Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

saliva slapping vocals

Last response: in Home Audio
Share
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 9:00:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hi all,

i want to record a pretty breathy vocal, almost whispered but with a
slight croak. im using a samson condenser mic with a popstopper and
standing pretty close as i dont want a more distant sound.

i know mic's are there to pick up whatever they're hearing... but i've
got this almost unnatural 'saliva slapping' (eewwwww, u know the type)
sound.

does anyone have any tips for cleaning this up a bit? or maybe
something i can use when recording to dampen it? (other than putting
rags in my mouth ;-P)

cheers

Luke

More about : saliva slapping vocals

Anonymous
February 10, 2005 9:35:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hi Hev,

thats the kinda golddust im looking for!! thanks, will try it :) 

Luke
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 12:22:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"LuKeNuKuM" <lukenukum@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108044058.504372.298060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> hi all,
>
> i want to record a pretty breathy vocal, almost whispered but with a
> slight croak. im using a samson condenser mic with a popstopper and
> standing pretty close as i dont want a more distant sound.
>
> i know mic's are there to pick up whatever they're hearing... but i've
> got this almost unnatural 'saliva slapping' (eewwwww, u know the type)
> sound.
>
> does anyone have any tips for cleaning this up a bit? or maybe
> something i can use when recording to dampen it? (other than putting
> rags in my mouth ;-P)
>
> cheers
>
> Luke

Many performers believe that eating an apple reduces saliva production
temporarily. Worth a try.

Steve King
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 12:30:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"LuKeNuKuM" <lukenukum@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108044058.504372.298060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> hi all,
>
> i want to record a pretty breathy vocal, almost whispered but with a
> slight croak. im using a samson condenser mic with a popstopper and
> standing pretty close as i dont want a more distant sound.
>
> i know mic's are there to pick up whatever they're hearing... but i've
> got this almost unnatural 'saliva slapping' (eewwwww, u know the type)
> sound.
>
> does anyone have any tips for cleaning this up a bit? or maybe
> something i can use when recording to dampen it? (other than putting
> rags in my mouth ;-P)



Drink some orange juice when recording. Not a joke... give it a try. The
acidic quality of OJ neutralizes the mouth or something to that extent. I
think voice over folks use this trick if I'm not mistaken.

--

-Hev
remove your opinion to find me here:
www.michaelYOURspringerOPINION.com
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=14089013
February 10, 2005 4:53:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If you have a DAW with waveform redraw (pencil) tools, just zoom in on
the waveform where you hear the sounds and "draw" them out. They will
appear as little jagged peaks on otherwise relatively smooth waveforms.
Just be careful not to erase t's and s's.
It's time-consuming, but with practice it's also very effective.
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 5:12:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hi Steve,

> Many performers believe that eating an apple reduces saliva production
> temporarily. Worth a try.

guess thats up there with orange juice plan... thanks for the tip!

Luke
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 5:35:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"LuKeNuKuM" <lukenukum@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108044058.504372.298060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> hi all,
>
> i want to record a pretty breathy vocal, almost whispered but with a
> slight croak. im using a samson condenser mic with a popstopper and
> standing pretty close as i dont want a more distant sound.
>
> i know mic's are there to pick up whatever they're hearing... but i've
> got this almost unnatural 'saliva slapping' (eewwwww, u know the type)
> sound.
>
> does anyone have any tips for cleaning this up a bit? or maybe
> something i can use when recording to dampen it? (other than putting
> rags in my mouth ;-P)

'Coupla things:

a.) Try going off-axis a bit to one side or the other & see if that helps.
b.) Are you using compression? If so, back off some.
c.) Are you using EQ before it hits the recorder? Again, if so, back off of
it, or disengage it altogether & compare results.

Neil Henderson
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 5:35:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hi Neil,

> a.) Try going off-axis a bit to one side or the other & see if that helps.
> b.) Are you using compression? If so, back off some.
> c.) Are you using EQ before it hits the recorder? Again, if so, back off of
> it, or disengage it altogether & compare results.

a) haven't tried , will do.
b) a little, but only afterward - i like the breathy emphasis, shame
about the inherent saliva!
c) no eq one way in.

thanks for the tips!

Luke
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 6:30:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

dougk@musician.org wrote:

> If you have a DAW with waveform redraw (pencil) tools, just zoom in on
> the waveform where you hear the sounds and "draw" them out. They will
> appear as little jagged peaks on otherwise relatively smooth waveforms.
> Just be careful not to erase t's and s's.
> It's time-consuming, but with practice it's also very effective.


I had to remove the, ahhh, "nasal and glottal artifacts" from a
spoken-word CD, where the talent had a cold. The good side was that
there were no sync issues so I could delete tiny bits IF they weren't
mid-word (not enough to mess up the phrasing, it was poetry). The bad
side was that there was absolutely nothing to cover them. I removed
thousands, each one different. Snot can be really creative.

You can reduce the gain on a click, use a pencil if you have to, and use
EQ creatively - no one will notice two milliseconds of high-cut filter
if you're careful. You may be able to replace a piece of a cycle of a
wave with a similar one from nearby, like the next or previous cycle; be
sure the cut and copied segments are the same number of samples.
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 8:30:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"LuKeNuKuM" <lukenukum@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108046144.828835.136560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> hi Hev,
>
> thats the kinda golddust im looking for!! thanks, will try it :) 
>
> Luke


No problem. Let me know if it does the trick.

--

-Hev
remove your opinion to find me here:
www.michaelYOURspringerOPINION.com
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=14089013
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 9:33:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 10 Feb 2005 06:00:58 -0800, "LuKeNuKuM" <lukenukum@gmail.com>
wrote:

>hi all,

>does anyone have any tips for cleaning this up a bit? or maybe
>something i can use when recording to dampen it? (other than putting
>rags in my mouth ;-P)

Drink room temperature water before the session, as well as during.

jtougas

listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go

e.e. cummings
February 11, 2005 2:32:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Just put the dentures back in there...

Toby

"LuKeNuKuM" <lukenukum@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108044058.504372.298060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> hi all,
>
> i want to record a pretty breathy vocal, almost whispered but with a
> slight croak. im using a samson condenser mic with a popstopper and
> standing pretty close as i dont want a more distant sound.
>
> i know mic's are there to pick up whatever they're hearing... but i've
> got this almost unnatural 'saliva slapping' (eewwwww, u know the type)
> sound.
>
> does anyone have any tips for cleaning this up a bit? or maybe
> something i can use when recording to dampen it? (other than putting
> rags in my mouth ;-P)
>
> cheers
>
> Luke
>
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 3:08:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Just put the dentures back in there...

hahaha, i knew there was something i was missing :-O

Luke
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 3:11:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

interesting, im glad i've not got a cold at the moment! :)  i'll have a
play with the pencil tool aswell - i've not used that before.

thanks.
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 3:16:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hi Ricky,

> Most of those noises are only noticeable when you are not actually
> vocalizing but opening your mouth to or in between, etc.

yes, it does seem to be at the times you mention more - which i guess
is what makes it stand out so much.

theres not much other than a loose piano going on in the background for
the most part so its not very hidden. using the envelopes might be
possible on the beginning/end problem wavs.

cheers,

Luke
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 12:53:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Producing Lead Vocals


There are many types of singing and various methods of recording vocals
from classical, crooning, rock etc. You will discover that you need to
develop personal styles and techniques of capturing and enhancing their
performance.

As a producer or engineer you need to know what is required of your
talents to effectively fulfill your role in capturing a good take and
sound.

Listening to various successful recordings will provide you with not
only a reference point but also with a framework to further enhance
your goals and objectives in capturing a solid quality performance.
Audition some CDs of vocalist's sounds that can be related to what
you require. On a reference monitoring system, this should give you a
starting point in where to go with equalization, processing, and
balance in a mix.

You will require a good quality microphone (condenser), a preamp (that
can amplify a very dynamic performance and maintain a quiet noise
floor), a versatile equalizer and a transparent compressor/limiter.

Because recording vocals is often a sensitive and emotional issue for
singers, it is a good idea to consistently give the singer positive
feedback of words of accomplishment and encouragement.


Microphones

For most vocalists a high quality large diaphragm condenser microphone
is often the choice. If you have access to a tube mic, even better. The
tube mic will sound warmer and if there is any distortion, it will be
less offensive to the ear. U-47, AT3035, C-12, M-49, C-4000B are often
found in better studios and work remarkably well. U-87, AKG 414 and
Rhode mics will be found in about every studio and often work quite
well. The U-87 will have an even frequency response, where the 414 will
accentuate the high end. If recording a rock vocalist try a Shure
SM-57. You will get an enhanced mid-range sound with no
distortion.Ribbon mics like the RCA models are very good but most have
a high noise floor.

When recording bed tracks, change the mic from song to song to get a
general idea of which mic sounds the best. Also when ready to record
final vocals, line up 3-4 mics and quickly have the vocalist go from
one to the other to see which mic is the most desirable. Remember to
check all the dynamic parts of the song; certain mics sound good in
verses but might be to thin sounding in the choruses.

Microphone placement

For a lead vocal place the mic around 3"-6" from the singer. A pop
filter may be required. In choosing a pop filter, make sure it stops a
lot of wind transmission (blow at the filter and place your hand on the
other side to check) and does not affect the frequency response too
much. (Place the pop filter between your ear and a speaker and move it
in and out of the way and listen for any sound degradation). Place the
pop filter as close to microphone as possible for vocalist's do not
like singing close to a pop filter. If the singer is too bassy from the
proximity effect, either change the pattern from cardiod to omni,
insert a high pass filter or simply have the singer stand a couple of
inches further back from the mic. Take note that when a vocalist is
moving back and forth from the mic in an area from 1"-3", the low
end will drastically change and become very hard to control. Make sure
the microphone is suspended in a cradle to remove or to prevent
unwanted rumble coming through the mic stand. Make sure the acoustics
of the room do not influence the desired vocal sound, which occurs when
the vocalist stands too far back from the microphone. If the room is
too live try to have the singer move in closer to the mic or dampen the
room with blankets or baffles usually close to the singer. If there is
a music stand involved for the singer to read lyrics make sure it is
dampened down and the stand doesn't ring sympathetically with the
vocal performance.

Creating The Right Environment

Before recording vocals, ask the singer what they need to feel
comfortable in the studio when recording. Remember singing is an
emotional and mental experience, so having the singer feeling relaxed
is very critical. Try to set up baffles covered in quilts and blankets
close to the vocalist, this makes the studio seem more comfortable and
helps reduce the room acoustics in the sound of the singer. Keep the
lighting tapered with a lamp or candles. You might need a small lamp to
place on the music stand so the lyrics will be seen easily. Have a
comfortable chair and table to place things on and a pitcher of water
and a glass for vocalist's throats dry up quickly. Make sure there
are pencils on the music stand for singers have a habit of changing
lyrics at the last minute. Also place them in an area of the studio
that they will be in a position to not have to look at the control room
all the time. Standing in the middle of a big studio with bright
lighting and people staring at you can be very intimidating for a
vocalist, so creating a very comfortable and relaxed environment is
very important.

Equalization

Male Vocalist:
High pass filter at 50hz
Low end 100hz-200hz
Low mids 400hz-800hz; med "Q"
Mid range 3khz-5khz
Top end 10khz and up

Female Vocalist:
High Pass filter at 80hz
Low end 200hz-300hz
Lo mids 400hz-800hz
Mid range 3khz-5khz
Top end 10khz and up

Limiting and Compression

A good vocalist will work with mic distance in relationship to
dynamics. During soft and loud passages they will intuitively move back
and forth from the mic. This will lower the effect of the dynamic
control function and maintain a high quality sound. However, when
starting out as an engineer or producer you will most likely not have
this luxury or feel intimidated to solicit advice to the vocalist. Even
with a good microphone and good mic preamp, recording vocalists can be
a major problem if various processing is inserted in the wrong
sequence. For example: if you insert a compressor or limiter with too
slow of an attack time what ends up happening is the dynamics of the
vocal performance expands. This is caused by too slow of an attack time
on your comp/limiter whereby the initial transient passes through the
comp/limiter unaffected and the remaining vocal dynamic is affected. If
inserting EQ that enhances the mid range or high end, before this type
of setting on the comp limiter it will exacerbate the problem even
further. You could also introduce sibilance problems into the sound. To
play it safe I would suggest this technique:

First limit the vocal with a quick attack and quick release time - this
will allow you to manage the transients of the vocal. This will make
the vocal more suitable for compression, if desired. Do not EQ the
vocal before limiting. Insert the EQ directly after limiting but before
compressing. With compression the limited vocal will allow you to use a
medium to slow attack time and medium to slow release time. This
affectively compresses the tonality or vowel sounds of the vocal, which
often require level management. A ratio of 2:1 to 4:1 should suffice.
An attack time between 25-100 ms and a release time of 200-500 ms, or
better yet use your ears to get the right attack and release settings.
Make sure the release time is slow enough to prevent pumping and
breathing yet fast enough to not affect the next part of the signal
that might not need to be compressed. When dynamically processing a
vocal try to have the vocal go back to unity gain as often as you can
for example: with a 4:1 ratio the meter should be moving from 0VU to
-4VU. If you see the meter moving from -8VU to -4VU you are
over-compressing and corrupting the quality of the vocal. Remember, the
more you dynamically process a signal, the thinner the sound will get.
Dynamic processing does not process evenly over the frequency range,
especially in low-priced compressor/limiters. EQ before compresssing.
For example if the vocal has too much low-end and is not EQed the
compression will be triggered by the low end which will only thin out
the sound leaving dynamic problems untouched. Also, if you are EQing
mid-range into the vocal the compression will factor in the EQ and
compress effectively.


Sibilance

Sibilance is a problem that can destroy the fidelity of a production
- a singer who's every S and T is accompanied by a burst of
high-frequency noise. This isn't anybody's fault, it's all down to how
an individual's mouth works, but it seems that the better the
microphone the more sibilance is captured. This is especially true of
some condenser mics, but unfortunately some people tend to equate a
very bright vocal sound as being more refined or better produced.
What's more, adding effects such as reverb or using heavy compression
can make sibilance noticeably worse.

As sibilance is a high-frequency problem, and equalizers are designed
to emphasize high-frequency detail, it's hardly surprising that using
an enhancer tends to exaggerate sibilance even more. The best place to
tackle this problem is back at the source, and if you have a mic that's
less susceptible to the offending frequencies, try this first. Don't
worry if it's not as bright as the original mic; you can use
equalization to help compensate for that. Be aware of high frequency
distortion that might sound similar to sibilance. The high frequency
distortion will most likely be coming from the mic or mic pre-amp.
Changing the position of the singer relative to the mic may help in
decreasing the sibilance, but in serious cases, you may need to resort
to using a de-esser.

If you need to de-ess, do it before you EQ and comp/limit. Any high end
equalization before the de-esser will make it work harder. Also focus
on the problem frequency range of the sibilance. If you notice a
"shzzz" sound, the problem area will be in the 3kHz-7kHz range. If
it sounds "ssss" it is in the 8kHz-12kHz range. Most de-essers have
a mode where you can listen to what is being removed from the signal
called a side-chain monitor. This will effectively let you target the
problem frequencies accurately and also indicate how much of the
sibilance you are removing. When de-essing try to avoid looking at the
reduction meter and use your ears. De-ess as much as necessary without
creating a lisp problem.

De-essing is "frequency select limiting". It uses very fast
attack and release times due to the short waves lengths common to
sibilance. Most DAWs have plug-ins that will de-ess but actual analog
multi-band compressors work best. You can vary the Q, the ratio, the
attack and release times and the amount of gain reduction. The Brook
Sirens unit in studio 2 is one of the best de-essers out there.

De-essing the reverb send from vocals will greatly reduce the
level and duration in the reverb. Remember that sibilance is just
noise; there is no musical component to it. In most natural reverb
settings you will rarely hear a sibilance problem in the decay of a
sound. By de-essing the sibilance the reverb will still produce high
frequency reverb content that might be desired when mixing especially
if there is a lot of EQ in the 12-15K range used for creating a breathy
intimate effect.

If you are adding mid-range and high-frequency to a vocal
always de-ess before you EQ. This will prevent the compressor from
creating more of a sibilance problem, keeping in mind that high
frequencies contribute a small amount to the overall lead vocal level.

For example: in a word like SPARK the S content will meter -20VU and
the PARK will meter 0VU. If I compress the signal without de-essing
before hand the S will remain at -20VU and the PARK will drop to -6VU.
What you have done is taken the original 20db difference between the S
and the PARK and now made it 14db effectively creating more of a
sibilance problem. If you were to EQ the high frequency range this will
exacerbate the problem even further. The trick is to get the PARK
sounding as compressed and EQed as you like and then with the de-esser
inserted before the compressor and the EQ, take away the amount of
sibilance you want.


Headphone Mix

It is very important that you take the time to provide an excellent
headphone monitor mix to the vocalist for singing. Most vocalists will
need to hear a clear band mix with sufficient harmonic and rhythm
content. If the vocalist is getting ahead or behind the beat you will
need to send more drums or instruments with a rhythmic component. If
the song when finished will have only a lead vocal and a solo
instrument for the intro and first verse, you might suggest to the
drummer to keep time by playing the hi-hat softly so it can be used to
keep everybody in time and then can be removed for the final mix. Note
that most singers do sing ahead of the beat.
If the vocalist's pitch is a problem then you might need to send more
harmonic instrumentation to the headphone mix. If there is not enough
there you might put down a synth pad guide track for the vocalist may
reference their pitch too and then not use it in the final mix. If the
vocalist has to come in before the downbeat insert a pitch reference a
couple of seconds before the song starts. This works especially well if
there are key changes in the song and you always have to back to the
beginning. This is also a good time to experiment with reverb settings;
compression, EQ and effects for singers love to hear an enhanced sound
in their headphones. If you find the singer projecting too much or
singing too softly then they are not hearing themselves properly in the
headphones and this will cause numerous technical and performance
problems. Try to set up to record at least 4 tracks so you can have 4
takes to choose from to make a master take.
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 7:53:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<dougk@musician.org> wrote in message
news:1108072436.937894.49450@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> If you have a DAW with waveform redraw (pencil) tools, just zoom in on
> the waveform where you hear the sounds and "draw" them out. They will
> appear as little jagged peaks on otherwise relatively smooth waveforms.
> Just be careful not to erase t's and s's.
> It's time-consuming, but with practice it's also very effective.
>

Cool Edit (not Adobe Audition) has a fantastic feature where in addition to
waveform view they have a "Spectral View"(?). Most other programs only
analyze a clip you give it and then display a graph but in Cool Edit you can
actually work right on the graph (by selecting ,etc.) and watch it in
real-time. I had to remove a bunch of pops a while back and it was a Godsend
because of how clearly they show up even if embedded or masked by other
sounds. I don't know why every audio editor doesn't have this feature.
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 9:27:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1108144394.242085.58020@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> kevindoylemusic@rogers.com writes:

> Producing Lead Vocals

Did you write a "Recording for Dummies" book or something? You've been
posting a few what appear to be excepts here as extended answers to
questions that, for the most part, are too general to answer
generally.

Maybe you should just tell posters to buy your book or visit your web
site.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
February 12, 2005 6:02:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

be careful, as the "pencil" tool is usually a destructive edit.
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 7:31:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1108145235k@trad>...
> In article <1108144394.242085.58020@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> kevindoylemusic@rogers.com writes:
>
> > Producing Lead Vocals
>
> Did you write a "Recording for Dummies" book or something? You've been
> posting a few what appear to be excepts here as extended answers to
> questions that, for the most part, are too general to answer
> generally.
>
> Maybe you should just tell posters to buy your book or visit your web
> site.


Judging by the email address, Matrixmusic is this guy:

http://www.fanshawec.on.ca/newsletter/2004/16/10.asp

He's got some serious chops and a hell of a resume to back it up if
so. We'll even forgive him for producing Hall and Oates if he keeps
comming through with these fantastic tutorial posts. Great stuff for
the newbies, and I should know, as I am one.

It is a little offtopic, tho, as while the tutorial explains pop and
sibilance, it doesn't go into preventing other unwanted noises created
during vocalization.

~ Matt Gabriel, The Mad Poet of Newport
!