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Silent Hunter III gone gold

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Anonymous
March 3, 2005 12:54:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Hi,

Read all about it here :

http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

More about : silent hunter iii gold

Anonymous
March 3, 2005 12:54:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

OH YEAH!


"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> Hi,
>
> Read all about it here :
>
> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
March 3, 2005 12:54:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> Hi,
>
> Read all about it here :
>
> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
Related resources
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 12:54:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:


>Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
>u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
>
Hear, hear!

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 8:43:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
>> Hi,
>>
>> Read all about it here :
>>
>> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
>>
>> Greetz,
>>
>> Eddy Sterckx
>
>Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
>u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
>
"Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.

Scott Orr
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 9:43:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

JP wrote:
> Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of
the Deep
> were good sims, in their day.

Silent Service 1 - came on a self-bootable 5.25" floppy - got me hooked
in a serious way. Played it as a serious sim using realistic tactics
untill one day I showed it to a friend of mine. I explained the basics
of sub-warfare and set him of on his first cruise. First thing he does
is surface and blindly launch a torpedo at a cruiser way out of torpedo
range and steaming full speed in his direction. He continues full spead
at a collision course all the while blasting with the deck-mounted gun.

Then a detonation - the cruiser closing in at full speed came within
torpedo range and actually manages to plow straight into the torpedo -
this stops the cruiser in his tracks but my pal is still acting like
he's going to ram it but finally decides to dive and manages to dive
underneath it in what was essentially swimming pool depth water. He
resurfaces at the other end, stops all engines and sinks the cruiser
with the deck gun. He turns around and says "you and your realistic
tactics, just blast the hell out of 'em".

Never saw so much beginner's luck in my life.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:53:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com>,
sdorr@ix.netcom.com says...

> >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
> >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
> >
> "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
> been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?

Ah. SUB BATTLE. If you fail to sink KING GEORGE V with torpedoes, just
surface and take it under fire with your trusty deck-gun; pepper it with
enough shells, and down she goes...

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The Islamists have been clear all along about their plans to form
an Islamic caliphate and inhabit the entire world with burqas,
stonings, amputations, honor killings and a lack of religious and
political freedom. Whether or not to oppose such a movement should
have been a no-brainer, especially for self-proclaimed 'progressives.'
Instead, they have extended their misguided sympathies to tyrants
and terrorists."
- Cinnamon Stillwell
March 3, 2005 11:14:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Read all about it here :
> >>
> >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
> >>
> >> Greetz,
> >>
> >> Eddy Sterckx
> >
> >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
> >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
> >
> "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
> been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
> be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
> realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
> constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
> realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.
>
> Scott Orr



Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of the Deep
were good sims, in their day.
March 3, 2005 11:48:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109861022.480108.160930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> JP wrote:
> > Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of
> the Deep
> > were good sims, in their day.
>
> Silent Service 1 - came on a self-bootable 5.25" floppy - got me hooked
> in a serious way. Played it as a serious sim using realistic tactics
> untill one day I showed it to a friend of mine. I explained the basics
> of sub-warfare and set him of on his first cruise. First thing he does
> is surface and blindly launch a torpedo at a cruiser way out of torpedo
> range and steaming full speed in his direction. He continues full spead
> at a collision course all the while blasting with the deck-mounted gun.
>
> Then a detonation - the cruiser closing in at full speed came within
> torpedo range and actually manages to plow straight into the torpedo -
> this stops the cruiser in his tracks but my pal is still acting like
> he's going to ram it but finally decides to dive and manages to dive
> underneath it in what was essentially swimming pool depth water. He
> resurfaces at the other end, stops all engines and sinks the cruiser
> with the deck gun. He turns around and says "you and your realistic
> tactics, just blast the hell out of 'em".
>
> Never saw so much beginner's luck in my life.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx


Hehe, good story.







>
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 5:49:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Nigel Stutt wrote:
> Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright

> protection which means it may have problems with any computer that
has a
> CDRW drive in it. Is this true?

reg. Silent Hunter 3 using Starforce : found this on a German ng

"Spiel verwendet Kopierschutztechniken, die bei einigen Programmen oder
DVD-RW und virtuellen Laufwerken eine manuelle Anpassung erfordert."

Das ist ein Hinweis in den Silent-Hunter-III-Systemanforderungen."

Translated :

SH III system requirements says "game uses anti-copying techniques that
require manual adjustments with some programs, DVD-RW or virtual
drives"

"Manual adjustments" - What does this mean - that I'll have to disable
my DVD-RW drive in order to run this game ? That I'll have to remove
Alcohol 120% - my trusted image-container - from my system ?

No way José - after the disaster that SH 2 was this about ends the
story for me here. Dropping it of my sonar.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 6:56:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

over 100 screenshots on the Silent hunter 3 website

http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/gallery_screens.php

not ONE thru a periscope or of a workstation with useful looking gauges
or screens. One shot thru binoculars and a few angled shots of gauges.

Tons of external shots of subs or ships in the water.

Personally I would have liked to see what the game looks like from the
screens where I would be playing it.

Graham

Eddy Sterckx wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Read all about it here :
>
> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
March 3, 2005 6:56:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Graham H" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:422725B8.1060500@spam.com...
> over 100 screenshots on the Silent hunter 3 website
>
> http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/gallery_screens.php
>
> not ONE thru a periscope or of a workstation with useful looking gauges
> or screens. One shot thru binoculars and a few angled shots of gauges.
>
> Tons of external shots of subs or ships in the water.
>
> Personally I would have liked to see what the game looks like from the
> screens where I would be playing it.
>
> Graham


Not sure (haven't looked), but try here. If anyone has them, they will.
www.subsim.com
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:25:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright
protection which means it may have problems with any computer that has a
CDRW drive in it. Is this true?

Nats

"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> Hi,
>
> Read all about it here :
>
> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:48:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Scott D. Orr wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
>>u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
>>
>
> "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
> been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
> be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
> realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
> constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
> realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.

<helpless laughter!>

I *knew* this post was coming!
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 11:40:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <d07oa9$b7t$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
nstutt@nstutt.freeserve.co.uk says...
> Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright
> protection which means it may have problems with any computer that has a
> CDRW drive in it. Is this true?
>
> Nats
>
> "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Read all about it here :
> >
> > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
> >
> > Greetz,
> >
> > Eddy Sterckx

I don't know, but there will definitely be problems with a nocd then.
--
Epi

How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
and show off his body, then turn around and
call others girlie-men. Strange.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 12:21:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

JP wrote:
> "Graham H" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:422725B8.1060500@spam.com...
>
>>over 100 screenshots on the Silent hunter 3 website
>>
>>http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/gallery_screens.php
>>
>>not ONE thru a periscope or of a workstation with useful looking gauges
>>or screens. One shot thru binoculars and a few angled shots of gauges.
>>
>>Tons of external shots of subs or ships in the water.
>>
>>Personally I would have liked to see what the game looks like from the
>>screens where I would be playing it.
>>
>>Graham
>
>
>
> Not sure (haven't looked), but try here. If anyone has them, they will.
> www.subsim.com
>
>
>

Yes that did it thanks!

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_rc1/sh3_mar05_dc1.htm

Graham
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 3:35:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
>> Hi,
>>
>> Read all about it here :
>>
>> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
>>
>> Greetz,
>>
>> Eddy Sterckx
>
>Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
>u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
>

If you're patient I'm sure someone will mod in the Pacific Theatre
for SH3 (if doing so doesn't get the suits' panties in a knot
copyright-wise)...

John DiFool
March 4, 2005 3:35:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"John DiFool" <sorry@spammerscrewedme.com> wrote in message
news:f17h21hq32dv4meccdc5q1808b7mrg09ei@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Read all about it here :
> >>
> >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
> >>
> >> Greetz,
> >>
> >> Eddy Sterckx
> >
> >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
> >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
> >
>
> If you're patient I'm sure someone will mod in the Pacific Theatre
> for SH3 (if doing so doesn't get the suits' panties in a knot
> copyright-wise)...
>
> John DiFool




Good point, here's hoping.















>
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 3:55:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wCrVd.170$74.2699@eagle.america.net...
>
> "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Read all about it here :
> >
> > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
> >
> > Greetz,
> >
> > Eddy Sterckx
>
> Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
> u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
>

The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
March 4, 2005 3:55:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"gconnect" <yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com> wrote in message
news:D 09lsn$8q7$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:wCrVd.170$74.2699@eagle.america.net...
> >
> > "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Read all about it here :
> > >
> > > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
> > >
> > > Greetz,
> > >
> > > Eddy Sterckx
> >
> > Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
> > u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
> >
>
> The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter
how
> incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.



Well, considering that's how the Germans lost in the Atlantic, your point
? <g.













>
>
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 3:55:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:55:46 -0000, "gconnect"
<yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com> wrote:


>The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
>incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
>

That's why the SS had the highest percentage losses of any USN
function?

The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
going to try. But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
makes me feel dirty.

A PTO game with the tactical feeding a strategic war model, like
Microprose did all those years ago, would be a lot of fun. Try to beat
history. See if starting the tanker war in 1943 instead of 1944 makes
a difference. Etc.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 3:55:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

gconnect wrote:
> "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:wCrVd.170$74.2699@eagle.america.net...
>>
>>Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
>>u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
>>
>
> The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
> incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
>

We're talking about sims, not strategy games. Your comment might be
germane for a game like War In the Pacific, but not for the Silent
Hunter series. In these, you play a submarine commander and you can
be killed - i.e. you lose. The amount of resources available to the
belligerent nations in the actual war is irrelevant. In the game, a
well handled destroyer can still kill you whether that ship represents
one of a hundred or one of a thousand.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 3:55:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <d09lsn$8q7$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com says...

> The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
> incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.

Unfortunately for the USN submarine commander deep in enemy territory,
the fact that the USA had "100 times more resources" throughout the
Pacific was entirely irrelevant; all *he* had with *him* was a fairly
mediocre submarine and a startlingly high percentage of dud torpedoes.

In other words, it was all-too-easy for an individual sub skipper to
"lose," and rather a high percentage of them did exactly that.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
but also to remake the Middle East."
- Gerard Baker
March 4, 2005 3:55:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Steve Bartman" <sbartman@visi.com> wrote in message
news:taug219ar2pf6imjvnko7b7l5t6kha9pkl@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:55:46 -0000, "gconnect"
> <yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com> wrote:
>
>
> >The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter
how
> >incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
> >
>
> That's why the SS had the highest percentage losses of any USN
> function?
>
> The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
> But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
> shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
> and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
> assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
> going to try. But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
> don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
> makes me feel dirty.
>
> A PTO game with the tactical feeding a strategic war model, like
> Microprose did all those years ago, would be a lot of fun. Try to beat
> history. See if starting the tanker war in 1943 instead of 1944 makes
> a difference. Etc.
>
> Steve
> --
> www.thepaxamsolution.com


Exactly.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 3:55:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <taug219ar2pf6imjvnko7b7l5t6kha9pkl@4ax.com>,
sbartman@visi.com says...

> The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
> But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
> shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
> and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
> assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
> going to try.

I'm not sure how this stuff could be effectively represented in a game,
though, without abstracting it to the point where it would cease to be
an absorbing part of the action.

> But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
> don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
> makes me feel dirty.

Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
counterpart?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
but also to remake the Middle East."
- Gerard Baker
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 3:55:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:34:48 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <taug219ar2pf6imjvnko7b7l5t6kha9pkl@4ax.com>,
>sbartman@visi.com says...
>
>> The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
>> But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
>> shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
>> and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
>> assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
>> going to try.
>
>I'm not sure how this stuff could be effectively represented in a game,
>though, without abstracting it to the point where it would cease to be
>an absorbing part of the action.

By using points to assign training resources, promote crew, etc. By
modeling morale, fatigue, competence in each crewmember and letting it
affect speed and accuracy in their work. It adds some RPG elements,
but it's a sim, so I say so what? I've been awake for 60 hours on an
ASW op and it's a big factor is ship performance. Other sims--B-17
Flying Fortress for one--have done this and it works. It adds a
longer. larger POV than just the current mission or current attack.

>> But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
>> don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
>> makes me feel dirty.
>
>Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
>actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
>counterpart?

The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
prerogative. I find it distasteful. FWIW I wouldn't want to simulate
being a Japanese company commander on the Bataan Death March either
even if my only role was to follow orders.

Steve

--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 8:50:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <96ah21toigtu68t7bu538lfg4hc8k19nbi@4ax.com>,
sbartman@visi.com says...

> >> The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
> >> But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
> >> shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
> >> and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
> >> assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
> >> going to try.
> >
> >I'm not sure how this stuff could be effectively represented in a game,
> >though, without abstracting it to the point where it would cease to be
> >an absorbing part of the action.
>
> By using points to assign training resources, promote crew, etc. By
> modeling morale, fatigue, competence in each crewmember and letting it
> affect speed and accuracy in their work. It adds some RPG elements,
> but it's a sim, so I say so what? I've been awake for 60 hours on an
> ASW op and it's a big factor is ship performance. Other sims--B-17
> Flying Fortress for one--have done this and it works. It adds a
> longer. larger POV than just the current mission or current attack.

Might be fun. But the RPG aspect would need to be selectable, or risk
turning off the hard-core sub-simmers.

> >> But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
> >> don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
> >> makes me feel dirty.
> >
> >Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
> >actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
> >counterpart?
>
> The fact that he's a Nazi of course.

Your assertion is that all German submarine commanders were Nazis?

> If you look at soldiers and
> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
> prerogative. I find it distasteful. FWIW I wouldn't want to simulate
> being a Japanese company commander on the Bataan Death March either
> even if my only role was to follow orders.

<shrug>

I wouldn't play a scenario of KZ-KOMMANDANT, but I'm not sure the
conduct of any given U-boat commander was any worse than that of his
British, American, Japanese, Russian, or Italian counterparts.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
but also to remake the Middle East."
- Gerard Baker
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 9:10:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <MPG.1c924a22d8505e9f98a1f4@news-east.giganews.com>,
giftzwerg999@hotmail.com says...
dirty.
>
> Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
> actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
> counterpart?

The nazi commander has a picture of heil in his room.
--
Epi

How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
and show off his body, then turn around and
call others girlie-men. Strange.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:39:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
> prerogative.

Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?

In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces, served
many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty doesn't
mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
March 4, 2005 11:39:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Vincenzo Beretta" <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gL2Wd.4914$WC1.3759@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
> > The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
> > sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
> > prerogative.
>
> Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
>
> In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces,
served
> many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty
doesn't
> mean to agree with the ideology behind it.


LOL. The makers of Das Boot are renowned for their wanting to portray a
sympathetic view of the German soldier, sailor, etc. They also made
"Stalingrad", which is Das Boot on land.

Good movies, but they do have their (obvious) biases. Besides the fact
that bringing in *any* movie for historical
reference......................hmmmm, not smart.






>
>
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:39:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:39:08 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
<reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
>> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
>> prerogative.
>
>Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
>
>In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces, served
>many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty doesn't
>mean to agree with the ideology behind it.

I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.

Steve

--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:39:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <61gh21ptq99l6virdl3q7a2824n77rnvvl@4ax.com>,
sbartman@visi.com says...

> >In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces, served
> >many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty doesn't
> >mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
>
> I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
> killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
> I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
> other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
> it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.

Objectively speaking, American submarine skippers were as ruthless as
their German counterparts, and the US campaign of unrestricted submarine
warfare in the Pacific was brutally effective.

Moreover, as a purely practical matter, it's going to be quite
restrictive to adopt a gaming policy of "moral purity only." Quite
often, the most strategically or tactically interesting positions were
played out by folks whose hands weren't exactly clean.

And I'm curious how far one takes this attitude; would you have a
problem gaming out, say, the February 1945 Dresden raid from the British
perspective? After all, a good many Britons have made the argument that
this attack is morally unsupportable; I'd bet $1 that it's even been
compared to the aforementioned Death March by some Englishmen.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
but also to remake the Middle East."
- Gerard Baker
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:39:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:58:44 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Objectively speaking, American submarine skippers were as ruthless as
>their German counterparts,

More so in some cases. Early war German policies were to rescue
survivors when possible. The British took advantage of this "weakness"
and the Germans stopped it. There are documented cases of USN COs
machine-gunning Japanese soldiers in the water after sinkings.

Unrestricted submarine warfare was a controversial subject in the 40s
after the WWI experience. We immediately chucked strongly-worded
policies after PH. The day after in fact. We prosecuted Doenitz in
part for ordering what we had also done. Thus it is with winners and
losers.

That doesn't change my loathing for the regime.

and the US campaign of unrestricted submarine
>warfare in the Pacific was brutally effective.

Far more so that the U-boat campaign to the overall result.

>Moreover, as a purely practical matter, it's going to be quite
>restrictive to adopt a gaming policy of "moral purity only." Quite
>often, the most strategically or tactically interesting positions were
>played out by folks whose hands weren't exactly clean.

True. As elsewhere, however, I make a distinction between a sand table
exercise (on PC or not) and a sim where I must take on the persona.
But if I were Blue-Oranging a German officer as an active duty US
wargamer under orders I'd of course do it as well as I could. But when
choosing leisure activity, especially when there is so much else to
play with limited time, I choose not to sim out as a Nazi.

>And I'm curious how far one takes this attitude; would you have a
>problem gaming out, say, the February 1945 Dresden raid from the British
>perspective?

Yeah, in part because it would be a boring exercise in mass murder and
partly because it would be simply boring tactically. The Germans were
done by then. But it was IMO a war crime. Probably. It's hard not to
engage in "prensentism" in these WWII cases. I fully supported use of
the Bomb for example. Different fact set.

After all, a good many Britons have made the argument that
>this attack is morally unsupportable; I'd bet $1 that it's even been
>compared to the aforementioned Death March by some Englishmen.

I've seen it thus on-line in s.m.n. Every nation with a war-like
history has stains. We're still collecting them in Iraq and
Afghanistan.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:49:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Steve Bartman" <sbartman@visi.com> wrote in message
news:61gh21ptq99l6virdl3q7a2824n77rnvvl@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:39:08 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
> <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
>>> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
>>> prerogative.
>>
>>Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
>>
>>In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces,
>>served
>>many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty
>>doesn't
>>mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
>
> I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
> killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
> I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
> other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
> it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.
>
> Steve
>
> --
> www.thepaxamsolution.com

Steve,

Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the good
guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of hobbies.

tm
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:49:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:49:17 GMT, "Troy Mastern"
<Troy_Mastern@excite.com> wrote:


>Steve,
>
>Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
>agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
>veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the good
>guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of hobbies.

I don't resist in wargames or books. I can play a wargame as the
Germans--I enjoyed PG for hundreds of hours. That's a chess game. I an
read a history from the German POV; that's educational.

A first-person sim is something else. It's my own line in the sand. I
don't expect others to care.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:49:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <hqsh21l0kpenp8s6e7mfnrd3qlgocljnvi@4ax.com>,
sbartman@visi.com says...

> >Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
> >agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
> >veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the good
> >guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of hobbies.
>
> I don't resist in wargames or books. I can play a wargame as the
> Germans--I enjoyed PG for hundreds of hours. That's a chess game. I an
> read a history from the German POV; that's educational.
>
> A first-person sim is something else. It's my own line in the sand. I
> don't expect others to care.

Huh?

In PANZER GENERAL, the player took the role of a German general charged
with fighting a Kampfgruppe through a series of operations. In SH3, the
player takes the role of a German submarine commander charged with
attacking Allied shipping with his boat.

How is one any more "first-person" than the other?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
but also to remake the Middle East."
- Gerard Baker
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:49:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:11:51 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In PANZER GENERAL, the player took the role of a German general charged
>with fighting a Kampfgruppe through a series of operations. In SH3, the
>player takes the role of a German submarine commander charged with
>attacking Allied shipping with his boat.
>
>How is one any more "first-person" than the other?

Hex-based symbols versus realistic 3-d, first-person scenes.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 12:54:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

.....yes and the Japanese tortured POWS, the Americans are still torturing
Iraqi POWs, and the British army ridiculed its Iraqi POWs. I dont agree with
what the Germans did during the Second World War of course, but they arent
any worse than anyone else when it really comes down to it. So no I wont
worry about playing the Germans in a game. In fact I much prefer playing the
Germans than the Americans mainly because I am British and I can relate more
to that war than the Pacific one.
Nats

"Troy Mastern" <Troy_Mastern@excite.com> wrote in message
news:hR3Wd.1290$J14.967@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>
> "Steve Bartman" <sbartman@visi.com> wrote in message
> news:61gh21ptq99l6virdl3q7a2824n77rnvvl@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:39:08 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
>> <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
>>>> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
>>>> prerogative.
>>>
>>>Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
>>>
>>>In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces,
>>>served
>>>many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty
>>>doesn't
>>>mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
>>
>> I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
>> killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
>> I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
>> other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
>> it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> --
>> www.thepaxamsolution.com
>
> Steve,
>
> Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
> agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
> veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the
> good guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of
> hobbies.
>
> tm
>
>
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 12:54:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <d0alek$1ts$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
nstutt@nstutt.freeserve.co.uk says...

> ....yes and the Japanese tortured POWS, the Americans are still torturing
> Iraqi POWs, and the British army ridiculed its Iraqi POWs.

And you can't tell the difference, can you.

Interesting, though, that you make a distinction between US "torture"
and British "ridicule." On what exactly do you base that? It seems to
me that anyone paying attention would have to agree that what the
Americans did at Abu Ghraib was much, much closer to the "ridicule" you
credit the British with inflicting than the "torture" you tar the
Japanese with.

> I dont agree with
> what the Germans did during the Second World War of course, but they arent
> any worse than anyone else when it really comes down to it.

Extermination camps do seem rather worse than something, say, Canada got
up to. But recognizing this obvious fact would require a sane, unbroken
view of reality and morality.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
but also to remake the Middle East."
- Gerard Baker
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 12:54:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:54:33 -0000, "Nats"
<nstutt@nstutt.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>....yes and the Japanese tortured POWS, the Americans are still torturing
>Iraqi POWs, and the British army ridiculed its Iraqi POWs. I dont agree with
>what the Germans did during the Second World War of course, but they arent
>any worse than anyone else when it really comes down to it.

Sure, a regime built around continental genocide is no different than
the US or UK. Right.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 8:14:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Good movies, but they do have their (obvious) biases.

The scene were Jurgen Prochnow turns the boat away from the drowing enemy
sailors doesn't seem expecially "German biased"

> Besides the fact
> that bringing in *any* movie for historical
> reference......................hmmmm, not smart.

So read the book by L.G. Buchheim, who served on real U-Boats, or any other
historical book about German *sailors* (or soldiers, or flyers, or
officers) - i.e. common guys who had to do their job without the luxury to
be able to patronize with the help of 20/20 insight.
March 5, 2005 8:14:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Vincenzo Beretta" <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ERkWd.6275$WC1.1810@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
> > Good movies, but they do have their (obvious) biases.
>
> The scene were Jurgen Prochnow turns the boat away from the drowing enemy
> sailors doesn't seem expecially "German biased"


Um, once scene in a multi-hour movie, is what you base this on ? And to
refresh you memory on that scene, it wasn't like he laughed as he did
it............remember ?


>
> > Besides the fact
> > that bringing in *any* movie for historical
> > reference......................hmmmm, not smart.
>
> So read the book by L.G. Buchheim, who served on real U-Boats, or any
other
> historical book about German *sailors* (or soldiers, or flyers, or
> officers) - i.e. common guys who had to do their job without the luxury to
> be able to patronize with the help of 20/20 insight.


Your point here being ?
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 8:18:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Hex-based symbols versus realistic 3-d, first-person scenes.

Actually PG is a 3D game where you are a General looking down a 2D map :o ))
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 11:26:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:02:43 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <spuh21tu37vcf4suhu37gftuj3ajfrg45f@4ax.com>,
>sbartman@visi.com says...
>
>> >Might be fun. But the RPG aspect would need to be selectable, or risk
>> >turning off the hard-core sub-simmers.
>>
>> My contention is that, without some of this, there never has been a
>> true sub sim. Attack trainers, not sims. Submarine ops are all about
>> the crew working as a unit, far ore than other naval platforms (except
>> perhaps PT boats, minesweepers, and other small craft.)
>
>I think you might be manifesting more than a little pride-of-service
>here, though. It strikes me that someone who, for example, made his
>naval way working on the flight deck of a USN aircraft carrier might
>argue that flight ops on a CVN were the premier example of teamwork in
>naval applications.

Flight decks are truly scary places, put that's one division, not the
whole vessel. The flight deck can work great and M-div can be
hopeless. A carrier is large enough that deficiencies can smooth out.
Sub crews, there's no place to hide.

In WWII subs were the only afloat community with deep enlisted
platform qualification; skimmers didn't start until the 1970s. And
WWII combat losses and new construction schedules meant that about 1/3
of the crew got pulled and replaced with nuggets after every patrol
from mid-war on. Qualification was a never-ending struggle.

That's not to say he's right, just to point out
>that all sorts of elite units (submariners, rangers, marines, pilots,
>airborne, etc) point to their intensive training and overall success as
>exemplary of general excellence.

True. I think more RPG elements in some of those would also make for
better sims. Flight sims, for example, usually have unlimited ordnance
of every type available, and no airframes are ever cannibalized for
parts. Each is pristine at take-off. Not realistic even in peacetime.
"B-17 Flying Fortress" was one of the only sims I know of to track
collected damage and make the player choose between flying damaged or
going short-handed. Crew got wounded and killed and had to be
replaced. Each man had individual stats.

>I'm not saying this would be a bad idea, but I'm curious about how a
>designer would go about implementing the difference between a "great"
>sub skipper and a "mediocre" sub skipper in terms of actual applications
>of game mechanics.

Well, the players themselves make for individual greatness, coupled
with realism settings. Results could produce point of various flavors,
some representing training resources, some morale improvers, some
perhaps "political" points with COMSUBPAC that got better refit
response, a better choice of wardroom, etc. That stuff did and does
happen. Successful skippers get what they want.

At sea, I just want to force the player to certain decisions that
complicate planning. Fuel/time/speed. Broken gear, some fixable if
patrol time is sacrificed (remaining submerged to work rather than
hunting), some not fixable and the CO has to make a call to continue
broken. I'd like the player to have to make at least a pro forma
watchbill and BS bill. Not every officer and CPO was as good as any
other. It was up to the CO and XO to decide who to put on the dive,
who to make Engineer, etc. And look-outs, can't forget lookouts.

I'm not looking for a spreadsheet game necessarily, although I
personally wouldn't mind. But an expansion of what 688I did with the
pierside logistics load-out screen would be a start.

>In actual game terms, suppose you were going to take the path of a
>"great" sub commander heading out from Pearl in 1941, and I was going to
>be merely a "mediocre" submariner. What actual game-decisions would you
>be making that I would not be making?

Do your best with what you get randomly. Bank some points. Spend them
wisely in port and on the next patrol. Make it impossible for anyone
to build a "perfect" crew. The sports management sims have some good
techniques for controlling resources. They might be worth looking at.
Build a crew to match your playing style. Richard O'Kane was
intellectual, a thinking hunter. Mush Morton was more intuitive, more
emotional. Let the crew variables be detailed enough that the player
knows how each man is best motivated and led, what his inherent
weakness are and which ones can be improved with hard work (but hard
work that produces fatigue.) Add in combat fatigue and morale changes
over the course of the patrol. See what happens.

At the risk of boring you and the ng, and repeating myself, I went to
archives and found a part of a long e-mail exchange I had in the
summer of 1998 with a designer considering doing a WWII sub sim. I've
scrubbed identities, but I wanted to post this to show how long I've
been dreaming of a game like this. In 1998 the hardware wasn't up to
the task. Now it is.

***********
"Okay. Up front, I'd like to see a "proper" WWII, US/Pacific
sim/rpg/strat. hybrid. I think modern sub warfare (which is what I
did) is too abstract and, well, boring if done "properly." Janes' 688i
was a magnificent effort (flawed but a great try) but I think they
found out how much gamers need "magic screens" to visualize the data.
Also, in today's world, there aren't enough credible ASW threats.
Modern SSNs, if unleashed in WWII manner, would
tear the world's merchant traffic to bits in weeks. There is no
surface navy that could stand up to a US SSN campaign. Period. So
you're left with SEAL insertions, Persian Gulf minefields, etc. which
again doesn't delight gamers. WWII was a huge, sprawling mess, with
the US rocked back in the early years, but coming on, learning,
getting better gear, and developing great skippers as the war went on.
It was the Silent Service's finest hour.

Modern sub combat is not visual. There are no magic radar screens.
It's done at very long ranges and is more a war between competing
sonar processors. WWII OTOH was up close, visual, and had much more
evenly matched platforms. That the Japanese were horrible at
coordinated ASW is a pity from a designer's standpoint, but the
logistics challenges (distance), the sea lanes between islands, the
economic issues involved in stopping trade, plus the US missteps in
manning, torpedoes, command politics, etc. make this a
fascinating period IMO. The Atlantic war was "corporate"--big convoys,
huge ASW committment, German all-out effort. The Pacific effort was
one-on-one with the good skippers and boats outclassing the mediocre
by several orders of magnitude.

The issue for a game is playability. In SH we saw one attempt to
address this--the thousands of targets motoring around. Made for a
game, but slaughtered history. On the flip side, if you make targets
as infrequent as historical (many patrols ended with none) you have
bored gamers. This is why I think at least half the game should be
INSIDE the boat. A game within a game if you will. The CO's job was a
lot more than attacking targets. He had to mold a fighting machine
that included a very human crew, and support all the mechanical and
logistic issues inherent in his platform. That's the RPG part I
envision. Is the player a Mush Morton? Or one of the dozens of abject
failures who are unremembred today? Same platform, same op areas, but
very different results. These are human issues, maybe difficult to
model, but if you want a "real" sub sim you have to go inside the boat
as well as outside with the targets. A crew that "grows" with
experience, in many measurable ways (a point allocation system
perhaps) would be fascinating, and an approach never done before in
games. Sure to attract attention. I see difficulty levels in your POV
persona's (the CO) starting position. Personality traits (logic,
emotional control, fear quotient, empathy, etc.) that you must
allocate start points to, with it being impossible to be great
in all (no one is.) Then your CO "grows" as his crew does, as he
trains them, as they survive. But always new replacements are sent in,
so the job is never static. Add other dimensions in the wardroom, COB,
leading chiefs. A CRPG "party" if you will. Maybe your COB is a very
poor performer, and acts to negate a lot of what you, the CO/player,
is accomplishing. How to fix that? Do you get him transferred and use
"political" points with the squadron CO? Or do you try to mold him
into a better leader through consuming some of your "effort" points
(lifespan/time) on board? These are real questions any naval leader
faces. That nothing like them has ever been addressed in games is a
factor of game designers not having served in the platform IMO. No
other vessel type has the in-you-face leadership challenges
of a submarine. It's like a family, and it can click, or it can be
disfunctional. The CO is the glue, and that's a great launching pad
for a game design.

Then, when he's not busy, the CO sinks stuff. <g>

I'd also like to see a strategic element to the game. A la Red Storn
Rising all those years ago, your boat acting as anolog for the entire
fleet effort, speeding up or slowing down the war's progress. To that
end I'd like a way at the strategic level to test historical scenarios
ie What would have been the effect of a strategy of tanker
interdiction taken in early 1943 vice mid-1944 as was the case? Would
it have sped up the economic collapse of Japan? Would it have
adversely affected Allied beach landings if sub assets
had not targeted island resupply since they were after tankers? Those
sorts of things. Again, hard to model, but neat."

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
Anonymous
March 6, 2005 4:10:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright
> protection which means it may have problems with any computer that has a
> CDRW drive in it. Is this true?

I dont have anything else than CDRW or DVD burners in my two pcs, and
I've never had any trouble with any game using Starforce as
copyprotecting, so I don't expect any trouble with SH3 either. I have
several (original) Starforce games installed right now as well, some
with nocd cracks, no troubles at all with anything.

IMHO, the whining about Starforce is mostly just overblown hype by small
minority.

jok
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 5:18:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:14:14 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> Read all about it here :
>> >>
>> >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
>> >>
>> >> Greetz,
>> >>
>> >> Eddy Sterckx
>> >
>> >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
>> >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
>> >
>> "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
>> been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
>> be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
>> realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
>> constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
>> realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.
>
>
> Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of the Deep
>were good sims, in their day.
>
They each had their good points, but no one's really made an honest
effort to do realistic sighting: do you know of any sub sim where you
could close to anywhere near a realistic range on the surface (like
500 yards, as often happened in real life) without being spotted?
Actually, I think Sub Battle and Silent Service let you do that--but
you could see the enemy for miles away at night!

Scott Orr
March 7, 2005 11:00:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ruvn21lb0e49m9acn2m3keni07kbelt51a@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:14:14 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >news:1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> Read all about it here :
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
> >> >>
> >> >> Greetz,
> >> >>
> >> >> Eddy Sterckx
> >> >
> >> >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
> >> >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
> >> >
> >> "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
> >> been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
> >> be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
> >> realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
> >> constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
> >> realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of the
Deep
> >were good sims, in their day.
> >
> They each had their good points, but no one's really made an honest
> effort to do realistic sighting: do you know of any sub sim where you
> could close to anywhere near a realistic range on the surface (like
> 500 yards, as often happened in real life) without being spotted?
> Actually, I think Sub Battle and Silent Service let you do that--but
> you could see the enemy for miles away at night!
>
> Scott Orr



Very, very true; the biggest peeve I have with sub sims, especially
u-boat ones. Attacking on the surface at night was their bread and butter,
but as you say, in most sims........viola, night vision for the convoy
lookouts.
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 2:27:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> I don't resist in wargames or books. I can play a wargame as the
> Germans--I enjoyed PG for hundreds of hours. That's a chess game.

Still you could end up boming your hometown in games like PG or
sending your own unit on a suicide mission in a WW3 game.

Christian Seitz
March 14, 2005 6:04:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109861022.480108.160930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> with the deck gun. He turns around and says "you and your realistic
> tactics, just blast the hell out of 'em".

I see some good field commander potential here :) 
!