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Anonymous
February 13, 2005 2:21:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Creating Dimension In Mixing



The best sounding mixes contain dimension and perspective where you can
actually visualize depth in a performance. To achieve this you need to
understand how direct sound, reflected sound and reverb work and how to
create this depth with the original sound, DDL, reverb and EQ.
Dimension is a combination of a series of multiple delays (reflections)
and original sound. Once reflections get dense enough that we can no
longer distinguish these as separate individual sounds over a short
period of time, it turns into reverb effect. Reverb can generate sounds
that are smooth and appealing to the ear. To use depth effectively you
need to look at music sounding 3-dimensional rather than a
2-dimensional. To create this you need to incorporate an audio signal
that is made up of original direct sound, early reflections and highly
diffused reflections (reverb). With the proper structure of these
elements, level, frequency response and time duration you will have the
basic knowledge on how to create dimension in mixing. In this age of
digital technology, artificial reverberation is not only more
affordable than ever before but can also be stunningly realistic and
very controllable. With a good understanding of the physics of natural
reverberation and the fundamental operational principles of reverb
processors, it is possible to quickly create the illusion of any
acoustic environment you can imagine.




Breakdown of Reverb Waveform


How Are Reverb Times Determined?

How are reverb times determined? A reverb time or "RT-60" is the
time it takes for a sound burst to decay 60 dB from its original level
in an acoustic setting. Since 30 dB of ambient room noise is common, I
like to say "the time it takes for a sound burst to decay from 90dB to
30dB". Time consuming and costly tests can be performed to see exactly
what frequencies are reverberating and at times what times, but with a
study of the interior finishes we can closely predict this now.



Relationship between listener and direct sound, 1st reflections, early
reflections and highly diffused delays (reverb).

When it comes to creating the impression of a believable reverb
environment, what are the factors that matter most?
There are three areas of reverb perception. Firstly, there's the whole
issue of intelligibility and appealing reverb and what influences them;
what makes something hard to understand and appreciate as opposed to
easy to understand and appreciated. You have the sense of distance,
which is influenced by nearly any time range. Direct sound energy
coming in nearly any time period will cause a feeling that you are at
some distance from the originating sound.
This distance effect will be made up of original direct sound, and its
relationship to duplicate delays. If a delay arrives within 15ms of the
original sound it will create imaging problems. For example, if you
have a sound panned in the center and a delay of 1-15ms on the right,
what you will hear is the image in the center shifting to the left.
This is caused by the innate characteristics of human hearing in its
relationship to localization. The ear perceives localization because a
sound wave will arrive at one ear slightly later than the other ear.
This is an innate survival mechanism for human behavior. It is
otherwise known as the Haas effect. If a delay of 1-15ms is brought
back and panned to the same position as the original you will create
phasing effects.
If a delay signal arrives later than 15ms but before 100ms (approx)
from the original sound it will create dimension, for what you have
done is alerted your psycho-aural response, which tells you that you
are listening to the sound in a reflective environment. Whereas, if you
just heard the original sound only the psycho-aural response would
create the effect that you are standing in a field. If you had a signal
panned centered and delays of 40ms (left) and 60ms (right) it would
sound like you were sitting at a distance with the left reflective
surface slightly closer to you than the right. If these delayed signals
are dull sounding it will imply that the reflective surfaces are
absorbing the high frequency content and placing you in an environment
of wooden walls rather than glass. If a reflection is heard after
100mS, you will perceive it as a separate form of sound energy, perhaps
as a discrete delay depending on the nature of the source. It will also
be easy to localize it in the stereo image, so if you have a reflection
coming in at 200ms and it's panned to the left side, you'll hear it
coming from the left. This is not true if it arrives between 15-100ms.
If the delay occurs between 15-100ms it will not be perceived as a
discrete delay, it will only create depth. If the delay comes from the
left it will be difficult to localize the delay in the panning image,
for it will not be perceived as a separate sound event although if you
have very short percussive sounds such as rim shots, clicks or
handclaps, you will perceive the reflection separately because of its
transient nature and short duration time. If this occurs, you will need
to shorten the delay times to maintain clarity. Generally, any
reflections arriving between 15-100ms will not affect clarity. Adding
reverb with delays will create a natural sounding acoustic environment
(more on that later).

In figure, you will see the setting of a concert hall with three
different seating positions situated at fixed distances from the
original sound source. In position "A" you will mostly hear the
original sound source (80%), little early reflections (5%) and reverb
(15%). In position "B" you will hear the original sound (60%) early
reflections (20%) and reverb (20%). In position "C" you will hear
original sound (40%), early reflections (30%) and reverb (30%).
In position "A" the original sound source (80%) will be full in
frequency response and arrive to the listening position in 5ms. The
early reflections will barely be audible because the listener is
sitting very close to the sound source and the walls of the hall are
almost all-equal distance from the listening position. The reverb will
be delayed when it arrives back to the listening position. The actual
time of this delay will be measured by the distance from the original
sound source to the walls and then back to the ear (100ms pre delay).
The reverb will not be bright. It will be warm sounding for the high
frequency content of the reflections have been absorbed by the walls.
Because the "A" listening position is not close to a wall and at a
distance to the original sound source it will barely hear any early
reflections. The delay of the onset of the reverb will indicate how far
the walls are from the listener. The length of the reverb will indicate
how live the environment is. The overall sound will be intimate, clear
and pleasing to the ear, especially if it is a great singer performing
a ballad. To create this in mixing you will need to add in a reverb
that rolls off more high frequency content over the decay of the
reverb. This means, as a reverb gets longer it also gets duller. A pre
delay of 100-150ms is needed to create the effect that the singer is
close but in a live acoustical environment. Watch out for sibilance in
the reverb. Sibilance is just noise and will effect clarity in the mix.
The way to get rid of this is to heavily de-ess the reverb send not the
reverb return. Try to remove all sibilant information above 3kHz. Roll
off the reverb return in the high frequency and low frequency area and
maybe slightly boost around 2-2.5K to add a little presence for clarity
in the reverb. If using a long reverb time that tends to thin out over
time add in a stereo delay based on the rhythmic value of the song. If
the song has a tempo of 120bpm, a quarter note will equal 500ms. It is
important that when you add in a delay to your reverb that it be a
fundamental of the rhythm for the landing of the beginning of the delay
will also land on an instrument playing on the same beat. This will
allow you to increase the delay to your reverb without noticing it as a
discrete delay. Obviously, if the delay was 400 or 600ms you would hear
the delay sounding discrete for it is landing in awkward places in the
rhythm of the song. If you add in a de-essed, slightly regenerated
quarter note delay to your reverb sound, you will add musical body to
the sound of the reverb. Instead of adding a mono 500ms delay, add a
stereo delay of 490ms (left) and 510ms (right). Make sure the 2 delays
are at least 15ms apart to prevent the Haas effect. This stereo delay
will enhance the effect of the reverb and still sound in time with the
song. Also insert a low pass filter on the delay, so when it
regenerates it sounds less bright on each additional delay and more
believable to the listener for this is what truly happens in a natural
acoustic environment. In total the original sound will be 80%, early
reflections 5% and reverb 15%.
In listening position "B", the original sound source (60%) will
have less high end and low end due to the increased distance between
the sound source and the listener and arrive 35ms at the listening
position. The early reflections (20%) will be arriving mainly from the
left and right walls. The longer the early reflections, the greater the
distance between the sound source and the listening position.
Especially if the early reflections get less bright with the longer
delay time. The early reflections inform the psycho-aural response by
informing the listener that they are in an acoustic environment with at
least two reflective surfaces. A delay of 60 and 80ms will indicate
that the listener is sitting further away from the sound source than
with a delay of 20 and 40ms. It is important that the delays reside
between 20 and 100ms and be at least 15ms in difference to prevent the
Haas effect and that the longer delay be slightly lower in level. The
reverb will arrive to the "B" listening position sooner than the
"A" listening position. This is because in the "B" position the
time it takes for the original sound to arrive to the listening
position is 35ms and the onset of reverb begins at 100ms. The
difference is 65ms, which is what your pre-delay should be set to. The
reverb frequency response will sound better due to the slight
deterioration of the original sound caused by the time it takes for
sound to arrive to the "B" listening position from the sound
source. So to create this dimensional effect, make sure that the
original sound source does not have an extremely wide frequency
response. The depth will be created by at least two or more delays
arriving between 20-100ms. The sooner the delay the closer you will be
to the sound source. Make sure the delay has some high frequency roll
off so the ear will not confuse the delayed signal with the original
signal as being the focus. The reverb will have a smaller pre-delay and
sound slightly brighter than the reverb in the "A" listening
position. Be careful that the reverb time does not corrupt the harmonic
content of the original sound source. Most instruments that require
this effect will be playing in a harmonic content rather than a melodic
content, like a lead vocal or a solo. A good rule of thumb is to make
sure that the reverb time of an instrument playing harmonically is not
too long where the mix becomes harmonically confusing.
In listening position "C" the original sound (40%) will arrive to
the listening position (65ms) at a lower level than positions "A"
and "B" and its frequency response will be even less than listening
position "A" and "B". That is not to say you should go out of
your way to deteriorate the sonic quality of the sound. It is more like
"Do not put too much efforts to make it sound full". It should
contain low end and presence in keeping with the character of the
instrument. The early reflections will be longer than the reflections
of listening position "B" (60-80ms). They will still sound less
bright than the original sound but will be more prominent in level in
the overall sound (30%). It might also be good to create more
additional delays (120 and 160ms) beyond 100ms, but these delays should
only add depth and not necessarily be heard as discrete delays. The
reverb will also contribute more to the overall sound and its pre-delay
will be even shorter. In the "C" listening position, the original
sound arrives to the listening position 65ms later. Because the
acoustics of the environment are fixed, the reverb should not change
dramatically. With the onset of reverb occurring 100ms after the
original sound source, the difference between the reverb arriving to
the listening position and the original sound is only 35ms, which is
now your pre-delay setting.
Overall as we move further back from the sound source the frequency
response of the original sound source gets smaller and early
reflections and reverb add to the overall sound. As you move further
away from the sound source the reflections and the reverb increase in
content to the overall sound. The distance in time between the original
sound source and the early reflections and reverb will decrease. The
overall sound source should always be louder than the reflections and
the reverb for this is a fundamental rule in creating depth in your
mix. If you chose reverb as a pre-send, the reverb that is generated
will still contribute qualities of the original sound source.
The frequency response of the reverb dictates the acoustic properties
of the reflected materials. If it is hard like concrete, the reverb
will contain a lot of mid-range and high end. If the reflective
material is wood it will mainly absorb high and mid-range frequencies.
Many musicians prefer older concert halls because of their warm
acoustical properties that tend to just reflect the musical content of
the sound source. Remember that reverb works best when it is treated in
a musical context. It can elongate the duration of beautiful melodies;
it can create more resonance to drums and add perspective to various
harmonic instruments in the mix.
If you have a sound source like singing and want the vocal to sound
like a ballad performance, you'll find that you can create a recording
where the singer sounds close or far away, at the same time. This is a
very easy thing to do if you have no 1st reflections, early reflections
and late reflections (highly diffused). You get this by close-miking
the original sound and then adding delays, pre-delay to the late energy
(reverb), and reverb with hall or a plate setting. If, for example, you
use a reverb setting of say, 3 seconds with 100ms pre-delay on the
onset of later highly diffused reflections (reverb), you'll find that
the vocalist sounds very intimate, a sort of "in-your-face" sound
but in a hall environment. If you like this reverb setup but wish to
create more distance between the singer and the listener and don't
want to change the reverb decay time, you will have to introduce a
series of 1st reflections so you can slightly recess the singer. Just
using a standard 3sec reverb setting with no pre-delay and no delays
(reflections) will just give you a basic 2 dimensional hall environment
without any sense of listener-to-vocalist distance, no matter how much
reverb or length of reverb time you assign to the original signal. By
adding the earlier energy and over a wider range we can create what
type of a 3 dimensional sound we desire in our mix.
If you add in delays from 50ms-250msec you might create problems with
the sound remaining intelligible and clear. However, you might want to
utilize this for creating a slap back type of effect for lead vocalist.
If used effectively, it will create distance between the original sound
source and the listener. It is also important to decrease the high
frequency response to keep the original vocal more present and clear
and also allowing you to use more of the delay signal.

Decay Time
The length of time from the onset of sound after the initial sound has
been established until it has dropped in level by 60db.
Pre-delay
The distance in time between the onset of the original sound and the
beginning of the reverb sound expressed in milliseconds
Diffusion
If the diffusion is set too high (reflections very close in time) it
will make the reverb sound very smooth. If it is low you might start to
hear discrete delays that might clutter the sound.

Room size
The larger the number, the bigger the size of the reverb space. Certain
programs will introduce more early reflections into the reverb
algorithm.
Modulation Rate and Depth
Randomly shifts the times and its related intensity of the early
reflections, creating a more authentic effect. If using a lot of this
function you need to be aware of any pitch variances of signals with a
lot of harmonic content.
Density
The amount of 1st reflections and early reflections and the time
difference between them. You also have control over the amount of this
effect in the reverb mix. Often used for creating good room sounds for
drums.
Frequency Controls
All reverb loses high frequency content over time. If you EQ a lot of
high-end over the diffused part of the reverb, it tends to sound very
unrealistic. In most "plate" and "hall" algorithms the high
frequency response gradually tapers off over time. There are also
frequency level controls at various low frequencies to keep the reverb
from sounding muddy.
Gated Reverb
A setting where the reverb stays at one level over time and then
suddenly shuts off. Often heard in snare drum sounds in the 80's.
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 6:26:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I am an Atheist
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 12:06:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

kevindoylemusic wrote:

> Creating Dimension In Mixing

Google tells me you're form a Christian music background. Would you
please stop masturbating in rec.audio.pro?

--
ha
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 12:06:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1grxaw2.13jsedm1x3uu5rN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> kevindoylemusic wrote:
>
>> Creating Dimension In Mixing
>
> Google tells me you're form a Christian music background. Would you
> please stop masturbating in rec.audio.pro?

Onanism knows no limits, it seems.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 2:44:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"kevindoylemusic" <kevindoylemusic@rogers.com> wrote in message news:1108337170.631575.316700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I am an Atheist
>

I am agnostic. Spiritual, but non-denominational.

What kind of mic does that mean we have to use? ;-)
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 3:00:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> "kevindoylemusic" wrote...
> > I am an Atheist

> I am agnostic. Spiritual, but non-denominational.

> What kind of mic does that mean we have to use? ;-)

You need a cardioid omnidirectional mic positioned as a figure-of-eight.

--
ha
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 3:05:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message...

> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> > "kevindoylemusic" wrote...

> > > I am an Atheist

> > I am agnostic. Spiritual, but non-denominational.

> > What kind of mic does that mean we have to use? ;-)

> You need a cardioid omnidirectional mic positioned as a figure-of-eight.

Gee Hank... I didn't know you were into metaphysics, too !
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 3:05:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <0XRPd.6229$uc.5157@trnddc01>, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
<mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> says...
> Gee Hank... I didn't know you were into metaphysics, too !

Well, he is and he isn't.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 11:11:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You are "smart" people, right? Way above us ordinary beings.

Dissing people who are making an effort to help other people.
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 12:28:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:rDRPd.6223$uc.3019@trnddc01...
>
> "kevindoylemusic" <kevindoylemusic@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1108337170.631575.316700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > I am an Atheist
> >
>
> I am agnostic. Spiritual, but non-denominational.
>
> What kind of mic does that mean we have to use? ;-)

"I eventually broke up with her over religious differences. I was an
agnostic...and she was an atheist."
- Woody Allen

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 12:45:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>"I eventually broke up with her over religious differences. I was an
>agnostic...and she was an atheist."
> - Woody Allen

AARGH! YOU FORGET THE BEST PART!

.... and we didn't know which religion not to bring the children up under.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
February 14, 2005 12:45:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >"I eventually broke up with her over religious differences. I was an
> >agnostic...and she was an atheist."
> > - Woody Allen
>
> AARGH! YOU FORGET THE BEST PART!
>
> .... and we didn't know which religion not to bring the children
up under.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."




And have you heard about the agnostic insomniac dyslexic.....?


he lies awake at night wondering about whether or not there is a dog.

Mark
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 1:39:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<ignacedhont@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:1108397502.790566.274010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> You are "smart" people, right? Way above us ordinary beings.
>
> Dissing people who are making an effort to help other people.


This is a discussion group, not a classroom. When something gets posted, people
often discuss the merits (or lack of merits.) This occasionally hurts someone's
feelings for whatever reason. Tough. This isn't a love-in, and this isn't a
level playing field, and we don't have to accept everyone's opinions simply
because they exist.

Critical review comes in various flavors. Much of the time there's value to be
found in it. Ignoring critique is not useful.

There are many people who have pointed out many of the issues they have with
these posted essays. If you disagree with any of them, state coherently why that
is.

Keep in mind this largely isn't a beginners newsgroup. It's fine and dandy to
wish to help people, but choosing an appropriate platform is a good first step.
I'm not so sure it's Kevin who should feel he's being spoken to as if he's an
idiot. Yes, some of the people in this newsgroup are very, very smart people.
Add to that a hell of a lot of real world experience that contradicts some of
what's found in these essays, and you get the results you've seen here.

Anyone who wishes to preach without feedback should avail themselves to a
wonderful thing called the Worldwide Web. Usenet ain't it. Confusing the two
results in what you see here. And that has nothing to do with intentions --
good, bad or otherwise. It's just the way it is.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 7:39:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<ignacedhont> wrote:

> Dissing people who are making an effort to help other people.

Helping other people in this discussion group starts with reading the
question(s) asked and replying to those, not in cutting and pasting
stuff that is irrelevant to the question(s) asked and which is, in fact,
loaded with restrictive assumptions and statements that are not at all
helpful to a beginner in the real world.

--
ha
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 8:58:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<ignacedhont@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message news:1108397502.790566.274010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> You are "smart" people, right? Way above us ordinary beings.
>
> Dissing people who are making an effort to help other people.


I would never 'dis' the person, but rather the content of the post
and how appropriate (or not) that it may be. Reacting to those
who may have issues with a post by saying *they* are the ones
that are wrong, mean spirited, egotistical or otherwise, could be
far worse than the original cause for concern and discussion as
it prevents some valid points to be made that could lead to even
more knowledge being passed out and discussed.

We're here to discuss and share our experiences as they relate
to the questions. Heck, you don't see me posting much any more
because a lot of the technology has moved beyond the realm of my
expertise, but that doesn't negate the 30+ years I have invested in
audio which tells me when something smells slightly fishy.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
!