a copy of that copy. That's all
consumer stuff. Eventually they gave us the "professional" DAT deck at
about double the price, and then finally the consumers gave it up
entirely except for the small population of concert tapers.

If you wanna be a pro, you gotta pay the pro price or put up with the
consumer nonsense. For my money, I'm putting up with the consumer
connectors while getting acceptable pro performance, but with more
risk than I'm comfortable with. I don't know that I'll make better
recordings with an Edirol R4 or something like it than I make with the
Jukebox 3, but I'll feel better about doing it.

At my age, that's gotta be worth $1,000. <g>

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 3:17:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2005-01-29, Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Ian wrote:
>> Does anyone know if this is true? I really hope not cuz I was looking
>> forward to getting one of these (new Hi-MD recorders)
>
> Not true as written. You can record analog or digital 16
> bit 44.1 kHz and upload it (or attempt to upload it) over
> USB from the Hi-MD twice before it erases the recording from
> the disc.

Precisely the reason I have not bought an MD recorder. I was an early
adopter of MD, and I even persuaded quite a few others to get MD
recorders, and I think that makes me the guy that Sony wanted to hook
for an upgrade sale. Nothin' doin. No way. It took years to nurture
my business, milliseconds to lose it, and there won't be any return.

I may be looking at it from my own me-centric point of view, but that's
okay with me. I think the loss of a loyal customer measures, period,
and Sony should care. Since they don't seem to care, the next recorder
I purchase will be one of their competitors', and I am sure that I'm not
the only one. I may be the most outraged, though, on the DRM thing --
because I regard it as the device, an extension of Sony Corp, asserting
an ownership stake over my musical compositions. I realize that is on
the extreme side, but it's my point of view, and it serves to resolutely
keep my money in my pocket and out of Sony's, and that's the bottom
line.
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 3:17:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

james of tucson wrote:
> I realize that is on
> the extreme side, but it's my point of view, and it serves to resolutely
> keep my money in my pocket and out of Sony's, and that's the bottom
> line.

Know that at least one person doesn't think it the least bit
extreme. I won't be purchasing one either for the same reasons.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
February 3, 2005 7:02:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I don't think I will be buying a Sony Hi-MD either. It really is quite
ridiculous. I can't really comprehend what they are trying to
accomplish. Stopping people from illegally copying MP3s? I don't think
mini-discs are the culprit there. You would be better off putting DRM
on Cd burners. The only other reason I can surmise is that they are
afraid people will bootleg concerts.

Can anyone suggest another Hi-MD player? Or does only Sony make them?


Bob Cain wrote:
> james of tucson wrote:
> > I realize that is on
> > the extreme side, but it's my point of view, and it serves to
resolutely
> > keep my money in my pocket and out of Sony's, and that's the bottom
> > line.
>
> Know that at least one person doesn't think it the least bit
> extreme. I won't be purchasing one either for the same reasons.
>
>
> Bob
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein
!