How to get that "suoer compressed drums in a big room sound"

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

William J. <WillsJS@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I haven't asked anything in a while, but I have something that's
>been wearing me out lately. I've recorded drums onto 3 tracks, with 3
>mics--one for kick, and 2 overheads placed behind the drummer kind of
>off the sides, looking over each shoulder. The room has hard wood
>floors, and wood paneling on the walls. Basically what I want is that
>super compressed rooom sound--think of the intro to that Iggy Pop song
>"Lust for Life." My problem is everything I try makes the cymbals WAY
>too loud and overbearing. I am working in Nuendo and have plug-ins
>only.. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to go about getting that
>sound with what I already have recorded?

No. Move the overheads and retrack.

Put a finger in one ear and listen with the other. Move your head around.
Where you get a good balance of tom, snare, and cymbal, put the mikes.
Record a bit and listen. Pull the mikes back or move them forward as needed.
Raise them up for a little more cymbal and lower them for a little less.
Get the sound in the room.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Compressed Drums


Drum compressing and limiting is often used to control dynamic problems
and/or create a desired effect when I mix. When using a live
performance I tend to get excessive dynamics. For example: when the
drummer hits a kick drum and crash cymbal on the downbeat of a chorus,
even though the transient is of short time duration it will limit you
into how much level you can translate to a CD in mastering. This
transient causes headroom problems in getting them to sound even in a
mix and maestering effectively. Because the duration of the transient
is so short (2-8ms) it is hard to correct this dynamic problem through
manual fader riding. A good solution for this is to bus all the drums
to two tracks and bring this two track stereo sub-mix of the drums back
into 2 more additional inputs. At this stage you can insert limiting
to control the transient. I often incorporate an attack time of less
then 1millisecond due to the transient nature of the envelope. The
release time will also be very fast (10-15ms) so the only transient is
affected and the rest of the performance is left untouched. A limiting
ratio of 8:1 or higher usually works for me. Remember to allow
headroom so some amount of the transient will pass through, rather than
being hard limited, which will maintain some dynamics. The signal that
I am limiting is usually 2-8ms and is really only mid-high end noise,
not much tone happenning yet. Some people say that the musical or
resonance part of a signal does not kick in until about 20ms. I do
this by fiirst setting a limiting ratio, with a fast attack time and a
fast release time. Next, I set the threshold to a setting where the
limited audio information is engaged so that I know that it is working
but sounding transparent to the ear. The goal here is to limit only
this fast transient without affecting the resonance of the drum sound.

Another advantageous use in dynamic control is getting my drums to
sound punchier. This is achieved by first eliminating the random
transients and then inserting compression with a ratio 4:1 to 8:1. The
attack time is anywhere between 20-50 ms which allows the louder
attacks to pass hrough unaffected. Once the attack is cleared the
compressor will kick in, lowering the sustain part of the drum signal.
Next, I set the release time (100-200ms) so the sustain part of the
signal is compressed and decays until the approach of the next
transient. When I sub-mix the drums, I also insert the stereo link
function on the comp/limiter.

In dealing with dynamic control on separate drums allow yourself to
create a certain characteristics to achieve great sounds. With snare
drum a common problem is getting a good attack but with no sustain
which causes the drum to sound inconsistent and weak. The problem here
is that even though the attack of the drum is heard on a consistent
basis the length and level of the sustain changes randomly. In dealing
with this problem split the snare drum over two input channels. Over
the first input try to maximize the transient quality of the snare drum
by utilizing transparent limiting and EQ in the mid range and high end.
On the other channel first gate the signal so all you hear is the
snare drum. Next insert a limiter with a very fast attack and very
fast release time. The goal here is to limit the attack of the signal
heavily. This allows the sustain to be consistent in level and adds
more length in duration. To add more body to the sound, EQ in the low
mid range and low end. Now mix in this signal with the more transient
snare drum signal which will allow you to add in more body to the snare
drum that will make it sound bigger and more consistent. In effect,
you are decreasing the dynamic range between the level of the transient
nature of the drum and the sustain properties of the drum.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I had a client bring in drum trax that were cymbal heavy and could not be
re-recorded. I had limited success duplicating the trax and using high/low
pass filters to try and separate the cymbals from the rest of the drums.
Cymbals lost some character and I needed to add midi kik & snare to bring
the trax to life which was alot of work but made for a decent mix.

Neil R

"Geoff Duncan" <nacnud@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:4238f837@clear.net.nz...
>
> "Matrixmusic" <kevindoylemusic@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:1111025829.807936.202450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Compressed Drums
>>
>>
>> Drum compressing and limiting is often used to control dynamic problems
>> and/or create a desired effect when I mix. When using a live
>> performance I tend to get excessive dynamics. For example: when the
>> drummer hits a kick drum and crash cymbal on the downbeat of a chorus,
>> even though the transient is of short time duration it will limit you
>> into how much level you can translate to a CD in mastering. This
>> transient causes headroom problems in getting them to sound even in a
>> mix and maestering effectively. Because the duration of the transient
>> is so short (2-8ms) it is hard to correct this dynamic problem through
>> manual fader riding. A good solution for this is to bus all the drums
>> to two tracks and bring this two track stereo sub-mix of the drums back
>> into 2 more additional inputs. At this stage you can insert limiting
>> to control the transient. I often incorporate an attack time of less
>> then 1millisecond due to the transient nature of the envelope. The
>> release time will also be very fast (10-15ms) so the only transient is
>> affected and the rest of the performance is left untouched. A limiting
>> ratio of 8:1 or higher usually works for me. Remember to allow
>> headroom so some amount of the transient will pass through, rather than
>> being hard limited, which will maintain some dynamics. The signal that
>> I am limiting is usually 2-8ms and is really only mid-high end noise,
>> not much tone happenning yet. Some people say that the musical or
>> resonance part of a signal does not kick in until about 20ms. I do
>> this by fiirst setting a limiting ratio, with a fast attack time and a
>> fast release time. Next, I set the threshold to a setting where the
>> limited audio information is engaged so that I know that it is working
>> but sounding transparent to the ear. The goal here is to limit only
>> this fast transient without affecting the resonance of the drum sound.
>>
>> Another advantageous use in dynamic control is getting my drums to
>> sound punchier. This is achieved by first eliminating the random
>> transients and then inserting compression with a ratio 4:1 to 8:1. The
>> attack time is anywhere between 20-50 ms which allows the louder
>> attacks to pass hrough unaffected. Once the attack is cleared the
>> compressor will kick in, lowering the sustain part of the drum signal.
>> Next, I set the release time (100-200ms) so the sustain part of the
>> signal is compressed and decays until the approach of the next
>> transient. When I sub-mix the drums, I also insert the stereo link
>> function on the comp/limiter.
>>
>> In dealing with dynamic control on separate drums allow yourself to
>> create a certain characteristics to achieve great sounds. With snare
>> drum a common problem is getting a good attack but with no sustain
>> which causes the drum to sound inconsistent and weak. The problem here
>> is that even though the attack of the drum is heard on a consistent
>> basis the length and level of the sustain changes randomly. In dealing
>> with this problem split the snare drum over two input channels. Over
>> the first input try to maximize the transient quality of the snare drum
>> by utilizing transparent limiting and EQ in the mid range and high end.
>> On the other channel first gate the signal so all you hear is the
>> snare drum. Next insert a limiter with a very fast attack and very
>> fast release time. The goal here is to limit the attack of the signal
>> heavily. This allows the sustain to be consistent in level and adds
>> more length in duration. To add more body to the sound, EQ in the low
>> mid range and low end. Now mix in this signal with the more transient
>> snare drum signal which will allow you to add in more body to the snare
>> drum that will make it sound bigger and more consistent. In effect,
>> you are decreasing the dynamic range between the level of the transient
>> nature of the drum and the sustain properties of the drum.
>>
>
> ^
> |
> |
>
> This is all well & good, but the proble is the balance captured by the
> positions of the original mics - too cymbal heavy.
>
> Lower the cymbals, point the mics away, whatever works for what you are
> wanting to hear - then you shouldnt need to do all the stuff written
> above.....and if your drummer beats the heck out of the cymbals, instead
> of
> 'playing' them , then you are probably sunk.....remind him that *he*
> controls the balance of the elements in the kit by the way he hits them.
>
> good luck!
>
> Geoff
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> William J. <WillsJS@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I haven't asked anything in a while, but I have something that's
> >been wearing me out lately. I've recorded drums onto 3 tracks, with
3
> >mics--one for kick, and 2 overheads placed behind the drummer kind
of
> >off the sides, looking over each shoulder. The room has hard wood
> >floors, and wood paneling on the walls. Basically what I want is
that
> >super compressed rooom sound--think of the intro to that Iggy Pop
song
> >"Lust for Life." My problem is everything I try makes the cymbals
WAY
> >too loud and overbearing. I am working in Nuendo and have plug-ins
> >only.. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to go about getting
that
> >sound with what I already have recorded?
>
> No. Move the overheads and retrack.
>
> Put a finger in one ear and listen with the other. Move your head
around.
> Where you get a good balance of tom, snare, and cymbal, put the
mikes.
> Record a bit and listen. Pull the mikes back or move them forward as
needed.
> Raise them up for a little more cymbal and lower them for a little
less.
> Get the sound in the room.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ditto, and get the drummer to lay of the cymbals a little too. 8 out of
10 times it's the player. Maybe mic from the front of the kit or try
the classic three mic technique.

http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

William J. wrote:
> HI,
> I haven't asked anything in a while, but I have something that's
> been wearing me out lately. I've recorded drums onto 3 tracks, with 3
> mics--one for kick, and 2 overheads placed behind the drummer kind of
> off the sides, looking over each shoulder. The room has hard wood
> floors, and wood paneling on the walls. Basically what I want is that
> super compressed rooom sound--think of the intro to that Iggy Pop
song
> "Lust for Life." My problem is everything I try makes the cymbals WAY
> too loud and overbearing. I am working in Nuendo and have plug-ins
> only.. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to go about getting that
> sound with what I already have recorded?
> thanks in advance
> Will J.

Create a group and use a send on each of your channels (prefade)to
create a suitable submix, eq this to taste to reduce the impact of your
cymbals. DON'T use the the inbuilt channel eq, use a plugin placed
before the compressor. If you've got nothing better use the "Q"
plugin.

For the compressor, try using Digitalfishfones Blockfish in "complex"
mode with really extreme settings, absolutely SMASHING the audio. Fine
tuning a very short release time is important here.


Bring this hypercompressed group up on the fader so that it's just
barely audible.