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Creative sound cards: WHY!?!?!?!?

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February 21, 2003 7:26:45 AM

Question:

Why would anybody purchace a CREATIVE product knowingly?

Well, as is known by anybody who enjoys quality sound, CREATIVE's idea of a good time is to make poor quality sound, and sell it as high quality goods. Aureal had the right idea before CREATIVE bought them out: Make good sound, the way it is meant to be heard. The true A3D stuff was built to produce the best surround/sterio sound, setup for the room you were in. EAX is CREATIVE's deal, and all it is is some reverb and 'sterio enhancements'.

If you get the chance, get the newest Aureal A3D card youcan find, and put it up against any CREATIVE product out there. You will notice, if you have a decent ear, the superior quality of the A3D setup.

Right now, I am running a Hercules, anything to stay away from CREATIVE. I have a CREATIVE Sound Blaster 5.1 Live! Gamer in my desk collecting dust, because I can't find anybody who wants it.

My Duron 1300 eats P4's for dinner. Oh, the Celerons make a nice snack too.

More about : creative sound cards

February 21, 2003 7:04:20 PM

Quote:
I have a CREATIVE Sound Blaster 5.1 Live! Gamer in my desk collecting dust, because I can't find anybody who wants it.


Well if it makes you feel better, I've got a 5.1 Live Value and an Audigy Gamer collecting dust, presently using the Turtle, with no complaints, chock it up to lessons learned the hard way.





Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 21, 2003 7:20:06 PM

Good man :) 

My Duron 1300 eats P4's for dinner. Oh, the Celerons make a nice snack too.
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February 21, 2003 9:13:26 PM

I know how you feel. I felt the same way when they bought Ensoniq. I'm still using the Soundscape Elite (with the effect DSP daughterboard), and it still kicks butt. I've done so much with the card I could never get rid of it. You would think that with Aureal, Ensoniq, and EMU in their pocket they would be much farther ahead of where they are now.

Oh, and I also have a Live 5.1 collecting dust. Never even bothered to take it out of the box. Thankfully it was a freebee.

Jarrett

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February 21, 2003 11:37:38 PM

They only bought Aureal out of bankruptcy court out from under Guillemot to prevent Guillemot from supporting/developing the technology. All that just to kill A3D 2.0 and driver support for the 8830 cards. Guillemot's plan was to put the 8830 back into production for their own cards, and work on further developement to become a major player in that industry.

Anyway, Creative had no intention of using any of the technology they got from Aureal. In fact, the first thing they likely did when they got Aureal was destroy all the hardware documentation.

Creative actually put Aureal out of business by filing frivolous lawsuites against them, which forced Aureal to spend a significant amount of money on their legal team. Unfortunately Aureal was not around long enough to file for damages agaist Creative, because their creditors closed in even before the original court case was over.

<font color=blue>Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!</font color=blue>
February 21, 2003 11:38:02 PM

BTW, I love my SQ2500.

<font color=blue>Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!</font color=blue>
February 22, 2003 2:15:32 AM

yeah, a good place to read up on all those court cases is www.vortexofsound.com

very good website, describing how superior the Aureal line was to CREATIVE.

My Duron 1300 eats P4's for dinner. Oh, the Celerons make a nice snack too.
February 22, 2003 3:43:19 AM

That's why they put them out of business! It cost Creative MILLIONS of dollars to kill Aureal, so they must have known what a huge threat Aureal's technology was to their market dominance.

<font color=blue>Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!</font color=blue>
February 22, 2003 7:13:51 AM

Creative is not the only one to be blamed, i think that me and all the people on this planet that bought a Creative product is an _______
(to harsh to write imagine). In America i find that the market is closed (American policy...anyway!!). When i travel to Europe, I find that they are lucky to have on their shelf’s half more brand names than us. We blame on FCC rule to not import some amazing thing’s here, but that is B.S because they have stricter laws in Europe, especially for the frequency emitted by the device. And for me, that is all I care that it doesn’t interferes whit other devices or simply hurt me, what now!!!, they would be more stupid there by doing better overall stuff, I don’t understand (not a question). Look at cars how lame the US/Can is, look, already Japan’s reputation for quality, so imagine others to in here? No wonder they strongly taxes import cars! So for what I know its politics that makes us lame consumers. We are puppets, an income for the government, guinea pigs and so on…we have to change, because if we are blaming the way the market is today its a bit our fault, we buy depending on what’s on the box (advertisement), north American products for sure will be more sold, they advertise more, if only, if only we can choose more, but here THE BIG ONES EAT THE SMALL, hopefully the next generation will be less loyal with thing’s that its simply lame an move to whatever offers best no matter who made the thing, to have a neutral point!. But I don’t know when a good company will pop out and offer us something good, if not eaten?. I feel that creative is the same as a BMW’s F1 cars, they try to beat Ferrari with raw power only, but can’t be stable for one minute, Finesse is what we want. And it’s applicable to every thing on the market. So until we can talk about another brand let me fix my SoundBlasted, get it? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ho boy it would be better not to cry. See ya!!!


Those who act make mistakes; and those who do nothing really blunder.
February 22, 2003 7:37:52 AM

I wonder what the chances are that nVidia would make a PCI expansion card featuring their nforce2 APU for all systems? Or perhaps they could sell the chips to board manufacturers the same way they sell 3D processors.

I think it's telling that nVidia, a company with little experience in audio beyond their production of XBOX, was able to create a superior sound solution to the SB Audigy--on their FIRST TRY! Maybe nVidia will be the company to step up to the plate and really challenge Creative Labs.

Or, maybe nVidia is afraid to do so, seeing as Creative has been and presumably will be a potential producer of nVidia graphics products.

At least nVidia has enough capitol to resist the kinds of hostile business practices that Creative Labs has engaged in in the past. JMHO.

I want to move to space, so I can overclock processors cooled to absolute zero.
February 22, 2003 4:21:08 PM

Yeah, I hope that nVidia will do better. I went to read a few things about it. Let's cross our fingers!
See Ya!!!

Those who act make mistakes; and those who do nothing really blunder.
February 22, 2003 5:19:33 PM

Excuse me but this insane Creative bashing has gone far enough with this statement. HOW exactly is nForce audio better than Audigy or Audigy2? Care to elaborate on special specifications besides the major hype about DD 5.1 encoding [that I've explained in a recent thread]? Does it sound better in any way with the codec chips on the mainboard being chosen by mainboard manufacturers themselves and thus having different qualities? Does it improve performance in games? Does it have BETTER sounding environmental effects in games? Does it have more channels for audio? etc. etc. etc.

I'm not saying nForce/2 audio is crap. Hell, it certainly is a turning point in integrated audio on the mainboards but unless you absolutely have to have real time DD 5.1 encoding (and remember that it's only possible with soundstorm boards), it's the same [performance-wise] if not a bit less than Audigy [quality-wise]. Don't believe me on this? Try this excellent very recent review of nForce audio here and the sound quality tests:

http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/nForce/nForce.html

And remember that they chose a board that uses the best-case scenario codec chips (Sigmatel), not the run of the mill RealTek ALC650 you'll find on almost any nForce2 board.

You know, no one says Creative or anyone else are perfect or you will go wrong with e.g. Turtle Beach or Hercules boards. But try to be a bit objective in this argument. Some of us have no problems with Creative products and actually think that at the price we paid for them, they're quite good feature and quality wise (show me a comparable card price-wise and feature-wise that has as good range and sense of soundstage in playing back classical music). If other manufacturers came with an as well or better design that didn't cost 3 or 4 times more (comparing real 24-bit/96KHz cards like Terratec DMX 6Fire at ~$250 to the original Audigy at ~$60 is NOT valid even if you take into account Creative's BS claims about the Audigy being 24/96) I guess we would all jump ship to them. For instance if M-Audio Revolution 7.1 puts behind its current [minor I should say] problems with newer driver revisions, I myself will strongly think about buying one as someone very interested in listening to stereo music. The Audigy2 is available at about the same price with better features for gaming but [probably] not as good sound as the Revo. As I don't game a lot, Revo may cut it for me big time.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by r2k on 02/22/03 10:59 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 22, 2003 11:17:16 PM

*sigh*

What does that say about Creative that nVidia was able to create what some believe is an equal if not superior product on their first try? That is my point. No, I do NOT think nForce APU is better than Audigy 2, but if you're comparing to Audigy...it's a whole 'nother story. And nForce totally blows away SB Live!, which was more of the standard when nVIdia APU was created. One would think that no on-board sound solution would be able to compete against the high-end production of a company like Creative who specializes in audio.

And incidentally, for those who mentioned Aureal, nVidia GPU has the extensions to utilize A3D, but can't because Creative owns the right and will not license them to anyone.


I want to move to space, so I can overclock processors cooled to absolute zero.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Twitch on 02/22/03 08:20 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 23, 2003 2:04:36 AM

Have you yourself actually listened to a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Soundcard, and compared it to any of the Creative Soundcards.




Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 23, 2003 2:22:40 AM

I have.The Audigy 2 pales in comparison to the Santa Cruz.
February 23, 2003 5:00:07 AM

1. nForce/2 SHOULD blow away Live! (a 3 or 4 years old sound card) don't you think? BTW did you read that article? nForce and Audigy (not 2) compare favouribly but remember this is with a [seemingly] better codec than the norm (Realtek ALC650, used in all sorts of mainboards with integrated audio not just nForce/2).

2. It tells you that nVidia is a hell of a good company. They are IMHO what the lame sorts of ATI or Creative need for competition.

3. Incidentally, a GPU is for graphics ;)  Sorry couldn't resist! Almost all cards support A3D 1.0 and 2.0 extensions (nVidia APU and Creative Live! and Audigy/2 included) either directly or via DirectSound3D. Actually (if you read that article...) nForce A3D support is there and working. The only thing being that the file necessary for this (A3D.dll) is not installed on your system so some older games that check for this specific file to enable your card's envirnomental and 3D capabilities don't work. And, while A3D 2.0 was very interesting (from what I've read and understood) it had a heavy toll on the CPU because of all the complex wavetracing calculations. So Creative (and everyone else including Sensaura, QSound and others BTW, again read the sidenotes on that article) proposed that the same effects can be simulated with less complex static reverb algorithms. And EAX Advanced HD is much better than EAX 2.0 IMO (if you trust Creative demoes; Has anyone played an EAX AdvancedHD title yet? Share the experience!).

3. 4Ryan6 alas no unfortunately not the TB SC. But I've compared two other cards, a Hercules Muse DVD 5.1 and a Philips Accoustic Edge (and that was a fortunate opportunity: I bought the Muse for a friend's PC because he wanted to set up for herself a very cheap DVD capable card and the Accoustic Edge I recommended to another gamer friend for its interesting QSound capabilities. I couldn't resist comparing them with the Audigy). IMHO Audigy was better than both in music playback (mostly classical tracks, including some scenes from the ballet 'Faust' by Gounod). The Muse was tinny (somewhat too crisp highs with a very flat soundstage) and was far behind. The Accoustic Edge fared much better but the Audigy was just more dynamic with a much better soundstage. But really, I think you can't find obvious flaws with any sound card these days and it all comes down to minute differences and different tastes. All three tests done in my PC (a P3 733/BX system) in the same PCI slot and all three with their analog audio out connected to my Denon integrated stereo amp/B&W speakers.

Share with us your experience with TB SC.
February 23, 2003 8:07:02 AM

Too crisp at highs? There is no such thing. If you think that is the problem, try replacing you speakers and amplifier. Install the correct filters if you must, but there is no such thing as too crisp. You may not like superiorly true-to-recording sound, but that is what you get if you don't buy a CREATIVE sound card. I've got my $39.99 Herculese Muse 5.1 DVD hooked up through my JBL audio home theatre system, and when I plug a DVD into this pile, I get superb sound. I tell you, there is a reason I removed that SB Live! from my system.

Also,
I don't seem to recall any hardware issues with Hercules or Aureal sound cards. I do know that to get any CREATIVE sound card to work on my system, I have to dig through and find special drivers, rig my bios to specific settings, and do some other time consuming modifications.

You yourself just stated the reasoning why I dislike CREATIVE the most: "So Creative proposed that the same effects can be simulated with less complex static reverb algorithms."

Simulated? Sure, they did that with everything, including their idea of surround, and all other audio coming from the card. I don't want simulated, I want true, what-it-is-supposed-to-be sound from my sound card. CREATIVE decided for us that we didn't need real sound, but that their sound was good enough. I disagree, it's like listining to a JBL audio system, then listening to a Yamaha system. You'll want to throw the Yamaha system away because it sounds so 'bad'. Of course, had you never listened to the JBL audio, you would have never known the Yamaha system sucked. (of course JBL is just exceptable sound, not great sound)

Next time you listen to a Hercules card (or anything else), make sure it is setup in the same environment, same speakers and the same song. Listen to Also Sprach Zarathustra in high quality. If you floor isn't shaking and pictures falling off the walls at the beginning, you speakers are not satifactory (I think is is like 20 to 30 hertz). Listen to that crash at each peak, and it should be VERY crisp, along with the chimes at the end. They should sound like somebody is standing in front of you playing them. And make sure the sound equalization is set correctly for the room you are in, otherwise the test isn't worth a damn.

The test is null and void if you don't have decent speakers. Of course, I am what I'd call an audio-file (lol), and I don't like second rate sound, which is why I quit buying CREATIVE.

My Duron 1300 eats P4's for dinner. Oh, the Celerons make a nice snack too.
February 23, 2003 11:52:17 AM

Most Creative flag wavers, have not actually listened to the difference between the cards for themselves, they are either dedicated, loyal, Creative fans, or are basing their opinions on some spec sheets they saw somewhere, what I'm saying is, I have the cards, I've wasted a chunk of money on Creative soundcards, I've heard the difference between them, I've listened to the Creative soundcards caracteristically develope the crackling and popping sounds that appear after a while of being installed, that usually an uninstall and reinstall is required to cure, I like having my center channel work with games and music, but mainly when I install something, I want to be able to use the thing without problems arising, just when I really need the thing to work, and so far I've run the Turtle on Win98SE, Win2K, WinXP Pro, with not one single problem, thats why my Creative cards are collecting dust, and its also why if my Turtle blew up today I'd go buy another one, because in comparison to Creative I've gotten my money out of the thing, which I cannot say for Creative. A friend of mine told me a long time ago unless you've actually compared the two things your talking about, yourself, you don't really know what you're talking about, and he was absolutely right. I cannot speak for all the soundcards on the market, but the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz is a better soundcard than all the Creative cards I own, collecting dust.




Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 23, 2003 5:50:09 PM

To Mr. 'Audio-file'-pretend (check your spelling a bit before you respond with your informative posts, it's not funny when you have 50 mistakes in 100 words):

Quote:
Too crisp highs? There is no such thing. If you think that is the problem, try replacing you speakers and amplifier. Install the correct filters if you must, but there is no such thing as too crisp. You may not like superiorly true-to-recording sound, but that is what you get if you don't buy a CREATIVE sound card.


I was wrong in stating 'too crisp'. I should have said tinny and metallic i.e. a sound with overdone midrange and thin and deficient bass. A sound that is too shrill, too brassy; the kind startups like you mistake for a product's level of detail. A sound that's going to be generally hard on your ear if you listen too long. Thanks to your fairly good sound system (the JBL), you probably don't experience this fatigue because it has probably a very forgiving nature itself, not the analytical trueness you get with some other audio systems. And stop comparing the Live! because I haven't heard it and it's too old IMO to be representative of Creative of today.

Quote:
I don't seem to recall any hardware issues with Hercules or Aureal sound cards. I do know that to get any CREATIVE sound card to work on my system, I have to dig through and find special drivers, rig my bios to specific settings, and do some other time consuming modifications.


And I don't seem to remember any hardware issues with my Audigy. I didn't have to do anything. It just worked out of the box. I didn't even bother to download new drivers for it first. I'm not trying to defend Creative, they can go to hell for all I care, but there are many others out there that have no problems with Creative products.

Quote:
Simulated? Sure, they did that with everything, including their idea of surround, and all other audio coming from the card. I don't want simulated, I want true, what-it-is-supposed-to-be sound from my sound card.


Look, I don't know much about environmental effects but I know this: Aureal's wave tracing technology was very resource intensive and it wasn't very feasible performance-wise to use their extensions (count the number of games with A3D 2 support please). What's the deal with so much hatred for something that comes close to A3D 2.0 with so much less resource consuming? Why didn't anybody else at least take a clue and invent THEIR system for wavetracing? Why did QSound and Sensaura and Microsoft and everybody else back Creative in this regard long before Creative consumed Aureal? Or didn't you know Sensaura and QSound are pure software effects that are much like EAX?

Quote:
CREATIVE decided for us that we didn't need real sound, but that their sound was good enough.


So did nVidia with GeForce and GeForce2, so did ATI with Radeon. GF3 and GF4 Ti and 8500 and 9000 only came out after you could actually make better use of their DX8 style dynamic shaders. Does that mean all companies had to wait a few years and only then release their DX8 parts into market? And their EAX effects aren’t as bad as you say: Have you actually compared Aureal cards (A3D 2.0) with EAX AdvancedHD? And you tell us all that Creative should go die or something. I’m not going to discuss this because my knowledge is scarce. But read that [-peep-] article I linked. It’s a good start.

And what's the deal with comparing Yamaha and JBL or any other brands in this discussion? Which of their products? JBL is mostly a speaker company but Yamaha's products are diverse, from amplifiers and CD players to speakers to home theatre boxes and mini systems. Yamaha has good products like their mini-systems to excellent ones like their older studio monitors to very bad ones like their AX-396/496/596 series of stereo amplifiers. JBL has utter crap speakers that are only suitable for booming sounds for teen parties and higher-end excellent stereo or multi-channel ones that beat Yamaha’s current NS series to pieces sound quality wise.

Quote:
Next time you listen to a Hercules card (or anything else), make sure it is setup in the same environment, same speakers and the same song.


Thank you for the advice (/me rolls eyes). But you could've saved energy not typing it if you read my earlier post. Shall I shed some more light on this? Here goes: I used all the cards in my own PC (in the same PCI slot even) which is a P3 733/MSI BX system with a fanless GF2 MX400 and slow fans all around; I did the subjective tests in my own room and always at the same location. I didn't move the speakers or any furniture. I tested with the same songs. They were all audio CD tracks played in my Teac writer (digital extraction enabled) with speed set to 4x in Ahead's Drive Speed utility (because at 40x the drive makes enough noise to distract you from listening to music). The cards' front outputs were connected to the CD input on my Denon PMA-655R integrated stereo amplifier (http://denon.jp/europe, 2x50watts into 8ohms RMS (20Hz-20KHz THD=0.07) and 85 watts into 4ohms, 6 source inputs including a phono stage and preamp, THD=0.01% (-3dB at rated output, 8ohms, 1KHz), 107dB SNR just to get your 'audio-file'-ness going) bought for about $315 a few months ago. The Denon was connected to what are probably one of or THE best bookshelves at their price range i.e. a pair of B&W DM-303 2 way vented box stereo loudspeakers on suitable stands (http://www.bwspeakers.com, with a 160mm woven fiberglass cone and a 26mm metal dome tweeter, 32-30KHz frequency response ±3 dB on reference axis, 88dB sensitivity (2.83V, 1m), 25-100watts into 8ohms RMS on unclipped program) bought at the same time with the Denon for $250. Not that any of the techno numbers are important here. I liked the combination's sound compared to other configurations and bought it.But as you are an 'audio-file' I thought I might tell you what I used. It is at the very least, a decent Mid-Fi system and probably only picking an NAD C320 amplifier can beat it in sound quality for the price. Shall I also mention the overall characteristics of my setup? Extra fine detail, high on range, very neutral sounding without any hints of coloration like sibilance or wiriness, bass is not boxy or boomy but instead very tight and accurate. The whole thing could be described as subtle. Their cons? The soundstage could be deeper and the bass could go a bit deeper for all I care. This isn't a Meridian reference amplifier with a Wadia CD player and B&W Nautilus 800s (for a grand total of $45'000 or more) but comes IMHO close enough for testing some <$60 sound cards, don’t you think? Ah, and the tests were done (as I always do when listening) with Denon's 'Source Direct' switch set to 'on' to get as close as possible to the sound of the source material.

Anyone else that doesn't believe me when I say Audigy is a good sounding card can also check Tech-report's 2 articles on sound card comparison and see how Audigy fairs compared to all the cards you're mentioning here and more.

Quote:
If you floor isn't shaking and pictures falling off the walls at the beginning, you speakers are not satifactory...


Spoken like a typical proud boombox owner. You know, I think I shouldn't have written anything and saved my time because this just shows your degree of 'audio-file’-ness which is [first mistaking a dry midrange and treble for resolution and detail and then] touting good sound as something that cracks windows and trashes your ear. A boomy trashy and nonmusical representation of the material from someone that's claiming to be an audiophile? Go get a clue and some spelling lessons.
February 23, 2003 8:31:45 PM

<b>THE CREATIVE MEDICINE MAN SHOW</b>

Step right up Ladies and Gentlemen, have I got a product for you, alright young man, what can I do for you? Well Sir, I love gaming. Say no more son, I've got just what you need. Heres the Creative Audigy Gamer Soundcard, it will do everything you need for gaming, just give me 100smackers and the card is yours, and be on your way son I've got a lot of business to do here today. Well Sir? If I buy this card will it play all my games with no problems, and work with any Operating system? Thats what the box says son, So be on your way now. But Sir I have another question? What is it son? I've got an extensive collection of MP3 files I'd like to play on my machine, will this Gamer card play my MP3 files? Well yes it will son, but you won't have your 5.1 surround sound, like you will playing EAX specific games, just a little inconvenience of your center channel not working. But Sir? I bought these nice 5.1 surround speakers, and I want to hear 5.1 when I play MP3s? Why didn't you say so son, Heres the card you really need, The Creative Audigy MP3, now you'll be able to play your MP3s, and I'll let you have this dandy card for, aw what the heck, I'll let you have it for 100smackers too. Wow this is great, I'll be able to do my Gaming and listen to my MP3s with the same wonderful card, Thank you Sir! Woah there young whippersnapper, for Gaming and MP3s, you'll need both of these cards. But Sir. I can't run but one card. Then Son you've come to the right place, what you really need is the Creative Audigy Platinum Soundcard, its supposed to do everything but wash your dishes, at least thats what it says on the box, and I'll let you have the card for a measley 200Smackers. Sir? 200Smackers? Thats twice the prices of the other cards. Thats excellent math skills my boy, but what do you expect you're getting a Gamer and MP3 card in one, and to lessen the sting a little were including a breakout box that you can install in a vacant 5 1/2" drive bay, assuming you have a vacant bay. But Sir? I really think this is too much money, but I'll spend it if you can guarantee me it will work for all my needs, and for whatever operating system. Son if you have any problems at all just send up some smoke signals and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Sir can I ask you one more question? Sure Son what is it? Why don't you have one reasonably priced soundcard that does everything, instead of all these different prioritary cards. Well Son, its all about money, and supply and demand, and the name change issue. Sir? I understand the first part, but what did you mean about the name change issue? Well Son if we made one reasonably priced soundcard that did everything, we'd have to change our name to Turtle Beach. Hope you guys enjoyed that. Ryan

Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 24, 2003 3:15:19 AM

:D  This is gonna be fun!

Ok, 50 mistakes in 100 words? I just spell checked the whole post, and I had 4 spelling mistakes, all created at 3AM Alaska Time.
Second, audio-file was a joke. As my MP3 folder has 400 Audio Files in it, I joke about being an audio-file. Of course that doesn't include my extensive collection of CD's (which are not as high quality as most believe). So think before you speak.

I compare the 5.1 Live! due to its price, which is actually more than the Hercules I have right now.

I own JBL because of its true pure sound. The Yamaha speakers I wrote about were of equivalent size, actually MEANT to compete with the JBL's. This isn't a micro system either; it's a home theatre system, with full size subs, woofers, mids, highs and tweets. No the sub isn't set at an obnoxiously high level.

No, I am not a thumper, but when I plug in Saving Private Ryan, I want to feel as though I was there. To do that, the sound has to be high quality, not necessarily big.

Question: How do you get off saying JBL is crap? Have you actually listened to music through it? Try listening to The Moody Blues: Your Wildest Dreams, or Van Halen: 1984 & Jump. Get some jazz, listen to that. I have spent many hours listening to many setups, the JBL jumped out at me as the best I could buy at a store.

Your problem with the ear-trashing thing is sensible, I don't listen to music at extreme levels either, but I do enjoy quality music. Sometimes you have to turn up the volume a bit to get a clear representation of what the entire system sounds like. In other words, if I talked in a normal voice from 10 feet away, you should not be able to understand me.

I don't own 'boom boxes', I own stereo systems. If I went to Wal-Mart or Fred Meyer, I wouldn't find one piece of music equipment that suits my standards, except a beauty Sony mini-stereo I once saw.

So don't go bashing on me. Just because I have distaste for CREATIVE after wasting more than 200 bucks on their inferior products in the past (including video cards and audio cards), doesn't mean you have to blow up.


Water cooling is for the weak. Get liquid nitrogen.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Skligmund on 02/24/03 00:16 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 24, 2003 6:58:59 AM

4ryan6: IMO it's alright if you hate Creative or anybody else but it's wrong if you post outright lies in a public forum even through jokes.

If you want to play 5.1 games any Audigy (even the OEM version) can do. If you want to listen to MP3 or audio CDs in stereo any Audigy will do. Not all Live! cards had 5.1 support but all Audigy versions do. The only difference between Audigy cards are the bundled software and the drive. Gamer and MP3 have a simple but relevant software bundle but are actually the same card with the same chip, with the same codec. The Firewire port is present on almost any Audigy version out there. And the Platinum and Platinum eX have the drive bay extension that offers more connectivity, the former having the internal 5.25" and the latter the external breakout box not mentioning the remote control. Audigy2 is the same, the Platinum eX version of it being considerably revamped and updated.

No mp3 is encoded for 5.1 listening [yet?]. MP3 files like their sources (CD audio) are stereo only. And frankly, stereo is just fine if not so much better than something like Dolby ProLogic or CMSS or Circle Surround that try to simulate 5.1 music. If the music was intended to be played in 5.1 (like DVD-Audio and SACD), you then had to own a compatible player and receiver that could take the original 5.1 mix and master (mixed by a recording and mixing professional who WANTED you to hear in 6 channels, knew the music he worked on well and sent each part of it to the channels he found most suitable for playing it i.e. the way that music could be best expressed in multi-channel if the artist wanted). There would be no software tricks to convert a stereo signal to a multi-channel one. Ask some people that enjoy listening to good music with good gear and you'll be told that none of them listen to stereo music done in pseudo-5.1 or n.1 for that matter. The only exceptions here being either adding a subwoofer for smaller and leaner speakers (2.1) and the 'Trifield', what stereo was meant to be: with 3 speakers not two. Somehow like adding a centre channel to stereo that would then be primarily used for vocals. IIRC Meridian still produces Trifield equipment that you can set up with three identical stereo speakers and I think there are trifield and quad(?) LPs still around that are recorded this way (Thick as a brick by Jethro Tull comes to mind). Anyway the point of being able to play back pseudo-multichannel music is IMO invalid.

Again, all Audigy cards are 5.1 capable and all can play MP3s in all their [compressed] glory in stereo or 2.1 mode. If a game has 4.1 channel sound effects and music you can't play it in 5.1, so your center will not work. Play a game with 5.1 sound or watch a DVD and it will come to life. Listen to a DVD-Audio on Audigy2 and you will have multi-channel music in 5.1.

And for the record, the OEM Audigy and the Asian SE version go for about $60-65 (if not less), not 100 bucks that you mention.

Also see <A HREF="http://www.soundblaster.com/products/audigy/compare.asp" target="_new">this chart</A> and <A HREF="http://www.soundblaster.com/products/audigy/specs.asp" target="_new"> this specification page </A>. You can also read <A HREF="http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2002q2/soundcards/in..." target="_new"> this article </A> (specially from page 7 to the end) and <A HREF="http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2003q1/soundcards/in..." target="_new"> this one </A> to read some comparisons and subjective tests on different sound cards.
February 24, 2003 7:08:21 AM

r2K

Since you seem to be an expert on Creative, I will ask you this: Since I have an Audigy Platinum, if I bought the Audigy 2 card alone (about $120) would I be able to keep and use my Audigy drive? (You know the 5.25" input/output rack...) They look identical except one has Audigy on the front and the other has Audigy 2.

And assuming money is not a major issue, do you think it's a worthwhile upgrade specifically for music and DVD movies?



I want to move to space, so I can overclock processors cooled to absolute zero.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Twitch on 02/24/03 04:14 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 24, 2003 11:18:43 AM

Yes it was a joke story, but its not full of lies in the US the cards sold for $99.99 each, OK I was wrong, Thats not a hundred dollars to be fair to you, The Turtle Beach sold for $79.99, maybe MP3s are not marketed in true 5.1, unless you can find one thats been redone in DVD 5.1, which will probably be the future format, but the Turtle will emulate 5.1 and allow you to use the speakers you've paid for. I was a Creative fan and no one could tell me different either, until I heard for myself, maybe one day you'll get out of the specsheet world, and actually listen to the competition, so you'll know what the heck you are talking about, instead of it being a one sided arguement.


Quote:
Also see this chart and this specification page . You can also read this article (specially from page 7 to the end) and this one to read some comparisons and subjective tests on different sound cards.

See My Point Exactly!!!

Quote:
4Ryan6 alas no unfortunately not the TB SC. But I've compared two other cards, a Hercules Muse DVD 5.1 and a Philips Accoustic Edge

Now seeing as how you actually compared these cards, what you have to say in this area could be valuable information, because with first hand experience, you should know what you're talking about, Right? You may actually be a true authority on these cards, but on the TBSC you are not.


Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 24, 2003 3:55:49 PM

I'm not an expert on Audigy. I just own one, like the way it sounds, have compared it to two other mainstream cards and again prefer its sound over them and it hasn't caused me any problems.

I don't know about Audigy drive working with A2. They seem identical enough but you never know. You might want to check the connectors/ports (between the drive and the card itself) on the Audigy2. Maybe if there were no differences, they'd work. I really don't know.

Apart from being a true 24/96 card (or 24/192 in stereo mode), some people on other forums say the Audigy2 has a far better sound than the Audigy in ordinary CD or MP3 playback. Take this for what you want. I myself am evaluating two other cards apart from A2 to replace the Audigy right now. The main pro of A2 for me is ready to play DVD-Audio support that helps me save on not buying a set-top DVD player capable of DVD-A and instead, use my PC for that, and then go and buy a dedicated CD player to add to my system. The other two are M-Audio Revolution 7.1 which believe me if a software for DVD-A playback was available for it I'd waste no time in getting (people on other forums say M-Audio has never produced a better sounding card than Revo, including even the venerable Audiophile2496), the third Terratec's Aureon 5.1 sky. I game from time to time (maybe one game in about 2 months) and that also makes A2 a strong contender here. I must say a very good question. If only someone could compare the two and publish a complete review online ;) 
February 25, 2003 3:27:54 PM

Quote:
I compare the 5.1 Live! due to its price, which is actually more than the Hercules I have right now.


Whats your comparison of the Hercules Soundcard to the Creative 5.1 Live or any of the Creative Cards you've owned, from personal experience? Traits, Problems, Pros, Cons, whatever?





Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 25, 2003 3:43:16 PM

Quote:
But I've compared two other cards, a Hercules Muse DVD 5.1 and a Philips Accoustic Edge

If you installed these cards for friends, how much comparison time did you have with them? Did installations go OK, or did you run into any problems? And what are your personal opinions you gathered from each card, please don't use specsheet quotes, just what you heard and experienced for yourself?

Try to understand, I presently own and am in possession of, an Audigy Gamer and a 5.1 Live Value. Got rid of a PCI-512 and a PCI-128, so my comparisons have been extensive and expensive, you didn't make these cards yourself, you're just a consumer, no one is blaming you for anything, I believe if the companys would just listen to the consumers complaints and solidly act on them we would have some excellent soundcard choices that everyone would be pleased with, unfortunately thats not the case, so lets hear your unbiased opinion from your actual experiences, because those experiences are what we all have to deal with.


Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 25, 2003 6:06:15 PM

But I already described my impressions in full, didn't I? Please refer to my several posts in this thread again.

The only important thing I missed was the music tracks I tested with so here goes. Ah, and I only did music listening tests, no game plays (Philips seemingly has a great asset here and that's QSound, check the Tech-report article I mentioned earlier, it was the reason I recommended it to my friend):

1. Act V from 'Faust' by 'Charles François Gounod' done by 'Royal Philharmonic Orchestra' conducted by 'Sir Thomas Beecham'. IMHO especially the 'Danse de Phryné' part makes for a very good simultaneous test of detail and soundstage presentation. This was from a 2 disc set called 'Simply the best ballet music' (DCL 703282).

2. Schumann: Kinderszenen, Op.15 - Träumerei (Jeno Jandó on piano) (Naxos 8.556662).
3. Sergey Prokofiev: Lieutenant Kijé, Suite, Op.60 - Troika (Czecho-Slovak State Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Andrew Mogrelia) (Naxos 8.556681).

These 2 are really good tests IMO because they totally overwhelm systems with artificial and tinny sound and/or overemphacized midrange and treble. The Prokofiev track has violins playing to the highest octaves and back and their sound can be severely irritating to the ear if reproduced badly.

4. Two tracks by 'Marianne Faithful': 'Tower of Song' and 'For Wanting You'(both from 'Vagabond Ways', 2000).
5. 'Sonnet' by 'the Verve' (from 'Urban Hymns', 1997).
6. 'Hill Groove' by 'Joe Satriani' (from 'Strange Beautiful Music', 2002, this was a 256kbps CBR mp3 encoded by LAME)
7. The 3-4 first minutes of 'Dogs' (before the music tones down and changes) by 'Pink Floyd' (from 'Animals', 1977). My original isn't working well because of me mishandling it :(  so this was from a duplicate I made earlier (I recall EAC was working on the whole album and error correcting it for ~50 minutes on my Asus 40x reader).

IMMHO the Audigy was the best of the three in all tests. Muse did very poorly with the classics. The Philips' sound was uninvolving in one word e.g. 'Hill Groove' was impressive and balanced on Audigy (and gung-ho and energetic on the Muse) but lifeless and quite dull on the Accoustic Edge.

BTW, time was of no importance because I had almost a day to install every card and play with it. I liked the very efficient and also very friendly drivers of Muse and I hope Creative can take some lessons from Hercules and not attach every bloatware they can to the software bundle. Installation of drivers went very smooth. No special things to report here.

Edit: I just reread some parts of the first Tech-report article and I caught something I had completely missed earlier. Did you know that Audigy uses a Philips DAC onboard (different to AEdge)?! Ironic isn't it...
February 26, 2003 6:41:47 AM

Traits and problems of the SB Live! 5.1:

A never resolved issue with the ever so common VIA 686B southbridge, which enduces crackling and just poor sound.

The drivers are hard to decipher for which one I need.

I can't completely remove the drivers unless I have RegCleaner and some knowlege about removing system files.

Takes 15-20 minutes to download current drivers, 15-20 minutes to install drivers for it, and another 15-20 minutes to get it set up correctly. (removing emulation for DOS ect.)

And it cost me 15 bucks more that the Muse 5.1 DVD,which I will admit isn't close to the best sound I've heard, but it is somewhat acceptable, considering I don't want to buy ANOTHER sound card (making it 4).

Oh, I like the software for the Hercules, it seems more comprehensive, allowing me to tweak it without jumping through hoops.

I do not feel the mere sound of a card is 100 percent the meaning, I like the rest of my computer to run also. I don't consider myself as a Hercules billboard, but I will say for 29.99 the Hercules does come through, instead of spending more for a CREATIVE, which has a set of problems (for me) that are unacceptable.

Other CREATIVE products I have experience with:

CREATIVE CD-ROM drive, which worked good for a month, now it works sometimes, and is now in the pile along with the rest of my old stuff.

CREATIVE Savage4 AGP card, even though I have fdisked and reformatted 5 or 6 times since it was installed, I don't think the drivers are all gone yet (lol, *joke*). And it was a true un-performer, never could make it run D3D correctly.

CREATIVE soundblaster 16 (I think), that one actually worked well, except for its inability to handle high quality Mp3's on a slower computer, but that was fixed by tweaking the crap out of it in the hardware settings.

One thing that seemed to plague me throughout my CREATIVE life was the exceptionally high number of IRQ conflicts I got with them installed. I actually was disabling the game port and mic and other things on my motherboard because the soundblaster didn't want the other IRQ's that I had available. I think that had something to do with the drivers though, which I did resolve, shortly before I bought the Hercules.

So maybe it's not truely a bttle with Sound Blaster, but CREATIVE in general, which made/makes too many poor marketing and manufacturing decisions.

Water cooling is for the weak. Get liquid nitrogen.
February 26, 2003 11:36:03 AM

Quote:
A never resolved issue with the ever so common VIA 686B southbridge, which enduces crackling and just poor sound.


This is true and a shame because I feel this is a big f***up in hardware (thus not having an easy software solution) either in the VIA southbridge or the Live! or both. The problems have occured less with Audigy and Audigy2 it seems and there are many out there that don't have this problem even with Live! and 686B VIA boards (or maybe they haven't tested thoroughly).

Quote:
I can't completely remove the drivers unless I have RegCleaner and some knowlege about removing system files.


Again right. However, this concerns almost all companies. nVidia and ATI drivers show this behaviour too and it's very annoying when you want to uninstall them and install another card and the leftovers sometimes cause you a lot of headaches.

Quote:
And it cost me 15 bucks more that the Muse 5.1 DVD,which I will admit isn't close to the best sound I've heard, but it is somewhat acceptable, considering I don't want to buy ANOTHER sound card (making it 4).

Oh, I like the software for the Hercules, it seems more comprehensive, allowing me to tweak it without jumping through hoops.


Right on. Muse 5.1 DVD is probably THE budget sound card because it's simply unbeatable for the price. But remember that Muse is actually the equivalent of onboard sound on most of today's mainboards (the chip/codec is the same, CMedia 8738). Anyone with onboard sound from CMedia shouldn't bother at all.

Quote:
CREATIVE CD-ROM drive, which worked good for a month, now it works sometimes, and is now in the pile along with the rest of my old stuff.


Again quite true. 3 of my friends that have had these drives tell me that never in their computing life they've worked with shittier drives than the iNfra line. One that still uses a 52x (after two bad ones returned) mostly uses the remote control and from time to time he uses canned air to clean the insides. Or else the drive will just go on opening and closing its tray without being able to access the CD.

See, if you stop expecting everyone to accept 0 what you say about a matter (and writing in plain English like you do now ;)  sorry for the joke!), we can get along with each other quite well :)  On a side note I'm truly sorry if you feel I overreacted before.
February 27, 2003 2:13:27 AM

I think hardwarewise Creative puts out a descent product, I also think hardware conflicts like the one you mentioned with the VIA chipset, and especially their drivers are the biggest negatives, I've run into. I don't understand why, for example, I can install my Audigy card, and when its first installed it works perfectly, this lasts about two weeks, then starts the irritating, occasional crackling and popping, I can uninstall and reinstall the card, and its fine again, after a while that gets old, and I got fed up with it. Why would it work fine for a while, and then start screwing up, if it wasn't driver related, uninstalling and reinstalling doesn't affect hardware, so why do the drivers degrade somehow. My Audigy, tucked away in my file cabinet, is the most expensive soundcard I own, at the time I bought it, it cost me $99.99 + Tax US, and anyone reading this in the US, knows thats the truth. I was so disgusted with the card, and fed up with messing with it, I went with Turtle Beach, I had heard it was a good card, so I said what the heck and got one, installed it one time and have been using it ever since. What doesn't make sense is if Creative would cut out some of the various models it markets, and apply those extra expenses to driver developement, and producing patches to resolve conflicts with other hardware, that the cards have to work with, they would probably be some of the best soundcards period. Good business practices, are to keep the customers satisfied, the customers are the companys future, loosing customers to the point they no longer want to even take another chance with their products, is the worst thing a company can do, it may take time but it will come back on them, I hope Creative wises up before its too late, too many companys are going out of business these days.

Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 27, 2003 2:16:56 AM

Well r2k I would definitely say you have good taste in music, if we can't agree on anything else.



Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 27, 2003 3:06:27 AM

Yeah, thats a Ten-Four on the music. Thanks for the apology (hehe) I must say I probably came off a bit hard too, but it was like 3 am, and I was having a pretty bad day.

Now that we have ruffled the feathers so to say, I am glad we can not turn this into a pissing match. LOL

Have a good day.

Water cooling is for the weak. Get liquid nitrogen.
February 27, 2003 4:28:45 AM

Wow, I just read all your postings. Pretty entertaining stuff inside a what would usually be very dull forum.

About the pops and crackling from the Audigy...I had that too. I installed the new drivers on the net and it's been running great ever since (~2 months).

Well, to put my opinion on Creative sound cards...First of all, the only cards I've had extensive exposure to were old onboard ones (Cirrus Logic), SB 16, 64 Gold, 128, 512, Live! Value, and my current one, the Audigy. The thing about Creative I find time and time again is their drivers almost never install properly on my first attempt. I've had bad experiences with their drivers ever since the SB 128s.

I'm a pretty dedicated SoundBlaster customer. I've gone back to them regardless because they've been here the longest and IMO, more games support their technology. Their prices aren't half bad either.

I'm probably going to buy the Audigy II in a few months. Pretty disappointed with the Audigy I. I should have looked in forums to see how people liked/disliked it. I hear little difference in sound quality from the Audigy and a Live! Value. Really, the big difference is the 5.1. Well, I hope the Audigy II doesn't disappoint.

Intel Pentium 4 2.4B GHz
Asus P4S8X Gold
Samsung 256MB DDR333
SoundBlaster Audigy
February 27, 2003 4:36:11 PM

My lord, this thread appears to be a bunch of novices arguing over whether a Geo Metro is better than a Suzuki Sprint; they're both crap.

None of you have done any level of research before you came in here to banter about the deficiencies of Creative and to sing the praises of Guillemot, Aureal, and Turtle Beach. If you want performance, you can't get it from garbage like this.

The aforementioned brands are the Fords, GMs, and maybe VWs and Hondas of the sound card stage. You neglect such performers as the Subarus, Porches, BMWs, and Maseratis. Companies like M-Audio, Audiotrak, and my favorite, RME, will SLAUGHTER anything you have mentioned thus far, not only in features and capabilites, but in sheer sound quality and performance.

You listen to the RME Digi 96/8 and you can actually "feel" the bass pierce your body, where Santa Cruz's will be flat and dull. The trebles are clear and precise, even at 90%+ output. No clipping, no distortion, no loss of stereo and surround imaging quality whatsoever. Granted, the RME is $400 Cdn (about $100 more than the Audigy2 Platinum), but you can still get amazing performers for about $250-300 Cdn, the same price as Audigy2s. And any day of the week, these cards will have better response (<3ms, whereas Creative cards can barely achieve 30ms), and DAC (flawless conversion) to die for, across all frequencies. They may not be as universally compatible as other cards (they are, after all, pro audio cards, and are made for studio work and professional DJ settings, not casual gaming and MP3 playback), but they are in no way limited in their design. Where Creative barely supports D3D, most of these also support ASIO, EASI, WAVE, and KERNEL processing modes, resulting in lower system loads, higher response, and spectacularely higher quality. Listening to this card hooked up to a HK receiver and a set of Athena S2/P3s and you forget you're listening to speakers, and aren't at a live show.

For true audiophiles, there is absolutely no comparison. Generic cornerstore brand cigars vs. Cubans. It's not even a contest.
February 27, 2003 5:29:00 PM

Quote:
My lord, this thread appears to be a bunch of novices arguing over whether a Geo Metro is better than a Suzuki Sprint; they're both crap.

Not novices just not quite ready to invest the money involved in a high end soundcard, unless we're sure we're not going to get screwed on the deal, but seeing as how the Graphics card I'm running cost me about $400.00 US, and you seem to know a lot about the high end cards, educate us, or me for that matter, what do you solidly reccomend, where and how do we aquire, and see specs on these cards, so we can check them out for ourselves.


Found references to M-Audios Revolution 7.1 PCI soundcard $119.95 + S&H, no big deal there but sounds apealing.
<A HREF="http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_pag..." target="_new">http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_pag...;/A>

And RME
<A HREF="http://www.rme-audio.de/english/index.htm" target="_new">http://www.rme-audio.de/english/index.htm&lt;/A>

But what about the Audiotrak?


Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 27, 2003 7:00:11 PM

Right but remember that this thread wasn't about comparing different pro-audio cards with each other or with consumer ones. We were just comparing our more down-to-earth sound cards and arguing about any problems, quality differences, tests we've done, etc. It's true that you won't probably experience real driving pleasure without driving a F360 Modena but one can still compare e.g. a Ford Mondeo and a VW Passat, no? I mean does the fact that a $400 sound card (or even a $200 one for that matter) beat the hell out of these ordinary budget solutions mean that we just have to quit comparing and ranting about the low-end stuff?

And no one here knows anything. You can educate us all you want and all you can :) 
February 27, 2003 7:17:21 PM

I think it's unwise to discount "compatibility" as some sort of secondary concern. If you're an aspiring musician or are really into mixing, maybe a high-end card is worth the money. Most people, however, want a card with a little broader range of features and compatibility and, yes, $400 is more than I would ever spend on a sound card. The only "Porsche's" I'll shell out that kind of money for are my processor and my 3D card. Hell, you'd need $400 speakers just to benefit from that kind of sound card, wouldn't you?



I want to move to space, so I can overclock processors cooled to absolute zero.
February 28, 2003 5:26:42 AM

Quote:
Companies like M-Audio, Audiotrak, and my favorite, RME

Where the hell am I supposed to find those cards in Alaska?

Plus, I built my computer for just over 400 bucks, why would I want a 400 dollar soundcard? I have a friggin' sterio system for that. You've obviously got too much money for you own good, gimme some. lol j/k

Water cooling is for the weak. Get liquid nitrogen.
February 28, 2003 1:24:11 PM

Quote:
Companies like M-Audio, Audiotrak, and my favorite, RME, will SLAUGHTER anything you have mentioned thus far, not only in features and capabilites, but in sheer sound quality and performance.

Well, most of the posters here are pretty avid gamers and these cards you mention are next to useless for gaming. While they certainly will have better sound quality for listening to music, I prefer to use my hi-fi system for that. Also, most of us don't use our PCs to record music. Overall these cards are nice for certain specialized activities but would be a horrible purchase for the average reader of this discussion group, who wants great performance in games and solid support for today's 3D audio APIs.

Ritesh
February 28, 2003 2:13:27 PM

Y'know, I keep wanting to post "Why not?" but I'm just not enough of a smart ass to do it :smile:


<b>(</b>It ain't better if it don't work.<b>)</b>
February 28, 2003 4:00:21 PM

Well since you jumped in and fanned the flames I've done some research for myself, the M-Audio Revolution 7.1 is probably the only PCI soundcard that would be suitable for gaming purposes also. Even though the specs are impressive, and the hardware is excellent, it seems from what I found out their software is their weak link, that sounds a lot like Creative to me. With its pricing at about $120.00, its a feasably priced soundcard, but actual users comments, and mainline reviews and comparisons seem to be hard to find. Your car comparison falls on deaf ears to those of us that miss the old US muscle car days, but alas gas prices are butt biters so I'll stick with my Mitsubishi Eclipse, and my trouble free Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. However I do not discount or close the door on the Revolution, and I will do further research on that card, however its nowhere to be found on the walk-in store market, and would have to be attained online.


" Yes, at first its OOHs and AAhs, then comes the running and screaming, and people dying" Jeff Goldblume, Jurassic Park 2.

<b>Still waiting to hear from you?</b>


Heres the link for anyone curious about the Revolution 7.1 PCI soundcard
<A HREF="http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_pag..." target="_new">http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_pag...;/A>


Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 28, 2003 4:04:03 PM

Copu usa has had them for atleast a month
February 28, 2003 4:08:10 PM

A whole month, thats encouraging!
Wow they're charging 20.00 less than factory.



Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
February 28, 2003 4:14:28 PM

That doesn't mean that some of us aren't interested in viable alternatives to the mainstream stuff.

I like to learn something new now and again.
February 28, 2003 4:15:28 PM

The Terratec Aureon 7.1 Space is also aimed at consumers who game. In fact its hardware is very similar to the revo.
February 28, 2003 6:27:51 PM

Quote:
Your car comparison falls on deaf ears to those of us that miss the old US muscle car days

Yeah, I could go for a 1969 Hemi GTX right about now. :) 

Water cooling is for the weak. Get liquid nitrogen.
March 1, 2003 1:57:28 AM

Yes! or an old SuperBee, with a 440Ci Hemi, w High Rise Intake, Six Pack Top Hat, Headers, Duals w Cherry/Bomb/Glasspacks a 4 speed Trick Shifter, and a 4/11 rear end, G-forces man, I miss those days, until I get to the gas pump, that was some impressive hardware, its a miracle I'm still alive.

Details, Details, Its all in the Details, If you need help, Don't leave out the Details.
March 1, 2003 4:08:58 AM

Audiotrak? Check here --> www.audiotrak.net

And no, you don't have to shell out a whole whack of money for a good card. The lower end Audiotrak cards cost less than an Audigy2, and IMO, are far finer sounding cards. If you don't have the speakers to keep up with even an Audigy, then why leave your SBLive? You won't notice the quality difference. Therefore, any arguments you bring would be relatively meaningless.

If you want the differences in quality, you have to spend the money. If you have radio shack speakers, get a radio shack card, not a Guillemot. If you have those Logitech Z-680's, or even the 560's, you may notice the difference between the live and the audigy, but not the audigy-audigy2. If you use quality home theatre components (not wal-mart brand, but H-Ks, or Sunfires), and have it tied to a nice set of speakers frrom, say, Athena, then you will hear and feel the difference between the audigy2 and something from RME. It's no contest. This argument is for those who have the hardware to notice the difference. I would expect some people out there have the hardware, and want to get the most from it. They will read this post and say, "Guillemot", but neglect this entire part of the market that would easily be more suited to their desires.

As they say, you gotta pay to play. I'm not advertising the Ferrari's of the market, but I am mentioning that you compare entry to entry, and there are a significant portion of you out there who want something a little more, and RME, Audiotrak, and M-Audio are it.
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