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Nuendo ELUA - am I just completely screwed?

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Anonymous
February 20, 2005 7:29:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ranbling rant, spitting into the wind alert - you've been warned...

I've known for a while now that software makers were including
non-transferrability clauses in their software licenses, but I had no idea
that was being applied to software costing 1000s of dollars, and even when the
software employs a dongle for copy protection. Nevetheless, having just
decided my wife could be more productive with Logic than Nuendo (which we've
been using), I finally got around to really reading the Nuendo ELUA, and it
includes the words "not transferrable" (with no elaboration) with respect to
the contract scope.

Now, I know I should read and understand the consequences of license
agreements before I agree to use an expensive piece of software, but frankly,
I feel screwed if I understand that this means we can't sell our copy od
Nuendo 2.1. We still have an awful lot of hypothetical equity in this
software, and I think we ought to be able to sell that for a good $750.

So, can anyone tell me if I'm understanding non-transferrability clause, and
if so, is there even any recourse to better-behaved software-makers these
days? Does anyone sell expensive software such that you actually get to own
your own copy anymore, or are we just paying the manufacturers to borrow a
copy, and screw us if we're not happy with it a year later?

If I buy a car, and a year later, it's not working out, I don't want to have
to shell out for a new car, and not be able to get anything for the sale of my
old one that I no longer want, but someone else wants enough to pay me for.
Don't tell me copyright is different because I can bloody well sell my used
books, too.

Oh yeah - this would all be moot if Apple offered a competitive upgrade for
Logic, but they don't. As a result, they'll only see our $300 for Logic
Express for now instead of, say $550 for a competitive upgrade purchase.
Hopefully, we'll be able to save up for Logic Pro, but who can say for sure.
Are you listening, Apple?
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 8:24:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I can't find their EULA online and can't find my copy here anywhere as
I'm in the process of moving this week...that's another story.
But, I don't think that they can keep you from selling your copy. What
they're probably saying is that since the EULA from most of these
companies from Adobe to Microsoft to Steinberg have language in there
that you're mearly using their software and don't really officially
"own" anything, that there's not much to sell. Sure you can sell
someone else the CD, dongle and manual, but they're just going to get
to use it on their computer. They won't have support, upgrade options
or anything else that comes with a proper license. That's normally
what "non-transferrable" means. Not, "non-resellable".
Later,

m

fyi...I work for a LARGE software company.
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 8:51:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Have you asked Steinberg USA about this?

I called them when I was contemplating selling my copy of Wavelab and they were quite reasonable. In short, their only question was whether I had registered the SW or not. I hadn't, so it was a seamless sale. If I had registered it, I merely had to send a signed letter to Steinberg and the purchaser and they would take care of it.
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Anonymous
February 20, 2005 8:51:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 20 Feb 2005 17:24:34 -0800, mwood5nospam@yahoo.com wrote:

>I can't find their EULA online and can't find my copy here anywhere as
>I'm in the process of moving this week...that's another story.
>But, I don't think that they can keep you from selling your copy. What
>they're probably saying is that since the EULA from most of these
>companies from Adobe to Microsoft to Steinberg have language in there
>that you're mearly using their software and don't really officially
>"own" anything, that there's not much to sell. Sure you can sell
>someone else the CD, dongle and manual, but they're just going to get
>to use it on their computer. They won't have support, upgrade options
>or anything else that comes with a proper license. That's normally
>what "non-transferrable" means. Not, "non-resellable".

All well and good, bu why would anyone would want to buy my copy of Nuendo
minus support and the ability to upgrade?
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 9:11:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:51:02 -0800, Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:

>Have you asked Steinberg USA about this?

Obviously not <g>.

>I called them when I was contemplating selling my copy of Wavelab and they were
>quite reasonable. In short, their only question was whether I had registered
>the SW or not. I hadn't, so it was a seamless sale. If I had registered it,
>I merely had to send a signed letter to Steinberg and the purchaser and they
>would take care of it.

Neat - I'll contact Steinberg about this, then. Thanks for the reply, Kurt.
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 9:15:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:51:02 -0800, Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:

>Have you asked Steinberg USA about this?

I just realized, I might have trouble getting an answer on this right now
because of the Yamaha purchase of Stenberg. I might have to wait for my
message to route through Yamaha's legal department, and my experience is that
Yamaha is not very responsive.
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 9:17:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Exaclty. That's really the case with most of the non-music apps you
buy as well. Just about all the EULA's out there are worded similar.
Funny, as much as we bitch about them, but Digidesign is about the only
one I can think of that is transferrable.
later,
m
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 9:22:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:29:20 -0800, Steve Jorgensen <nospam@nospam.nospam>
wrote:

....
>So, can anyone tell me if I'm understanding non-transferrability clause, and
>if so, is there even any recourse to better-behaved software-makers these
>days? Does anyone sell expensive software such that you actually get to own
>your own copy anymore, or are we just paying the manufacturers to borrow a
>copy, and screw us if we're not happy with it a year later?

I just checked the Logic Pro license agreement, and it specifically permits
transfer, so long as all materials are transferred, and you don't retain any
of the software components on your machine - as it should be. Thanks, Apple.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 2:06:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hannibul Artese wrote:
>
> If you spend $3600 for AutoCAD, decide not to ride the upgrade bandwagon,
> you will eventually find that if you don't upgrade to a new version,
> then you lose the ability to *ever* upgrade.
>
> And since you can't actually transfer a license, you not have the
> ability to recoup any of your software investement.
>
> I can't believe that our legal system has given this much authority to
> the developer, and stripped away our rights to transfer the use of the
> software.
>
> I sincerely hope that someone, somewhere, challenges this in court.


Germany has laws preventing this sort of nonsense. Microsoft hates them.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 5:37:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve Jorgensen wrote:

> Oh yeah - this would all be moot if Apple offered a competitive upgrade for
> Logic, but they don't. As a result, they'll only see our $300 for Logic
> Express for now instead of, say $550 for a competitive upgrade purchase.
> Hopefully, we'll be able to save up for Logic Pro, but who can say for sure.
> Are you listening, Apple?

If you're thinking of going from a full blown Nuendo rig to Logic
Express you'd better make _very_ sure the Logic Express actually
includes ll the features you'll need to get your work done. You might be
surprised by some of its shortcoming relative to Logic Pro.

What about Nuendo drives y'all to think of making this switch?

--
ha
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 5:37:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:37:03 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) wrote:

....
>What about Nuendo drives y'all to think of making this switch?

3 reasons.

1. My wife likes to do some work at home, and some at studios. We don't know
of a single local studio using Nuendo. Most are using Pro Tools, but some are
using Logic, and Logic doesn't charge exorbitantly for certain "extra"
features that ought to have been included in the first place, nor does it have
arbitrary track count limits if you don't buy $8000 hardware.

2. My wife has always been more of a musician than an engineer, and is not
extremely computer savvy, but has been able to become vastly more independent
doing recording in Garage Band. It's easy to use, has loops and very good
multi-effects plug-ins with great presets. She's quickly become cramped by
the lack of effects automation though. Moving a project from Garage Band to
Nuendo takes a lot of work, and the effects don't come along for the ride.
Duplicating the effects in Nuendo using multiple single-effect plug-ins is a
big job, if you can make it work at all (better engineers than us would have
less trouble, of course). Thus, even though Logic may be technically more
challenging to operate than Nuendo, it will end up being easier to learn and
use if being good at Garage Band is the starting point, and if we continue to
use Garage Band as a tool for quiclky capturing ideas, many of which evolve
into more serious projects..

3. Nuendo has proven to be a bit too quirky on the Mac. When we got it, it
had a screen redraw bug that took months for Steinberg to fix, and it still
has a way of pegging the CPU and glitching during record, even on our dual
2GHz Mac, and even on simple projects. Also, it has always had a ReWire bug
that requires us to operate it in single-CPU mode, or the audio is completely
mangled.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 5:37:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:37:03 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) wrote:

....
>If you're thinking of going from a full blown Nuendo rig to Logic
>Express you'd better make _very_ sure the Logic Express actually
>includes ll the features you'll need to get your work done. You might be
>surprised by some of its shortcoming relative to Logic Pro.

I'm sure you're right, but I've also figured out we were probably delided when
we bought Nuendo into thinking it would be substantially better for our needs
than, say, Cubase. We had envisioned that the OMF import/export ability would
make it easier to move projects back and forth to studios using Pro Tools. In
fact, that has never been useful. As for additional features like 10.2
Surround, we have never wanted to try 5.1 Surround.

I think, perhaps, we are further a way that we would have liked to think from
being advanced enough to really suffer from the limitations of a non-pro
software package, though I know we'd get plenty of use out of some of the
effects and software instruments in Logic Pro.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 6:02:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve Jorgensen wrote:

> I just checked the Logic Pro license agreement, and it specifically permits
> transfer, so long as all materials are transferred, and you don't retain any
> of the software components on your machine - as it should be. Thanks, Apple.

That's actually been Emagic's policy all along, and Apple has bought it
along with Emagic. As for retaining any of the software components on
your machine, absent the XSkey dongle everything installed just takes up
space. The app doesn't boot without the key.

--
ha
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 6:33:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Just an additional anecdote to secondary market software buying. In
early 2004 I bought a "New In Box" copy of Nuendo 2 on ebay. Everything
in the box was conmplete, so I registered the software online and have
been using it with no problems since. I recently called Steinberg USA to
upgrade to N3 and was told the serial number I gave them was already
registered to someone else. The name they gave me was not the seller of
the program. Steinberg will not let me upgrade the software, unless I am
able to locate the mystery person and get them to transfer ownership. I
have no idea who this other person is, and worse, no idea why this
discrepancy was not caught right away when I registered the software.
Steinbergs first question was "Did you buy this on ebay?" Oddly enough,
I bought Wavelab 4 on ebay as "used" but unregistered. I registered
online and upgraded to Wavelab 5 with no problems at all.
So, buying "used" on the secondary market can contain risk. I do not
hold Steinberg to be "The bad guy" as they are perfectly willing to
transfer program registration if handled properly between the seller and
buyer.
Kyle Harris


hank alrich wrote:
> Steve Jorgensen wrote:
>
>
>>Oh yeah - this would all be moot if Apple offered a competitive upgrade for
>>Logic, but they don't. As a result, they'll only see our $300 for Logic
>>Express for now instead of, say $550 for a competitive upgrade purchase.
>>Hopefully, we'll be able to save up for Logic Pro, but who can say for sure.
>>Are you listening, Apple?
>
>
> If you're thinking of going from a full blown Nuendo rig to Logic
> Express you'd better make _very_ sure the Logic Express actually
> includes ll the features you'll need to get your work done. You might be
> surprised by some of its shortcoming relative to Logic Pro.
>
> What about Nuendo drives y'all to think of making this switch?
>
> --
> ha
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 7:48:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Non transferrable means that any future patches or upgrade pricing don't
take affect. If anyone wants the version you have, you can sell it. They
just can't use it to move from V2 to V3, for instance.

This is pretty standard.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Steve Jorgensen" <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:p t9i11dvmlhpmp89igqd27qe9sm56lljjg@4ax.com...
> Ranbling rant, spitting into the wind alert - you've been warned...
>
> I've known for a while now that software makers were including
> non-transferrability clauses in their software licenses, but I had no idea
> that was being applied to software costing 1000s of dollars, and even when
the
> software employs a dongle for copy protection. Nevetheless, having just
> decided my wife could be more productive with Logic than Nuendo (which
we've
> been using), I finally got around to really reading the Nuendo ELUA, and
it
> includes the words "not transferrable" (with no elaboration) with respect
to
> the contract scope.
>
> Now, I know I should read and understand the consequences of license
> agreements before I agree to use an expensive piece of software, but
frankly,
> I feel screwed if I understand that this means we can't sell our copy od
> Nuendo 2.1. We still have an awful lot of hypothetical equity in this
> software, and I think we ought to be able to sell that for a good $750.
>
> So, can anyone tell me if I'm understanding non-transferrability clause,
and
> if so, is there even any recourse to better-behaved software-makers these
> days? Does anyone sell expensive software such that you actually get to
own
> your own copy anymore, or are we just paying the manufacturers to borrow a
> copy, and screw us if we're not happy with it a year later?
>
> If I buy a car, and a year later, it's not working out, I don't want to
have
> to shell out for a new car, and not be able to get anything for the sale
of my
> old one that I no longer want, but someone else wants enough to pay me
for.
> Don't tell me copyright is different because I can bloody well sell my
used
> books, too.
>
> Oh yeah - this would all be moot if Apple offered a competitive upgrade
for
> Logic, but they don't. As a result, they'll only see our $300 for Logic
> Express for now instead of, say $550 for a competitive upgrade purchase.
> Hopefully, we'll be able to save up for Logic Pro, but who can say for
sure.
> Are you listening, Apple?
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 9:04:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <YanSd.2111$MY6.288@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Kyle W.
Harris" <playr@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Just an additional anecdote to secondary market software buying. In
> early 2004 I bought a "New In Box" copy of Nuendo 2 on ebay. Everything
> in the box was conmplete, so I registered the software online and have
> been using it with no problems since. I recently called Steinberg USA to
> upgrade to N3 and was told the serial number I gave them was already
> registered to someone else. The name they gave me was not the seller of
> the program. Steinberg will not let me upgrade the software, unless I am
> able to locate the mystery person and get them to transfer ownership. I
> have no idea who this other person is, and worse, no idea why this
> discrepancy was not caught right away when I registered the software.
> Steinbergs first question was "Did you buy this on ebay?" Oddly enough,
> I bought Wavelab 4 on ebay as "used" but unregistered. I registered
> online and upgraded to Wavelab 5 with no problems at all.

I am wondering if they might charge a "registration transfer fee" such as
Digidesign does? I have some old 442 hardware that I bought used from the
original owner, complete with floppies and manuals, heck even the
anti-static bags(which I've since lost those bags). Just, since it's so
old and I don't use it all that much, I haven't bothered to register it. I
might soon since I have cash to do so with and purchase some updated
hardware.

I regularly don't register my software. Seems everyone wants to annoy me
or mine my data for their marketing and income purposes.

If some company pulled what Steinberg did to you, I'd lose them in a
second. If you can prove you have the original discs and license
information NOW, then that should be sufficient.

--
The Deadbeats' Hall of Lame: http://www.studio42.org/
Where spammers are exposed for the deadbeats they truly are.
California Resident says: We've upped our standards, so now UP YOURS!
Don't respond to this address. It's invalid and I own the domain.
--
Giang Tien Audio: http://www.giangtien.com/ Sacramento, CA
February 21, 2005 9:04:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <for_usenet-2102051003540001@3.0-24.42.1.10.in-addr.arpa>,
Chris Pickett <for_usenet@invalid.studio42.com> wrote:

> I am wondering if they might charge a "registration transfer fee" such as
> Digidesign does? I have some old 442 hardware that I bought used from the
> original owner, complete with floppies and manuals, heck even the
> anti-static bags(which I've since lost those bags). Just, since it's so
> old and I don't use it all that much, I haven't bothered to register it. I
> might soon since I have cash to do so with and purchase some updated
> hardware.



I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Digi charges this fee
anymore.

Also, does Digi really offer any upgrade worth anything for a 442
system??



David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island

CelebrationSound@aol.com
www.CelebrationSound.com
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:14:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve Jorgensen wrote:

> (hank alrich) wrote:

> >If you're thinking of going from a full blown Nuendo rig to Logic
> >Express you'd better make _very_ sure the Logic Express actually
> >includes ll the features you'll need to get your work done. You might be
> >surprised by some of its shortcoming relative to Logic Pro.

> I'm sure you're right, but I've also figured out we were probably delided when
> we bought Nuendo into thinking it would be substantially better for our needs
> than, say, Cubase. We had envisioned that the OMF import/export ability would
> make it easier to move projects back and forth to studios using Pro Tools. In
> fact, that has never been useful. As for additional features like 10.2
> Surround, we have never wanted to try 5.1 Surround.

> I think, perhaps, we are further a way that we would have liked to think from
> being advanced enough to really suffer from the limitations of a non-pro
> software package, though I know we'd get plenty of use out of some of the
> effects and software instruments in Logic Pro.

Are you saying you'll not want to punch-in on the fly? Because that's
one example of something very useful that Logic Express doesn't do.

--
ha
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:14:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:14:43 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) wrote:

>Steve Jorgensen wrote:
>
>> (hank alrich) wrote:
>
>> >If you're thinking of going from a full blown Nuendo rig to Logic
>> >Express you'd better make _very_ sure the Logic Express actually
>> >includes ll the features you'll need to get your work done. You might be
>> >surprised by some of its shortcoming relative to Logic Pro.
>
>> I'm sure you're right, but I've also figured out we were probably deluded when
>> we bought Nuendo into thinking it would be substantially better for our needs
>> than, say, Cubase. We had envisioned that the OMF import/export ability would
>> make it easier to move projects back and forth to studios using Pro Tools. In
>> fact, that has never been useful. As for additional features like 10.2
>> Surround, we have never wanted to try 5.1 Surround.
>
>> I think, perhaps, we are further a way that we would have liked to think from
>> being advanced enough to really suffer from the limitations of a non-pro
>> software package, though I know we'd get plenty of use out of some of the
>> effects and software instruments in Logic Pro.
>
>Are you saying you'll not want to punch-in on the fly? Because that's
>one example of something very useful that Logic Express doesn't do.

Ouch - Ok, I guess we'll want to get Pro as soon as we can afford it.
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 5:47:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <210220051313591299%ihate@spamo.com>, david <ihate@spamo.com> wrote:

> In article <for_usenet-2102051003540001@3.0-24.42.1.10.in-addr.arpa>,
> Chris Pickett <for_usenet@invalid.studio42.com> wrote:
>
> > I am wondering if they might charge a "registration transfer fee" such as
> > Digidesign does? I have some old 442 hardware that I bought used from the
> > original owner, complete with floppies and manuals, heck even the
> > anti-static bags(which I've since lost those bags). Just, since it's so
> > old and I don't use it all that much, I haven't bothered to register it. I
> > might soon since I have cash to do so with and purchase some updated
> > hardware.
>
>
>
> I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Digi charges this fee
> anymore.
>
> Also, does Digi really offer any upgrade worth anything for a 442
> system??
>
When I was looking to upgrade, there was still a direct upgrade path. I
think the 882 or 8816 or something like that. I bought in at towards the
tail end of that upgrade.

Since NuBuss is a thing of the past, I doubt I could get a Digi002 system
with PT LE with any sort of decent incentive.

--
The Deadbeats' Hall of Lame: http://www.studio42.org/
Where spammers are exposed for the deadbeats they truly are.
California Resident says: We've upped our standards, so now UP YOURS!
Don't respond to this address. It's invalid and I own the domain.
--
Giang Tien Audio: http://www.giangtien.com/ Sacramento, CA
!