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T-72 Tank Sim to be published by Battlefront

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Anonymous
February 18, 2005 5:08:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Hi,

Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
modern tank sim.

Read about it here :

http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1738

and here :

http://www.battlefront.com/products/t72/

The Russian language demo can be gotten here :

http://www.3dgamers.com/games/tankt72/downloads/

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 8:22:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Rotwang ne spem wrote:

> I will go on pilgrimage to Scherpenheuvel on my knees if somebody
converts
> that to WWII.

I think there's already a model for a T-34 in there so I think I'm
gonna hold you to this promise ...

[doa go volk oep af koume]

Routeplanner : Antwerp to Scherpenheuvel : 61.3 km

[for the uninitiated : "going to Scherpenheuvel on my knees" is
*always* used proverbially - usually be people who've never even been
there - and is not to be taken literally - oh, and I'm not going to
even bother trying to come up with an English equivalent - if you don't
speak Flemish, it's your loss]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 4:02:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Hi,
>
> Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
> modern tank sim.
>
> Read about it here :
>
> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1738
>
> and here :
>
> http://www.battlefront.com/products/t72/
>
> The Russian language demo can be gotten here :
>
> http://www.3dgamers.com/games/tankt72/downloads/
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx



I will go on pilgrimage to Scherpenheuvel on my knees if somebody converts
that to WWII.
Related resources
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Anonymous
February 19, 2005 12:43:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Hi,
>
> Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
> modern tank sim.
>
> Read about it here :
>
> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1738
>
> and here :
>
> http://www.battlefront.com/products/t72/
>
> The Russian language demo can be gotten here :
>
> http://www.3dgamers.com/games/tankt72/downloads/
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx


Interesting.

As Russians are historical big friends of Serbs this is of no suprise to me.
But, it would be cool if player could choose Croatian or Bosnian side too.
Battlefront have made a disclaimer and that's OK they sell the game and if
it is quality title they will publish it.

But, it would be OK if some Ukrainian or Slovakian ;)  game devs (if Croatian
are not available) make a game called "Defeat of Elite 1st Guards Brigade in
Vukovar" or something like that. Because lot's of Serbian tanks have been
destroyed in Vukovar and Bosnia as well. Ok they captured Vukovar but they
sustained enormous losses and lost the war in the end. But, I don't want to
talk too much about this war because yes everybody commited crimes and it
was really dirty war.

There was one funny situation in Bosnia and this was told to me by some
Croat that fought in Bosnia (he was from northern Bosnia) - so there was
some fight and Serbs have gotten into trap and they destroyed some Serbian
tanks... And when night came both side came to pull out same tank with
tractors to repair it. Imagine comical situation and throwing a hand
grenades to get damaged tank.



Mario
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 12:43:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:55:32 +0100, "Bloodstar"
<george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


>Interesting situation that is - but I really respect American democracy and
>in this case Battlefront.com who will publish game that is about Russian
>volunteer in Serbian army. OK. Now, I also want to fight Russians in Grozny
>if that is possible? What, Chechen rebels are terrorists? Khm... And Russian
>opression of Caucaus is not a terror. khm... Well, I just don't know.

Sorry, I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this one:

"The core of the game is an 18 mission campaign following the combat
experiences of a Russian tank volunteer unit fighting on the Serbian
side. View the Background section of the website for more detail.
Single missions as well as LAN and online multiplayer are available
also."

So... yeah, the single player campaign happens to be some Russians
fighting for the Serbs, but no matter what they say, the true core of
the game will be multiplayer.

As for a Chechen game... Talk to the developers. It might be tough to
make a good game out of an asymmetrical war like that.

Clay-

--
Standard Disclaimer:
My Employer gives my internet access, but I don't speak for them...
So blame me for saying something dumb, not them.

Clay Cahill 2004

"I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late
nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - David Lee Roth
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 12:43:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <sslc11pdksojtcbhvlb493olnb0fskdfvq@4ax.com>,
clay.cahill@bunnypeople.com says...

> So... yeah, the single player campaign happens to be some Russians
> fighting for the Serbs, but no matter what they say, the true core of
> the game will be multiplayer.
>
> As for a Chechen game... Talk to the developers. It might be tough to
> make a good game out of an asymmetrical war like that.

I'd like to see a tank sim take on the 1950s-1960s. Lots of interesting
stuff there.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 1:20:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On 18 Feb 2005 02:08:56 -0800, "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Battlefront have signed on the Russian developers of this hardcore
>modern tank sim.

I don't think the sim itself will be "hardcore". What is
"hardcore" in this story is the developers - it appears they belong to
hardcore Russian ultra nationalists, that is, with somewhat skewed
perception of reality.

But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit, that they
don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s, and that they think
T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think it
belongs to this group.

Time will tell though, and I'll be wartching this one...

Oleg
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 1:20:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <qmmc11pjbh5mbl6jlra0bl9dpck5u6cbvu@4ax.com>, oleg@bug.hr
says...

> But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
> their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit, that they
> don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s, and that they think
> T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
> then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think it
> belongs to this group.

Game-wise, though, the key is that the setting they're proposing
(inaccurate as it might be...) puts a potentially level playing field
under the various vehicles. In most cases, games pit Soviet equipment
against western or Israeli stuff, and it would be unsatisfying to
command a say, T-55 tank, if only for the fact that almost immediately
you'd come up against a Merkava, or a Challenger, or an M1 and be
toasted.

This looks interesting.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 7:51:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
> their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit
> don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s,

The short story of the war in the website is quite "neutral" and to the
point. And the disclaimer is very clear.

> T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)

And where did you read that?

> then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think
it
> belongs to this group.

The story is no more fantastic than many other tank simulators as there
were many volunteers in each side of the conflict. And about being it
from the Serbian side, I don't care about the usual stereotypes of who
is good and bad in a civil war,I will judge the game from its
qualities, and the game overview looks very interesting. It's a shame
the demo is in Russian...

A.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 3:11:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Sorry, I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this one:
>
> "The core of the game is an 18 mission campaign following the combat
> experiences of a Russian tank volunteer unit fighting on the Serbian
> side. View the Background section of the website for more detail.
> Single missions as well as LAN and online multiplayer are available
> also."
>
> So... yeah, the single player campaign happens to be some Russians
> fighting for the Serbs, but no matter what they say, the true core of
> the game will be multiplayer.

OK. Yes, I know that. I just put more attention on singleplayer, story
driven part of the game. Of course that multplayer component is very
important and players can choose side and maybe you are right here. I don't
play lot's of multiplayer but I know that is very good in many games
(Operation Flashpoint, Battlefield to name but few)... I'll try the game -
in fact I don't have anything against this game.


> As for a Chechen game... Talk to the developers. It might be tough to
> make a good game out of an asymmetrical war like that.


Well, yes, that was half dry-joke. ;)  In fact that game would be "kill
everyone and come back alone" type of Rambo game... We will see how this
game will be modeled (this T-72), I know that Croats used some old Shermans
from WW2 in some fights, in first part of the war they were very inferior to
Serbs regarding armour, in 1995. maybe not so but don't know exact figures.
But in fact morale of Serbian forces was never very high, with mobilization
rate of 8% I think in Belgarde (others were hiding somewhere). In fact to be
fair historian as I am :)  - this war was more or less shame on everyone in
the Balkans. I was against it and I didn't took any part in it. In fact in
my recent article that I wrote, I just wrote how history can be cruel, in
fact Serbs are getting "late" wisdom now, they are talking about
decentralization of Kosovo, democracy, and about cantonization of Kosovo and
that 20 years LATE. Great wisdom of Serbs. In fact whole Balkans should have
been cantonized 10 years ago. Everyone wanted democracy but on some other
account.


Mario
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 5:30:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Bloodstar" <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:cv72l4$ebr$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
> game will be modeled (this T-72), I know that Croats used some old
Shermans
> from WW2 in some fights, in first part of the war they were very inferior
to

Didn't see any Shermans in action but there were plenty of M36 Jacksons on
both sides together with M18 Hellcats and at lest one SU-100 was used by
Bosnian Serbs. T-34 together with T-55 was standard tank and 90mm on M36 is
more then enough to knock out T-34 although actually there was very little
armor combat and tanks and SPGs were mostly used to neutralize bunkers and
support infantry WW1 style. ;-)

> Serbs regarding armour, in 1995. maybe not so but don't know exact
figures.

War in Croatia is specific in the fact that Yugoslav People's Army (there
weren't just Serbs in it) had huge number of MBTs and APCs (not to mention
artillery) but lacked infantry so it had to relay on tank and mechanized
brigades to carry operations that would need lots of infantry since in
reality there was very little "good tank country" that wasn't ruined by
mines.

> But in fact morale of Serbian forces was never very high, with
mobilization
> rate of 8% I think in Belgarde (others were hiding somewhere). In fact to
be

Something like that in one case out of entire reserve brigade in Belgrade
only 9 officers and 6 soldiers showed up.


--
http://www.vojska.net/
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 5:35:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:qmmc11pjbh5mbl6jlra0bl9dpck5u6cbvu@4ax.com...
> But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
> their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit, that they
> don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s, and that they think
> T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
> then they may actually produce solid action game. But I don't think it
> belongs to this group.

Just as long they don't put sewer system under Pristina or any other city it
will be fine. >:-)
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 6:17:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> And where did you read that?

http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html

Lot's of bullshit there, and you can have a good laugh - i didn't even read
everything, I will read all later.

BTW, I remember when around 1994. some Serbian professor, my friend but who
like to say some fantasy things said to me " you know Russian have send some
tanks to the Serbian in Krajina, they are fast, 200 km/hour, and they just
knock down trees in woods..." :o )

BTW, I don't have anything against this game but I think that will be a
history bullshit because Croatian and Bosnian side didn't had so many tanks
like Serbian so making a game of Russian volunteer who will now seat in his
game and shoot 100 Croatian or Bosnian tank is fantasy RPG like Ultima VII
was. And also I don't like games where you must choose stronger side for
solo play, side that actually had every weapon available and in much bigger
quantity. A lot more interesting gameplay is to play weaker side. That's not
romathic playing stronger side :) 
In fact I don't like games that force you to choose one side in solo play as
I said, because there is a story and because game design is like that that
it will not show real war condition here because no player of those Russian
volunteer would like to see actual situation because that would be masochism
in case of Vukovar scenario where they lost 10000 soldiers (Vuk Draskovic
that said, their minister)

So this game will be totally ahistorical I think. I hope that they will
model tank battles in Vukovar so I can see if I can shoot 12 tanks my self
with bazooka :)  at least in multiplayer.


Mario
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 6:17:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Bloodstar" <george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:cv7dgv$pah$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
> BTW, I remember when around 1994. some Serbian professor, my friend but
who
> like to say some fantasy things said to me " you know Russian have send
some
> tanks to the Serbian in Krajina, they are fast, 200 km/hour, and they just
> knock down trees in woods..." :o )

US Croat told he have a brigade with 1000 M-84 in Vukovar! >:-)))

> BTW, I don't have anything against this game but I think that will be a
> history bullshit because Croatian and Bosnian side didn't had so many
tanks
> like Serbian so making a game of Russian volunteer who will now seat in
his
> game and shoot 100 Croatian or Bosnian tank is fantasy RPG like Ultima VII

We had grand total of 287 tank in 1998! During 1991 some 240 T-55, T-55A,
M-84 were captured from YPA barracks so very few were lost during the war.
http://www.vojska.net/military/croatia/equipment/armor/...

So tank vs. tank action in the game should be mininal.

> was. And also I don't like games where you must choose stronger side for
> solo play, side that actually had every weapon available and in much
bigger
> quantity. A lot more interesting gameplay is to play weaker side. That's
not
> romathic playing stronger side :) 

Who was weaker? We had over 200,000 troops vs. YPA and Serb TO below
100,000, of course they had entire air force, some 1000 tanks, several
hundred APCs and more artillery then Zukov and Konev at Berlin. ;-)

If they stick to reality game could be really challenging since you'll be
always lacking infantry protection and forced to fight in urban areas.

> So this game will be totally ahistorical I think.

Not necessarily, they are banning idiots from forum. ;-)
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=g...;f=46;t=000014
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 6:55:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

>> T72 is superior to M1A1 Abrams (just read their, developers, website)
>
> And where did you read that?

http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html

It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument that
the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to be a
Western media conspiracy.

Best regards, Major H.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 7:57:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...

> > And where did you read that?
>
> http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
>
> It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
> that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument that
> the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to be a
> Western media conspiracy.

The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.

The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.

Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
western tank here>.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
February 19, 2005 7:57:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c81806f24478d1498a1b2@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
>
> > > And where did you read that?
> >
> > http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
> >
> > It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
> > that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument
that
> > the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to
be a
> > Western media conspiracy.
>
> The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
>
> The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
> insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
> 1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
> stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
>
> Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
> smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
> western tank here>.
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
> and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
> We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'
>
> The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
> mean, *we*?'
>
> It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
> allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
> amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
> we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
> blah.
>
> If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
> would never have taken place."
> - Jay Nordlinger



I don't agree with the article, but at the same time, the 72's exported
to the Med nations were not the same as the stock Soviet version iirc.
I.e., I think the Soviet version had thermal sights, the export version
didn't ? Major H ?

Let alone, I doubt that a Syrian or Iraqi 72 crew would match a Soviet
one, in the same tank.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 8:09:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <Xns9602A0EBA9229mortimertherat@130.133.1.18>,
alsandorz@rogers.com says...

> > It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the
> > article is that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more
> > of an argument that the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what
> > the author perceives to be a Western media conspiracy.
>
> Which could well be the case.

On that Bizzarro would from the Superman comics where everything is
backwards, surely.

> How would it have looked if anyone in Washington during the Reagan
> administration has said: "Really, boss, those Soviets have a really
> bitching tank in the T-72, a LOT better than anything we have. If we
> let the public know, they will certainly agree we should buy this for
> our own armed forces."

<laughter>

Of course, this is *exactly* what they said. Or is it your contention
that folks at the Pentagon are wont to argue, "The <enemy weapon here>
is just junk, and we don't need to spend any money on new weapons to
counter it."

Yeah. Uh-huh.

In reality, the impetus is for military men of every stripe (and from
every country) to be extremely respectful of the capabilities of enemy
weapons. And in Washington, you can't chisel a nickel out of Congress
unless you spend every waking moment asserting that enemy weapons
systems are all Ten Feet Tall.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 8:40:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On 19 Feb 2005 04:51:02 -0800, acca170@yahoo.com wrote:

>> But I have no particular problem with that. If we accept that
>> their "background story" is truckload of fantasy bullshit
>> don't know much about "Balkan wars" of the 90s,
>
>The short story of the war in the website is quite "neutral" and to the
>point. And the disclaimer is very clear.

Short story is taken from third party site (not developers') and
is quite neutral as you say.

But then again it has nothing to do with how war is/will be
depicted in the game itself, and scenarios described on devs site
(judging from "background" and "overview" sections on the site).

O.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 8:43:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:59:39 +0100, "Ivan Bajlo"
<ivan.bajlo@zg.htnet.hr> wrote:

>> game and shoot 100 Croatian or Bosnian tank is fantasy RPG like Ultima VII
>
>We had grand total of 287 tank in 1998! During 1991 some 240 T-55, T-55A,
>M-84 were captured from YPA barracks so very few were lost during the war.
>http://www.vojska.net/military/croatia/equipment/armor/...
>
>So tank vs. tank action in the game should be mininal.

Yes, but this game is NOT realistic depiction of Balkan combat
in the 90s.

Bajlo you'd be happy to hear Croats will have Leopard Is in
their inventory in this game ;o)

O.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 9:14:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <Xns9602B8572DBEEmortimertherat@130.133.1.18>,
alsandorz@rogers.com says...

> Obviously the US military knew the Soviet had respectable equipment
> otherwise they would have been tempted to prepare invasions in 1945,
> 195x, 196x, 197x, 198x... They didn't, or if they did, they didn't
> carry them out, which indicates to me they were very much aware that
> any attempts to go head to head with the Soviets would result in
> unacceptable losses.

It occurs to me that if we reverse "Soviet" and "US" in this paragraph,
we reach an equivalently stupid point of view.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 12:17:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Didn't see any Shermans in action but there were plenty of M36 Jacksons on
> both sides together with M18 Hellcats and at lest one SU-100 was used by
> Bosnian Serbs. T-34 together with T-55 was standard tank and 90mm on M36
is
> more then enough to knock out T-34 although actually there was very little
> armor combat and tanks and SPGs were mostly used to neutralize bunkers and
> support infantry WW1 style. ;-)

Well, one of my cousin who fough in 100 and something zagrebacka brigada, he
is near you (Malesnica) and he told me that they had Shermans on Banija but
maybe he don't know the difference, I don't know so...

> War in Croatia is specific in the fact that Yugoslav People's Army (there
> weren't just Serbs in it) had huge number of MBTs and APCs (not to mention
> artillery) but lacked infantry so it had to relay on tank and mechanized
> brigades to carry operations that would need lots of infantry since in
> reality there was very little "good tank country" that wasn't ruined by
> mines.

OK, can't argue that :o )

> Something like that in one case out of entire reserve brigade in Belgrade
> only 9 officers and 6 soldiers showed up.

:) 
They had lot's of low lifes and bunch of weekend chetnicks and nobodys. In
fact Russians are "half crazy" - and if they making game based on their dogs
of war, so be it :o ))) I am all for that, I also want to see Che Guevarra in
Angola, and South America :o ) To drive those Ford vans with built-in machine
guns in Africa :o )
Maybe game would be cool after all so we can play those savage people from
The Balkans :o )
Erh, just joking, no offense to anybody :o )


Mario
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 12:31:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> US Croat told he have a brigade with 1000 M-84 in Vukovar! >:) ))

Well, I have another story: I've heard a story from one guy who fought as
volunteer in Croatian army (Croat from Montenegro) and he told me that he
have some devices with him and he in fact intercepted some signals from
Awacs (spelling?) when he was around Udbina in some bushes (ambush or
something, he was good soldier BTW) and he knew about air attack of NATO on
Serbian Udbina airfield 5 hours before it happened. So he alarmed Croatian
high command around 23 PM and next morning NATO actually did attacked Udbina
aifield. Well, I don't know if that is really possible so I will put this
story in half-fantasy :o )

> We had grand total of 287 tank in 1998! During 1991 some 240 T-55, T-55A,
> M-84 were captured from YPA barracks so very few were lost during the war.
> http://www.vojska.net/military/croatia/equipment/armor/...
>
> So tank vs. tank action in the game should be mininal.

All right, all credit to you for nice work on this.

> Who was weaker? We had over 200,000 troops vs. YPA and Serb TO below
> 100,000, of course they had entire air force, some 1000 tanks, several
> hundred APCs and more artillery then Zukov and Konev at Berlin. >;-)

Yes, I was refering to weapons of war not on manpower. :o )
Even, China had huge manpower in XIX century but that didn't helped them
because every nation could put few regiments and march to Peking for rape
and pillaging of treasures and then enforced them paying war tributes.
Emperor would just escape and hide somewhere in China, land was so big so
they didn't followed him haha :o ))))

> If they stick to reality game could be really challenging since you'll be
> always lacking infantry protection and forced to fight in urban areas.

We will see... They got my attention.

> > So this game will be totally ahistorical I think.
>
> Not necessarily, they are banning idiots from forum. ;-)
>
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?&gt;ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=0000
14

This is very good to see :o ) To hell with them...


Mario
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 4:37:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:34:03 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I don't agree with the article, but at the same time, the 72's exported
>to the Med nations were not the same as the stock Soviet version iirc.
>I.e., I think the Soviet version had thermal sights, the export version
>didn't ? Major H ?

...and now, back to the game!

T-72 exported to <insert nation here> were inferior to Russian
ones, and game would want us to believe there was some phantom
"Russian volunteer company" (never heard of them) fighting in the
Balkans, on the side of their "orthodox Serb brothers", against "Croat
catholics" (how stupid) in Russian army T-72s? Just how did they
transport their T-72s to Yugoslavia would make a story on its own,
even if we manage to cast aside rest of the drivel.

But I really want to drive a "catholic Leopard Is" game would
have you believe Germans sold to Croats. (Yes they did, but no more
than a handful, perhaps not enough to equip an armored company - Bajlo
if you know more, please post).

See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...

O.
February 20, 2005 4:37:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:3emf11hvpedfb6f5g9pcm4okfbu43jillf@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:34:03 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't agree with the article, but at the same time, the 72's
exported
> >to the Med nations were not the same as the stock Soviet version iirc.
> >I.e., I think the Soviet version had thermal sights, the export version
> >didn't ? Major H ?
>
> ...and now, back to the game!
>
> T-72 exported to <insert nation here> were inferior to Russian
> ones, and game would want us to believe there was some phantom
> "Russian volunteer company" (never heard of them) fighting in the
> Balkans, on the side of their "orthodox Serb brothers", against "Croat
> catholics" (how stupid) in Russian army T-72s? Just how did they
> transport their T-72s to Yugoslavia would make a story on its own,
> even if we manage to cast aside rest of the drivel.
>
> But I really want to drive a "catholic Leopard Is" game would
> have you believe Germans sold to Croats. (Yes they did, but no more
> than a handful, perhaps not enough to equip an armored company - Bajlo
> if you know more, please post).
>
> See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
> but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
> fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
> skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
> unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
>
> O.



Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
some T-90's instead ? <g>







>
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 4:37:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <ZERRd.126$nQ5.1055@eagle.america.net>, jp@hotmail.com
says...

> Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
> some T-90's instead ? <g>

Why bother with a T-90, when the T-72 has been unconditionally
triumphant over all comers since the Nixon Administration?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
February 20, 2005 4:37:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c81c359f523c32b98a1b5@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <ZERRd.126$nQ5.1055@eagle.america.net>, jp@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
> > some T-90's instead ? <g>
>
> Why bother with a T-90, when the T-72 has been unconditionally
> triumphant over all comers since the Nixon Administration?
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
> and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
> We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'
>
> The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
> mean, *we*?'
>
> It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
> allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
> amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
> we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
> blah.
>
> If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
> would never have taken place."
> - Jay Nordlinger



Hehe.
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 6:34:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:23:20 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
>> but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
>> fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
>> skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
>> unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
>
> Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
>some T-90's instead ? <g>

Indeed....

"Tovarich Major Pavlov, Corporal Ivanov speaking. I just signed
to Russian volunteer company, I go to fight on the side of our Serb
Orthodox brothers in the Balkans. Please issue me one T-90, little
used, to drive down there. And please don't suspend my army pay while
I'm away fighting vs. vicious 'Croat catholics'".

Fun :o )

O.
February 20, 2005 6:34:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:cktf11174kgvla4v2g3qh47748lqa6do5g@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:23:20 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
> >> but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
> >> fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
> >> skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
> >> unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
> >
> > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
> >some T-90's instead ? <g>
>
> Indeed....
>
> "Tovarich Major Pavlov, Corporal Ivanov speaking. I just signed
> to Russian volunteer company, I go to fight on the side of our Serb
> Orthodox brothers in the Balkans. Please issue me one T-90, little
> used, to drive down there. And please don't suspend my army pay while
> I'm away fighting vs. vicious 'Croat catholics'".
>
> Fun :o )
>
> O.


Hehe.
















>
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 7:25:57 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:r1re11pposs33v3uqimijcqlt75al11k09@4ax.com...
> Yes, but this game is NOT realistic depiction of Balkan combat
> in the 90s.
>
> Bajlo you'd be happy to hear Croats will have Leopard Is in
> their inventory in this game ;o)

Cool, let's not forget Leo 2, Abrams, Panthers and Tigers which we also got.
>:-)

BTW didn't see M-47 Pattons on the list and there were several of them.
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 7:51:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:3emf11hvpedfb6f5g9pcm4okfbu43jillf@4ax.com...
> But I really want to drive a "catholic Leopard Is" game would
> have you believe Germans sold to Croats. (Yes they did, but no more
> than a handful, perhaps not enough to equip an armored company - Bajlo
> if you know more, please post).

Nope nobody I know has ever seen a Leo in Croatian army - either in one
piece or in pieces - closes thing was T-55 of 4. gbr which had added sheets
of metal and rubber for extra protection so from a distance it could be
mistaken for Leo.

Just another urban legend together with Mig-29, Su-25 which are suppose to
be in crates never assembled etc.

All the junk that did really arrive was shown publicly and still is, Mi-24
are rotting away on Pleso airfield lacking parts to fly, and we probably
still have S-300 missiles but lacking everything else to launch them.

Funny how during WW2 every German tank was reported as Panther or Tiger
while it was only T-34 in German service or only StuG III and in last war we
had T-55 reported as Leo's. ;-))
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 9:00:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> T-72 exported to <insert nation here> were inferior to Russian
> ones, and game would want us to believe there was some phantom
> "Russian volunteer company" (never heard of them) fighting in the
> Balkans, on the side of their "orthodox Serb brothers", against "Croat
> catholics" (how stupid) in Russian army T-72s? Just how did they
> transport their T-72s to Yugoslavia would make a story on its own,
> even if we manage to cast aside rest of the drivel.

Dont't want to defend our Slavic bratjuskas Russians :o ) but maybe they
think that Yugoslav M-84 was in fact T-72 on steroids and just a variant of
T-72 anyway?

So when sons of the steppes and veterans of stealing chickens in Afghanistan
mountains came to Serbia they issued them all new
M-84's.

;) 


Mario
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:47:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:56 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
>
>> > And where did you read that?
>>
>> http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
>>
>> It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
>> that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument that
>> the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to be a
>> Western media conspiracy.
>
>The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
>
>The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
>insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
>1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
>stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
>
>Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
>smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
>western tank here>.

I recall talking to some people in the early 90s that were evaluating
the soviet military equipment that made it's way west after the
reunification of Germany. The consensus seemed to be that the soviet
tanks really were pretty shitty. Problems were mainly with the
auto-loader and aquiring targets while on the move.

I remember that the only piece of Soviet equipment they were really
impressed with was the Mig-29. where they were of the opinion that you
could mate it with 'western' avionics and have a fighter at least as
good as anything in the west.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 1:45:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:17:31 +0100, "Bloodstar"
<george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


>Well, one of my cousin who fough in 100 and something zagrebacka brigada, he
>is near you (Malesnica) and he told me that they had Shermans on Banija but
>maybe he don't know the difference, I don't know so...

I think what he saw were Jacksons (M 36). They were used by 2nd Guard brigade
("Thunders") and were subsequently reassigned to 5th Antitank Batallion that
used them in 1995 in Operation Storm. I was with 5th in 1995.


Drax
remove JAMRZIMSPAM for reply
February 21, 2005 3:01:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g=4ZQmuN3cnXe3ncXy8KttFTWXBS@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:56 -0500, Giftzwerg
> <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
> >
> >> > And where did you read that?
> >>
> >> http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
> >>
> >> It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article
is
> >> that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument
that
> >> the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to
be a
> >> Western media conspiracy.
> >
> >The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
> >
> >The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
> >insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
> >1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
> >stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
> >
> >Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
> >smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
> >western tank here>.
>
> I recall talking to some people in the early 90s that were evaluating
> the soviet military equipment that made it's way west after the
> reunification of Germany. The consensus seemed to be that the soviet
> tanks really were pretty shitty. Problems were mainly with the
> auto-loader and aquiring targets while on the move.
>
> I remember that the only piece of Soviet equipment they were really
> impressed with was the Mig-29. where they were of the opinion that you
> could mate it with 'western' avionics and have a fighter at least as
> good as anything in the west.
>
> Rgds, Frank


Yeah, I recall some show on Discovery awhile back about the Mig-29's in
East Germany. Something like 40 + East German pilots were trying to get
into the new German AF.........seven made it.

Remember they had a bunch of USAF guys helping to "evaluate" them, and
with the US guys in their usual F-15's and 16's, they dominated the East
Germans in their 29's. So the Germans blamed it on the US planes being
better (the US was trying to impress the idea of "it's the pilot"). US guys
switched to some obsolete jet, can't recall, F-4's maybe.
Same results.

Bascially, the Soviet doctrines, which the East was using obviously,
didn't cut it <g> So rigid, it didn't allow the East guys to fly their 29's
(an outstanding jet as is) to their potential.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 3:14:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> I think what he saw were Jacksons (M 36). They were used by 2nd Guard
brigade
> ("Thunders") and were subsequently reassigned to 5th Antitank Batallion
that
> used them in 1995 in Operation Storm. I was with 5th in 1995.

Oh my friend Drax, we will both forget arguing from the past and really no
hard feelings toward you from my side.

Thanks for clarification. I have a friend who is still in 2nd Guards Brigade
but I didn't heard from him long time, he told me many stories about action
were he participated, forcing of Una (not succesful action but Serbs did
have even heavier losses, and also one time Serbs air strike have missed
them for about 400m droping cluster bombs (cassete?) on their column, they
had big luck.


Mario
February 21, 2005 6:26:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Ivan Bajlo" <ivan.bajlo@zg.htnet.hr> wrote in message
news:cv7efn$ac$1@news1.xnet.hr...
> Didn't see any Shermans in action but there were plenty of M36

I saw one on a video when the JNA was leaving Poligon C near Osijek.. It had
that old M3 75 mm gun..
February 21, 2005 6:41:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:rrqe115et2kggc4kddahbclpq065hd9mo7@4ax.com...
> On 19 Feb 2005 04:51:02 -0800, acca170@yahoo.com wrote:
> But then again it has nothing to do with how war is/will be
> depicted in the game itself, and scenarios described on devs site
> (judging from "background" and "overview" sections on the site).

They probably lack missions like "Fire all your tank's HE ammo in direction
of that small town at random houses. Then reload and repeat the process."
which are a necessity to make the game more realistic.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:13:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"agh" <agh@kjh.com> wrote in message news:cvcrv7$ub9$1@news.siemens.at...
> They probably lack missions like "Fire all your tank's HE ammo in
direction
> of that small town at random houses. Then reload and repeat the process."
> which are a necessity to make the game more realistic.

Not to mention mission should take several days to complete with next
mission being absolutely the same with only difference name of the village.
;-))
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 11:40:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:14:17 +0100, "Bloodstar"
<george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


>Oh my friend Drax, we will both forget arguing from the past and really no
>hard feelings toward you from my side.

Likewise. It's not that we have an abundance of wargame enthusiasts in
our little neck of woods.

>Thanks for clarification. I have a friend who is still in 2nd Guards Brigade
>but I didn't heard from him long time, he told me many stories about action
>were he participated, forcing of Una (not succesful action but Serbs did
>have even heavier losses, and also one time Serbs air strike have missed
>them for about 400m droping cluster bombs (cassete?) on their column, they
>had big luck.

If he was referring to the failed operation "Una" that took place in
September 1995, I was in Kostajnica than awaiting the crossing of our
AT batallion as second wave. According to plan, we were supposed to
face Bosnian Serb M-84 tank brigade as a part of the flank AT screen.
Needless to say, I was not overly thrilled by the prospects of our
Jacksons facing M-84s.

This operation was one of the major SNAFUs from our war that I am
aware of.


Drax
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 1:43:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Likewise. It's not that we have an abundance of wargame enthusiasts in
> our little neck of woods.

In fact, most important have gathered in this thread :) 


> If he was referring to the failed operation "Una" that took place in
> September 1995, I was in Kostajnica than awaiting the crossing of our
> AT batallion as second wave. According to plan, we were supposed to
> face Bosnian Serb M-84 tank brigade as a part of the flank AT screen.
> Needless to say, I was not overly thrilled by the prospects of our
> Jacksons facing M-84s.
>
> This operation was one of the major SNAFUs from our war that I am
> aware of.

Yes, operation "Una" in 1995. He crossed the river but didn't talked too
much how hard was resistance, but when I asked about our losses, he said
"40" and when I asked what he think about estimate Serbian losse, he said
with a smile "500" :o )))) But, good soldier is not mentioning individual
kills :o )))
As I've heard from one guy, M-84 was leathal tank, he was also from Bosnia
and he told me that M-84 had automatic locking of targets (whatever that may
be), I never read too much about modern tanks, I know a basic. But, if those
Jakcsons were kept so long then they are very good weapon, of course no
match for M-84.


Mario
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 4:36:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:43:31 +0100, "Bloodstar"
<george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


>In fact, most important have gathered in this thread :) 

All four of us, :o )

>Yes, operation "Una" in 1995.

When operation "Storm" ended, my AT battalion was left at Kostajnica as
garrison. August and early September passed in boredom and "liberation" of
whatever spirit we could track.

Then we heard the news from Bosnian radio how Bosnian troops liberated Bosanska
Krupa and were on their way north to Prijedor, another Bosnian Serb stronghold.
A quick glance on the map, showed that if Bosnians capture Prijedor, entire Serb
controlled region on the south bank of Una would be cut off from the rest of the
Republic of Srpska and forced to surrender.

Apparently, Croatian general staff could read maps too.

Bosnian Serbs also had that ability so their radio stations were calling for
volunteers to join in the defense and asked population to defend their homes.
Nevertheless, Serb population was not stupid and started to pack their bags.

Throughout the weekend preceding the start of the operation "Una" we were
monitoring what was going on across the river in Bosanska Kostajnica. Local
authority stopped the blackout which was going on ever since we got there and it
was obvious there was a panic there.

That saturday I personally escorted a group of high school teachers who helped
clean the local high school in Kostajnica all the way to the damaged bridge
between two towns. Some teachers even went towards the river and waved towards
the other side, provoking it. Nothing happened.

On Sunday, all vacations were suspended and we got our marching orders for
Monday. Our job was to give fire support from our two Jacksons when the crossing
started. We also had a battery of towed AT guns T-12 100mm dugged in and
camouflaged.

Monday morning came, we got our recognition stripes, but morning fog apparently
prevented any offensive action. I casually went to the centre of the city to buy
newspaper and cigarettes for my addict friends.

High noon came and fog lifted. It was time for me to drive few kilometers back
to collect lunch. I drove up the road in perfect site of whatever Serb across
the river, got the lunch, drove back and saw several families of returned
Croatian refugees sitting in their homes, preparing for lunch.

I safely got back, delivered the food and soon after artillery preparation
started...

On Wednesday morning everything was over. We never fired a shot, we remained at
our base playing cards and eating while sporadic artillery duel lasted.

Serb radio, that was in the gloom and defiant mode during the preceding week,
now became cheerful, ful of Serb marching songs, announcing great victory in
repelling "ustasha agressors".

Before I went home to my three day vacation, I managed to sneak into the
operational order that called for four day action, involving crossing the river
and our task in this whole mess.

When I got home, my father showed me the newspapers that were writing about
"constant provocations" from Serb side that we "could not tolerate any more and
had to intervene". I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry.

Bosnians did not take Krupa and Prijedor was not in danger so Serbs did not have
to weaken their forces on the river as someone in Croatian general staff hoped
for.

This general was relieved, Bosnians eventually liberated Krupa, we remained in
Kostajnica pending our redeployment to Slavonia for operation "Dunav 95", i.e.
liberation of Vukovar.

Thanks to the Dayton peace accord, we were never redeployed and I was
demobilised in late November.


>As I've heard from one guy, M-84 was leathal tank, he was also from Bosnia
>and he told me that M-84 had automatic locking of targets (whatever that may
>be),

When I was in Yugoslav Army in 1987 we were told the same thing. We were told to
expect to fire no more than two shots from our towed AT guns before we had to
change position.

> I never read too much about modern tanks, I know a basic. But, if those
>Jakcsons were kept so long then they are very good weapon, of course no
>match for M-84.

They got diesel engines and better roof when they were modernised in early
fifities. I believe they were all mothballed before the war and served well in
1991. However, by 1995 most of the engines were thoroughly unreliable and out of
eight machines we had on the eve of Operation "Storm", only four could be
trusted on.

We used them mostly for indirect fire support, but this wasn't without dangers
as we saw at Petrinja...

I leave that for some other post.


Drax
remove JAMRZIMSPAM for reply
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 11:12:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> When operation "Storm" ended, my AT battalion was left at Kostajnica as
> garrison. August and early September passed in boredom and "liberation" of
> whatever spirit we could track.
>
> Then we heard the news from Bosnian radio how Bosnian troops liberated
Bosanska
> Krupa and were on their way north to Prijedor, another Bosnian Serb
stronghold.
> A quick glance on the map, showed that if Bosnians capture Prijedor,
entire Serb
> controlled region on the south bank of Una would be cut off from the rest
of the
> Republic of Srpska and forced to surrender.
>
> Apparently, Croatian general staff could read maps too.
>
> Bosnian Serbs also had that ability so their radio stations were calling
for
> volunteers to join in the defense and asked population to defend their
homes.
> Nevertheless, Serb population was not stupid and started to pack their
bags.
>
> Throughout the weekend preceding the start of the operation "Una" we were
> monitoring what was going on across the river in Bosanska Kostajnica.
Local
> authority stopped the blackout which was going on ever since we got there
and it
> was obvious there was a panic there.
>
> That saturday I personally escorted a group of high school teachers who
helped
> clean the local high school in Kostajnica all the way to the damaged
bridge
> between two towns. Some teachers even went towards the river and waved
towards
> the other side, provoking it. Nothing happened.
>
> On Sunday, all vacations were suspended and we got our marching orders for
> Monday. Our job was to give fire support from our two Jacksons when the
crossing
> started. We also had a battery of towed AT guns T-12 100mm dugged in and
> camouflaged.
>
> Monday morning came, we got our recognition stripes, but morning fog
apparently
> prevented any offensive action. I casually went to the centre of the city
to buy
> newspaper and cigarettes for my addict friends.
>
> High noon came and fog lifted. It was time for me to drive few kilometers
back
> to collect lunch. I drove up the road in perfect site of whatever Serb
across
> the river, got the lunch, drove back and saw several families of returned
> Croatian refugees sitting in their homes, preparing for lunch.
>
> I safely got back, delivered the food and soon after artillery preparation
> started...
>
> On Wednesday morning everything was over. We never fired a shot, we
remained at
> our base playing cards and eating while sporadic artillery duel lasted.
>
> Serb radio, that was in the gloom and defiant mode during the preceding
week,
> now became cheerful, ful of Serb marching songs, announcing great victory
in
> repelling "ustasha agressors".
>
> Before I went home to my three day vacation, I managed to sneak into the
> operational order that called for four day action, involving crossing the
river
> and our task in this whole mess.
>
> When I got home, my father showed me the newspapers that were writing
about
> "constant provocations" from Serb side that we "could not tolerate any
more and
> had to intervene". I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry.
>
> Bosnians did not take Krupa and Prijedor was not in danger so Serbs did
not have
> to weaken their forces on the river as someone in Croatian general staff
hoped
> for.
>
> This general was relieved, Bosnians eventually liberated Krupa, we
remained in
> Kostajnica pending our redeployment to Slavonia for operation "Dunav 95",
i.e.
> liberation of Vukovar.
>
> Thanks to the Dayton peace accord, we were never redeployed and I was
> demobilised in late November.

Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...

> We used them mostly for indirect fire support, but this wasn't without
dangers
> as we saw at Petrinja...
>
> I leave that for some other post.

Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...

Regards,


Mario
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 8:34:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

george.washington@microsoft.com wrote:
> Bosanska
> stronghold.
> entire Serb
> of the
> for
> homes.
> bags.
> Local
> and it
> helped
> bridge
> towards
> crossing
> apparently
> to buy
> back
> across
> remained at
> week,
> in
> river
> about
> more and
> not have
> hoped
> remained in
> i.e.
> Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...
> dangers
> Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...
> Regards,
> Mario

Thanks!

volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 8:34:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <42403b0d@news.012.net.il>, volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com
says...

> > Bosanska
> > stronghold.
> > entire Serb
> > of the
> > for
> > homes.
> > bags.
> > Local
> > and it
> > helped
> > bridge
> > towards
> > crossing
> > apparently
> > to buy
> > back
> > across
> > remained at
> > week,
> > in
> > river
> > about
> > more and
> > not have
> > hoped
> > remained in
> > i.e.
> > Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...
> > dangers
> > Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...
> > Regards,
> > Mario
>
> Thanks!
>
> volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com

Is the bulk of this poem written in iambic unimeter? Duometer?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"So if you are a Democrat your value system works like this....

Unborn Child? Kill It.
Sick Woman? Kill it.
Convicted Murder on death row? Do every thing you can do to save it!"

- Wizbang Paul
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 3:47:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Thanks!
>
> volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com

Well, you are welcome, our Usenet theatre will do anything to please the
public. Even Her Majesty Queen was satisfied. ;) 


Mario
!