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Hi-Fi speakers for classical guitar concert

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Anonymous
March 7, 2005 5:05:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

My guitar teacher is the executive director of the local classical
guitar society, and is responsible for booking and setting up monthly
concerts with guest guitarists. John Williams (guitar virtuoso, not
the Star Wars guy) is slated to play next month, and so my teacher is
making arragements now, one of which is to provide sound reinforcement
with "hi-fi, not pa" speakers. He isn't entirely sure what exactly
they have in mind (needless to say, neither do I), and when he called
around to the biggest equipment renters in town, he was told they, and
probably all the other stores in town, don't have anything "hi-fi" in
stock. So my questions are (1) What kind of speakers is he likely
using for his concerts? Is there a "hi-fi, not pa" speaker out there
specifically made or designated for this kind of thing? and (2) Where
could my teacher find these? Thanks.
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 8:23:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Why is sound reinforcement for an acoustic instrument needed? Unless the venue
is huge, there's no need for "enhancement."
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 8:46:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

jeffontheleft <marcel.graf@gmail.com> wrote:
>My guitar teacher is the executive director of the local classical
>guitar society, and is responsible for booking and setting up monthly
>concerts with guest guitarists. John Williams (guitar virtuoso, not
>the Star Wars guy) is slated to play next month, and so my teacher is
>making arragements now, one of which is to provide sound reinforcement
>with "hi-fi, not pa" speakers. He isn't entirely sure what exactly
>they have in mind (needless to say, neither do I), and when he called
>around to the biggest equipment renters in town, he was told they, and
>probably all the other stores in town, don't have anything "hi-fi" in
>stock. So my questions are (1) What kind of speakers is he likely
>using for his concerts? Is there a "hi-fi, not pa" speaker out there
>specifically made or designated for this kind of thing? and (2) Where
>could my teacher find these? Thanks.

What's your room, what's your budget?

Basically, I gather your teacher doesn't like the way horn speakers
sound. Is that basically it?

There are plenty of non-horn speakers out there available for PA work.
And there are some horns out there that actually don't sound like horns,
but for the most part they aren't cheap.

If you can live with the narrow patterns, SLS, Stage Accompany, and
Alcons all make nice ribbon speaker systems for sound reinforcement.
If you can live with the really wide pattern, Tannoy makes some small
coaxial systems that are surprisingly non-honky as horns go. All of
these can be rented but may have to be flown in.

Are we talking about a rental budget of a thousand dollars in a small
room, or are we talking about a budget of ten thousand dollars in a
large auditorium?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Related resources
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 1:44:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Please, use someone with sound reinforcement experience. You are booking a
"headliner" in their particular genre, and frankly your guitar teacher has
the right idea, but trying to actually mix home audio speakers into this
type of situation is asking for problems.
There is no doubt that a quality sound system is needed.
Let's see what can happen via this forum.

First, where are you located?
What type of venue is the concert taking place in, and how many will it
hold?
Is this strictly a recital with Mr. Williams in a solo capacity, or will
there be say piano accompaniment?
Has anyone from Mr. Williams management forwarded any technical
requirements(known as "riders")?

Your first move should be to a (hopefully) reputable local sound system
provider-no Guitar Center rentals, no brother in law's buddies, etc.

With more info up front, more folks here can help.

Best regards,

John Halliburton
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 5:24:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:23:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
<williams@nwlink.com> wrote:

>Why is sound reinforcement for an acoustic instrument needed? Unless the venue
>is huge, there's no need for "enhancement."

As a hick in the sticks, I do this more lately than I'd have imagined.
John and Scott have already raised the pertinent questions (left,
inevitably, out of the OP's post), and you've raised the final
question of propriety.

Last season we did Rigoletto with five musicians plus conductor in the
pit: two electronic keyboard players (Bulgarian), an Arkansan
percussianist, and fiddle, bass fiddle, and conductor from Poland.

I mic'd the fiddle and bass fiddle (with SM-57's !) and kept the
electronic widgets out of the house sound. No keeping the percussion
out of anything, as always.

Bleed and good room acoustics let me get away with it, and allowed
an actual advantage, to my ears anyway. Our primitive, no-effects
SR gave us a room in the mix for the singers' voices that whole
bands sometimes don't give. I felt it supported, rather than competed,
with the singers.

Cost constraints being what they are, SR folks may need to approach
this issue as generously as we can. And there also may be a glass-
half-full possibility there. Maybe.

Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck
"Say! One of you guys know how to Madison?"
-Brad in _The Rocky Horror Picture Show_
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 7:10:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:112pvk6i9kqjt30@corp.supernews.com...
> Why is sound reinforcement for an acoustic instrument needed? Unless the
> venue
> is huge, there's no need for "enhancement."

If the gig is anything larger than a house concert at someone's residence,
with twenty guests, I'd show up with sound gear. I just wouldn't risk
having paying customers not hear Mr. Williams play-I would most certainly
tailor the rig to size of the venue.

Best regards,

John
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 8:01:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm sure Mr. Williams travels with a contract rider with
detailed specifications. I'm going to guess that your use of
quotes in your description of the speakers may be from that
specification.

If 'twere I, I'd get with Mr. Williams' people and query
them as to what would be acceptable. They will be glad to
tell you.

Now, - this is going to sound heretical - if you don't have
to amplify heavily and the audience is not large in a large
room, you can use good quality "hi-fi" speakers. I once
amplfied a choral concert in a 40' X 60' room with an
audience of 75 or so with a pair of Electrovoice Sentry
100As. I attached stand mounts to them, put them on stands
and carefully amplified them with a QSC 150 watt amp. Had
several comments after the show wondering what the speakers
were. They said they were the most natural sounding speakers
they'd heard in such a setting.

But I've been doing this a while, and I know what I can get
away with, and had the hardware on hand.

Get more info on the tech rider and find somebody in your
area willing to maybe work a little "outside the box". A
couple of critical customers of mine specify Apogee speakers
for their shows. That might be an option for you, but put a
potential list together and run it past Williams' folks.

Good luck. Sounds like a nice show.



TM

jeffontheleft wrote:
>
> My guitar teacher is the executive director of the local classical
> guitar society, and is responsible for booking and setting up monthly
> concerts with guest guitarists. John Williams (guitar virtuoso, not
> the Star Wars guy) is slated to play next month, and so my teacher is
> making arragements now, one of which is to provide sound reinforcement
> with "hi-fi, not pa" speakers. He isn't entirely sure what exactly
> they have in mind (needless to say, neither do I), and when he called
> around to the biggest equipment renters in town, he was told they, and
> probably all the other stores in town, don't have anything "hi-fi" in
> stock. So my questions are (1) What kind of speakers is he likely
> using for his concerts? Is there a "hi-fi, not pa" speaker out there
> specifically made or designated for this kind of thing? and (2) Where
> could my teacher find these? Thanks.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 2:29:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

A classical guitar in a smaller concert hall doesn't need amplification
but I have played with lots of guitar players on tours etc. and some
used something called the "Bolin board" (from memory) A unit made by a
guitar builder to slightly reinforce the guitar sound, but like
mentioned I'm totally sure You will get the answers You need from John
Williams himself or his agent.
Didn't Sara K use B&W Nautilus 801's for a concert tour? I'm sure some
home speaker systems like that would also work with excellent miking.

--
Joakim Wendel
Remove obvious mail JUNK block for mail reply.

My homepage : http://violinist.nu
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 2:41:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <oviktig-F4CEC9.11295808032005@dos.canit.se>,
Joakim Wendel <oviktig@bostreammail.net> wrote:

> A classical guitar in a smaller concert hall doesn't need amplification
> but I have played with lots of guitar players on tours etc. and some
> used something called the "Bolin board" (from memory) A unit made by a
> guitar builder to slightly reinforce the guitar sound, but like
> mentioned I'm totally sure You will get the answers You need from John
> Williams himself or his agent.
> Didn't Sara K use B&W Nautilus 801's for a concert tour? I'm sure some
> home speaker systems like that would also work with excellent miking.

Hmmm... old news i guess, i searched for the Bolin thingy
http://www.vintage-guitars.se/1970s_Georg_Bolin_Tonbord...
is a picture of the thing... I guess you will want something more up to
date. Anyway it was built by Georg Bolin and is 800$
--
Joakim Wendel
Remove obvious mail JUNK block for mail reply.

My homepage : http://violinist.nu
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:23:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> If you can live with the really wide pattern, Tannoy makes some small
> coaxial systems that are surprisingly non-honky as horns go. All of
> these can be rented but may have to be flown in.

Standing on a limb I suggest the Mackie SRM350 is devoid of honk, Yes, I
said it. And no, I couldn't believe it either, at first. Now, if Mackie
could just get some consistency with noise elimination in these
things...

--
ha
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:23:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Check with Mr. Williams' booking agent or manager - there should a contract
rider (actually, it should have been delivered with the performance
contract).

Then all things will become clear to you.
--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com


"Joakim Wendel" <oviktig@bostreammail.net> wrote in message
news:o viktig-F4CEC9.11295808032005@dos.canit.se...
> A classical guitar in a smaller concert hall doesn't need amplification
> but I have played with lots of guitar players on tours etc. and some
> used something called the "Bolin board" (from memory) A unit made by a
> guitar builder to slightly reinforce the guitar sound, but like
> mentioned I'm totally sure You will get the answers You need from John
> Williams himself or his agent.
> Didn't Sara K use B&W Nautilus 801's for a concert tour? I'm sure some
> home speaker systems like that would also work with excellent miking.
>
> --
> Joakim Wendel
> Remove obvious mail JUNK block for mail reply.
>
> My homepage : http://violinist.nu
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 12:58:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"jeffontheleft" <marcel.graf@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110233130.901467.298550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> My guitar teacher is the executive director of the local classical
> guitar society, and is responsible for booking and setting up monthly
> concerts with guest guitarists. John Williams (guitar virtuoso, not
> the Star Wars guy) is slated to play next month, and so my teacher is
> making arragements now, one of which is to provide sound reinforcement
> with "hi-fi, not pa" speakers. He isn't entirely sure what exactly
> they have in mind (needless to say, neither do I), and when he called
> around to the biggest equipment renters in town, he was told they, and
> probably all the other stores in town, don't have anything "hi-fi" in
> stock. So my questions are (1) What kind of speakers is he likely
> using for his concerts? Is there a "hi-fi, not pa" speaker out there
> specifically made or designated for this kind of thing? and (2) Where
> could my teacher find these? Thanks.
>

The closest thing to hifi gear I'd ever consider using for SR would be
studio monitors, and it shouldn't be too hard to rent a pair of Genelecs.
Martin Logans would look killer, but who'd be daft enough to rent a pair
out?
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 3:55:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Zigakly <zigakly@nospam.cx> wrote:
>The closest thing to hifi gear I'd ever consider using for SR would be
>studio monitors, and it shouldn't be too hard to rent a pair of Genelecs.
>Martin Logans would look killer, but who'd be daft enough to rent a pair
>out?

Most of the higher grade studio monitors are basically ruggedized hifi
gear, and you need that ruggedness for anything being used for PA because
sometimes people knock microphone stands over.

Planar speakers don't work at ALL for SR. I have seen folks try it.
The rear lobe is just really problematic.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 2:50:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:D 0q1mr$j7h$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Zigakly <zigakly@nospam.cx> wrote:
> >The closest thing to hifi gear I'd ever consider using for SR would be
> >studio monitors, and it shouldn't be too hard to rent a pair of Genelecs.
> >Martin Logans would look killer, but who'd be daft enough to rent a pair
> >out?
>
> Most of the higher grade studio monitors are basically ruggedized hifi
> gear, and you need that ruggedness for anything being used for PA because
> sometimes people knock microphone stands over.
>
> Planar speakers don't work at ALL for SR. I have seen folks try it.
> The rear lobe is just really problematic.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Well I assumed the purpose was so it would look good. If the SR
requirements allow for the use of hifi speakers at all, I can't see more
than 50W being driven total, can't see feedback rejection being a prime
concern. Oh, but I suppose he'll be playing guitar into a vintage omni
condenser too...
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 3:44:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

jeffontheleft wrote:
> My guitar teacher is the executive director of the local classical
> guitar society, and is responsible for booking and setting up monthly
> concerts with guest guitarists. John Williams (guitar virtuoso, not
> the Star Wars guy) is slated to play next month, and so my teacher is
> making arragements now, one of which is to provide sound reinforcement
> with "hi-fi, not pa" speakers. He isn't entirely sure what exactly
> they have in mind (needless to say, neither do I), and when he called
> around to the biggest equipment renters in town, he was told they, and
> probably all the other stores in town, don't have anything "hi-fi" in
> stock. So my questions are (1) What kind of speakers is he likely
> using for his concerts? Is there a "hi-fi, not pa" speaker out there
> specifically made or designated for this kind of thing? and (2) Where
> could my teacher find these? Thanks.

Nobody has mentioned the Bose "Personalized Amplification
System" which, despite the rolling eyes that occur when the
name Bose is mentioned here, are reputed to sound pretty
darned good in just this kind of application.

http://tinyurl.com/4329p


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 12:20:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I noticed that it has phantom power for mic inputs, but it is 24V. Who
is using 24V phantom power? It seems like almost everything is 48V.
I'm curious because my wife is a classical guitarist and sometimes want
a little amplification when working with an orchestra or large choir.

Paul
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 8:42:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Paul Brown" <cycle.paul@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1110561623.151105.126680@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I noticed that it has phantom power for mic inputs, but it is 24V. Who
> is using 24V phantom power? It seems like almost everything is 48V.
> I'm curious because my wife is a classical guitarist and sometimes want
> a little amplification when working with an orchestra or large choir.

Many microphones these days will work on 24V; the Oktava MC/MK012's will,
and the Shure SM81 works on anything from 9-52V. On the other hand, anything
with "Neumann" on it almost certainly won't.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 9:22:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1110561623.151105.126680@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> cycle.paul@comcast.net writes:

> I noticed that it has phantom power for mic inputs, but it is 24V. Who
> is using 24V phantom power? It seems like almost everything is 48V.

It's one of the standard voltages, and some mics will work fine on
24V, but many require 48. A mixer or preamp with 24V phantom power is
one that isn't going to work with everything and should be avoided
unless you're also going to be providing the mics and you know that
the mics you want to use will operate on 24V phantom power.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 10:01:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain wrote:

> Nobody has mentioned the Bose "Personalized Amplification
> System" which, despite the rolling eyes that occur when the
> name Bose is mentioned here, are reputed to sound pretty
> darned good in just this kind of application.

I heard that system in Austin and I'd take SRM350's over it any day, and
everyday.

--
ha
March 12, 2005 6:27:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3/11/05 3:44 AM, in article d0rlq0024av@enews1.newsguy.com, "Bob Cain"
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>
>
> jeffontheleft wrote:
>> My guitar teacher is the executive director of the local classical
>> guitar society, and is responsible for booking and setting up monthly
>> concerts with guest guitarists. John Williams (guitar virtuoso, not
>> the Star Wars guy) is slated to play next month, and so my teacher is
>> making arragements now, one of which is to provide sound reinforcement
>> with "hi-fi, not pa" speakers. He isn't entirely sure what exactly
>> they have in mind (needless to say, neither do I), and when he called
>> around to the biggest equipment renters in town, he was told they, and
>> probably all the other stores in town, don't have anything "hi-fi" in
>> stock. So my questions are (1) What kind of speakers is he likely
>> using for his concerts? Is there a "hi-fi, not pa" speaker out there
>> specifically made or designated for this kind of thing? and (2) Where
>> could my teacher find these? Thanks.
>
> Nobody has mentioned the Bose "Personalized Amplification
> System" which, despite the rolling eyes that occur when the
> name Bose is mentioned here, are reputed to sound pretty
> darned good in just this kind of application.

BING! (John's hand goes up in agreement, and he's willing to take half the
arrows aimed in Bob's direction!)

>
> http://tinyurl.com/4329p
>
>
> Bob
!