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Good Drum Sample Solution for Pop/Rock Music?

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Anonymous
February 28, 2005 4:04:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Been looking for a good solution of acoustic sounding drums in order to
handle more of my music production which I would call "pro demo" as far
as intent of quality. A real drummer is not practical for me given the
space where I record and I can't drum effectively enough to do what I
want (I'm a guitarist) anyway. I've tried the session drummer plug-in
within Sonar 4 and used higher quality soundfonts that I purchased but
it just didn't sound that great on the cymbals as far as transitions,
etc. I'm considering the following solutions:

-Continue to force fit loops of real drums - sounds the best to my
ears, but the options seem limiting and it's much tougher to adjust
fixed audio loops.
-Try an intelligent software drummer like Groove Agent - sounds the
best to get convincing drums as far as feel of the groove. Can edit
the MIDI track to further customize.
-Try a drum sampler with high quality samples - problem here is what to
trigger the drums with (Akai pads?) and then it puts the burden on me
to come up with believable drum sounds and transitions.

Are there some other more effective ways to do this? Better samplers
and triggers? What about a program like BFD? Apparently it has very
convincing acoustic samples, works in Sonar, and it has some patterns
as well.

Thanks in advance,

Matt Martin
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 6:04:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

-Try a drum sampler with high quality samples - problem here is what to

trigger the drums with (Akai pads?) and then it puts the burden on me
to come up with believable drum sounds and transitions.

Hi Matt
Have you tried compressing the live drums heavily with a slow attack
time, allowing the dynamics of the transients to come through. Then
edit the attack of the samples and add them in for the tone and
resonance.
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 9:13:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

try Spectrasonics Stylus RMX

paired with good match quantizing it can produce miracles

Eric Persing the head designer works for Our Lord JesusChrist himself



http://www.blackwatchstudio.com/
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Anonymous
February 28, 2005 10:10:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1109624695.757405.190470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
martinclan99@msn.com says...
> -Try a drum sampler with high quality samples - problem here is what to
> trigger the drums with (Akai pads?) and then it puts the burden on me
> to come up with believable drum sounds and transitions.

If you can play at all, you could use vDrums... record the drum parts
slowly, and to MIDI instead of audio - then quantize and edit the hell
out of it till it sounds good, play back the MIDI, and record the audio
output.

The new generation of vDrums has great sounds, including cymbals, hi-
hat, positional snare, etc - probably as close to acoustic-sounding as
you're going to get.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 10:10:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Have you tried livestudiodrums.com?
"Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c8d7d081aa7f46989898@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <1109624695.757405.190470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> martinclan99@msn.com says...
>> -Try a drum sampler with high quality samples - problem here is what to
>> trigger the drums with (Akai pads?) and then it puts the burden on me
>> to come up with believable drum sounds and transitions.
>
> If you can play at all, you could use vDrums... record the drum parts
> slowly, and to MIDI instead of audio - then quantize and edit the hell
> out of it till it sounds good, play back the MIDI, and record the audio
> output.
>
> The new generation of vDrums has great sounds, including cymbals, hi-
> hat, positional snare, etc - probably as close to acoustic-sounding as
> you're going to get.
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
> Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
> http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 11:59:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks to the others who've responded so far...

Jay,

I haven't tried that yet, but the site looks interesting. Have you
tried it out or heard positive feedback from someone you know? How
much input do you get into the process of dictating how the drums
sound?

Thanks,

Matt
Anonymous
March 1, 2005 6:35:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1109653154.222970.221940@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
martinclan99@msn.com says...
> I haven't tried that yet, but the site looks interesting. Have you
> tried it out or heard positive feedback from someone you know? How
> much input do you get into the process of dictating how the drums
> sound?

I have the old vDrums; I personally love them. They're not a real drum
set, of course, but in some cases (like when you want to do MIDI
editing), that's better - and they're probably the closest sound and
feel to acoustic drums you'll find. One problem with samples is that,
unless you're manually tweaking every hit, each snare hit will sound the
same, etc. which isn't what real drums sound like.

The old vDrums are pretty good, but the cymbal and hi-hat sounds are
lacking, and because the hi-hat doesn't move, you don't get very
accurate half-open hi-hat sounds - they're simulated based on pedal
position. The new ones have much better sample quality, and also have
SPDIF out, so you're not subject to the poor shielding and output
quality of the output amp in the vDrums. (I ended up upgrading mine.)

I'd recommend going here and downloading the manual for the TD-20:

http://www.rolandus.com/support/product_manual.asp?Lett...

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 8:55:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mtmartin71 wrote:
> Been looking for a good solution of acoustic sounding drums in order to
> handle more of my music production which I would call "pro demo" as far
> as intent of quality. A real drummer is not practical for me given the
> space where I record and I can't drum effectively enough to do what I
> want (I'm a guitarist) anyway. I've tried the session drummer plug-in
> within Sonar 4 and used higher quality soundfonts that I purchased but
> it just didn't sound that great on the cymbals as far as transitions,
> etc. I'm considering the following solutions:

Hi!

Try Native Instruments Battery VSTi + Drumkit From Hell or some other
well recorded and WELL PLAYED drum sample library. Nothings more
important in playing drums than playing well;) I mean hitting the drums
right. That's crucial to the right and good sound.

Sven
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 9:55:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You should definetly check out toontracks dfh series..
http://www.toontrack.com/index_samples.shtml
I have the superior package... its by far the most convincing drumsoftware
and sampleset I've ever heard.. and its really nice working with..
Check some clips and the flash demo/tutorial for superior .. I think you'll
like it :) 

/Michael Hansen


www.mindmare.com


"Mtmartin71" <martinclan99@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1109624695.757405.190470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Been looking for a good solution of acoustic sounding drums in order to
> handle more of my music production which I would call "pro demo" as far
> as intent of quality. A real drummer is not practical for me given the
> space where I record and I can't drum effectively enough to do what I
> want (I'm a guitarist) anyway. I've tried the session drummer plug-in
> within Sonar 4 and used higher quality soundfonts that I purchased but
> it just didn't sound that great on the cymbals as far as transitions,
> etc. I'm considering the following solutions:
>
> -Continue to force fit loops of real drums - sounds the best to my
> ears, but the options seem limiting and it's much tougher to adjust
> fixed audio loops.
> -Try an intelligent software drummer like Groove Agent - sounds the
> best to get convincing drums as far as feel of the groove. Can edit
> the MIDI track to further customize.
> -Try a drum sampler with high quality samples - problem here is what to
> trigger the drums with (Akai pads?) and then it puts the burden on me
> to come up with believable drum sounds and transitions.
>
> Are there some other more effective ways to do this? Better samplers
> and triggers? What about a program like BFD? Apparently it has very
> convincing acoustic samples, works in Sonar, and it has some patterns
> as well.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Matt Martin
>
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 1:44:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael,

Those do sound very convincing. The splashes and cymbals are the only
thing that sound a little funky in just a few spots, but my
understanding is that's the case with any drum samples. In the thread,
Jay mentioned using v-drums to trigger. I'm decent enough I guess to
lay down some sort of beat and then come in later and muck with it to
get it right, but, going with v-drums is a large investment and I don't
really have the space to place the kit. What are you using to trigger
the samples? Someone else mentioned Battery but isn't that just
software? Don't you need to trigger the samples and do so with proper
velocity, etc.?

I haven't heard anyone mention BFD yet. Anyone actually try it? It
seems to have very detailed and well recorded samples (based on their
marketing hype at least). When I listen to their samples, they sound
convincing and in the same league as DFH. Love to get feedback from
someone who has used both sample sets and programs.

Thanks,

Matt

Matt
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 2:17:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mtmartin71 wrote:
> I haven't heard anyone mention BFD yet. Anyone actually try it? It
> seems to have very detailed and well recorded samples (based on their
> marketing hype at least). When I listen to their samples, they sound
> convincing and in the same league as DFH. Love to get feedback from
> someone who has used both sample sets and programs.

There are some guys here who were recommending the BFD drums a
couple months back. The new version of Native Instruments Battery
(Battery II) sounds pretty good and has a bunch of new multi-sample
Drum libaries intended to compete with the BFD drum kits, it has some
kit setups with like 5 or 6 mics on a snare drum. So you can adjust
the levels for how much of the room or overhead mics you want on your
snare hits, and of course there are different velocity layers as well.
Pretty cool stuff.

Speaking of NI, the new version "Kontact II" is looking pretty
cool too, it has among other things multi-sample libraries intended to
compete with the Vienna Strings sample libraries. This gives you
intelligent responses to your playing, so now for different string
articulations you don't need to change sample patches, the software
follows your articulations. It also has a convolution reverb onboard,
now if they would just give us a "Live input"....

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 2:18:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mtmartin71 wrote:
> I haven't heard anyone mention BFD yet. Anyone actually try it? It
> seems to have very detailed and well recorded samples (based on their
> marketing hype at least). When I listen to their samples, they sound
> convincing and in the same league as DFH. Love to get feedback from
> someone who has used both sample sets and programs.

There are some guys here who were recommending the BFD drums a
couple months back. The new version of Native Instruments Battery
(Battery II) sounds pretty good and has a bunch of new multi-sample
Drum libaries intended to compete with the BFD drum kits, it has some
kit setups with like 5 or 6 mics on a snare drum. So you can adjust
the levels for how much of the room or overhead mics you want on your
snare hits, and of course there are different velocity layers as well.
Pretty cool stuff.

Speaking of NI, the new version "Kontact II" is looking pretty
cool too, it has among other things multi-sample libraries intended to
compete with the Vienna Strings sample libraries. This gives you
intelligent responses to your playing, so now for different string
articulations you don't need to change sample patches, the software
follows your articulations. It also has a convolution reverb onboard,
now if they would just give us a "Live input"....

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 2:18:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mtmartin71 wrote:
> I haven't heard anyone mention BFD yet. Anyone actually try it? It
> seems to have very detailed and well recorded samples (based on their
> marketing hype at least). When I listen to their samples, they sound
> convincing and in the same league as DFH. Love to get feedback from
> someone who has used both sample sets and programs.

There are some guys here who were recommending the BFD drums a
couple months back. The new version of Native Instruments Battery
(Battery II) sounds pretty good and has a bunch of new multi-sample
Drum libaries intended to compete with the BFD drum kits, it has some
kit setups with like 5 or 6 mics on a snare drum. So you can adjust
the levels for how much of the room or overhead mics you want on your
snare hits, and of course there are different velocity layers as well.
Pretty cool stuff.

Speaking of NI, the new version "Kontact II" is looking pretty
cool too, it has among other things multi-sample libraries intended to
compete with the Vienna Strings sample libraries. This gives you
intelligent responses to your playing, so now for different string
articulations you don't need to change sample patches, the software
follows your articulations. It also has a convolution reverb onboard,
now if they would just give us a "Live input"....

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 2:18:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mtmartin71 wrote:
> I haven't heard anyone mention BFD yet. Anyone actually try it? It
> seems to have very detailed and well recorded samples (based on their
> marketing hype at least). When I listen to their samples, they sound
> convincing and in the same league as DFH. Love to get feedback from
> someone who has used both sample sets and programs.

There are some guys here who were recommending the BFD drums a
couple months back. The new version of Native Instruments Battery
(Battery II) sounds pretty good and has a bunch of new multi-sample
Drum libaries intended to compete with the BFD drum kits, it has some
kit setups with like 5 or 6 mics on a snare drum. So you can adjust
the levels for how much of the room or overhead mics you want on your
snare hits, and of course there are different velocity layers as well.
Pretty cool stuff.

Speaking of NI, the new version "Kontact II" is looking pretty
cool too, it has among other things multi-sample libraries intended to
compete with the Vienna Strings sample libraries. This gives you
intelligent responses to your playing, so now for different string
articulations you don't need to change sample patches, the software
follows your articulations. It also has a convolution reverb onboard,
now if they would just give us a "Live input"....

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 1:11:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:44:31 -0500, Mtmartin71 wrote
(in article <1109832271.426545.240910@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>):

> Michael,
>
> Those do sound very convincing. The splashes and cymbals are the only
> thing that sound a little funky in just a few spots, but my
> understanding is that's the case with any drum samples. In the thread,
> Jay mentioned using v-drums to trigger. I'm decent enough I guess to
> lay down some sort of beat and then come in later and muck with it to
> get it right, but, going with v-drums is a large investment and I don't
> really have the space to place the kit. What are you using to trigger
> the samples? Someone else mentioned Battery but isn't that just
> software? Don't you need to trigger the samples and do so with proper
> velocity, etc.?
>
> I haven't heard anyone mention BFD yet. Anyone actually try it? It
> seems to have very detailed and well recorded samples (based on their
> marketing hype at least). When I listen to their samples, they sound
> convincing and in the same league as DFH. Love to get feedback from
> someone who has used both sample sets and programs.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
>
> Matt
>

In fact, I'm now working with BFD and have found it to be somewhat
troublesome on the Digi 002.

While I do like the sounds and the flexibility afforded by BFD...

At present I can't run BFD in 24-bit mode. It has to be in 16-bit mode. The
documentation is too spare and not particularly well written.

When I try to audition different drum sounds, PTLE jams and quits.

Getting support from BFD has been spotty. Fortunately, Sweetwater has been on
top of the situation and has done much to get BFD to respond.

The BFD folks say my problems are specific to the Digi002. I'm not convinced.
I hope they can firm up the software. Developing software, given the wide
variances that exist, is not easy. I hope BFD can muster the resources to
tweek the software and hang in there.

They do offer velocity sensitivity.

Regards,


Ty





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 6:04:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Those do sound very convincing. The splashes and cymbals are the only
> thing that sound a little funky in just a few spots[..]

I think its up to your trigwork.. there's *alot* of samples with different
velocities and hitpositioning..

> Don't you need to trigger the samples and do so with proper
> velocity, etc.?

Yep, thereĀ“s no easy way around this (or at least not if you want it to
sound decent), We use a built in midisequencer in the recordingsoftware..
much like the one found in cubase, thats really a matter of taste in the
end.. But the cool thing about DFH is that it includes some humanizing
features that actually works well..

/M
!