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Firewire vs. LAN - Firewire Loses

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Anonymous
February 3, 2005 9:54:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have a room full of the Mackie Onyx stuff here for evaluation, as
well as the Firewire option card. I don't have any computers modern
enough to have a Firewire port and the only computer I'm willing to
dig around inside, the studio computer, is a measly Pentium II 233
MHz, so I picked up a Firewire PCMCIA adapter for my laptop, a two
year old Dell Insprion 2650.

I'm not totally sold on it (it doesn't work with my Jukebox 3) but it
does work with the Onyx Firewire interface. When running tones thorugh
it, I noticed a hiccup, repeating about once per second. It even did
it just monitoring through the A/D and D/A converters (not recording)
so it wasn't an issue with a poorly tweaked computer. There's a
picture of one of those glitches showing what looks like a clock
missing a few beats at:

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id...

Anyhoo, after a day of fooling around, it occurred to me to disconnect
the cable from the laptop to my router, and the glitching went away. I
guess I should practice what I preach about not doing anything but
audio on an audio computer. But I know that it's pretty common
practice for computers to be networked in a large studio today, so
obviously this isn't totally off base.

I have no problems with either the internal sound card on the laptop
or my Digigram VX Pocket PCMCIA audio card when the network is
connected, just with the Onyx Firewire connected thorugh this Techgear
PCMCIA adapter. I'm curious as to what's to blame. Should I try a
different adapter? I don't really need for this to work, I'd just like
to have some idea of what's going on. And of course it begs the
proverbial Usenet question: "Does anyone else have this problem?"


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 9:54:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike,

Check in your control panel whether the two devices are using a shared
IRQ.

Best of Luck,

Evangelos


%
Evangelos Himonides
IoE, University of London
tel: +44 2076126599
fax: +44 2076126741

"Allas to those who never sing but die with all their music in them..."
Oliver Wendell Holmes
%
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 2:20:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

That's what the problem is likely to be then Mike. I would contact Dell
asking them for instructions to override these BIOS settings.
It would be nice to AT LEAST be able to change the priorities.
Have you also checked your windows device manager? there is a chance
that one of the two devices might be able to work on different settings
(if you uncheck the 'use automatic settings' in the resources page).

Hope you solve it!

Evangelos


%
Evangelos Himonides
IoE, University of London
tel: +44 2076126599
fax: +44 2076126741


"Allas to those who never sing but die with all their music ­in
them..."
Oliver Wendell Holmes
%
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Anonymous
February 3, 2005 2:25:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message news:znr1107397210k@trad...

> I have no problems with either the internal sound card on the laptop
> or my Digigram VX Pocket PCMCIA audio card when the network is
> connected, just with the Onyx Firewire connected thorugh this Techgear
> PCMCIA adapter. I'm curious as to what's to blame. Should I try a
> different adapter? I don't really need for this to work, I'd just like
> to have some idea of what's going on. And of course it begs the
> proverbial Usenet question: "Does anyone else have this problem?"

Hello, Mike.

After ten or fifteen minutes of Googling I find several sites point to the
O2Micro cardbus controller not being "industry standard" implementation and
causing a problem with some adapter cards. One fellow actually contacted 02Micro
and managed a patch from the engineer. I don't know if this is the root cause,
but I think it's at least worth a look:

http://www.scottlandon.com/o2micro/

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 3:13:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1107433571.521257.187430@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> himonides@gmail.com writes:

> Check in your control panel whether the two devices are using a shared
> IRQ.

That's too simple an explanation for me. I've looked for that sort of
information and I can't find it. Used to be that you could find it in
the CMOS setup, but this Dell laptop computer has the skimpiest CMOS
setup I've ever seen - no IRQ information at all. With the PCMCIA
Firewire adapter card installed and the Onyx Firewire audio interface
connected, looking in the Device Manager, I see:

For the Firewire PCMCIA card: PCI Bus 3, Device 0, Function 0

For the PCMCIA Cardbus Controller: PCI Bus 2, Device 4, Function 0

For the Network Adapter: PCI Bus 2, Device 1, Function 0

The fact that the PCMCIA Cardbus Controller and Network Adapter are
both on Bus 2, and that the Cardbus controller is Device 4 (if that
means it's lower on the priority scale than Device 1) might be a
little suspicious, but I see no way of changing any of those
parameters. I guess it's all part of Plug-and-Pray.

The FAQ for the Firewire PCMCIA adapter says that PCI Steering must be
enabled in order for it to work properly. I've seen that setting on
some computers, but I can't find it on this one.

Any expert ideas? Windows XP Home, SP1, if that matters, and it
probably does.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 3:13:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <1107433571.521257.187430@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> himonides@gmail.com writes:
>
>
>> Check in your control panel whether the two devices are using a
>> shared IRQ.
>
>
> That's too simple an explanation for me. I've looked for that sort of
> information and I can't find it. Used to be that you could find it in
> the CMOS setup, but this Dell laptop computer has the skimpiest CMOS
> setup I've ever seen - no IRQ information at all. With the PCMCIA
> Firewire adapter card installed and the Onyx Firewire audio interface
> connected, looking in the Device Manager, I see:
>
> For the Firewire PCMCIA card: PCI Bus 3, Device 0, Function 0
>
> For the PCMCIA Cardbus Controller: PCI Bus 2, Device 4, Function 0
>
> For the Network Adapter: PCI Bus 2, Device 1, Function 0

In Device Manager, pull down the View menu and choose "Resources by Type," then expand the IRQ tree.
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 6:15:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> I guess I should practice what I preach about not doing anything but audio
> on an audio computer. But I know that it's pretty common practice for
> computers to be networked in a large studio today, so obviously this isn't
> totally off base.

I recently did a small mix in Logic (Pro 6.4.1) while downloading a
fairly large file from the 'net. It worked. I was surprised.

--
ha
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 9:13:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <N7qdndILsMoJw5_fRVn-3w@giganews.com> john__leblanc@hotmail.com writes:

> After ten or fifteen minutes of Googling I find several sites point to the
> O2Micro cardbus controller not being "industry standard" implementation and
> causing a problem with some adapter cards. One fellow actually contacted
> 02Micro
> and managed a patch from the engineer.

Thanks for the digging, John. Yes, that's the cardbus controller that
my computer uses, and when I was trying to get the previous (Adaptec)
Firewire/USB card working, I got a new somethingorother from the Dell
web site to install. But it seemed (at least from its name) to be for
USB2 rather than Firewire. That, plus the BIOS (which Adaptec tech
support also suggested flashing) are all the updates available for the
computer. The update file I have is the one that's linked on the
ScottLandon.com web page.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 9:13:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1107458400.069058.297830@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> himonides@gmail.com writes:

> That's what the problem is likely to be then Mike. I would contact Dell
> asking them for instructions to override these BIOS settings.
> It would be nice to AT LEAST be able to change the priorities.
> Have you also checked your windows device manager? there is a chance
> that one of the two devices might be able to work on different settings
> (if you uncheck the 'use automatic settings' in the resources page).

Neither the Firewire adapter nor the network card will allow me to
uncheck the "Use automatic settings" box. But both say there are no
conflicts.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 9:13:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <36fe79F4vvepiU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:

> In Device Manager, pull down the View menu and choose "Resources by Type," then
> expand the IRQ tree.

OK - The network controller, Cardbus controller, and 1394 controller
are all (PCI)9, together with practically everything else but the disk
drives, keyboard, mouse, and clock. But I can't find a way to change
anything. The "Change Settings" button in the Resources panel is
grayed out, and I can't uncheck the "Use automatic settings" box.

According to the Dell knowledge base, IRQ9 is used for PCI bus steering,
so maybe what should be turned on is. I don't think I want to go through the
process of re-installing the operating system without ACPI. (which may be
why the interrupt settings don't show up in the BIOS CMOS setup.

This probably is probably well beyond my diagnostic capabilities. I don't
want to do anything I can't easily recover from, just to use a feature I
don't need on somebody else's mixer. <g>


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 9:13:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <36fe79F4vvepiU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:
>
>
>> In Device Manager, pull down the View menu and choose "Resources by Type," then
>> expand the IRQ tree.
>
>
> OK - The network controller, Cardbus controller, and 1394 controller
> are all (PCI)9, together with practically everything else but the disk
> drives, keyboard, mouse, and clock. But I can't find a way to change
> anything. The "Change Settings" button in the Resources panel is
> grayed out, and I can't uncheck the "Use automatic settings" box.
>
> According to the Dell knowledge base, IRQ9 is used for PCI bus steering,
> so maybe what should be turned on is. I don't think I want to go through the
> process of re-installing the operating system without ACPI. (which may be
> why the interrupt settings don't show up in the BIOS CMOS setup.

Do you seen any IRQs >15?

What chipset is in the laptop?
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 9:13:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message news:znr1107463146k@trad...

> This probably is probably well beyond my diagnostic capabilities. I don't
> want to do anything I can't easily recover from, just to use a feature I
> don't need on somebody else's mixer. <g>

Where's your sense of adventure, man?!

One way around this is to use the Device Manager and disable the netcard in that
profile. That'll take it out of the loop, and it's as easy to restore it. Worth
a try I'd think and probably the least destructive way to rule that out.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 10:11:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Feb 2005 06:54:08 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>
>I have a room full of the Mackie Onyx stuff here for evaluation, as
>well as the Firewire option card. I don't have any computers modern
>enough to have a Firewire port and the only computer I'm willing to
>dig around inside, the studio computer, is a measly Pentium II 233
>MHz, so I picked up a Firewire PCMCIA adapter for my laptop, a two
>year old Dell Insprion 2650.
>
>I'm not totally sold on it (it doesn't work with my Jukebox 3) but it
>does work with the Onyx Firewire interface. When running tones thorugh
>it, I noticed a hiccup, repeating about once per second. It even did
>it just monitoring through the A/D and D/A converters (not recording)
>so it wasn't an issue with a poorly tweaked computer. There's a
>picture of one of those glitches showing what looks like a clock
>missing a few beats at:
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id...
>
>Anyhoo, after a day of fooling around, it occurred to me to disconnect
>the cable from the laptop to my router, and the glitching went away. I
>guess I should practice what I preach about not doing anything but
>audio on an audio computer. But I know that it's pretty common
>practice for computers to be networked in a large studio today, so
>obviously this isn't totally off base.
>
>I have no problems with either the internal sound card on the laptop
>or my Digigram VX Pocket PCMCIA audio card when the network is
>connected, just with the Onyx Firewire connected thorugh this Techgear
>PCMCIA adapter. I'm curious as to what's to blame. Should I try a
>different adapter? I don't really need for this to work, I'd just like
>to have some idea of what's going on. And of course it begs the
>proverbial Usenet question: "Does anyone else have this problem?"

I've been investigating a possible firewire application and recall in
the fine print from either RME or Edirol (can't recall) that the other
end (laptop in your case) needs to have a Texas Instruments 1394
implement and further went onto say that if you've a native 1394 (on
your laptop) or one hanging off of it (i.e. PCMIA?) to go with the
native 1394. All of this is simply from memory.

Can you open up your Techgear PCMIA adapter and take a gander to see
if it has a TI chip in it? Who knows, it could be a VIA! <ducking
and running>

Wishing myself for a laptop with a 6 pin 1394B...

Best,
Andy

>I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
>However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
>lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
>you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
>and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 10:11:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Andy Eng wrote:
>
> Wishing myself for a laptop with a 6 pin 1394B...

Powerbooks have this.
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 10:11:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Kurt Albershardt wrote:
> Andy Eng wrote:
> >
> > Wishing myself for a laptop with a 6 pin 1394B...
>
> Powerbooks have this.

ibooks do too

dale
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 10:11:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <4202763c.18821563@News.Individual.NET> nospamaeng@houston.rr.com writes:

> Can you open up your Techgear PCMIA adapter and take a gander to see
> if it has a TI chip in it?

I'd better not, considering that I'm planning to return it, but the
Device Manager identifies it as a TI 1394 adapter, so I guess that
means Texas Instruments.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 10:11:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

firewire data transmission standards are set for 3.2 gig,
the first implementation is 400 meg now is 800 meg on the current
apple.

mike get a powerbook 17"
the new ones have extra hd protection.

dale
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 10:12:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike:

Have a look at the RME web site for help, their tech support types seem to
have done the more research than others.....

Apparently there are some problems with firewire chips other than TI and
even with theirs some of the card manufacturers choose the wrong supply
voltages.

I addition there is a "upgrade" from Microsoft which is part of XP SP2 that
downgrades the speed from 400mbps to 100.... the RME site tells how to
remove it.

Regards:
Eric
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 12:49:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <4202763c.18821563@News.Individual.NET>
nospamaeng@houston.rr.com writes:
>
> > Can you open up your Techgear PCMIA adapter and take a gander to
see
> > if it has a TI chip in it?
>
> I'd better not, considering that I'm planning to return it, but the
> Device Manager identifies it as a TI 1394 adapter, so I guess that
> means Texas Instruments.

And you were wondering Mike, why the Metric Halo Mobile I/O
Firewire devices only support Macs? <g>

Ok, sorry.

Anyway, maybe try a different cable? The Firewire Audio Devices I
have used seem to be quite sensitive to the Firewire Cable's quality,
which is why Metric Halo provides a good one with their boxes. The
Tascam DM24 Mixer can have problems with switching/operating at 48k
with their Firewire card/DAW connection if the cable exceeds 7 feet,
but at 44.1 some guys run really long cables.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News Channel / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 2:53:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Feb 2005 18:13:30 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>OK - The network controller, Cardbus controller, and 1394 controller
>are all (PCI)9, together with practically everything else but the disk
>drives, keyboard, mouse, and clock. But I can't find a way to change
>anything. The "Change Settings" button in the Resources panel is
>grayed out, and I can't uncheck the "Use automatic settings" box.
>
>According to the Dell knowledge base, IRQ9 is used for PCI bus steering,
>so maybe what should be turned on is.

You should wait for Kurt's verification, but I think this is the
way the modern Windii manage things. Instead of BIOS calls, the OS
itself schedules priorities. I think.

I'd love to know if ordinary civilians could manipulate the order.
Just, you know, in case.

Chris Hornbeck
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 2:53:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
news:c3e501haq9ajdkf6k2unr7ip6a7lnh62ue@4ax.com...

> I'd love to know if ordinary civilians could manipulate the order.
> Just, you know, in case.

I think the idea is to "protect" the "little people" from this sort of thing. (I
think it comes with an invisible pat on our pointy little heads, too.)

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 2:53:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
>
> I think this is the
> way the modern Windii manage things.

If his chipset has an APIC, XP should enumerate all the higher IRQs. Otherwise, it behaves like NT/XP--making them all look like IRQ9.
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 3:55:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:48:03 -0600, "John_LeBlanc"
<john__leblanc@hotmail.com> wrote:

>One way around this is to use the Device Manager and disable the netcard in that
>profile. That'll take it out of the loop, and it's as easy to restore it. Worth
>a try I'd think and probably the least destructive way to rule that out.

You're no fun. If you come up with a practical workaround the
very evening the topic comes up, how can we be expected to
move seemlessly into digital-vs-analog or WD40 or something
else important?

To quote somebody ">Where's your sense of adventure, man?!"
Arf.

Chris Hornbeck
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 6:46:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

and the mac firewire works with out all this BS

quality in, quality out


there is no such thing as a free lunch

dale
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 9:37:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1107472465.846554.301900@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> dallen@frognet.net writes:

> mike get a powerbook 17"

Sure thing. Send me one.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 9:37:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3I2dnVjlO8T-JZ_fRVn-3g@giganews.com> john__leblanc@hotmail.com writes:

> One way around this is to use the Device Manager and disable the netcard in
> that
> profile. That'll take it out of the loop, and it's as easy to restore it.

Why bother with hardware profiels? All I need to do is disconnect the
cable, and with a cable dangling, I'm likely to realize why the
network isn't working when I want it to. Don't even have to reboot.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 9:37:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <36frebF521g3uU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:

> Do you seen any IRQs >15?

15 is as high as they go.

> What chipset is in the laptop?

Dunno, other than P4 CPU.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 11:34:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Kurt Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> wrote in message
news:36frebF521g3uU1@individual.net...

> What chipset is in the laptop?

Intel i865 -- first thing I looked for. (Actually, what I looked for were the
letters "V", "I" and "A" juxtaposed.)

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 12:50:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <36frebF521g3uU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:
>
>> Do you seen any IRQs >15?
>
> 15 is as high as they go.

There's your problem.




>> What chipset is in the laptop?
>
> Dunno, other than P4 CPU.

If you expand the "System Devices" tab in Device Manager there will be an item called "Programmable interrupt controller." Open it up and see what it is.
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 2:07:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> I have only one Firewire cable, the one that came with the Mackie
> package. I doubt this is the problem.

Figured that, and I imagine you have tried adjusting the cache in
your software app too. But I had to at least *try* be helpful after
making the Macintosh comment.. <g>

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News Channel / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 3:15:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1107496158.788998.38500@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> willstg@aol.com writes:

> Anyway, maybe try a different cable? The Firewire Audio Devices I
> have used seem to be quite sensitive to the Firewire Cable's quality,

I have only one Firewire cable, the one that came with the Mackie
package. I doubt this is the problem.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 3:18:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:50:04 -0800, Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net>
wrote:

>Mike Rivers wrote:
>> In article <36frebF521g3uU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:
>>
>>> Do you seen any IRQs >15?
>>
>> 15 is as high as they go.
>
>There's your problem.

The "IRQ conflict" mystique certainly dies hard. It has been
irrelevant ever since the ISA bus gave way to PCI. All modern
notebooks use the PCI architecture even if they don't have visible PCI
slots. Cardbus is a PCI interface with a different connector. Of
course, if you call for tech support and they have no better clue,
they can wear you down until you give up and go away by mucking about
checking IRQs that you can't change...

My little Gateway Tablet PC has its display, hard drive, and Firewire
all on the same PCI IRQ, and it can simultaneously capture DV video
from Firewire, display it in full resolution, and save it to the hard
drive without missing a beat. That's two channels of 48/16 PCM, plus
video data equal to several more.

If a network connection is interfering with audio, something other
than IRQ settings is at fault. The first thing to check is power
management settings (turn it completely off while recording). Second
thing would be UPNP - "universal Plug and Play" - which can create
odd, periodic network loads. In XP it is a service - disable it.

If you still see network interference, get a packet sniffer (my
favorite is Packetyzer
<www.networkchemistry.com/products/packetyzer/&gt;) and find out what the
network is doing when it glitches your audio.

Loren
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 3:28:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Loren Amelang wrote:
>
> The "IRQ conflict" mystique certainly dies hard. It has been
> irrelevant ever since the ISA bus gave way to PCI.

We're going to have to disagree on this one.


> If a network connection is interfering with audio, something other
> than IRQ settings is at fault.

Personal experience (and that of many others using high performance low latency audio) begs to disagree.
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 9:18:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <36hqufF52ms9cU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:

> If you expand the "System Devices" tab in Device Manager there will be an item
> called "Programmable interrupt controller." Open it up and see what it is.

"on Intel(R) 82801 CAM LPC Interface controller-2"





--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 9:18:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <uik7011nutqa7od0tf24rkijr9hm7pkn1p@4ax.com> loren@pacific.net writes:

> If a network connection is interfering with audio, something other
> than IRQ settings is at fault. The first thing to check is power
> management settings (turn it completely off while recording). Second
> thing would be UPNP - "universal Plug and Play" - which can create
> odd, periodic network loads. In XP it is a service - disable it.

I have that set for Manual and it doesn't say it's started. Probably
got that off one of those XP-for-audio-tweaks web sites.

>
> If you still see network interference, get a packet sniffer (my
> favorite is Packetyzer

I wouldn't have the slightest idea of what to do with it, but thanks
anyway.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 4, 2005 9:18:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <36hqufF52ms9cU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:
>
>
>> If you expand the "System Devices" tab in Device Manager there will be an item
>> called "Programmable interrupt controller." Open it up and see what it is.
>
>
> "on Intel(R) 82801 CAM LPC Interface controller-2"

Pretty sure that's an ICH2, which is rather long in the tooth now (was last used in desktops with the i815 IIRC.) Later revisions did have an APIC but there was a glue logic chip required on the motherboard in order to make it useful.
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 12:50:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

is the laptop sharing an IRQ between LAN port and Firewire port?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 12:50:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <afr701djf4bdc3e5f83t7a7mo8hstksvjg@4ax.com> l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk writes:

> is the laptop sharing an IRQ between LAN port and Firewire port?

I posted all I knew how to find about IRQs. You tell me. Then I see you saw
the post.

Micro Center has an Adaptec PCMCIA-Firewire adapter on sale for $10 less than I
paid for this one. Maybe I'll pick one of those up and see if it behaves the same
way with/without the network connected. The first card I tried was also an Adaptec
but a combo USB2/Firewire and I never go the USB port working. I never tried
the Firewire with the Onyx but at least the Firewire port seemed to the Jukebox 3
which this Techgear card doesn't. So if the Adaptec doesn't work any worse, I
might keep that, return the Techgear card, and save a few bucks. And if it doesn't
work, I'll have to risk Micro Center kicking me out for returning too much stuff.

(I read that some stores do that now - refuse to take returns if they think you've
returned too many purchases in a given time period.)


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 12:56:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Feb 2005 12:13:13 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>That's too simple an explanation for me. I've looked for that sort of
>information and I can't find it. Used to be that you could find it in
>the CMOS setup, but this Dell laptop computer has the skimpiest CMOS
>setup I've ever seen - no IRQ information at all. With the PCMCIA
>Firewire adapter card installed and the Onyx Firewire audio interface
>connected, looking in the Device Manager, I see:

You can reserve an IRQ for a non plug-and-play device in BIOS setup.
This is not really applicable to a laptop machine.

>
>For the Firewire PCMCIA card: PCI Bus 3, Device 0, Function 0
>
>For the PCMCIA Cardbus Controller: PCI Bus 2, Device 4, Function 0
>
>For the Network Adapter: PCI Bus 2, Device 1, Function 0
>
>The fact that the PCMCIA Cardbus Controller and Network Adapter are
>both on Bus 2, and that the Cardbus controller is Device 4 (if that
>means it's lower on the priority scale than Device 1) might be a
>little suspicious, but I see no way of changing any of those
>parameters. I guess it's all part of Plug-and-Pray.
>
>The FAQ for the Firewire PCMCIA adapter says that PCI Steering must be
>enabled in order for it to work properly. I've seen that setting on
>some computers, but I can't find it on this one.

You'd have a job to turn it off :-)

>
>Any expert ideas? Windows XP Home, SP1, if that matters, and it
>probably does.

You'll find your IRQ allocations in Device Manager. In the View menu,
select Resources By Type (or By Connection). In the IRQ section
you'll probably find all sorts of stuff piled up on IRQ9. You're
right, there's little you can do about it.

Luckily you have found the solution. Don't use Firewire and network
together.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 1:00:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Feb 2005 18:13:29 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>Neither the Firewire adapter nor the network card will allow me to
>uncheck the "Use automatic settings" box. But both say there are no
>conflicts.

There IS no conflict as far as Windows is concerned. Both devices
are designed to use IRQ sharing, and are happily doing so. The
problem is that a shared IRQ is often unsatisfactory for devices
requiring real-time in/output. You get glitching. As you have
discovered.

Another Firewire card, or even on-board Firewire would very likely
have exactly the same problem. It's one of the reasons laptops are
problematic for audio recording.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 1:01:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Feb 2005 18:13:30 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>According to the Dell knowledge base, IRQ9 is used for PCI bus steering,
>so maybe what should be turned on is. I don't think I want to go through the
>process of re-installing the operating system without ACPI. (which may be
>why the interrupt settings don't show up in the BIOS CMOS setup.

Don't do that on a laptop.

ACPI (or not) happens when Windows loads. You're well past BIOS
setup by then. No new settings will magically appear.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 1:06:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:18:44 -0800, Loren Amelang <loren@pacific.net>
wrote:

>The "IRQ conflict" mystique certainly dies hard. It has been
>irrelevant ever since the ISA bus gave way to PCI. All modern
>notebooks use the PCI architecture even if they don't have visible PCI
>slots. Cardbus is a PCI interface with a different connector. Of
>course, if you call for tech support and they have no better clue,
>they can wear you down until you give up and go away by mucking about
>checking IRQs that you can't change...

OK, you can't change IRQ allocation directly. You can, on a
desktop, sometimes cure these problems by putting pci cards in
different slots. But this is a laptop.

You can argue all you like that IRQ sharing is merely a nominal term
and it makes no difference. But it does, as many audio users have
proved experimentally.

Anyway, we're losing sight of the fact that this is a non-problem.
When using Firewire audio, pull the network plug. Sorted.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 1:29:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Feb 2005 13:10:47 -0800, "dale" <dallen@frognet.net> wrote:

>
>Kurt Albershardt wrote:
>> Andy Eng wrote:
>> >
>> > Wishing myself for a laptop with a 6 pin 1394B...
>>
>> Powerbooks have this.
>
>ibooks do too

Rub it in... :-)
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 9:53:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <36ildvF5369auU1@individual.net> kurt@nv.net writes:

> Pretty sure that's an ICH2, which is rather long in the tooth now (was last
> used in desktops with the i815 IIRC.) Later revisions did have an APIC but
> there was a glue logic chip required on the motherboard in order to make it
> useful.

Huh???? So, loosely translated, does that mean: "Give it up. You can't
fix it."?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 8:57:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Huh???? So, loosely translated, does that mean: "Give it up. You can't
> fix it."?

Tell ya what, call the gal who's having trouble with her Mac laptop and
the NJBIII and invite her over. See how long it takes to get that Mac
working with Firewire. <g> Then trade her an Onyx for the NJB.

--
ha
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 8:57:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1gri8y5.pfujkzuupfpcN%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

> Tell ya what, call the gal who's having trouble with her Mac laptop and
> the NJBIII and invite her over. See how long it takes to get that Mac
> working with Firewire. <g> Then trade her an Onyx for the NJB.

But I don't need another Jukebox. Funny about the Jukebox - whenever I
plug it in to the Firewire card (and I still can't get the program to
recognize that the Jukebox is connected), it causes the Jukebox to
rebuild its music library. After exposing it to the Firewire card (or
probably more accurately, letting the program think that it's
connected through Firewire and not finding it), when I connect it to
the USB port, it won't be recognized until I unplug it, and the flash
card reader which is connected to the second USB port, then re-connect
the Jukebox.

Stuff that works with cards that are permanently attached to the
computer works much better.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 12:59:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike, bring the damned thing over and I'll take a look at it. I see lots of
pot shots about what's wrong, but my guess wouldn't be worth squat unless I
can see what the computer thinks. You can bring along an Onyx too, so we
can make certain it all works together.

Give me a call or drop me an email. I don't have the East Coast Jazz
Festival anymore, so I'm somewhat available for the next couple of weeks
when I normally wouldn't be.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1107559455k@trad...
>
> In article <afr701djf4bdc3e5f83t7a7mo8hstksvjg@4ax.com>
l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk writes:
>
> > is the laptop sharing an IRQ between LAN port and Firewire port?
>
> I posted all I knew how to find about IRQs. You tell me. Then I see you
saw
> the post.
>
> Micro Center has an Adaptec PCMCIA-Firewire adapter on sale for $10 less
than I
> paid for this one. Maybe I'll pick one of those up and see if it behaves
the same
> way with/without the network connected. The first card I tried was also an
Adaptec
> but a combo USB2/Firewire and I never go the USB port working. I never
tried
> the Firewire with the Onyx but at least the Firewire port seemed to the
Jukebox 3
> which this Techgear card doesn't. So if the Adaptec doesn't work any
worse, I
> might keep that, return the Techgear card, and save a few bucks. And if it
doesn't
> work, I'll have to risk Micro Center kicking me out for returning too much
stuff.
>
> (I read that some stores do that now - refuse to take returns if they
think you've
> returned too many purchases in a given time period.)
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 5:22:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:28:33 -0800, Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net>
wrote:

>Loren Amelang wrote:
>>
>> The "IRQ conflict" mystique certainly dies hard. It has been
>> irrelevant ever since the ISA bus gave way to PCI.
>
>We're going to have to disagree on this one.
>
>
>> If a network connection is interfering with audio, something other
>> than IRQ settings is at fault.
>
>Personal experience (and that of many others using high performance low latency audio) begs to disagree.

Kurt,

The only times I've seen "IRQ conflict" issues with PCI were when
"real-time" operating system extensions were involved. Even then,
there were no problems with sharing IRQs among boards controlled only
by Windows, and no problems sharing among boards controlled only by
the RTOS. The problems were that the RTOS could not share any IRQs
with Windows.

Could it be that the "drivers" for some of your "high performance low
latency audio" devices were actually bypassing Windows' IRQ routing
and installing their own "real-time" OS extensions? In that case I
would definitely expect conflicts...

Loren
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 6:33:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Loren Amelang wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:28:33 -0800, Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Loren Amelang wrote:
>>
>>> The "IRQ conflict" mystique certainly dies hard. It has been
>>> irrelevant ever since the ISA bus gave way to PCI.
>>
>> We're going to have to disagree on this one.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If a network connection is interfering with audio, something other
>>> than IRQ settings is at fault.
>>
>> Personal experience (and that of many others using high performance low latency audio) begs to disagree.
>
>
> The only times I've seen "IRQ conflict" issues with PCI were when
> "real-time" operating system extensions were involved. Even then,
> there were no problems with sharing IRQs among boards controlled only
> by Windows, and no problems sharing among boards controlled only by
> the RTOS. The problems were that the RTOS could not share any IRQs
> with Windows.
>
> Could it be that the "drivers" for some of your "high performance low
> latency audio" devices were actually bypassing Windows' IRQ routing
> and installing their own "real-time" OS extensions? In that case I
> would definitely expect conflicts...

No, they're not that sophisticated. However, both ASIO and WDM hook into the kernel at a fairly low level, demanding very high priority. When you stream a bunch of channels in/out, it doesn't take much disruption to cause a pop or glitch.

The whole IRQ system depends on time-slicing, and low-latency multichannel audio is something the chipset designers don't really consider. Thankfully, the shared bus architecture seems finally to be on its way out--so much of this may soon be just a bad memory.
!