300 sample delay in Protools TDM?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi guys, I just recorded a click track on my Protools TDM system and
there's a 300 sample discrepancy between where the midi note originally
is and where the recorded audio clicks actually land. I had no idea it
would be this great of a lag.
The recording chain is as follows:
Quantized midi note to MOTU Pocket Express midi box to a Proteus/1 box,
direct out into a Protools analog input, recorded onto a PT track.
Is this a normal amount of delay? How do people deal with that? I
suppose if all the analog recording is done after all the midi is
finished, it wouldn't matter. But you wouldn't be able to snap any
analog notes to grid or they'd be 300 samples ahead.
I'm thinking of recording all midi parts including the click into
analog and then sliding them 300 samples earlier so that they land
right on the grid. And then recording the real analog parts to that
click.
I'm curious how y'all deal with this. 300 samples is huge! Or maybe
something's wrong with my system.
Thanks, Rick.
7 answers Last reply
More about sample delay protools
  1. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    rickymix wrote:
    > Hi guys, I just recorded a click track on my Protools TDM system and
    > there's a 300 sample discrepancy between where the midi note originally
    > is and where the recorded audio clicks actually land. I had no idea it
    > would be this great of a lag.
    > The recording chain is as follows:
    > Quantized midi note to MOTU Pocket Express midi box to a Proteus/1 box,
    > direct out into a Protools analog input, recorded onto a PT track.
    > Is this a normal amount of delay? How do people deal with that? I
    > suppose if all the analog recording is done after all the midi is
    > finished, it wouldn't matter. But you wouldn't be able to snap any
    > analog notes to grid or they'd be 300 samples ahead.
    > I'm thinking of recording all midi parts including the click into
    > analog and then sliding them 300 samples earlier so that they land
    > right on the grid. And then recording the real analog parts to that
    > click.
    > I'm curious how y'all deal with this. 300 samples is huge! Or maybe
    > something's wrong with my system.
    > Thanks, Rick.
    >

    This amount of MIDI delay with a Pocket Express plus a Proteus 1 is not
    at all surprising. I would guess that you are recording at 44.1. Nothing
    wrong with your system.

    It could have a subtle effect on the feel. I don't work with combined
    audio and MIDI any more, but I would slide the click back if I felt
    psychologically uncomfortable with the delay, and as you say, record the
    MIDI parts.

    Probably good to record the MIDI parts anyway because they will always
    be there on the tracks. (MIDI tracks can change if you subsequently mess
    with the sound modules in some way - such as editing patches or simply
    changing the volume knob.)

    Also, if you keep the MIDI tracks as MIDI, you will likely double the
    audible latency - once on recording and again on subsequent MIDI playback.

    Here are a couple of relevant websites, btw:

    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/May03/articles/logicnotes0503.asp

    http://gearslutz.com/board/archive/index.php3/t-3618.html

    -Naren
  2. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Thanks y'all for confirming what I suspected to be the case; that it's
    just midi latency. I'm glad it's not a fault in my system.

    Neil wrote:
    > do you really think that THAT small of a lag will make any kind of
    perceptible difference?

    It's about a twentieth of a sixteenth note, and yeah, I think that's
    huge! I'm not at all a stickler for things being mechanically perfect,
    but I want things to play back exactly where they were performed. I
    strongly feel that a crucial part of what makes a performance "magic"
    is where it's placed in time relative to the rest of the track; how it
    pushes and pulls relative to the groove. It's probably much more
    important than slight pitch variations.
    Or maybe that's just my bias after a decade of recording Motown's
    Holland Dozier Holland. :>)
    Thanks again everyone, Rick.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    most of thats midi delay - basically what you do is record a click - just
    1 - place it at measure one beat 1 and copy/paste to the next beat/measure
    and so on.


    "rickymix" <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:1111117783.890994.300290@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > Hi guys, I just recorded a click track on my Protools TDM system and
    > there's a 300 sample discrepancy between where the midi note originally
    > is and where the recorded audio clicks actually land. I had no idea it
    > would be this great of a lag.
    > The recording chain is as follows:
    > Quantized midi note to MOTU Pocket Express midi box to a Proteus/1 box,
    > direct out into a Protools analog input, recorded onto a PT track.
    > Is this a normal amount of delay? How do people deal with that? I
    > suppose if all the analog recording is done after all the midi is
    > finished, it wouldn't matter. But you wouldn't be able to snap any
    > analog notes to grid or they'd be 300 samples ahead.
    > I'm thinking of recording all midi parts including the click into
    > analog and then sliding them 300 samples earlier so that they land
    > right on the grid. And then recording the real analog parts to that
    > click.
    > I'm curious how y'all deal with this. 300 samples is huge! Or maybe
    > something's wrong with my system.
    > Thanks, Rick.
    >
  4. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    "rickymix" <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:1111117783.890994.300290@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > Hi guys, I just recorded a click track on my Protools TDM system and
    > there's a 300 sample discrepancy between where the midi note originally
    > is and where the recorded audio clicks actually land. I had no idea it
    > would be this great of a lag.
    > The recording chain is as follows:
    > Quantized midi note to MOTU Pocket Express midi box to a Proteus/1 box,
    > direct out into a Protools analog input, recorded onto a PT track.
    > Is this a normal amount of delay? How do people deal with that? I
    > suppose if all the analog recording is done after all the midi is
    > finished, it wouldn't matter. But you wouldn't be able to snap any
    > analog notes to grid or they'd be 300 samples ahead.
    > I'm thinking of recording all midi parts including the click into
    > analog and then sliding them 300 samples earlier so that they land
    > right on the grid. And then recording the real analog parts to that
    > click.
    > I'm curious how y'all deal with this. 300 samples is huge! Or maybe
    > something's wrong with my system.

    That's well under 1/100th of a second if you're recording at 44.1k, and less
    than 1/300th of a second if you're at 96k... I realize some people are more
    time-sensitive than others (and I'm one of 'em, for better or for worse - I
    have a hard time using VSTi's in overdub mode, at even very, very slight
    degrees of latency), but do you really think that THAT small of a lag will
    make any kind of perceptible difference?

    Neil Henderson
  5. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    At 44.1/48K rates, 300 samples is between 6 and 7 milliseconds.
    Significant, but not major by any means. I've found that even highly
    trained professional musicians rarely perceive delays of 15 ms or less
    unless it's pointed out to them that they exist, except in cases of
    highly transient percussion instruments like claves for example. I've
    observed this through many sessions recorded through my MOTU 2408
    which, as I usually have it configured, creates about that much
    latency. Very rarely, a non-percussion player will notice, and it's
    always an outstandingly gifted one when they do.

    In a typical Pro Tools TDM rig, a "round trip" in and out of the system
    without any plugins or extra bussing will cause about a 2 ms delay.
    Thus far in my years of experience in that setting, no one has ever
    noticed.

    Others are probably right about the source of your delay being the
    Proteus itself. Its own processor might be the culprit, or the sample
    itself has a few ms of dead air at the front, or a little of each.

    It does raise a related question in my mind about current midi gear
    though, so I'll throw it out to the "room". I remember when USB midi
    first came out (I'm still using serial midi with a Stealth port adapter
    on my G4) and the latency issue was unworkable. I know things have
    greatly improved since then, but has USB midi "caught up" completely?
    Are there any remaining latency issues with it?

    Thanks

    Ted Spencer, NYC
  6. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    prestokid@aol.com wrote:
    > At 44.1/48K rates, 300 samples is between 6 and 7 milliseconds.
    >

    Which is about 6 to 7 feet of sound travel in air to put another
    perspective on it.

    Mark
  7. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <1111117783.890994.300290@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> snovak2@earthlink.net writes:

    > Hi guys, I just recorded a click track on my Protools TDM system and
    > there's a 300 sample discrepancy between where the midi note originally
    > is and where the recorded audio clicks actually land. I had no idea it
    > would be this great of a lag.

    What sample rate? Typically MIDI lags 2 to 3 ms depending on what's
    making the sound (I've read reports of as much as 30 ms with
    Gigastudio setups that aren't well set up). At 96 kHz, 300 samples is
    about 3 ms. No big deal unless you look at the pictures.


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
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