Mic'ing upright piano in home studio

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm looking for some advice recording an upright piano at home. I'll
be recording into either of:

Roland VS880EX DAW
PC (Echo Gina) though Behringer UB802 Eurorack mixer (as preamp).

It's an upper-middle quality (Schimmel), well-maintained full upright.

(This should give you a general idea of budget and expected quality,
although there's no hard dollar amount I'm sticking to.)

Musically, it will be mostly in a rock context but could be anything
except serious classical.

Due to space constraints, I can't record from the soundboard side. So
far I've been most satisfied with removing the lower panel and placing
mics under the keyboard, one near the tenor strings and one near the
bass; I'd like some pointers on finding the best mic placement.

I have one AKG C1000S mic, so I might:
*Buy another C1000S.
*Buy a matched pair of different condensers.
*Buy a stereo condenser (Opinions on Rode NT4 in this application?)
*Something else.

Ideas? TIA!

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Rick Ruskin wrote:
> I prop the lid up, remove the top front panel, and mic my upright
from
> out in the room. I make a point of overdubbing the piano so leakage
> and space for other players/gear is ever an issue.

How does the bass end turn out that way? One reason I bought this
piano is because it has a really great low end, and I don't want to
thin the sound out. I tend to play left-of-center (although I have
long arms).

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 1 Mar 2005 12:08:52 -0800, "Theodore" <heytud@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Rick Ruskin wrote:
>> I prop the lid up, remove the top front panel, and mic my upright
>from
>> out in the room. I make a point of overdubbing the piano so leakage
>> and space for other players/gear is ever an issue.
>
>How does the bass end turn out that way? One reason I bought this
>piano is because it has a really great low end, and I don't want to
>thin the sound out. I tend to play left-of-center (although I have
>long arms).


The low end sounds fine. I find that the distance captures a much
more pleasing character than if I mic close up. BTW- I use a pair of
Sennheiser mkh 40's and pan/eq as desired for whatever track I'm
working on.


Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 1 Mar 2005 11:32:00 -0800, "Theodore" <heytud@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I'm looking for some advice recording an upright piano at home. I'll
>be recording into either of:
>
>Roland VS880EX DAW
>PC (Echo Gina) though Behringer UB802 Eurorack mixer (as preamp).
>
>It's an upper-middle quality (Schimmel), well-maintained full upright.
>
>(This should give you a general idea of budget and expected quality,
>although there's no hard dollar amount I'm sticking to.)
>
>Musically, it will be mostly in a rock context but could be anything
>except serious classical.
>
>Due to space constraints, I can't record from the soundboard side. So
>far I've been most satisfied with removing the lower panel and placing
>mics under the keyboard, one near the tenor strings and one near the
>bass; I'd like some pointers on finding the best mic placement.
>
>I have one AKG C1000S mic, so I might:
>*Buy another C1000S.
>*Buy a matched pair of different condensers.
>*Buy a stereo condenser (Opinions on Rode NT4 in this application?)
>*Something else.

Is there a place in the room where it sounds good? Try a mic, or a
stereo pair there.

If it's not a good-sounding room, mic close. You've basically got a
choice of pointing mics at the front, into the open top lid or hanging
them down the back. Try them all. Which sound good to you?

How did you arrive at your preferred position? What is better about
that position compared with, say, micing from above?

Pulling a piano even a few inches away from the wall can drastically
affect the sound.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Martin Quinn wrote:
> After a lot of mike moving and experimentation I find that miking the
back
> of the piano (the soundboard side) with my two KM184s split apart
about 4
> feet and about 12-18 inches from the piano gives me a very pleasing
sound
> from my Yamaha.

Unfortunately I can't get the mics at the back of the piano.

> It also tames down or even eliminates sounds from footpedals

If there's noise from the footpedals, you might want to have a piano
tech adjust the trapwork.

> and the player's breathing or movement on the stool which I found to
all be
> problems when miking the piano by taking of the front board and the
board at
> the feet. Is this a usual technique?

I also tried micing at the top, but I don't like the hammer noise or
breathing either. At the bottom, you're still getting primarily the
soundboard's vibrations, the problem there is as you said: the stool
noise.

> I always found sticking the mics close to the hammers facing into the
piano
> from the players view gave a VERY tubby bass end. Especially on
certain
> notes that resonated.

There was an unevenness I got micing underneath. I guess the mic was
too close to the strings themselves.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Fletcher wrote:
> Pair of AEA R-84's or Coles 4038's... same positioning you're using
> now.

So are you saying it's crucial to use a ribbon? Are there any
less-expensive ribbon mics you might give a passing grade to?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2 Mar 2005 11:55:07 -0800, "Theodore" <heytud@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Laurence Payne wrote:
>> How did you arrive at your preferred position? What is better about
>> that position compared with, say, micing from above?
>
>Didn't like the hammer noise when the mics were above.
>
>> Pulling a piano even a few inches away from the wall can drastically
>> affect the sound.
>
>Unfortunately, it also blocks the bathroom door!

That being the case, you could try a sheet of foam, dacron wool, etc
between the piano and the wall, compressed a little. That will damp
resonances in the wall, the airspace and the soundboard (all good, but
if the soundboard damping turns out to be excessive, you may need to
back off the compression a bit).

You could also augment the mic sound with a magnetic pickup.

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1109795053.865462.166650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> heytud@yahoo.com writes:

> So are you saying it's crucial to use a ribbon? Are there any
> less-expensive ribbon mics you might give a passing grade to?

THERE IS NOTHING CRUCIAL ABOUT USING ANY PARTICULAR MIC FOR ANYTHING!

Just use what you got and put it wherever it sounds good. If you wait
to start (or finish) until you have what everyone suggests you'll
never get the job done.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <1109795053.865462.166650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
heytud@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > So are you saying it's crucial to use a ribbon? Are there any
> > less-expensive ribbon mics you might give a passing grade to?
>
> THERE IS NOTHING CRUCIAL ABOUT USING ANY PARTICULAR MIC FOR ANYTHING!
>
> Just use what you got and put it wherever it sounds good. If you wait
> to start (or finish) until you have what everyone suggests you'll
> never get the job done.


I believe that what Mike is implying is that there is no point
agonizing about which mic you should use when you can't move the piano
in case it blocks the bathroom door.

It is hard to get a good recorded sound from an upright even under the
best of circumstances. It is harder still in a small living room (and
I'm assuming that it's small, because you can't move the piano a few
inches from the wall).

Any decent modern synth will get you a better piano sound than you will
get recording an upright in the room as you describe it. Personally, I
would prefer *playing* the upright, but I wouldn't bother recording it.


>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Invariably whatever you do is basically going to be an attempt to fix
the
> problems with the room and the piano.

Definitely there's problems with the room, but not with the piano. I
just want the recording to reflect as much as possible what I hear
while playing.

> That's just the way the situation is,
> and as a result you're going to have to spend some time trying
things.

I guess so. As long as I don't have to spend a lot of money on
microphones that aren't right for the job.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Theodore <heytud@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Invariably whatever you do is basically going to be an attempt to fix
>the
>> problems with the room and the piano.
>
>Definitely there's problems with the room, but not with the piano. I
>just want the recording to reflect as much as possible what I hear
>while playing.

I've never heard an upright that didn't have problems. And I bet a nickel
that if the recording DID reflect what you heard while playing, you would
not be happy.

To find out, try a pair of binaural mikes while playing the piano, then
play it back on headphones. I guarantee it will sound just like what
you heard. I also guarantee that when you are not having the process of
playing to distract you, you'll hear all kinds of things wrong.

>> That's just the way the situation is,
>> and as a result you're going to have to spend some time trying
>things.
>
>I guess so. As long as I don't have to spend a lot of money on
>microphones that aren't right for the job.

That's what rental places are for.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Mar 2005 09:21:53 -0800, "Theodore" <heytud@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Invariably whatever you do is basically going to be an attempt to fix
>the
>> problems with the room and the piano.
>
>Definitely there's problems with the room, but not with the piano. I
>just want the recording to reflect as much as possible what I hear
>while playing.

"The room and the piano" is a single entity.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Theodore wrote:

> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>>Perhaps either you should rearrange your studio or consider trading
>>the upright piano for an electronic keyboard that has a pretty good
>>piano sound. It certainly isn't doing you much good where it is.
>
>
> I think you're missing the point... I love the way the piano sounds to
> me while I'm playing it. The studio is my home and the location is the
> best I can do until I have a bigger home. I was just trying to get
> ideas to cut down on trial-and-error in recording.
>
> Trade it for a keyboard indeed! You must not be a pianist!
>

ROMplers solve an awful lot of problems...

--
Les Cargill

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:28:57 -0500, Theodore wrote
(in article <1109870937.893841.231940@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> ):

> Mike Rivers wrote:
>> THERE IS NOTHING CRUCIAL ABOUT USING ANY PARTICULAR MIC FOR ANYTHING!
>>
>> Just use what you got and put it wherever it sounds good. If you wait
>> to start (or finish) until you have what everyone suggests you'll
>> never get the job done.
>
> Fortunately, I'm not waiting for anything. The actual "job" was done a
> couple weeks ago with what I had; the results were okay.
>

So I guess that means you really weren't happy with the results or you
wouldn't be asking for help here.

You now know what I was referring to by the sound in your head not being able
to be captured easily. Welcome to our Hell.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:21:53 -0500, Theodore wrote
(in article <1109870513.203479.82040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> ):

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Invariably whatever you do is basically going to be an attempt to fix
> the
>> problems with the room and the piano.
>
> Definitely there's problems with the room, but not with the piano. I
> just want the recording to reflect as much as possible what I hear
> while playing.
>
>> That's just the way the situation is,
>> and as a result you're going to have to spend some time trying
> things.
>
> I guess so. As long as I don't have to spend a lot of money on
> microphones that aren't right for the job.
>

OK, stop bickering guys. First, Theodore, the point they're trying to get t
you to consider is that what you hear in your head (piano-wise) may not be
capturable by mics.

Don't make me go into psycho-acoustics, just work with me here.

If you th

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com