Stupid "security" tricks...

G

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Not to crack specifically on Matrixgames - because this sort of idiocy
is near-universal - but can anyone explain to my why my newly-downloaded
FLASHPOINT GERMANY patch wants my serial number for the game before it
installs?

a) A patch - by definition - is utterly and completely worthless to
someone who doesn't have the game installed *already*.

b) If you already have the game installed, you must have a serial
number - whether purchased, stolen, or cracked.

(c) Ergo, it's not possible for someone to have the game installed
without prior possession of a serial number, and asking for it *again*
offers no security advantage whatsoever.

I mean, can anyone show me a reasonable scenario - however Byzantine -
where a script-kiddie-type would be stymied in his enjoyment of his
purloined copy of FPG by the patch bawling for a serial number?

I mention this because my serial number is at home. My laptop, game,
and patch are here. Thus honest, Matrix-liking, FPG-fan Giftzwerg is
going to have to wait until he's back at his house to try out the
patched game.

Annoying.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
page revelations from secretly recorded phone
conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
hit 70 percent."
- Mickey Kaus
 
G

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Giftzwerg wrote:
> Not to crack specifically on Matrixgames - because this sort of
idiocy
> is near-universal - but can anyone explain to my why my
newly-downloaded
> FLASHPOINT GERMANY patch wants my serial number for the game before
it
> installs?

Plan B : logon to the Matrixgames members area - there's an option
there to have your serial numbers sent to your email-address.

There's no logical explanation for it - You can only download the patch
if you have registered the game - which pretty much rules out people
using a cracked version or games with a "borrowed" serial - The fact
that you are able to download the patch *is* the security.

But you asked for a Byzantine explanation so here goes :)

1) The InstallShield script used to create the original installation
exe was re-used for the patch.

2) Matrixgames was recently audited for ISO<whatever> compliancy and
this was a requirement.

3) Matrixgames is home to Alien Space Bats who eat cereals for
breakfast - some lower-management type heard they were running out of
"serials" and came up with a clever plan to increase the intake.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
G

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James Gassaway wrote:
> <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1109102133.665277.33540@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > But you asked for a Byzantine explanation so here goes :)
> >
> > 1) The InstallShield script used to create the original
installation
> > exe was re-used for the patch.
> >
> > 2) Matrixgames was recently audited for ISO<whatever> compliancy
and
> > this was a requirement.
> >
> > 3) Matrixgames is home to Alien Space Bats who eat cereals for
> > breakfast - some lower-management type heard they were running out
of
> > "serials" and came up with a clever plan to increase the intake.
> >
>
> I vote #3

I know it's hard to tell :) - but #3 is the only one I actually made up
- #1 and #2 are based on Real Life (tm)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 

lupi

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That's what you get for supporting their method of business at your expense
practice.

lupi

"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c854c547a3e50b998a1ba@news-east.giganews.com...
>
> Not to crack specifically on Matrixgames - because this sort of idiocy
> is near-universal - but can anyone explain to my why my newly-downloaded
> FLASHPOINT GERMANY patch wants my serial number for the game before it
> installs?
>
> a) A patch - by definition - is utterly and completely worthless to
> someone who doesn't have the game installed *already*.
>
> b) If you already have the game installed, you must have a serial
> number - whether purchased, stolen, or cracked.
>
> (c) Ergo, it's not possible for someone to have the game installed
> without prior possession of a serial number, and asking for it *again*
> offers no security advantage whatsoever.
>
> I mean, can anyone show me a reasonable scenario - however Byzantine -
> where a script-kiddie-type would be stymied in his enjoyment of his
> purloined copy of FPG by the patch bawling for a serial number?
>
> I mention this because my serial number is at home. My laptop, game,
> and patch are here. Thus honest, Matrix-liking, FPG-fan Giftzwerg is
> going to have to wait until he's back at his house to try out the
> patched game.
>
> Annoying.
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> "The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
> the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
> page revelations from secretly recorded phone
> conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
> hit 70 percent."
> - Mickey Kaus
 
G

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Giftzwerg <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1c854c547a3e50b998a1ba@news-east.giganews.com:

> I mean, can anyone show me a reasonable scenario - however Byzantine -
> where a script-kiddie-type would be stymied in his enjoyment of his
> purloined copy of FPG by the patch bawling for a serial number?

On many cracked games either an installed version is packaged up with the
serial in it, or the internal code which does a check for the serial is
bypassed. Therefore most crack-players have no idea what their code is.

Gandalf Parker
 
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In article <saOSd.4828$SF.4474@lakeread08>, lupi@cox.net says...

> That's what you get for supporting their method of business at your expense
> practice.

Huh?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
page revelations from secretly recorded phone
conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
hit 70 percent."
- Mickey Kaus
 
G

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In article <Xns9605760F33D9gandalfparker@208.201.224.154>,
gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites says...

> > I mean, can anyone show me a reasonable scenario - however Byzantine -
> > where a script-kiddie-type would be stymied in his enjoyment of his
> > purloined copy of FPG by the patch bawling for a serial number?
>
> On many cracked games either an installed version is packaged up with the
> serial in it, or the internal code which does a check for the serial is
> bypassed. Therefore most crack-players have no idea what their code is.

Well, that's fine, but all it means is that he cannot install the patch
- until the patched version is packaged up into a new warez version,
that is. His cracked game still works just as it always did.

Oh, and, knowing that Matrix is going to ask for my serial number every
time I patch any of their software, can you guess where I keep my serial
numbers for all my Matrix games now?

If you picked, "In the same directory where the executable resides," you
win a cookie.[1]

[1] Of course, you'd think that Matrix would probably prefer that I
keep my serial number in a safe place - like I used to. But if they
were worried about this, they wouldn't have required that I have it
handy to install patches, right?



--
Giftzwerg
***
"The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
page revelations from secretly recorded phone
conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
hit 70 percent."
- Mickey Kaus
 
G

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<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109102133.665277.33540@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> But you asked for a Byzantine explanation so here goes :)
>
> 1) The InstallShield script used to create the original installation
> exe was re-used for the patch.
>
> 2) Matrixgames was recently audited for ISO<whatever> compliancy and
> this was a requirement.
>
> 3) Matrixgames is home to Alien Space Bats who eat cereals for
> breakfast - some lower-management type heard they were running out of
> "serials" and came up with a clever plan to increase the intake.
>

I vote #3

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
 
G

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Giftzwerg wrote:

> Oh, and, knowing that Matrix is going to ask for my serial number
every
> time I patch any of their software, can you guess where I keep my
serial
> numbers for all my Matrix games now?
>
> If you picked, "In the same directory where the executable resides,"
you
> win a cookie.[1]

Goodie - I won - I prefer if you could send it by courier - I hate
stale cookies :)

> [1] Of course, you'd think that Matrix would probably prefer that I
> keep my serial number in a safe place - like I used to. But if they
> were worried about this, they wouldn't have required that I have it
> handy to install patches, right?

If the devil ever needs an advocate ... :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
G

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Given the reiteration with which small and big publishers protect their
products *from the costumers* (since any pirate knows how to crack them or
where to find them already cracked), I often wondered if there is a sort of
law about it - like "you cannot enter in a legal argument about this or that
if your product was not protected". Something like needing an insurance for
your car before you are legally allowed to drive it. This could be an
explanation, but I do not know if it is true.

I work in the gaming field since 1988, and I was never able to offer a
rational explanation for copy protection.
 
G

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James Gassaway wrote:

> Ya, but #3 fits the pattern of behavior I've observed from them
better.

LOL - Ockham's razor strikes again :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
G

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<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109106076.215314.87580@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> James Gassaway wrote:
> > <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1109102133.665277.33540@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > But you asked for a Byzantine explanation so here goes :)
> > >
> > > 1) The InstallShield script used to create the original
> installation
> > > exe was re-used for the patch.
> > >
> > > 2) Matrixgames was recently audited for ISO<whatever> compliancy
> and
> > > this was a requirement.
> > >
> > > 3) Matrixgames is home to Alien Space Bats who eat cereals for
> > > breakfast - some lower-management type heard they were running out
> of
> > > "serials" and came up with a clever plan to increase the intake.
> > >
> >
> > I vote #3
>
> I know it's hard to tell :) - but #3 is the only one I actually made up
> - #1 and #2 are based on Real Life (tm)
>
Ya, but #3 fits the pattern of behavior I've observed from them better.

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
 
G

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> > Ya, but #3 fits the pattern of behavior I've observed from them
> better.

Somehow I knew James would pick that one.

Ok, to respond - Gandalf was closest to the mark. The serial number
protection on the updates is because while (as with other companies and
irrespective of whether we use fancier copy protection or not) games
are cracked, for niche titles the cracking groups don't always keep up
with the updates. We've found this to be a worthwhile secondary check
that frustrates some folks who prefer to get games without paying for
them and has virtually no downside (with a rare exception) for our
customers.

We specifically offer the Members Area, which allows you to register
your game and retrieve your serial number wherever, whenever for the
reason that we want to make it easy for you to be able to find it
again. I realize you had your order info unavailable, but that's
another way to find it - our online store supports lookup by order
number or payment info if you ever lose your serial.

With three different ways in place to retrieve serials, and no
disc-required copy protection, we've had overall a very good response
to this system. I realize instances like this will occur, but I think
that (with the Members Area and other methods to retrieve serials) it's
better than having to keep the disc with you or other alternatives.

Regards,

- Erik
 
G

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In article <1109172868.424125.257390@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
erikr@matrixgames.com says...

> > > Ya, but #3 fits the pattern of behavior I've observed from them
> > better.
>
> Somehow I knew James would pick that one.
>
> Ok, to respond - Gandalf was closest to the mark. The serial number
> protection on the updates is because while (as with other companies and
> irrespective of whether we use fancier copy protection or not) games
> are cracked, for niche titles the cracking groups don't always keep up
> with the updates. We've found this to be a worthwhile secondary check
> that frustrates some folks who prefer to get games without paying for
> them and has virtually no downside (with a rare exception) for our
> customers.

The tradeoff, though, is that if this becomes widespread, then users -
*and crackers* - will simply adopt a usage/cracking method that (a)
takes this into account, and (b) poses far more problems than the above
solution will/can solve.[1]

In a serial-based software, by far the most likely avenue for crackers
isn't some sort of elaborate "crack," or encapsulating an installed and
validated copy of the software - but the simple posting of a valid
serial number at <hacker site>. The best way to deal with this at patch
time is to incorporate that known "illegal" serial number into the
patch, and have the patch do something *very* nasty[2] if it runs on a
system that installed the game with that "illegal" serial.

Copy protection, like a locked door, only keeps the honest people out.
[4]

[1] Consider an analogy. I had a security audit from one of our parent
manufacturers, and the only thing they gigged me on was that I allowed
LAN/WAN users to pick their own password. Their security "research"
suggested[3] that I enforce their limits on password security, and
generate and assign user passwords with their "secure" program - these
20 character nonsense passwords that looked like, "Ax364#^%
X&&Zzzzz7ZUIOSD."

Can you guess what happened? Of course you can; every workstation in
the company promptly sprouted a bright yellow Post-It(tm) note with
user-id and impossible-to-remember-password proudly emblazoned on it.
Now the erstwhile hacker didn't need to trouble himself puzzling out
that Ida Mae Glutz used her cat's name as a password - he just read her
password off the paper as he logged on.

[2] I would suggest patching something *really* interesting, such as
ntoskernl.exe, but a more charitable developer might simple post a
message explaining why the patch was terminating.

[3] Read: A *fuhrerbefehl*.

[4] You can get a password generator for Veritas products. If they
can't effectively protect $10,000 worth of network backup software,
ain't nobody going to protect a $35 game.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
page revelations from secretly recorded phone
conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
hit 70 percent."
- Mickey Kaus
 

lupi

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You're kidding right? I see new updates for the Panzer campaign series every
time a patch is released.

lupi

"ERutins" <erikr@matrixgames.com> wrote in message
news:1109172868.424125.257390@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Ya, but #3 fits the pattern of behavior I've observed from them
> > better.
>
> Somehow I knew James would pick that one.
>
> Ok, to respond - Gandalf was closest to the mark. The serial number
> protection on the updates is because while (as with other companies and
> irrespective of whether we use fancier copy protection or not) games
> are cracked, for niche titles the cracking groups don't always keep up
> with the updates. We've found this to be a worthwhile secondary check
> that frustrates some folks who prefer to get games without paying for
> them and has virtually no downside (with a rare exception) for our
> customers.
>
> We specifically offer the Members Area, which allows you to register
> your game and retrieve your serial number wherever, whenever for the
> reason that we want to make it easy for you to be able to find it
> again. I realize you had your order info unavailable, but that's
> another way to find it - our online store supports lookup by order
> number or payment info if you ever lose your serial.
>
> With three different ways in place to retrieve serials, and no
> disc-required copy protection, we've had overall a very good response
> to this system. I realize instances like this will occur, but I think
> that (with the Members Area and other methods to retrieve serials) it's
> better than having to keep the disc with you or other alternatives.
>
> Regards,
>
> - Erik
>
 

lupi

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Oh geeze, so one word got transposed. I think you could get the point.

lupi


"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c85a026524bd40b98a1bb@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <saOSd.4828$SF.4474@lakeread08>, lupi@cox.net says...
>
> > That's what you get for supporting their method of business at your
expense
> > practice.
>
> Huh?
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> "The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
> the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
> page revelations from secretly recorded phone
> conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
> hit 70 percent."
> - Mickey Kaus
 
G

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Giftzwerg wrote:

> I mean "huh" in the sense, "Your argument is incomprehensible," not
in
> the sense, "Your sentence is invalid."
>
> Sorry for the confusion.

Lupi has a few bones to pick with Matrixgames - I gather that this is
mainly related to their price settings - so he bounces on them at every
opportunity - or even non-opportunities such as this. No big deal :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
G

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In article <He7Td.7617$SF.6693@lakeread08>, lupi@cox.net says...

> > > That's what you get for supporting their method of business at your
> expense
> > > practice.
> >
> > Huh?

> Oh geeze, so one word got transposed. I think you could get the point.

I mean "huh" in the sense, "Your argument is incomprehensible," not in
the sense, "Your sentence is invalid."

Sorry for the confusion.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
page revelations from secretly recorded phone
conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
hit 70 percent."
- Mickey Kaus
 
G

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"ERutins" <erikr@matrixgames.com> wrote in message
news:1109172868.424125.257390@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Ya, but #3 fits the pattern of behavior I've observed from them
> > better.
>
> Somehow I knew James would pick that one.
>

Well I do have reputation as a wise-ass to maintain. :)

To be honest though, I personally haven't had any real problem with the
serial # when applying WiTP patches. My issues with Matrix are related to
their QC and tech support policies.

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
 

lupi

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You purchased from a company that will only sell the games directly from
them and will charge more if you dare ask for an actual hardcopy. Why should
something as simple as requiring you to enter your ID key every time you
update be surprising.

lupi


"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c878f58a01d14c698a1c6@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <He7Td.7617$SF.6693@lakeread08>, lupi@cox.net says...
>
> > > > That's what you get for supporting their method of business at your
> > expense
> > > > practice.
> > >
> > > Huh?
>
> > Oh geeze, so one word got transposed. I think you could get the point.
>
> I mean "huh" in the sense, "Your argument is incomprehensible," not in
> the sense, "Your sentence is invalid."
>
> Sorry for the confusion.
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> "The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
> the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
> page revelations from secretly recorded phone
> conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
> hit 70 percent."
> - Mickey Kaus
 

lupi

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Not quite accurate, and there are also reasons why I won't by HL2 or use AOL
even if it meant no internet access. I don't prefer to utilize the sheep
syndrome many consumers acquiesce to and am here to help others :)


lupi

<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109248439.855307.241980@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Giftzwerg wrote:
>
> > I mean "huh" in the sense, "Your argument is incomprehensible," not
> in
> > the sense, "Your sentence is invalid."
> >
> > Sorry for the confusion.
>
> Lupi has a few bones to pick with Matrixgames - I gather that this is
> mainly related to their price settings - so he bounces on them at every
> opportunity - or even non-opportunities such as this. No big deal :)
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
>
 

Mike

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<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109141585.785706.307960@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Giftzwerg wrote:
>
>> Oh, and, knowing that Matrix is going to ask for my serial number
> every
>> time I patch any of their software, can you guess where I keep my
> serial
>> numbers for all my Matrix games now?
>>
>> If you picked, "In the same directory where the executable resides,"
> you
>> win a cookie.[1]
>
> Goodie - I won - I prefer if you could send it by courier - I hate
> stale cookies :)
>
>> [1] Of course, you'd think that Matrix would probably prefer that I
>> keep my serial number in a safe place - like I used to. But if they
>> were worried about this, they wouldn't have required that I have it
>> handy to install patches, right?
>
> If the devil ever needs an advocate ... :)
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
>

Job's already taken.
 
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lupi wrote:
> Not quite accurate, and there are also reasons why I won't by HL2 or
use AOL
> even if it meant no internet access. I don't prefer to utilize the
sheep
> syndrome many consumers acquiesce to and am here to help others :)

Hi,

If you want to convince others to follow your way it might be a good
idea to use arguments that aren't counter-productive.

Hitting on Matrixgames because they have serial number protection
(laughable idea to me too, but that's another point), but at the same
time "forgetting" that this is the *least* invasive copy protection
scheme compared to other game companies who often require a cd in the
drive or internet authentication is ... well ... not very convincing.

Hitting on Matrixgames because they have Direct Download only makes me
wish other companies had it too. Been waiting for 1 particular disc to
arrive in the mail since july 2004 - no kidding. I'm pretty pleased
that Battlefront is going to use SC2 as a first testcase for direct
download - which should be renamed to "direct play when you pay" imho.

Hitting on Matrixgames because they charge you $10 for burning +
packaging a disk is negating the fact that this sounds about right
cost-wise. However, it *is* a bad pr move on their part. They should
advertise games as costing $50 and give you a $10 reduction if you go
the direct download way :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
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Giftzwerg wrote:
> In article <1109315767.849963.178690@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...
>
> > Hitting on Matrixgames because they charge you $10 for burning +
> > packaging a disk is negating the fact that this sounds about right
> > cost-wise. However, it *is* a bad pr move on their part. They
should
> > advertise games as costing $50 and give you a $10 reduction if you
go
> > the direct download way :)
>
> <LoL>

You can laugh but I'm really stumped as to why it isn't presented this
way. At furniture shop X they have "free transport to your house", but
they give you a discount if you take care of transport yourself.

That's *exactly* the same setup - but sounding a lot better - as having
a lower price and asking a surplus for transport.

It's psychological : people like discounts, they hate surplusses. Your
going to sell a lot more products priced $100 with a 30% discount than
selling it straight at $70.

My advise to wargame companies would be : higher price, but give
discounts for every occasion you can think of : Returning customer or
"members" (+free membership), St-Crispin's day, because the weather is
nice, ... Short : make sure that practically everyone with 2 braincells
is entitled to a discount somehow.

> Be careful. If you publicly display too much marketing savvy, you
run
> the risk that your body will start to spontaneously sprout a few of
> those Borg implants.

Imagine : being bodily connected to the internet at all times + direct
projection of images on the retina and sound to the eardrums. You could
play games in the office then ... :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <4qsTd.7678$SF.2949@lakeread08>, lupi@cox.net says...

> You purchased from a company that will only sell the games directly from
> them and will charge more if you dare ask for an actual hardcopy. Why should
> something as simple as requiring you to enter your ID key every time you
> update be surprising.

Because the first two items make perfect logical sense, and the last
does not?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The treachery is that Doug Wead waited until after
the election [...] Another round of explosive front-
page revelations from secretly recorded phone
conversations like today's and Bush's approval will
hit 70 percent."
- Mickey Kaus