T-72 Tank Sim to be published by Battlefront

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Hi,

Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
modern tank sim.

Read about it here :

http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1738

and here :

http://www.battlefront.com/products/t72/

The Russian language demo can be gotten here :

http://www.3dgamers.com/games/tankt72/downloads/

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
45 answers Last reply
More about tank published battlefront
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    Rotwang ne spem wrote:

    > I will go on pilgrimage to Scherpenheuvel on my knees if somebody
    converts
    > that to WWII.

    I think there's already a model for a T-34 in there so I think I'm
    gonna hold you to this promise ...

    [doa go volk oep af koume]

    Routeplanner : Antwerp to Scherpenheuvel : 61.3 km

    [for the uninitiated : "going to Scherpenheuvel on my knees" is
    *always* used proverbially - usually be people who've never even been
    there - and is not to be taken literally - oh, and I'm not going to
    even bother trying to come up with an English equivalent - if you don't
    speak Flemish, it's your loss]

    Greetz,

    Eddy Sterckx
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Hi,
    >
    > Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
    > modern tank sim.
    >
    > Read about it here :
    >
    > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1738
    >
    > and here :
    >
    > http://www.battlefront.com/products/t72/
    >
    > The Russian language demo can be gotten here :
    >
    > http://www.3dgamers.com/games/tankt72/downloads/
    >
    > Greetz,
    >
    > Eddy Sterckx


    I will go on pilgrimage to Scherpenheuvel on my knees if somebody converts
    that to WWII.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Hi,
    >
    > Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
    > modern tank sim.
    >
    > Read about it here :
    >
    > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1738
    >
    > and here :
    >
    > http://www.battlefront.com/products/t72/
    >
    > The Russian language demo can be gotten here :
    >
    > http://www.3dgamers.com/games/tankt72/downloads/
    >
    > Greetz,
    >
    > Eddy Sterckx


    Interesting.

    As Russians are historical big friends of Serbs this is of no suprise to me.
    But, it would be cool if player could choose Croatian or Bosnian side too.
    Battlefront have made a disclaimer and that's OK they sell the game and if
    it is quality title they will publish it.

    But, it would be OK if some Ukrainian or Slovakian ;) game devs (if Croatian
    are not available) make a game called "Defeat of Elite 1st Guards Brigade in
    Vukovar" or something like that. Because lot's of Serbian tanks have been
    destroyed in Vukovar and Bosnia as well. Ok they captured Vukovar but they
    sustained enormous losses and lost the war in the end. But, I don't want to
    talk too much about this war because yes everybody commited crimes and it
    was really dirty war.

    There was one funny situation in Bosnia and this was told to me by some
    Croat that fought in Bosnia (he was from northern Bosnia) - so there was
    some fight and Serbs have gotten into trap and they destroyed some Serbian
    tanks... And when night came both side came to pull out same tank with
    tractors to repair it. Imagine comical situation and throwing a hand
    grenades to get damaged tank.


    Mario
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:55:32 +0100, "Bloodstar"
    <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


    >Interesting situation that is - but I really respect American democracy and
    >in this case Battlefront.com who will publish game that is about Russian
    >volunteer in Serbian army. OK. Now, I also want to fight Russians in Grozny
    >if that is possible? What, Chechen rebels are terrorists? Khm... And Russian
    >opression of Caucaus is not a terror. khm... Well, I just don't know.

    Sorry, I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this one:

    "The core of the game is an 18 mission campaign following the combat
    experiences of a Russian tank volunteer unit fighting on the Serbian
    side. View the Background section of the website for more detail.
    Single missions as well as LAN and online multiplayer are available
    also."

    So... yeah, the single player campaign happens to be some Russians
    fighting for the Serbs, but no matter what they say, the true core of
    the game will be multiplayer.

    As for a Chechen game... Talk to the developers. It might be tough to
    make a good game out of an asymmetrical war like that.

    Clay-

    --
    Standard Disclaimer:
    My Employer gives my internet access, but I don't speak for them...
    So blame me for saying something dumb, not them.

    Clay Cahill 2004

    "I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late
    nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - David Lee Roth
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <sslc11pdksojtcbhvlb493olnb0fskdfvq@4ax.com>,
    clay.cahill@bunnypeople.com says...

    > So... yeah, the single player campaign happens to be some Russians
    > fighting for the Serbs, but no matter what they say, the true core of
    > the game will be multiplayer.
    >
    > As for a Chechen game... Talk to the developers. It might be tough to
    > make a good game out of an asymmetrical war like that.

    I'd like to see a tank sim take on the 1950s-1960s. Lots of interesting
    stuff there.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

    The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    mean, *we*?'

    It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    blah.

    If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    would never have taken place."
    - Jay Nordlinger
  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On 18 Feb 2005 02:08:56 -0800, "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
    <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
    >modern tank sim.

    I don't think the sim itself will be "hardcore". What is
    "hardcore" in this story is the developers - it appears they belong to
    hardcore Russian ultra nationalists, that is, with somewhat skewed
    perception of reality.

    But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
    their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit, that they
    don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s, and that they think
    T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
    then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think it
    belongs to this group.

    Time will tell though, and I'll be wartching this one...

    Oleg
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <qmmc11pjbh5mbl6jlra0bl9dpck5u6cbvu@4ax.com>, oleg@bug.hr
    says...

    > But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
    > their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit, that they
    > don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s, and that they think
    > T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
    > then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think it
    > belongs to this group.

    Game-wise, though, the key is that the setting they're proposing
    (inaccurate as it might be...) puts a potentially level playing field
    under the various vehicles. In most cases, games pit Soviet equipment
    against western or Israeli stuff, and it would be unsatisfying to
    command a say, T-55 tank, if only for the fact that almost immediately
    you'd come up against a Merkava, or a Challenger, or an M1 and be
    toasted.

    This looks interesting.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

    The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    mean, *we*?'

    It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    blah.

    If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    would never have taken place."
    - Jay Nordlinger
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
    > their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit
    > don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s,

    The short story of the war in the website is quite "neutral" and to the
    point. And the disclaimer is very clear.

    > T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)

    And where did you read that?

    > then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think
    it
    > belongs to this group.

    The story is no more fantastic than many other tank simulators as there
    were many volunteers in each side of the conflict. And about being it
    from the Serbian side, I don't care about the usual stereotypes of who
    is good and bad in a civil war,I will judge the game from its
    qualities, and the game overview looks very interesting. It's a shame
    the demo is in Russian...

    A.
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Sorry, I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this one:
    >
    > "The core of the game is an 18 mission campaign following the combat
    > experiences of a Russian tank volunteer unit fighting on the Serbian
    > side. View the Background section of the website for more detail.
    > Single missions as well as LAN and online multiplayer are available
    > also."
    >
    > So... yeah, the single player campaign happens to be some Russians
    > fighting for the Serbs, but no matter what they say, the true core of
    > the game will be multiplayer.

    OK. Yes, I know that. I just put more attention on singleplayer, story
    driven part of the game. Of course that multplayer component is very
    important and players can choose side and maybe you are right here. I don't
    play lot's of multiplayer but I know that is very good in many games
    (Operation Flashpoint, Battlefield to name but few)... I'll try the game -
    in fact I don't have anything against this game.


    > As for a Chechen game... Talk to the developers. It might be tough to
    > make a good game out of an asymmetrical war like that.


    Well, yes, that was half dry-joke. ;) In fact that game would be "kill
    everyone and come back alone" type of Rambo game... We will see how this
    game will be modeled (this T-72), I know that Croats used some old Shermans
    from WW2 in some fights, in first part of the war they were very inferior to
    Serbs regarding armour, in 1995. maybe not so but don't know exact figures.
    But in fact morale of Serbian forces was never very high, with mobilization
    rate of 8% I think in Belgarde (others were hiding somewhere). In fact to be
    fair historian as I am :) - this war was more or less shame on everyone in
    the Balkans. I was against it and I didn't took any part in it. In fact in
    my recent article that I wrote, I just wrote how history can be cruel, in
    fact Serbs are getting "late" wisdom now, they are talking about
    decentralization of Kosovo, democracy, and about cantonization of Kosovo and
    that 20 years LATE. Great wisdom of Serbs. In fact whole Balkans should have
    been cantonized 10 years ago. Everyone wanted democracy but on some other
    account.


    Mario
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Bloodstar" <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:cv72l4$ebr$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
    > game will be modeled (this T-72), I know that Croats used some old
    Shermans
    > from WW2 in some fights, in first part of the war they were very inferior
    to

    Didn't see any Shermans in action but there were plenty of M36 Jacksons on
    both sides together with M18 Hellcats and at lest one SU-100 was used by
    Bosnian Serbs. T-34 together with T-55 was standard tank and 90mm on M36 is
    more then enough to knock out T-34 although actually there was very little
    armor combat and tanks and SPGs were mostly used to neutralize bunkers and
    support infantry WW1 style. ;-)

    > Serbs regarding armour, in 1995. maybe not so but don't know exact
    figures.

    War in Croatia is specific in the fact that Yugoslav People's Army (there
    weren't just Serbs in it) had huge number of MBTs and APCs (not to mention
    artillery) but lacked infantry so it had to relay on tank and mechanized
    brigades to carry operations that would need lots of infantry since in
    reality there was very little "good tank country" that wasn't ruined by
    mines.

    > But in fact morale of Serbian forces was never very high, with
    mobilization
    > rate of 8% I think in Belgarde (others were hiding somewhere). In fact to
    be

    Something like that in one case out of entire reserve brigade in Belgrade
    only 9 officers and 6 soldiers showed up.


    --
    http://www.vojska.net/
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
    news:qmmc11pjbh5mbl6jlra0bl9dpck5u6cbvu@4ax.com...
    > But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
    > their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit, that they
    > don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s, and that they think
    > T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
    > then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think it
    > belongs to this group.

    Just as long they don't put sewer system under Pristina or any other city it
    will be fine. >:-)
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > And where did you read that?

    http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html

    Lot's of bullshit there, and you can have a good laugh - i didn't even read
    everything, I will read all later.

    BTW, I remember when around 1994. some Serbian professor, my friend but who
    like to say some fantasy things said to me " you know Russian have send some
    tanks to the Serbian in Krajina, they are fast, 200 km/hour, and they just
    knock down trees in woods..." :o)

    BTW, I don't have anything against this game but I think that will be a
    history bullshit because Croatian and Bosnian side didn't had so many tanks
    like Serbian so making a game of Russian volunteer who will now seat in his
    game and shoot 100 Croatian or Bosnian tank is fantasy RPG like Ultima VII
    was. And also I don't like games where you must choose stronger side for
    solo play, side that actually had every weapon available and in much bigger
    quantity. A lot more interesting gameplay is to play weaker side. That's not
    romathic playing stronger side :)
    In fact I don't like games that force you to choose one side in solo play as
    I said, because there is a story and because game design is like that that
    it will not show real war condition here because no player of those Russian
    volunteer would like to see actual situation because that would be masochism
    in case of Vukovar scenario where they lost 10000 soldiers (Vuk Draskovic
    that said, their minister)

    So this game will be totally ahistorical I think. I hope that they will
    model tank battles in Vukovar so I can see if I can shoot 12 tanks my self
    with bazooka :) at least in multiplayer.


    Mario
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Bloodstar" <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:cv7dgv$pah$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
    > BTW, I remember when around 1994. some Serbian professor, my friend but
    who
    > like to say some fantasy things said to me " you know Russian have send
    some
    > tanks to the Serbian in Krajina, they are fast, 200 km/hour, and they just
    > knock down trees in woods..." :o)

    US Croat told he have a brigade with 1000 M-84 in Vukovar! >:-)))

    > BTW, I don't have anything against this game but I think that will be a
    > history bullshit because Croatian and Bosnian side didn't had so many
    tanks
    > like Serbian so making a game of Russian volunteer who will now seat in
    his
    > game and shoot 100 Croatian or Bosnian tank is fantasy RPG like Ultima VII

    We had grand total of 287 tank in 1998! During 1991 some 240 T-55, T-55A,
    M-84 were captured from YPA barracks so very few were lost during the war.
    http://www.vojska.net/military/croatia/equipment/armor/default.asp

    So tank vs. tank action in the game should be mininal.

    > was. And also I don't like games where you must choose stronger side for
    > solo play, side that actually had every weapon available and in much
    bigger
    > quantity. A lot more interesting gameplay is to play weaker side. That's
    not
    > romathic playing stronger side :)

    Who was weaker? We had over 200,000 troops vs. YPA and Serb TO below
    100,000, of course they had entire air force, some 1000 tanks, several
    hundred APCs and more artillery then Zukov and Konev at Berlin. ;-)

    If they stick to reality game could be really challenging since you'll be
    always lacking infantry protection and forced to fight in urban areas.

    > So this game will be totally ahistorical I think.

    Not necessarily, they are banning idiots from forum. ;-)
    http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=000014
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    >> T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
    >
    > And where did you read that?

    http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html

    It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
    that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument that
    the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to be a
    Western media conspiracy.

    Best regards, Major H.
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...

    > > And where did you read that?
    >
    > http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
    >
    > It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
    > that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument that
    > the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to be a
    > Western media conspiracy.

    The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.

    The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
    insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
    1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
    stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.

    Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
    smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
    western tank here>.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

    The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    mean, *we*?'

    It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    blah.

    If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    would never have taken place."
    - Jay Nordlinger
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:MPG.1c81806f24478d1498a1b2@news-east.giganews.com...
    > In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
    >
    > > > And where did you read that?
    > >
    > > http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
    > >
    > > It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
    > > that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument
    that
    > > the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to
    be a
    > > Western media conspiracy.
    >
    > The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
    >
    > The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
    > insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
    > 1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
    > stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
    >
    > Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
    > smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
    > western tank here>.
    >
    > --
    > Giftzwerg
    > ***
    > "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    > and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    > We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'
    >
    > The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    > mean, *we*?'
    >
    > It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    > allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    > amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    > we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    > blah.
    >
    > If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    > would never have taken place."
    > - Jay Nordlinger


    I don't agree with the article, but at the same time, the 72's exported
    to the Med nations were not the same as the stock Soviet version iirc.
    I.e., I think the Soviet version had thermal sights, the export version
    didn't ? Major H ?

    Let alone, I doubt that a Syrian or Iraqi 72 crew would match a Soviet
    one, in the same tank.
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <Xns9602A0EBA9229mortimertherat@130.133.1.18>,
    alsandorz@rogers.com says...

    > > It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the
    > > article is that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more
    > > of an argument that the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what
    > > the author perceives to be a Western media conspiracy.
    >
    > Which could well be the case.

    On that Bizzarro would from the Superman comics where everything is
    backwards, surely.

    > How would it have looked if anyone in Washington during the Reagan
    > administration has said: "Really, boss, those Soviets have a really
    > bitching tank in the T-72, a LOT better than anything we have. If we
    > let the public know, they will certainly agree we should buy this for
    > our own armed forces."

    <laughter>

    Of course, this is *exactly* what they said. Or is it your contention
    that folks at the Pentagon are wont to argue, "The <enemy weapon here>
    is just junk, and we don't need to spend any money on new weapons to
    counter it."

    Yeah. Uh-huh.

    In reality, the impetus is for military men of every stripe (and from
    every country) to be extremely respectful of the capabilities of enemy
    weapons. And in Washington, you can't chisel a nickel out of Congress
    unless you spend every waking moment asserting that enemy weapons
    systems are all Ten Feet Tall.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

    The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    mean, *we*?'

    It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    blah.

    If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    would never have taken place."
    - Jay Nordlinger
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On 19 Feb 2005 04:51:02 -0800, acca170@yahoo.com wrote:

    >> But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
    >> their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit
    >> don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s,
    >
    >The short story of the war in the website is quite "neutral" and to the
    >point. And the disclaimer is very clear.

    Short story is taken from third party site (not developers') and
    is quite neutral as you say.

    But then again it has nothing to do with how war is/will be
    depicted in the game itself, and scenarios described on devs site
    (judging from "background" and "overview" sections on the site).

    O.
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:59:39 +0100, "Ivan Bajlo"
    <ivan.bajlo@zg.htnet.hr> wrote:

    >> game and shoot 100 Croatian or Bosnian tank is fantasy RPG like Ultima VII
    >
    >We had grand total of 287 tank in 1998! During 1991 some 240 T-55, T-55A,
    >M-84 were captured from YPA barracks so very few were lost during the war.
    >http://www.vojska.net/military/croatia/equipment/armor/default.asp
    >
    >So tank vs. tank action in the game should be mininal.

    Yes, but this game is NOT realistic depiction of Balkan combat
    in the 90s.

    Bajlo you'd be happy to hear Croats will have Leopard Is in
    their inventory in this game ;o)

    O.
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <Xns9602B8572DBEEmortimertherat@130.133.1.18>,
    alsandorz@rogers.com says...

    > Obviously the US military knew the Soviet had respectable equipment
    > otherwise they would have been tempted to prepare invasions in 1945,
    > 195x, 196x, 197x, 198x... They didn't, or if they did, they didn't
    > carry them out, which indicates to me they were very much aware that
    > any attempts to go head to head with the Soviets would result in
    > unacceptable losses.

    It occurs to me that if we reverse "Soviet" and "US" in this paragraph,
    we reach an equivalently stupid point of view.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

    The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    mean, *we*?'

    It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    blah.

    If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    would never have taken place."
    - Jay Nordlinger
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Didn't see any Shermans in action but there were plenty of M36 Jacksons on
    > both sides together with M18 Hellcats and at lest one SU-100 was used by
    > Bosnian Serbs. T-34 together with T-55 was standard tank and 90mm on M36
    is
    > more then enough to knock out T-34 although actually there was very little
    > armor combat and tanks and SPGs were mostly used to neutralize bunkers and
    > support infantry WW1 style. ;-)

    Well, one of my cousin who fough in 100 and something zagrebacka brigada, he
    is near you (Malesnica) and he told me that they had Shermans on Banija but
    maybe he don't know the difference, I don't know so...

    > War in Croatia is specific in the fact that Yugoslav People's Army (there
    > weren't just Serbs in it) had huge number of MBTs and APCs (not to mention
    > artillery) but lacked infantry so it had to relay on tank and mechanized
    > brigades to carry operations that would need lots of infantry since in
    > reality there was very little "good tank country" that wasn't ruined by
    > mines.

    OK, can't argue that :o)

    > Something like that in one case out of entire reserve brigade in Belgrade
    > only 9 officers and 6 soldiers showed up.

    :)
    They had lot's of low lifes and bunch of weekend chetnicks and nobodys. In
    fact Russians are "half crazy" - and if they making game based on their dogs
    of war, so be it :o))) I am all for that, I also want to see Che Guevarra in
    Angola, and South America :o) To drive those Ford vans with built-in machine
    guns in Africa :o)
    Maybe game would be cool after all so we can play those savage people from
    The Balkans :o)
    Erh, just joking, no offense to anybody :o)


    Mario
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > US Croat told he have a brigade with 1000 M-84 in Vukovar! >:)))

    Well, I have another story: I've heard a story from one guy who fought as
    volunteer in Croatian army (Croat from Montenegro) and he told me that he
    have some devices with him and he in fact intercepted some signals from
    Awacs (spelling?) when he was around Udbina in some bushes (ambush or
    something, he was good soldier BTW) and he knew about air attack of NATO on
    Serbian Udbina airfield 5 hours before it happened. So he alarmed Croatian
    high command around 23 PM and next morning NATO actually did attacked Udbina
    aifield. Well, I don't know if that is really possible so I will put this
    story in half-fantasy :o)

    > We had grand total of 287 tank in 1998! During 1991 some 240 T-55, T-55A,
    > M-84 were captured from YPA barracks so very few were lost during the war.
    > http://www.vojska.net/military/croatia/equipment/armor/default.asp
    >
    > So tank vs. tank action in the game should be mininal.

    All right, all credit to you for nice work on this.

    > Who was weaker? We had over 200,000 troops vs. YPA and Serb TO below
    > 100,000, of course they had entire air force, some 1000 tanks, several
    > hundred APCs and more artillery then Zukov and Konev at Berlin. >;-)

    Yes, I was refering to weapons of war not on manpower. :o)
    Even, China had huge manpower in XIX century but that didn't helped them
    because every nation could put few regiments and march to Peking for rape
    and pillaging of treasures and then enforced them paying war tributes.
    Emperor would just escape and hide somewhere in China, land was so big so
    they didn't followed him haha :o))))

    > If they stick to reality game could be really challenging since you'll be
    > always lacking infantry protection and forced to fight in urban areas.

    We will see... They got my attention.

    > > So this game will be totally ahistorical I think.
    >
    > Not necessarily, they are banning idiots from forum. ;-)
    >
    http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?>ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=0000
    14

    This is very good to see :o) To hell with them...


    Mario
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:34:03 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > I don't agree with the article, but at the same time, the 72's exported
    >to the Med nations were not the same as the stock Soviet version iirc.
    >I.e., I think the Soviet version had thermal sights, the export version
    >didn't ? Major H ?

    ...and now, back to the game!

    T-72 exported to <insert nation here> were inferior to Russian
    ones, and game would want us to believe there was some phantom
    "Russian volunteer company" (never heard of them) fighting in the
    Balkans, on the side of their "orthodox Serb brothers", against "Croat
    catholics" (how stupid) in Russian army T-72s? Just how did they
    transport their T-72s to Yugoslavia would make a story on its own,
    even if we manage to cast aside rest of the drivel.

    But I really want to drive a "catholic Leopard Is" game would
    have you believe Germans sold to Croats. (Yes they did, but no more
    than a handful, perhaps not enough to equip an armored company - Bajlo
    if you know more, please post).

    See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
    but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
    fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
    skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
    unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...

    O.
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
    news:3emf11hvpedfb6f5g9pcm4okfbu43jillf@4ax.com...
    > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:34:03 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > > I don't agree with the article, but at the same time, the 72's
    exported
    > >to the Med nations were not the same as the stock Soviet version iirc.
    > >I.e., I think the Soviet version had thermal sights, the export version
    > >didn't ? Major H ?
    >
    > ...and now, back to the game!
    >
    > T-72 exported to <insert nation here> were inferior to Russian
    > ones, and game would want us to believe there was some phantom
    > "Russian volunteer company" (never heard of them) fighting in the
    > Balkans, on the side of their "orthodox Serb brothers", against "Croat
    > catholics" (how stupid) in Russian army T-72s? Just how did they
    > transport their T-72s to Yugoslavia would make a story on its own,
    > even if we manage to cast aside rest of the drivel.
    >
    > But I really want to drive a "catholic Leopard Is" game would
    > have you believe Germans sold to Croats. (Yes they did, but no more
    > than a handful, perhaps not enough to equip an armored company - Bajlo
    > if you know more, please post).
    >
    > See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
    > but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
    > fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
    > skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
    > unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
    >
    > O.


    Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
    some T-90's instead ? <g>


    >
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <ZERRd.126$nQ5.1055@eagle.america.net>, jp@hotmail.com
    says...

    > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
    > some T-90's instead ? <g>

    Why bother with a T-90, when the T-72 has been unconditionally
    triumphant over all comers since the Nixon Administration?

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

    The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    mean, *we*?'

    It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    blah.

    If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    would never have taken place."
    - Jay Nordlinger
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:MPG.1c81c359f523c32b98a1b5@news-east.giganews.com...
    > In article <ZERRd.126$nQ5.1055@eagle.america.net>, jp@hotmail.com
    > says...
    >
    > > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
    > > some T-90's instead ? <g>
    >
    > Why bother with a T-90, when the T-72 has been unconditionally
    > triumphant over all comers since the Nixon Administration?
    >
    > --
    > Giftzwerg
    > ***
    > "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
    > and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
    > We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'
    >
    > The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
    > mean, *we*?'
    >
    > It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
    > allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
    > amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
    > we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
    > blah.
    >
    > If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
    > would never have taken place."
    > - Jay Nordlinger


    Hehe.
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:23:20 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >> See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
    >> but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
    >> fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
    >> skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
    >> unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
    >
    > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
    >some T-90's instead ? <g>

    Indeed....

    "Tovarich Major Pavlov, Corporal Ivanov speaking. I just signed
    to Russian volunteer company, I go to fight on the side of our Serb
    Orthodox brothers in the Balkans. Please issue me one T-90, little
    used, to drive down there. And please don't suspend my army pay while
    I'm away fighting vs. vicious 'Croat catholics'".

    Fun :o)

    O.
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
    news:cktf11174kgvla4v2g3qh47748lqa6do5g@4ax.com...
    > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:23:20 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >> See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
    > >> but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
    > >> fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
    > >> skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
    > >> unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
    > >
    > > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
    > >some T-90's instead ? <g>
    >
    > Indeed....
    >
    > "Tovarich Major Pavlov, Corporal Ivanov speaking. I just signed
    > to Russian volunteer company, I go to fight on the side of our Serb
    > Orthodox brothers in the Balkans. Please issue me one T-90, little
    > used, to drive down there. And please don't suspend my army pay while
    > I'm away fighting vs. vicious 'Croat catholics'".
    >
    > Fun :o)
    >
    > O.


    Hehe.


    >
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
    news:r1re11pposs33v3uqimijcqlt75al11k09@4ax.com...
    > Yes, but this game is NOT realistic depiction of Balkan combat
    > in the 90s.
    >
    > Bajlo you'd be happy to hear Croats will have Leopard Is in
    > their inventory in this game ;o)

    Cool, let's not forget Leo 2, Abrams, Panthers and Tigers which we also got.
    >:-)

    BTW didn't see M-47 Pattons on the list and there were several of them.
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
    news:3emf11hvpedfb6f5g9pcm4okfbu43jillf@4ax.com...
    > But I really want to drive a "catholic Leopard Is" game would
    > have you believe Germans sold to Croats. (Yes they did, but no more
    > than a handful, perhaps not enough to equip an armored company - Bajlo
    > if you know more, please post).

    Nope nobody I know has ever seen a Leo in Croatian army - either in one
    piece or in pieces - closes thing was T-55 of 4. gbr which had added sheets
    of metal and rubber for extra protection so from a distance it could be
    mistaken for Leo.

    Just another urban legend together with Mig-29, Su-25 which are suppose to
    be in crates never assembled etc.

    All the junk that did really arrive was shown publicly and still is, Mi-24
    are rotting away on Pleso airfield lacking parts to fly, and we probably
    still have S-300 missiles but lacking everything else to launch them.

    Funny how during WW2 every German tank was reported as Panther or Tiger
    while it was only T-34 in German service or only StuG III and in last war we
    had T-55 reported as Leo's. ;-))
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > T-72 exported to <insert nation here> were inferior to Russian
    > ones, and game would want us to believe there was some phantom
    > "Russian volunteer company" (never heard of them) fighting in the
    > Balkans, on the side of their "orthodox Serb brothers", against "Croat
    > catholics" (how stupid) in Russian army T-72s? Just how did they
    > transport their T-72s to Yugoslavia would make a story on its own,
    > even if we manage to cast aside rest of the drivel.

    Dont't want to defend our Slavic bratjuskas Russians :o) but maybe they
    think that Yugoslav M-84 was in fact T-72 on steroids and just a variant of
    T-72 anyway?

    So when sons of the steppes and veterans of stealing chickens in Afghanistan
    mountains came to Serbia they issued them all new
    M-84's.

    ;)


    Mario
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:56 -0500, Giftzwerg
    <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
    >
    >> > And where did you read that?
    >>
    >> http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
    >>
    >> It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
    >> that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument that
    >> the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to be a
    >> Western media conspiracy.
    >
    >The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
    >
    >The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
    >insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
    >1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
    >stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
    >
    >Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
    >smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
    >western tank here>.

    I recall talking to some people in the early 90s that were evaluating
    the soviet military equipment that made it's way west after the
    reunification of Germany. The consensus seemed to be that the soviet
    tanks really were pretty shitty. Problems were mainly with the
    auto-loader and aquiring targets while on the move.

    I remember that the only piece of Soviet equipment they were really
    impressed with was the Mig-29. where they were of the opinion that you
    could mate it with 'western' avionics and have a fighter at least as
    good as anything in the west.

    Rgds, Frank
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:17:31 +0100, "Bloodstar"
    <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


    >Well, one of my cousin who fough in 100 and something zagrebacka brigada, he
    >is near you (Malesnica) and he told me that they had Shermans on Banija but
    >maybe he don't know the difference, I don't know so...

    I think what he saw were Jacksons (M 36). They were used by 2nd Guard brigade
    ("Thunders") and were subsequently reassigned to 5th Antitank Batallion that
    used them in 1995 in Operation Storm. I was with 5th in 1995.


    Drax
    remove JAMRZIMSPAM for reply
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:g=4ZQmuN3cnXe3ncXy8KttFTWXBS@4ax.com...
    > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:56 -0500, Giftzwerg
    > <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
    > >
    > >> > And where did you read that?
    > >>
    > >> http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
    > >>
    > >> It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article
    is
    > >> that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument
    that
    > >> the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to
    be a
    > >> Western media conspiracy.
    > >
    > >The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
    > >
    > >The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
    > >insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
    > >1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
    > >stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
    > >
    > >Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
    > >smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
    > >western tank here>.
    >
    > I recall talking to some people in the early 90s that were evaluating
    > the soviet military equipment that made it's way west after the
    > reunification of Germany. The consensus seemed to be that the soviet
    > tanks really were pretty shitty. Problems were mainly with the
    > auto-loader and aquiring targets while on the move.
    >
    > I remember that the only piece of Soviet equipment they were really
    > impressed with was the Mig-29. where they were of the opinion that you
    > could mate it with 'western' avionics and have a fighter at least as
    > good as anything in the west.
    >
    > Rgds, Frank


    Yeah, I recall some show on Discovery awhile back about the Mig-29's in
    East Germany. Something like 40 + East German pilots were trying to get
    into the new German AF.........seven made it.

    Remember they had a bunch of USAF guys helping to "evaluate" them, and
    with the US guys in their usual F-15's and 16's, they dominated the East
    Germans in their 29's. So the Germans blamed it on the US planes being
    better (the US was trying to impress the idea of "it's the pilot"). US guys
    switched to some obsolete jet, can't recall, F-4's maybe.
    Same results.

    Bascially, the Soviet doctrines, which the East was using obviously,
    didn't cut it <g> So rigid, it didn't allow the East guys to fly their 29's
    (an outstanding jet as is) to their potential.
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > I think what he saw were Jacksons (M 36). They were used by 2nd Guard
    brigade
    > ("Thunders") and were subsequently reassigned to 5th Antitank Batallion
    that
    > used them in 1995 in Operation Storm. I was with 5th in 1995.

    Oh my friend Drax, we will both forget arguing from the past and really no
    hard feelings toward you from my side.

    Thanks for clarification. I have a friend who is still in 2nd Guards Brigade
    but I didn't heard from him long time, he told me many stories about action
    were he participated, forcing of Una (not succesful action but Serbs did
    have even heavier losses, and also one time Serbs air strike have missed
    them for about 400m droping cluster bombs (cassete?) on their column, they
    had big luck.


    Mario
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Ivan Bajlo" <ivan.bajlo@zg.htnet.hr> wrote in message
    news:cv7efn$ac$1@news1.xnet.hr...
    > Didn't see any Shermans in action but there were plenty of M36

    I saw one on a video when the JNA was leaving Poligon C near Osijek.. It had
    that old M3 75 mm gun..
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
    news:rrqe115et2kggc4kddahbclpq065hd9mo7@4ax.com...
    > On 19 Feb 2005 04:51:02 -0800, acca170@yahoo.com wrote:
    > But then again it has nothing to do with how war is/will be
    > depicted in the game itself, and scenarios described on devs site
    > (judging from "background" and "overview" sections on the site).

    They probably lack missions like "Fire all your tank's HE ammo in direction
    of that small town at random houses. Then reload and repeat the process."
    which are a necessity to make the game more realistic.
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "agh" <agh@kjh.com> wrote in message news:cvcrv7$ub9$1@news.siemens.at...
    > They probably lack missions like "Fire all your tank's HE ammo in
    direction
    > of that small town at random houses. Then reload and repeat the process."
    > which are a necessity to make the game more realistic.

    Not to mention mission should take several days to complete with next
    mission being absolutely the same with only difference name of the village.
    ;-))
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:14:17 +0100, "Bloodstar"
    <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


    >Oh my friend Drax, we will both forget arguing from the past and really no
    >hard feelings toward you from my side.

    Likewise. It's not that we have an abundance of wargame enthusiasts in
    our little neck of woods.

    >Thanks for clarification. I have a friend who is still in 2nd Guards Brigade
    >but I didn't heard from him long time, he told me many stories about action
    >were he participated, forcing of Una (not succesful action but Serbs did
    >have even heavier losses, and also one time Serbs air strike have missed
    >them for about 400m droping cluster bombs (cassete?) on their column, they
    >had big luck.

    If he was referring to the failed operation "Una" that took place in
    September 1995, I was in Kostajnica than awaiting the crossing of our
    AT batallion as second wave. According to plan, we were supposed to
    face Bosnian Serb M-84 tank brigade as a part of the flank AT screen.
    Needless to say, I was not overly thrilled by the prospects of our
    Jacksons facing M-84s.

    This operation was one of the major SNAFUs from our war that I am
    aware of.


    Drax
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Likewise. It's not that we have an abundance of wargame enthusiasts in
    > our little neck of woods.

    In fact, most important have gathered in this thread :)


    > If he was referring to the failed operation "Una" that took place in
    > September 1995, I was in Kostajnica than awaiting the crossing of our
    > AT batallion as second wave. According to plan, we were supposed to
    > face Bosnian Serb M-84 tank brigade as a part of the flank AT screen.
    > Needless to say, I was not overly thrilled by the prospects of our
    > Jacksons facing M-84s.
    >
    > This operation was one of the major SNAFUs from our war that I am
    > aware of.

    Yes, operation "Una" in 1995. He crossed the river but didn't talked too
    much how hard was resistance, but when I asked about our losses, he said
    "40" and when I asked what he think about estimate Serbian losse, he said
    with a smile "500" :o)))) But, good soldier is not mentioning individual
    kills :o)))
    As I've heard from one guy, M-84 was leathal tank, he was also from Bosnia
    and he told me that M-84 had automatic locking of targets (whatever that may
    be), I never read too much about modern tanks, I know a basic. But, if those
    Jakcsons were kept so long then they are very good weapon, of course no
    match for M-84.


    Mario
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:43:31 +0100, "Bloodstar"
    <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


    >In fact, most important have gathered in this thread :)

    All four of us, :o)

    >Yes, operation "Una" in 1995.

    When operation "Storm" ended, my AT battalion was left at Kostajnica as
    garrison. August and early September passed in boredom and "liberation" of
    whatever spirit we could track.

    Then we heard the news from Bosnian radio how Bosnian troops liberated Bosanska
    Krupa and were on their way north to Prijedor, another Bosnian Serb stronghold.
    A quick glance on the map, showed that if Bosnians capture Prijedor, entire Serb
    controlled region on the south bank of Una would be cut off from the rest of the
    Republic of Srpska and forced to surrender.

    Apparently, Croatian general staff could read maps too.

    Bosnian Serbs also had that ability so their radio stations were calling for
    volunteers to join in the defense and asked population to defend their homes.
    Nevertheless, Serb population was not stupid and started to pack their bags.

    Throughout the weekend preceding the start of the operation "Una" we were
    monitoring what was going on across the river in Bosanska Kostajnica. Local
    authority stopped the blackout which was going on ever since we got there and it
    was obvious there was a panic there.

    That saturday I personally escorted a group of high school teachers who helped
    clean the local high school in Kostajnica all the way to the damaged bridge
    between two towns. Some teachers even went towards the river and waved towards
    the other side, provoking it. Nothing happened.

    On Sunday, all vacations were suspended and we got our marching orders for
    Monday. Our job was to give fire support from our two Jacksons when the crossing
    started. We also had a battery of towed AT guns T-12 100mm dugged in and
    camouflaged.

    Monday morning came, we got our recognition stripes, but morning fog apparently
    prevented any offensive action. I casually went to the centre of the city to buy
    newspaper and cigarettes for my addict friends.

    High noon came and fog lifted. It was time for me to drive few kilometers back
    to collect lunch. I drove up the road in perfect site of whatever Serb across
    the river, got the lunch, drove back and saw several families of returned
    Croatian refugees sitting in their homes, preparing for lunch.

    I safely got back, delivered the food and soon after artillery preparation
    started...

    On Wednesday morning everything was over. We never fired a shot, we remained at
    our base playing cards and eating while sporadic artillery duel lasted.

    Serb radio, that was in the gloom and defiant mode during the preceding week,
    now became cheerful, ful of Serb marching songs, announcing great victory in
    repelling "ustasha agressors".

    Before I went home to my three day vacation, I managed to sneak into the
    operational order that called for four day action, involving crossing the river
    and our task in this whole mess.

    When I got home, my father showed me the newspapers that were writing about
    "constant provocations" from Serb side that we "could not tolerate any more and
    had to intervene". I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry.

    Bosnians did not take Krupa and Prijedor was not in danger so Serbs did not have
    to weaken their forces on the river as someone in Croatian general staff hoped
    for.

    This general was relieved, Bosnians eventually liberated Krupa, we remained in
    Kostajnica pending our redeployment to Slavonia for operation "Dunav 95", i.e.
    liberation of Vukovar.

    Thanks to the Dayton peace accord, we were never redeployed and I was
    demobilised in late November.


    >As I've heard from one guy, M-84 was leathal tank, he was also from Bosnia
    >and he told me that M-84 had automatic locking of targets (whatever that may
    >be),

    When I was in Yugoslav Army in 1987 we were told the same thing. We were told to
    expect to fire no more than two shots from our towed AT guns before we had to
    change position.

    > I never read too much about modern tanks, I know a basic. But, if those
    >Jakcsons were kept so long then they are very good weapon, of course no
    >match for M-84.

    They got diesel engines and better roof when they were modernised in early
    fifities. I believe they were all mothballed before the war and served well in
    1991. However, by 1995 most of the engines were thoroughly unreliable and out of
    eight machines we had on the eve of Operation "Storm", only four could be
    trusted on.

    We used them mostly for indirect fire support, but this wasn't without dangers
    as we saw at Petrinja...

    I leave that for some other post.


    Drax
    remove JAMRZIMSPAM for reply
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > When operation "Storm" ended, my AT battalion was left at Kostajnica as
    > garrison. August and early September passed in boredom and "liberation" of
    > whatever spirit we could track.
    >
    > Then we heard the news from Bosnian radio how Bosnian troops liberated
    Bosanska
    > Krupa and were on their way north to Prijedor, another Bosnian Serb
    stronghold.
    > A quick glance on the map, showed that if Bosnians capture Prijedor,
    entire Serb
    > controlled region on the south bank of Una would be cut off from the rest
    of the
    > Republic of Srpska and forced to surrender.
    >
    > Apparently, Croatian general staff could read maps too.
    >
    > Bosnian Serbs also had that ability so their radio stations were calling
    for
    > volunteers to join in the defense and asked population to defend their
    homes.
    > Nevertheless, Serb population was not stupid and started to pack their
    bags.
    >
    > Throughout the weekend preceding the start of the operation "Una" we were
    > monitoring what was going on across the river in Bosanska Kostajnica.
    Local
    > authority stopped the blackout which was going on ever since we got there
    and it
    > was obvious there was a panic there.
    >
    > That saturday I personally escorted a group of high school teachers who
    helped
    > clean the local high school in Kostajnica all the way to the damaged
    bridge
    > between two towns. Some teachers even went towards the river and waved
    towards
    > the other side, provoking it. Nothing happened.
    >
    > On Sunday, all vacations were suspended and we got our marching orders for
    > Monday. Our job was to give fire support from our two Jacksons when the
    crossing
    > started. We also had a battery of towed AT guns T-12 100mm dugged in and
    > camouflaged.
    >
    > Monday morning came, we got our recognition stripes, but morning fog
    apparently
    > prevented any offensive action. I casually went to the centre of the city
    to buy
    > newspaper and cigarettes for my addict friends.
    >
    > High noon came and fog lifted. It was time for me to drive few kilometers
    back
    > to collect lunch. I drove up the road in perfect site of whatever Serb
    across
    > the river, got the lunch, drove back and saw several families of returned
    > Croatian refugees sitting in their homes, preparing for lunch.
    >
    > I safely got back, delivered the food and soon after artillery preparation
    > started...
    >
    > On Wednesday morning everything was over. We never fired a shot, we
    remained at
    > our base playing cards and eating while sporadic artillery duel lasted.
    >
    > Serb radio, that was in the gloom and defiant mode during the preceding
    week,
    > now became cheerful, ful of Serb marching songs, announcing great victory
    in
    > repelling "ustasha agressors".
    >
    > Before I went home to my three day vacation, I managed to sneak into the
    > operational order that called for four day action, involving crossing the
    river
    > and our task in this whole mess.
    >
    > When I got home, my father showed me the newspapers that were writing
    about
    > "constant provocations" from Serb side that we "could not tolerate any
    more and
    > had to intervene". I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry.
    >
    > Bosnians did not take Krupa and Prijedor was not in danger so Serbs did
    not have
    > to weaken their forces on the river as someone in Croatian general staff
    hoped
    > for.
    >
    > This general was relieved, Bosnians eventually liberated Krupa, we
    remained in
    > Kostajnica pending our redeployment to Slavonia for operation "Dunav 95",
    i.e.
    > liberation of Vukovar.
    >
    > Thanks to the Dayton peace accord, we were never redeployed and I was
    > demobilised in late November.

    Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...

    > We used them mostly for indirect fire support, but this wasn't without
    dangers
    > as we saw at Petrinja...
    >
    > I leave that for some other post.

    Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...

    Regards,


    Mario
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    george.washington@microsoft.com wrote:
    > Bosanska
    > stronghold.
    > entire Serb
    > of the
    > for
    > homes.
    > bags.
    > Local
    > and it
    > helped
    > bridge
    > towards
    > crossing
    > apparently
    > to buy
    > back
    > across
    > remained at
    > week,
    > in
    > river
    > about
    > more and
    > not have
    > hoped
    > remained in
    > i.e.
    > Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...
    > dangers
    > Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...
    > Regards,
    > Mario

    Thanks!

    volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <42403b0d@news.012.net.il>, volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com
    says...

    > > Bosanska
    > > stronghold.
    > > entire Serb
    > > of the
    > > for
    > > homes.
    > > bags.
    > > Local
    > > and it
    > > helped
    > > bridge
    > > towards
    > > crossing
    > > apparently
    > > to buy
    > > back
    > > across
    > > remained at
    > > week,
    > > in
    > > river
    > > about
    > > more and
    > > not have
    > > hoped
    > > remained in
    > > i.e.
    > > Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...
    > > dangers
    > > Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...
    > > Regards,
    > > Mario
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com

    Is the bulk of this poem written in iambic unimeter? Duometer?

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "So if you are a Democrat your value system works like this....

    Unborn Child? Kill It.
    Sick Woman? Kill it.
    Convicted Murder on death row? Do every thing you can do to save it!"

    - Wizbang Paul
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Thanks!
    >
    > volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com

    Well, you are welcome, our Usenet theatre will do anything to please the
    public. Even Her Majesty Queen was satisfied. ;)


    Mario
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