Tonight Show - Is that as good as a clip-on horn mic gets?

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Doc wrote:
> but I noticed the other night that they've got him blowing into
clip-on mics.
> to my ears, those clip-ons have this funny, stuffy sound, nowhere
near as good (as)
>blowing into an old RCA ribbon mic.. It's not as bad on the sax, but
really noticeable on
> the trumpet and 'bone. Apparently that's as good as they get?

mic position is critical, when placed right it, allows the full sound
of the instrument
to reach "maturity" and it is this not fully grown sound that you
hear.
it is a compromise, the amount of control the audio engineer has
is better with these clip on mics then with a mic on a mic stand.
(the mic/horn position is fixed, the musician is free to roam)

dale

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Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Doc <docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote:
> >Regarding the Tonight Show, I know Chuck Findley is a fine player
but I
> >noticed the other night that they've got him blowing into clip-on
mics. I
> >would think they've got the best stuff, but to my ears, those
clip-ons
> >always have this funny, stuffy sound, nowhere near as good as the
horns
> >sounded on the Carson Tonight show. I don't know what the section
used but
> >I'm pretty sure Doc was blowing into an old RCA ribbon mic. I don't
think
> >Leno's band originally used those clip ons when Sal Marquez was the
trumpet.
> >I believe they've adopted them along the way.
> >
> >The times I've heard Chicago on the Today Show, the horns use clip
ons also,
> >with the same results. It's not as bad on the sax, but really
noticeable on
> >the trumpet and 'bone. Apparently that's as good as they get?
>
> You get better gain before feedback with the clip-ons, and they are
also
> less sensitive to performers with poor mike technique. Yes, they
have
> really awful tone quality (since most of the sound doesn't come out
of
> the bell), but sometimes the feedback issue outweighs everything
else.
> --scott

There are additional issues as well. Up close to the bell like that,
wired or wireless, the dynamic range is immense, and the SPLs are
stupid high. Not a whole lot of mics will handle an up-close trumpet
gracefully. Then, there's the issue of wireless (if they are using
one). All analog wireless systems compand the audio, which further
reduces quality and does not fare well with signals like trumpet.

I agree with Scott that sometimes GBF is the most important issue, but
in this case, on TV, they should be able to design around it. It may
also be an issue of monitoring (i.e. the player wants to hear himself
at all costs). Nah - that never happens.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

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There are parts of the direct sound at 2 inches you wouldn't normally
hear even at say 3 feet away. You hear a lot more spittle at 3 inches
for one thing. Plus the way a horn couples with the outside world is a
factor. If you listen to a horn driver at 2 inches away it sounds like
dog poo, get 6 feet away and it sounds like it should.

In most cases a clip on works just fine for sound reinforcement, makes
life a lot easier. In a recording session though there a many better
ways to capture the horn.


Chris Whealy wrote:
> tymish@hotmail.com wrote:
> > This is true. But no one listens to a trumpet right at the bell. At
> > least anyone who wants to keep thier hearing. Things sound
different as
> > sound propagates.
> >
>
> That's true, but even then, the average mic position for a horn
player
> is much closer to the instrument than any audience member.
>
> The "things sound different as sound propagates" is true only to the
> extent that the further away you are from the instrument, the less
you
> will hear its direct sound, and the more you will hear the general
room
> sound.
>
> I'd still like some clarification about the problems created by a
> clipped mic, because this is a solution I have been considering for
the
> horn section at our church.
>
> Chris W
>
> --
> The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
> but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
> --

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tymish@hotmail.com wrote:
> There are parts of the direct sound at 2 inches you wouldn't normally
> hear even at say 3 feet away. You hear a lot more spittle at 3 inches
> for one thing. Plus the way a horn couples with the outside world is a
> factor. If you listen to a horn driver at 2 inches away it sounds like
> dog poo, get 6 feet away and it sounds like it should.

OK, that makes sense

> In most cases a clip on works just fine for sound reinforcement, makes
> life a lot easier. In a recording session though there a many better
> ways to capture the horn.

The problem we have is both one of limited space (we've got the entire
horn section in a relatively small area so they need to be reasonably
close mic'ed to give decent separation), plus the fact that a service
has to be both amplified for general PA in the church, but is also
recorded for TV broadcast.

We've ended up with a hybrid PA/recording setup. I think that under
these circumstances, clipped mics for the horns would be an acceptable
solution.

Thanks for you help

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
--

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

tymish@hotmail.com wrote:
> There are parts of the direct sound at 2 inches you wouldn't normally
> hear even at say 3 feet away. You hear a lot more spittle at 3 inches
> for one thing. Plus the way a horn couples with the outside world is
a
> factor. If you listen to a horn driver at 2 inches away it sounds
like
> dog poo, get 6 feet away and it sounds like it should.
>
> In most cases a clip on works just fine for sound reinforcement,
makes
> life a lot easier. In a recording session though there a many better
> ways to capture the horn.
>
>
> Chris Whealy wrote:
> > tymish@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > This is true. But no one listens to a trumpet right at the bell.
At
> > > least anyone who wants to keep thier hearing. Things sound
> different as
> > > sound propagates.
> > >
> >
> > That's true, but even then, the average mic position for a horn
> player
> > is much closer to the instrument than any audience member.
> >
> > The "things sound different as sound propagates" is true only to
the
> > extent that the further away you are from the instrument, the less
> you
> > will hear its direct sound, and the more you will hear the general
> room
> > sound.
> >
> > I'd still like some clarification about the problems created by a
> > clipped mic, because this is a solution I have been considering for
> the
> > horn section at our church.
> >

The other factor is that with low frequencies, the trumpet is nearly an
omni radiator, and the higher the frequency of output, the more
directional (just like about everything else). The effect of this is
that for a given energy level, the trumpet will project much farther
with high frequencies, while at low frequencies, the energy is
dispersed much more quickly... so when you close mic a trumpet, you get
a lot more lows that you do from farther away.

When I was touring with the Air Force Jazz Band (Airmen of Note) I
would typically put a single mic between each two trumpet players. This
would place the mic a bit off axis (to avoid spittle sound) and a bit
further away. Sometimes, they asked to have a single mic for each
player, but the sound was far better with a mic per each two guys
(IMO).

The mic I used at the time was the Sennheiser MD409. Low profile (side
address) much more forgiving than a condenser mic, and a great sound on
horns. It's a shame they don't make them any more. Didn't try the e609
Silver (they weren't made yet at that time) but it may be worth an
audition.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

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Doc <docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>
>> You get better gain before feedback with the clip-ons, and they are also
>> less sensitive to performers with poor mike technique. Yes, they have
>> really awful tone quality (since most of the sound doesn't come out of
>> the bell), but sometimes the feedback issue outweighs everything else.
>
>Well, from Steven Allen until Leno's reign, the Tonight Show band seemed to
>do fine with "real" mics for about 40 years. Btw, Findley used to play on
>Carson's band and is a well respected session player. He can't possibly be
>truly satisfied with what he sounds like with that mic. I guess he's making
>enough coin to not bitch about it too loudly if he's not.

So what is different? Are the stage levels outrageously higher than they
used to be in previous incarnations of the band?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news1afvc$1lj$1@panix2.panix.com...

> So what is different? Are the stage levels outrageously higher than they
> used to be in previous incarnations of the band?

No, as I've been whining about previously in this thread, the trumpet sound
is severely lacking due to that clip on mic.

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Doc <docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>news1afvc$1lj$1@panix2.panix.com...
>
>> So what is different? Are the stage levels outrageously higher than they
>> used to be in previous incarnations of the band?
>
>No, as I've been whining about previously in this thread, the trumpet sound
>is severely lacking due to that clip on mic.

Right, but WHAT is different that caused them to go the clip-on mike route?
I am assuming it wasn't a random decision, but they did it to solve a
particular problem (like one brought on by higher stage levels).
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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they are mixing 5.1 dolby
and need absolute control
or it is how it sounds on their car stereo when in trade school.

(they are running auto tune, with a little eq at around.....)

dale