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2 or 3 mics on a tight stage for drum recording?

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Anonymous
February 19, 2005 8:01:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Always great to talk to you guys here...
Here's a good question from a band that popped up at a gig tonight at my
club.
"Can you get a better drum sound on your recordings for us?"
I've been recording the bands that play here as a free bonus for them, so
studio perfection is not a goal, just decent sound, and I've have been
getting good results with a pair of 4051's hung in ORTF from the ceiling
about 12 ft in front of the band (it's a small room), a couple mics on the
amps and vocals inserted through the board. Very live clean "bootleg" sound.
Since the drums are pretty much in the same spot for most bands, I was
wondering if a pair of condensors hanging down from the ceiling about a foot
or so above the drummer's head would be a decent generic answer to get a
full set sound mixed with into the recordings. Another option is to mount
the mics on the sound absorbing panel which is directly behind the drummer.
Stage space it too tight to put anything out front of the kick more than a
foot (otherwise people will kick it over or trip on it), so I'm also
wondering if a kick mic is really needed for this purpose.
So the questions are:
1) XY, ORTF, separate, or just try and see?
2) Angled and pointing where?
3) 2 or 3 mics?
4) Since it's so damned loud on stage (the guitar amps are 3 ft away, and
the bass amp is 4 feet away) bleeding will be a major issue, what kind of
overhead mic would be suitable for this kind of drum/stage/recording setup?
It is on stage at a club, so nothing super fragile or too expensive is
really practical.
Thanks.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 8:01:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

offpeak808 wrote:
> Always great to talk to you guys here...
> Here's a good question from a band that popped up at a gig tonight at
my
> club.
> "Can you get a better drum sound on your recordings for us?"
> I've been recording the bands that play here as a free bonus for
them, so
> studio perfection is not a goal, just decent sound, and I've have
been
> getting good results with a pair of 4051's hung in ORTF from the
ceiling
> about 12 ft in front of the band (it's a small room), a couple mics
on the
> amps and vocals inserted through the board. Very live clean "bootleg"
sound.
> Since the drums are pretty much in the same spot for most bands, I
was
> wondering if a pair of condensors hanging down from the ceiling about
a foot
> or so above the drummer's head would be a decent generic answer to
get a
> full set sound mixed with into the recordings. Another option is to
mount
> the mics on the sound absorbing panel which is directly behind the
drummer.
> Stage space it too tight to put anything out front of the kick more
than a
> foot (otherwise people will kick it over or trip on it), so I'm also
> wondering if a kick mic is really needed for this purpose.
> So the questions are:
> 1) XY, ORTF, separate, or just try and see?
> 2) Angled and pointing where?
> 3) 2 or 3 mics?
> 4) Since it's so damned loud on stage (the guitar amps are 3 ft away,
and
> the bass amp is 4 feet away) bleeding will be a major issue, what
kind of
> overhead mic would be suitable for this kind of drum/stage/recording
setup?
> It is on stage at a club, so nothing super fragile or too expensive
is
> really practical.
> Thanks.


The amps are already being miced to the board? Are you recording to
stereo or multitrack?

You might just try a kick mic to strengthen the beat. I do live
multitrack recording that I mix later but I use a 3 mic setup for drums
most of the time. One kick , one at the snare but set to pick up some
hi-hat, and then overhead towards the floor tom side but set to pick up
floor tom, cymbols and toms.


I use a splitter on the bands vocal mics as many times the band isn't
micing other intruments anway.


Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 8:01:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

offpeak808 <offpeak808@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Always great to talk to you guys here...
>Here's a good question from a band that popped up at a gig tonight at my
>club.
>"Can you get a better drum sound on your recordings for us?"

What IS a better drum sound? That's the question you need to ask them.
Maybe they mean they want a closer drum sound. Maybe they just want to
be playing in a drier room. Maybe they want a more modern spot-miked
sound. Maybe they want the drums to sound like they're in tune. Your
goal is to find out what they don't like about the drum sound so you can
fix it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Anonymous
February 19, 2005 12:22:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have not done much with live recording, so I may not be as informative,
however, I would recommend a kick mic. The fact that you can only get it a
foot away may not be a bad thing. Almost any live recording I have heard
sound just like what it is, a live recording! with multiple mics spaced out
in a large room, you're just asking for a lot of reverb and possible phasing
problems. This is something to consider with your overhead positioning.
(back to the kick though) You're gonna get a less boomy sound, more than
likely, the closer to that beater you get on the kick. And you will be
adding an element to the mixes that doesn't sound as reverby and boomy
(guitar amps aside) which your overheads will probably be if they aren't
close to the set. As far as the phasing problems, I believe that I have read
the XY config works better to kill phasing, but you're sure to encounter it
with probably any micing technique if not done carefully. Also, you may
consider a mono overhead as a last resort, or maybe as an alternative. I've
used a single large diaphragm(sp?) mic in the studio before and got fine
sound. This is with just one single overhead, an sm57 on snare, and a Shure
beta 52 about a foot in front of the kick pointed straight at the beater,
but not in front of the hole. Remember with that kick mic, the further from
the kick drum you have it, the more of the room you're gonna get in your
mix. Another thing to consider is doing some tests. Often times I've gotten
a great drum sound out of overhead mics and just used small blends of the
kick and snare mics to fill out the sound. Find out which mics in the setup
give a live feel and a sense of air/space and which ones sound like close
micing. A good blend will retain the live feel of being in your club, and
give the musicians the sound they are looking for. Live musicians are used
to seeing mics all over the kit and most drummers will probably assume a mic
for every tom and might argue with you if they aren't there. Your choices
here are to try telling him about all the gold records made in the 60s with
a 3 mic setup, or skip that, put the mics on the toms for the live
monitoring, and just record the mics you want to. Also, I don't know much
about your club/bar, but it's possible there could be bands that are using
you for a cheap record (CD, whatever). Remind them that it is a "live"
recording, that you are doing it for "free", and if they really want a good
sounding CD, go to a studio. I'm sure you can reword that to not sound so
bluntly rude.

hope I helped!

-Paul


"offpeak808" <offpeak808@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cv5ksk$5u5$1@jupiter.ttn.net...
> Always great to talk to you guys here...
> Here's a good question from a band that popped up at a gig tonight at my
> club.
> "Can you get a better drum sound on your recordings for us?"
> I've been recording the bands that play here as a free bonus for them, so
> studio perfection is not a goal, just decent sound, and I've have been
> getting good results with a pair of 4051's hung in ORTF from the ceiling
> about 12 ft in front of the band (it's a small room), a couple mics on the
> amps and vocals inserted through the board. Very live clean "bootleg"
> sound.
> Since the drums are pretty much in the same spot for most bands, I was
> wondering if a pair of condensors hanging down from the ceiling about a
> foot
> or so above the drummer's head would be a decent generic answer to get a
> full set sound mixed with into the recordings. Another option is to mount
> the mics on the sound absorbing panel which is directly behind the
> drummer.
> Stage space it too tight to put anything out front of the kick more than a
> foot (otherwise people will kick it over or trip on it), so I'm also
> wondering if a kick mic is really needed for this purpose.
> So the questions are:
> 1) XY, ORTF, separate, or just try and see?
> 2) Angled and pointing where?
> 3) 2 or 3 mics?
> 4) Since it's so damned loud on stage (the guitar amps are 3 ft away, and
> the bass amp is 4 feet away) bleeding will be a major issue, what kind of
> overhead mic would be suitable for this kind of drum/stage/recording
> setup?
> It is on stage at a club, so nothing super fragile or too expensive is
> really practical.
> Thanks.
>
>
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 12:27:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I forgot to mention number of tracks. If you are limited to 4 that's
something to consider on the kick mic, because you'll have to mix it before
recording, but if you have 8 or more then I say add it. you can always
delete it later
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 6:27:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> What IS a better drum sound? That's the question you need to ask them.
> Maybe they mean they want a closer drum sound. Maybe they just want to
> be playing in a drier room. Maybe they want a more modern spot-miked
> sound. Maybe they want the drums to sound like they're in tune. Your
> goal is to find out what they don't like about the drum sound so you can
> fix it.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Apparently they are talking about more detailed presence and clarity from
the drums, rather than the current "wall of sound" which is what is being
picked up out front by the stereo config. Vocals and guit are clear since
they are separately miced. The drums are in tune, the room is dry enough, so
we are talking about more localized clarity and definition from the drum set
so it's not just "kinda there with the rest of the band sound" picked up by
the mics out front.

I'm thinking I can mount two gooseneck podium mic stands on the side of a
sound absorber which is directly behind the drummer. It's about the width of
a twin bed. Here's a photo: (X marks the spot).
http://www.livingroomtaipei.com/uploads/drum_mic_placem...

Another doable option is hanging one condensor down from the ceiling
"orchestra" style right above the middle of the set.
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 1:23:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

offpeak808 <offpeak808@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Apparently they are talking about more detailed presence and clarity from
>the drums, rather than the current "wall of sound" which is what is being
>picked up out front by the stereo config. Vocals and guit are clear since
>they are separately miced. The drums are in tune, the room is dry enough, so
>we are talking about more localized clarity and definition from the drum set
>so it's not just "kinda there with the rest of the band sound" picked up by
>the mics out front.

Stick a spot mike right above the drums, then when you mix it in, put
a dramatic high-pass filter on it and adjust the frequency until the toms
sound right. In a perfect world you can delay the mains to match it, but
you can get away with just the high-pass so that it's just adding a sense
of detail in there.

>I'm thinking I can mount two gooseneck podium mic stands on the side of a
>sound absorber which is directly behind the drummer. It's about the width of
>a twin bed. Here's a photo: (X marks the spot).
>http://www.livingroomtaipei.com/uploads/drum_mic_placem...

Maybe, but watch that some of those mikes overload too easily for the
drums. Try it with just one mike, though.

>Another doable option is hanging one condensor down from the ceiling
>"orchestra" style right above the middle of the set.

You're going to get a lot of cymbal.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 5:15:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks Scott! I'll try one of those EV468s which you suggested. I bought an
old one and love it for vocals. A lot of people have chosen this mic over
the others available onstage. When you say "right above the drums" are you
talking about over the drummers head, or sort of above the toms from the
front, or what exactly?


>
> Stick a spot mike right above the drums, then when you mix it in, put
> a dramatic high-pass filter on it and adjust the frequency until the toms
> sound right. In a perfect world you can delay the mains to match it, but
> you can get away with just the high-pass so that it's just adding a sense
> of detail in there.
>
> >I'm thinking I can mount two gooseneck podium mic stands on the side of a
> >sound absorber which is directly behind the drummer. It's about the width
of
> >a twin bed. Here's a photo: (X marks the spot).
> >http://www.livingroomtaipei.com/uploads/drum_mic_placem...
>
> Maybe, but watch that some of those mikes overload too easily for the
> drums. Try it with just one mike, though.
>
> >Another doable option is hanging one condensor down from the ceiling
> >"orchestra" style right above the middle of the set.
>
> You're going to get a lot of cymbal.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 5:15:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

offpeak808 <offpeak808@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks Scott! I'll try one of those EV468s which you suggested. I bought an
>old one and love it for vocals. A lot of people have chosen this mic over
>the others available onstage. When you say "right above the drums" are you
>talking about over the drummers head, or sort of above the toms from the
>front, or what exactly?

You're going to have to play around. You want to get the toms and snares
and you don't want to get very much cymbal because you probably already
have too much in the mains.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
!