Silent Hunter III gone gold

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Hi,

Read all about it here :

http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
48 answers Last reply
More about silent hunter gold
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    OH YEAH!


    "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > Hi,
    >
    > Read all about it here :
    >
    > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    >
    > Greetz,
    >
    > Eddy Sterckx
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > Hi,
    >
    > Read all about it here :
    >
    > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    >
    > Greetz,
    >
    > Eddy Sterckx

    Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:


    >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    >
    Hear, hear!

    Steve
    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >
    >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Read all about it here :
    >>
    >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    >>
    >> Greetz,
    >>
    >> Eddy Sterckx
    >
    >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    >
    "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
    been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
    be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
    realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
    constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
    realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.

    Scott Orr
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    JP wrote:
    > Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of
    the Deep
    > were good sims, in their day.

    Silent Service 1 - came on a self-bootable 5.25" floppy - got me hooked
    in a serious way. Played it as a serious sim using realistic tactics
    untill one day I showed it to a friend of mine. I explained the basics
    of sub-warfare and set him of on his first cruise. First thing he does
    is surface and blindly launch a torpedo at a cruiser way out of torpedo
    range and steaming full speed in his direction. He continues full spead
    at a collision course all the while blasting with the deck-mounted gun.

    Then a detonation - the cruiser closing in at full speed came within
    torpedo range and actually manages to plow straight into the torpedo -
    this stops the cruiser in his tracks but my pal is still acting like
    he's going to ram it but finally decides to dive and manages to dive
    underneath it in what was essentially swimming pool depth water. He
    resurfaces at the other end, stops all engines and sinks the cruiser
    with the deck gun. He turns around and says "you and your realistic
    tactics, just blast the hell out of 'em".

    Never saw so much beginner's luck in my life.

    Greetz,

    Eddy Sterckx
  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com>,
    sdorr@ix.netcom.com says...

    > >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    > >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    > >
    > "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
    > been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?

    Ah. SUB BATTLE. If you fail to sink KING GEORGE V with torpedoes, just
    surface and take it under fire with your trusty deck-gun; pepper it with
    enough shells, and down she goes...

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "The Islamists have been clear all along about their plans to form
    an Islamic caliphate and inhabit the entire world with burqas,
    stonings, amputations, honor killings and a lack of religious and
    political freedom. Whether or not to oppose such a movement should
    have been a no-brainer, especially for self-proclaimed 'progressives.'
    Instead, they have extended their misguided sympathies to tyrants
    and terrorists."
    - Cinnamon Stillwell
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
    news:1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com...
    > On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > >> Hi,
    > >>
    > >> Read all about it here :
    > >>
    > >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    > >>
    > >> Greetz,
    > >>
    > >> Eddy Sterckx
    > >
    > >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    > >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    > >
    > "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
    > been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
    > be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
    > realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
    > constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
    > realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.
    >
    > Scott Orr


    Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of the Deep
    were good sims, in their day.
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1109861022.480108.160930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > JP wrote:
    > > Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of
    > the Deep
    > > were good sims, in their day.
    >
    > Silent Service 1 - came on a self-bootable 5.25" floppy - got me hooked
    > in a serious way. Played it as a serious sim using realistic tactics
    > untill one day I showed it to a friend of mine. I explained the basics
    > of sub-warfare and set him of on his first cruise. First thing he does
    > is surface and blindly launch a torpedo at a cruiser way out of torpedo
    > range and steaming full speed in his direction. He continues full spead
    > at a collision course all the while blasting with the deck-mounted gun.
    >
    > Then a detonation - the cruiser closing in at full speed came within
    > torpedo range and actually manages to plow straight into the torpedo -
    > this stops the cruiser in his tracks but my pal is still acting like
    > he's going to ram it but finally decides to dive and manages to dive
    > underneath it in what was essentially swimming pool depth water. He
    > resurfaces at the other end, stops all engines and sinks the cruiser
    > with the deck gun. He turns around and says "you and your realistic
    > tactics, just blast the hell out of 'em".
    >
    > Never saw so much beginner's luck in my life.
    >
    > Greetz,
    >
    > Eddy Sterckx


    Hehe, good story.


    >
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    Nigel Stutt wrote:
    > Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright

    > protection which means it may have problems with any computer that
    has a
    > CDRW drive in it. Is this true?

    reg. Silent Hunter 3 using Starforce : found this on a German ng

    "Spiel verwendet Kopierschutztechniken, die bei einigen Programmen oder
    DVD-RW und virtuellen Laufwerken eine manuelle Anpassung erfordert."

    Das ist ein Hinweis in den Silent-Hunter-III-Systemanforderungen."

    Translated :

    SH III system requirements says "game uses anti-copying techniques that
    require manual adjustments with some programs, DVD-RW or virtual
    drives"

    "Manual adjustments" - What does this mean - that I'll have to disable
    my DVD-RW drive in order to run this game ? That I'll have to remove
    Alcohol 120% - my trusted image-container - from my system ?

    No way José - after the disaster that SH 2 was this about ends the
    story for me here. Dropping it of my sonar.

    Greetz,

    Eddy Sterckx
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    over 100 screenshots on the Silent hunter 3 website

    http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/gallery_screens.php

    not ONE thru a periscope or of a workstation with useful looking gauges
    or screens. One shot thru binoculars and a few angled shots of gauges.

    Tons of external shots of subs or ships in the water.

    Personally I would have liked to see what the game looks like from the
    screens where I would be playing it.

    Graham

    Eddy Sterckx wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > Read all about it here :
    >
    > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    >
    > Greetz,
    >
    > Eddy Sterckx
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Graham H" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message
    news:422725B8.1060500@spam.com...
    > over 100 screenshots on the Silent hunter 3 website
    >
    > http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/gallery_screens.php
    >
    > not ONE thru a periscope or of a workstation with useful looking gauges
    > or screens. One shot thru binoculars and a few angled shots of gauges.
    >
    > Tons of external shots of subs or ships in the water.
    >
    > Personally I would have liked to see what the game looks like from the
    > screens where I would be playing it.
    >
    > Graham


    Not sure (haven't looked), but try here. If anyone has them, they will.
    www.subsim.com
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright
    protection which means it may have problems with any computer that has a
    CDRW drive in it. Is this true?

    Nats

    "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > Hi,
    >
    > Read all about it here :
    >
    > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    >
    > Greetz,
    >
    > Eddy Sterckx
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    Scott D. Orr wrote:
    > On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    >>u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    >>
    >
    > "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
    > been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
    > be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
    > realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
    > constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
    > realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.

    <helpless laughter!>

    I *knew* this post was coming!
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <d07oa9$b7t$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
    nstutt@nstutt.freeserve.co.uk says...
    > Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright
    > protection which means it may have problems with any computer that has a
    > CDRW drive in it. Is this true?
    >
    > Nats
    >
    > "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > Read all about it here :
    > >
    > > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    > >
    > > Greetz,
    > >
    > > Eddy Sterckx

    I don't know, but there will definitely be problems with a nocd then.
    --
    Epi

    How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
    and show off his body, then turn around and
    call others girlie-men. Strange.
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    JP wrote:
    > "Graham H" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message
    > news:422725B8.1060500@spam.com...
    >
    >>over 100 screenshots on the Silent hunter 3 website
    >>
    >>http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/gallery_screens.php
    >>
    >>not ONE thru a periscope or of a workstation with useful looking gauges
    >>or screens. One shot thru binoculars and a few angled shots of gauges.
    >>
    >>Tons of external shots of subs or ships in the water.
    >>
    >>Personally I would have liked to see what the game looks like from the
    >>screens where I would be playing it.
    >>
    >>Graham
    >
    >
    >
    > Not sure (haven't looked), but try here. If anyone has them, they will.
    > www.subsim.com
    >
    >
    >

    Yes that did it thanks!

    http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_rc1/sh3_mar05_dc1.htm

    Graham
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >
    >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Read all about it here :
    >>
    >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    >>
    >> Greetz,
    >>
    >> Eddy Sterckx
    >
    >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    >

    If you're patient I'm sure someone will mod in the Pacific Theatre
    for SH3 (if doing so doesn't get the suits' panties in a knot
    copyright-wise)...

    John DiFool
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "John DiFool" <sorry@spammerscrewedme.com> wrote in message
    news:f17h21hq32dv4meccdc5q1808b7mrg09ei@4ax.com...
    > On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > >> Hi,
    > >>
    > >> Read all about it here :
    > >>
    > >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    > >>
    > >> Greetz,
    > >>
    > >> Eddy Sterckx
    > >
    > >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    > >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    > >
    >
    > If you're patient I'm sure someone will mod in the Pacific Theatre
    > for SH3 (if doing so doesn't get the suits' panties in a knot
    > copyright-wise)...
    >
    > John DiFool


    Good point, here's hoping.


    >
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:wCrVd.170$74.2699@eagle.america.net...
    >
    > "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > Read all about it here :
    > >
    > > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    > >
    > > Greetz,
    > >
    > > Eddy Sterckx
    >
    > Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    > u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    >

    The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
    incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "gconnect" <yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com> wrote in message
    news:d09lsn$8q7$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
    >
    > "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:wCrVd.170$74.2699@eagle.america.net...
    > >
    > > "Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > > news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > > > Hi,
    > > >
    > > > Read all about it here :
    > > >
    > > > http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    > > >
    > > > Greetz,
    > > >
    > > > Eddy Sterckx
    > >
    > > Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    > > u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    > >
    >
    > The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter
    how
    > incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.


    Well, considering that's how the Germans lost in the Atlantic, your point
    ? <g.


    >
    >
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:55:46 -0000, "gconnect"
    <yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com> wrote:


    >The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
    >incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
    >

    That's why the SS had the highest percentage losses of any USN
    function?

    The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
    But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
    shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
    and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
    assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
    going to try. But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
    don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
    makes me feel dirty.

    A PTO game with the tactical feeding a strategic war model, like
    Microprose did all those years ago, would be a lot of fun. Try to beat
    history. See if starting the tanker war in 1943 instead of 1944 makes
    a difference. Etc.

    Steve
    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    gconnect wrote:
    > "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:wCrVd.170$74.2699@eagle.america.net...
    >>
    >>Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    >>u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    >>
    >
    > The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
    > incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
    >

    We're talking about sims, not strategy games. Your comment might be
    germane for a game like War In the Pacific, but not for the Silent
    Hunter series. In these, you play a submarine commander and you can
    be killed - i.e. you lose. The amount of resources available to the
    belligerent nations in the actual war is irrelevant. In the game, a
    well handled destroyer can still kill you whether that ship represents
    one of a hundred or one of a thousand.
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <d09lsn$8q7$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
    yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com says...

    > The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter how
    > incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.

    Unfortunately for the USN submarine commander deep in enemy territory,
    the fact that the USA had "100 times more resources" throughout the
    Pacific was entirely irrelevant; all *he* had with *him* was a fairly
    mediocre submarine and a startlingly high percentage of dud torpedoes.

    In other words, it was all-too-easy for an individual sub skipper to
    "lose," and rather a high percentage of them did exactly that.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
    British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
    of this blighted region has already shifted.

    Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
    America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
    Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
    but also to remake the Middle East."
    - Gerard Baker
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Steve Bartman" <sbartman@visi.com> wrote in message
    news:taug219ar2pf6imjvnko7b7l5t6kha9pkl@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:55:46 -0000, "gconnect"
    > <yonderconnecst@bluyonfddercon.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > >The pacific is a pretty boring lopsided affair, you can't lose no matter
    how
    > >incompetent when you have 100 times more resources than the Japs.
    > >
    >
    > That's why the SS had the highest percentage losses of any USN
    > function?
    >
    > The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
    > But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
    > shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
    > and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
    > assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
    > going to try. But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
    > don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
    > makes me feel dirty.
    >
    > A PTO game with the tactical feeding a strategic war model, like
    > Microprose did all those years ago, would be a lot of fun. Try to beat
    > history. See if starting the tanker war in 1943 instead of 1944 makes
    > a difference. Etc.
    >
    > Steve
    > --
    > www.thepaxamsolution.com


    Exactly.
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <taug219ar2pf6imjvnko7b7l5t6kha9pkl@4ax.com>,
    sbartman@visi.com says...

    > The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
    > But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
    > shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
    > and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
    > assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
    > going to try.

    I'm not sure how this stuff could be effectively represented in a game,
    though, without abstracting it to the point where it would cease to be
    an absorbing part of the action.

    > But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
    > don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
    > makes me feel dirty.

    Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
    actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
    counterpart?

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
    British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
    of this blighted region has already shifted.

    Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
    America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
    Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
    but also to remake the Middle East."
    - Gerard Baker
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:34:48 -0500, Giftzwerg
    <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >In article <taug219ar2pf6imjvnko7b7l5t6kha9pkl@4ax.com>,
    >sbartman@visi.com says...
    >
    >> The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
    >> But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
    >> shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
    >> and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
    >> assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
    >> going to try.
    >
    >I'm not sure how this stuff could be effectively represented in a game,
    >though, without abstracting it to the point where it would cease to be
    >an absorbing part of the action.

    By using points to assign training resources, promote crew, etc. By
    modeling morale, fatigue, competence in each crewmember and letting it
    affect speed and accuracy in their work. It adds some RPG elements,
    but it's a sim, so I say so what? I've been awake for 60 hours on an
    ASW op and it's a big factor is ship performance. Other sims--B-17
    Flying Fortress for one--have done this and it works. It adds a
    longer. larger POV than just the current mission or current attack.

    >> But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
    >> don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
    >> makes me feel dirty.
    >
    >Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
    >actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
    >counterpart?

    The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
    sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
    prerogative. I find it distasteful. FWIW I wouldn't want to simulate
    being a Japanese company commander on the Bataan Death March either
    even if my only role was to follow orders.

    Steve

    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <96ah21toigtu68t7bu538lfg4hc8k19nbi@4ax.com>,
    sbartman@visi.com says...

    > >> The Pacific theater can be done well and has been done fairly well.
    > >> But I've served in submarines and the interesting thing is not (only)
    > >> shooting torpedo after torpedo. It's managing the boat. It's lining up
    > >> and training the crew. It's logistic/distance/hunting risk
    > >> assessments. All the stuff that's never been well modeled, and SH3 is
    > >> going to try.
    > >
    > >I'm not sure how this stuff could be effectively represented in a game,
    > >though, without abstracting it to the point where it would cease to be
    > >an absorbing part of the action.
    >
    > By using points to assign training resources, promote crew, etc. By
    > modeling morale, fatigue, competence in each crewmember and letting it
    > affect speed and accuracy in their work. It adds some RPG elements,
    > but it's a sim, so I say so what? I've been awake for 60 hours on an
    > ASW op and it's a big factor is ship performance. Other sims--B-17
    > Flying Fortress for one--have done this and it works. It adds a
    > longer. larger POV than just the current mission or current attack.

    Might be fun. But the RPG aspect would need to be selectable, or risk
    turning off the hard-core sub-simmers.

    > >> But it's in the wrong theater. Given the choice I just
    > >> don't want to take on a Nazi CO's persona in a first-person game. It
    > >> makes me feel dirty.
    > >
    > >Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
    > >actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
    > >counterpart?
    >
    > The fact that he's a Nazi of course.

    Your assertion is that all German submarine commanders were Nazis?

    > If you look at soldiers and
    > sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
    > prerogative. I find it distasteful. FWIW I wouldn't want to simulate
    > being a Japanese company commander on the Bataan Death March either
    > even if my only role was to follow orders.

    <shrug>

    I wouldn't play a scenario of KZ-KOMMANDANT, but I'm not sure the
    conduct of any given U-boat commander was any worse than that of his
    British, American, Japanese, Russian, or Italian counterparts.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
    British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
    of this blighted region has already shifted.

    Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
    America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
    Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
    but also to remake the Middle East."
    - Gerard Baker
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <MPG.1c924a22d8505e9f98a1f4@news-east.giganews.com>,
    giftzwerg999@hotmail.com says...
    dirty.
    >
    > Hmmmm. What - specifically - is the crucial difference between the
    > actual, practical behavior of a "Nazi" submarine commander and his USN
    > counterpart?

    The nazi commander has a picture of heil in his room.
    --
    Epi

    How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
    and show off his body, then turn around and
    call others girlie-men. Strange.
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
    > sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
    > prerogative.

    Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?

    In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces, served
    many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty doesn't
    mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Vincenzo Beretta" <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:gL2Wd.4914$WC1.3759@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
    > > The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
    > > sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
    > > prerogative.
    >
    > Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
    >
    > In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces,
    served
    > many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty
    doesn't
    > mean to agree with the ideology behind it.


    LOL. The makers of Das Boot are renowned for their wanting to portray a
    sympathetic view of the German soldier, sailor, etc. They also made
    "Stalingrad", which is Das Boot on land.

    Good movies, but they do have their (obvious) biases. Besides the fact
    that bringing in *any* movie for historical
    reference......................hmmmm, not smart.


    >
    >
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:39:08 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
    <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >> The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
    >> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
    >> prerogative.
    >
    >Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
    >
    >In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces, served
    >many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty doesn't
    >mean to agree with the ideology behind it.

    I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
    killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
    I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
    other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
    it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.

    Steve

    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <61gh21ptq99l6virdl3q7a2824n77rnvvl@4ax.com>,
    sbartman@visi.com says...

    > >In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces, served
    > >many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty doesn't
    > >mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
    >
    > I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
    > killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
    > I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
    > other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
    > it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.

    Objectively speaking, American submarine skippers were as ruthless as
    their German counterparts, and the US campaign of unrestricted submarine
    warfare in the Pacific was brutally effective.

    Moreover, as a purely practical matter, it's going to be quite
    restrictive to adopt a gaming policy of "moral purity only." Quite
    often, the most strategically or tactically interesting positions were
    played out by folks whose hands weren't exactly clean.

    And I'm curious how far one takes this attitude; would you have a
    problem gaming out, say, the February 1945 Dresden raid from the British
    perspective? After all, a good many Britons have made the argument that
    this attack is morally unsupportable; I'd bet $1 that it's even been
    compared to the aforementioned Death March by some Englishmen.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
    British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
    of this blighted region has already shifted.

    Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
    America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
    Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
    but also to remake the Middle East."
    - Gerard Baker
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:58:44 -0500, Giftzwerg
    <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >Objectively speaking, American submarine skippers were as ruthless as
    >their German counterparts,

    More so in some cases. Early war German policies were to rescue
    survivors when possible. The British took advantage of this "weakness"
    and the Germans stopped it. There are documented cases of USN COs
    machine-gunning Japanese soldiers in the water after sinkings.

    Unrestricted submarine warfare was a controversial subject in the 40s
    after the WWI experience. We immediately chucked strongly-worded
    policies after PH. The day after in fact. We prosecuted Doenitz in
    part for ordering what we had also done. Thus it is with winners and
    losers.

    That doesn't change my loathing for the regime.

    and the US campaign of unrestricted submarine
    >warfare in the Pacific was brutally effective.

    Far more so that the U-boat campaign to the overall result.

    >Moreover, as a purely practical matter, it's going to be quite
    >restrictive to adopt a gaming policy of "moral purity only." Quite
    >often, the most strategically or tactically interesting positions were
    >played out by folks whose hands weren't exactly clean.

    True. As elsewhere, however, I make a distinction between a sand table
    exercise (on PC or not) and a sim where I must take on the persona.
    But if I were Blue-Oranging a German officer as an active duty US
    wargamer under orders I'd of course do it as well as I could. But when
    choosing leisure activity, especially when there is so much else to
    play with limited time, I choose not to sim out as a Nazi.

    >And I'm curious how far one takes this attitude; would you have a
    >problem gaming out, say, the February 1945 Dresden raid from the British
    >perspective?

    Yeah, in part because it would be a boring exercise in mass murder and
    partly because it would be simply boring tactically. The Germans were
    done by then. But it was IMO a war crime. Probably. It's hard not to
    engage in "prensentism" in these WWII cases. I fully supported use of
    the Bomb for example. Different fact set.

    After all, a good many Britons have made the argument that
    >this attack is morally unsupportable; I'd bet $1 that it's even been
    >compared to the aforementioned Death March by some Englishmen.

    I've seen it thus on-line in s.m.n. Every nation with a war-like
    history has stains. We're still collecting them in Iraq and
    Afghanistan.

    Steve
    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Steve Bartman" <sbartman@visi.com> wrote in message
    news:61gh21ptq99l6virdl3q7a2824n77rnvvl@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:39:08 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
    > <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>> The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
    >>> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
    >>> prerogative.
    >>
    >>Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
    >>
    >>In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces,
    >>served
    >>many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty
    >>doesn't
    >>mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
    >
    > I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
    > killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
    > I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
    > other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
    > it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.
    >
    > Steve
    >
    > --
    > www.thepaxamsolution.com

    Steve,

    Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
    agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
    veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the good
    guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of hobbies.

    tm
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:49:17 GMT, "Troy Mastern"
    <Troy_Mastern@excite.com> wrote:


    >Steve,
    >
    >Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
    >agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
    >veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the good
    >guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of hobbies.

    I don't resist in wargames or books. I can play a wargame as the
    Germans--I enjoyed PG for hundreds of hours. That's a chess game. I an
    read a history from the German POV; that's educational.

    A first-person sim is something else. It's my own line in the sand. I
    don't expect others to care.

    Steve
    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <hqsh21l0kpenp8s6e7mfnrd3qlgocljnvi@4ax.com>,
    sbartman@visi.com says...

    > >Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
    > >agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
    > >veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the good
    > >guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of hobbies.
    >
    > I don't resist in wargames or books. I can play a wargame as the
    > Germans--I enjoyed PG for hundreds of hours. That's a chess game. I an
    > read a history from the German POV; that's educational.
    >
    > A first-person sim is something else. It's my own line in the sand. I
    > don't expect others to care.

    Huh?

    In PANZER GENERAL, the player took the role of a German general charged
    with fighting a Kampfgruppe through a series of operations. In SH3, the
    player takes the role of a German submarine commander charged with
    attacking Allied shipping with his boat.

    How is one any more "first-person" than the other?

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
    British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
    of this blighted region has already shifted.

    Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
    America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
    Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
    but also to remake the Middle East."
    - Gerard Baker
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:11:51 -0500, Giftzwerg
    <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >In PANZER GENERAL, the player took the role of a German general charged
    >with fighting a Kampfgruppe through a series of operations. In SH3, the
    >player takes the role of a German submarine commander charged with
    >attacking Allied shipping with his boat.
    >
    >How is one any more "first-person" than the other?

    Hex-based symbols versus realistic 3-d, first-person scenes.

    Steve
    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    .....yes and the Japanese tortured POWS, the Americans are still torturing
    Iraqi POWs, and the British army ridiculed its Iraqi POWs. I dont agree with
    what the Germans did during the Second World War of course, but they arent
    any worse than anyone else when it really comes down to it. So no I wont
    worry about playing the Germans in a game. In fact I much prefer playing the
    Germans than the Americans mainly because I am British and I can relate more
    to that war than the Pacific one.
    Nats

    "Troy Mastern" <Troy_Mastern@excite.com> wrote in message
    news:hR3Wd.1290$J14.967@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
    >
    > "Steve Bartman" <sbartman@visi.com> wrote in message
    > news:61gh21ptq99l6virdl3q7a2824n77rnvvl@4ax.com...
    >> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:39:08 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
    >> <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>> The fact that he's a Nazi of course. If you look at soldiers and
    >>>> sailors you're assuming a persona for as robots that's your
    >>>> prerogative.
    >>>
    >>>Uhm, so the commander of "Das Boot" was a Nazi?
    >>>
    >>>In the German Navy, like in any other branch of German armed forces,
    >>>served
    >>>many professionals who weren't "Nazis" in principle. Doing your duty
    >>>doesn't
    >>>mean to agree with the ideology behind it.
    >>
    >> I don't care. He worked for Nazis, he took medals from Nazis, he
    >> killed Americans and Brits in a war started by Nazis. Given the choice
    >> I won't climb into his skin. Just like I'll use my money to something
    >> other than bayoneting the wounded on the Death March. I'll read about
    >> it; I don't want to live it in an ethically-vacant environment.
    >>
    >> Steve
    >>
    >> --
    >> www.thepaxamsolution.com
    >
    > Steve,
    >
    > Most of your arguments are fairly well reasoned (even if I find myself
    > agreeing with Gifty most of the time), and I respect the fact that your a
    > veteran of the USN, but if your going to limit yourself to playing "the
    > good guys" in wargames, perhaps you should re evaluate your choice of
    > hobbies.
    >
    > tm
    >
    >
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    In article <d0alek$1ts$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
    nstutt@nstutt.freeserve.co.uk says...

    > ....yes and the Japanese tortured POWS, the Americans are still torturing
    > Iraqi POWs, and the British army ridiculed its Iraqi POWs.

    And you can't tell the difference, can you.

    Interesting, though, that you make a distinction between US "torture"
    and British "ridicule." On what exactly do you base that? It seems to
    me that anyone paying attention would have to agree that what the
    Americans did at Abu Ghraib was much, much closer to the "ridicule" you
    credit the British with inflicting than the "torture" you tar the
    Japanese with.

    > I dont agree with
    > what the Germans did during the Second World War of course, but they arent
    > any worse than anyone else when it really comes down to it.

    Extermination camps do seem rather worse than something, say, Canada got
    up to. But recognizing this obvious fact would require a sane, unbroken
    view of reality and morality.

    --
    Giftzwerg
    ***
    "Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful
    British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic
    of this blighted region has already shifted.

    Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on
    America=3Fs motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush
    Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats
    but also to remake the Middle East."
    - Gerard Baker
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:54:33 -0000, "Nats"
    <nstutt@nstutt.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

    >....yes and the Japanese tortured POWS, the Americans are still torturing
    >Iraqi POWs, and the British army ridiculed its Iraqi POWs. I dont agree with
    >what the Germans did during the Second World War of course, but they arent
    >any worse than anyone else when it really comes down to it.

    Sure, a regime built around continental genocide is no different than
    the US or UK. Right.

    Steve
    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Good movies, but they do have their (obvious) biases.

    The scene were Jurgen Prochnow turns the boat away from the drowing enemy
    sailors doesn't seem expecially "German biased"

    > Besides the fact
    > that bringing in *any* movie for historical
    > reference......................hmmmm, not smart.

    So read the book by L.G. Buchheim, who served on real U-Boats, or any other
    historical book about German *sailors* (or soldiers, or flyers, or
    officers) - i.e. common guys who had to do their job without the luxury to
    be able to patronize with the help of 20/20 insight.
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Vincenzo Beretta" <reckall@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:ERkWd.6275$WC1.1810@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
    > > Good movies, but they do have their (obvious) biases.
    >
    > The scene were Jurgen Prochnow turns the boat away from the drowing enemy
    > sailors doesn't seem expecially "German biased"


    Um, once scene in a multi-hour movie, is what you base this on ? And to
    refresh you memory on that scene, it wasn't like he laughed as he did
    it............remember ?


    >
    > > Besides the fact
    > > that bringing in *any* movie for historical
    > > reference......................hmmmm, not smart.
    >
    > So read the book by L.G. Buchheim, who served on real U-Boats, or any
    other
    > historical book about German *sailors* (or soldiers, or flyers, or
    > officers) - i.e. common guys who had to do their job without the luxury to
    > be able to patronize with the help of 20/20 insight.


    Your point here being ?
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Hex-based symbols versus realistic 3-d, first-person scenes.

    Actually PG is a 3D game where you are a General looking down a 2D map :o))
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:02:43 -0500, Giftzwerg
    <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >In article <spuh21tu37vcf4suhu37gftuj3ajfrg45f@4ax.com>,
    >sbartman@visi.com says...
    >
    >> >Might be fun. But the RPG aspect would need to be selectable, or risk
    >> >turning off the hard-core sub-simmers.
    >>
    >> My contention is that, without some of this, there never has been a
    >> true sub sim. Attack trainers, not sims. Submarine ops are all about
    >> the crew working as a unit, far ore than other naval platforms (except
    >> perhaps PT boats, minesweepers, and other small craft.)
    >
    >I think you might be manifesting more than a little pride-of-service
    >here, though. It strikes me that someone who, for example, made his
    >naval way working on the flight deck of a USN aircraft carrier might
    >argue that flight ops on a CVN were the premier example of teamwork in
    >naval applications.

    Flight decks are truly scary places, put that's one division, not the
    whole vessel. The flight deck can work great and M-div can be
    hopeless. A carrier is large enough that deficiencies can smooth out.
    Sub crews, there's no place to hide.

    In WWII subs were the only afloat community with deep enlisted
    platform qualification; skimmers didn't start until the 1970s. And
    WWII combat losses and new construction schedules meant that about 1/3
    of the crew got pulled and replaced with nuggets after every patrol
    from mid-war on. Qualification was a never-ending struggle.

    That's not to say he's right, just to point out
    >that all sorts of elite units (submariners, rangers, marines, pilots,
    >airborne, etc) point to their intensive training and overall success as
    >exemplary of general excellence.

    True. I think more RPG elements in some of those would also make for
    better sims. Flight sims, for example, usually have unlimited ordnance
    of every type available, and no airframes are ever cannibalized for
    parts. Each is pristine at take-off. Not realistic even in peacetime.
    "B-17 Flying Fortress" was one of the only sims I know of to track
    collected damage and make the player choose between flying damaged or
    going short-handed. Crew got wounded and killed and had to be
    replaced. Each man had individual stats.

    >I'm not saying this would be a bad idea, but I'm curious about how a
    >designer would go about implementing the difference between a "great"
    >sub skipper and a "mediocre" sub skipper in terms of actual applications
    >of game mechanics.

    Well, the players themselves make for individual greatness, coupled
    with realism settings. Results could produce point of various flavors,
    some representing training resources, some morale improvers, some
    perhaps "political" points with COMSUBPAC that got better refit
    response, a better choice of wardroom, etc. That stuff did and does
    happen. Successful skippers get what they want.

    At sea, I just want to force the player to certain decisions that
    complicate planning. Fuel/time/speed. Broken gear, some fixable if
    patrol time is sacrificed (remaining submerged to work rather than
    hunting), some not fixable and the CO has to make a call to continue
    broken. I'd like the player to have to make at least a pro forma
    watchbill and BS bill. Not every officer and CPO was as good as any
    other. It was up to the CO and XO to decide who to put on the dive,
    who to make Engineer, etc. And look-outs, can't forget lookouts.

    I'm not looking for a spreadsheet game necessarily, although I
    personally wouldn't mind. But an expansion of what 688I did with the
    pierside logistics load-out screen would be a start.

    >In actual game terms, suppose you were going to take the path of a
    >"great" sub commander heading out from Pearl in 1941, and I was going to
    >be merely a "mediocre" submariner. What actual game-decisions would you
    >be making that I would not be making?

    Do your best with what you get randomly. Bank some points. Spend them
    wisely in port and on the next patrol. Make it impossible for anyone
    to build a "perfect" crew. The sports management sims have some good
    techniques for controlling resources. They might be worth looking at.
    Build a crew to match your playing style. Richard O'Kane was
    intellectual, a thinking hunter. Mush Morton was more intuitive, more
    emotional. Let the crew variables be detailed enough that the player
    knows how each man is best motivated and led, what his inherent
    weakness are and which ones can be improved with hard work (but hard
    work that produces fatigue.) Add in combat fatigue and morale changes
    over the course of the patrol. See what happens.

    At the risk of boring you and the ng, and repeating myself, I went to
    archives and found a part of a long e-mail exchange I had in the
    summer of 1998 with a designer considering doing a WWII sub sim. I've
    scrubbed identities, but I wanted to post this to show how long I've
    been dreaming of a game like this. In 1998 the hardware wasn't up to
    the task. Now it is.

    ***********
    "Okay. Up front, I'd like to see a "proper" WWII, US/Pacific
    sim/rpg/strat. hybrid. I think modern sub warfare (which is what I
    did) is too abstract and, well, boring if done "properly." Janes' 688i
    was a magnificent effort (flawed but a great try) but I think they
    found out how much gamers need "magic screens" to visualize the data.
    Also, in today's world, there aren't enough credible ASW threats.
    Modern SSNs, if unleashed in WWII manner, would
    tear the world's merchant traffic to bits in weeks. There is no
    surface navy that could stand up to a US SSN campaign. Period. So
    you're left with SEAL insertions, Persian Gulf minefields, etc. which
    again doesn't delight gamers. WWII was a huge, sprawling mess, with
    the US rocked back in the early years, but coming on, learning,
    getting better gear, and developing great skippers as the war went on.
    It was the Silent Service's finest hour.

    Modern sub combat is not visual. There are no magic radar screens.
    It's done at very long ranges and is more a war between competing
    sonar processors. WWII OTOH was up close, visual, and had much more
    evenly matched platforms. That the Japanese were horrible at
    coordinated ASW is a pity from a designer's standpoint, but the
    logistics challenges (distance), the sea lanes between islands, the
    economic issues involved in stopping trade, plus the US missteps in
    manning, torpedoes, command politics, etc. make this a
    fascinating period IMO. The Atlantic war was "corporate"--big convoys,
    huge ASW committment, German all-out effort. The Pacific effort was
    one-on-one with the good skippers and boats outclassing the mediocre
    by several orders of magnitude.

    The issue for a game is playability. In SH we saw one attempt to
    address this--the thousands of targets motoring around. Made for a
    game, but slaughtered history. On the flip side, if you make targets
    as infrequent as historical (many patrols ended with none) you have
    bored gamers. This is why I think at least half the game should be
    INSIDE the boat. A game within a game if you will. The CO's job was a
    lot more than attacking targets. He had to mold a fighting machine
    that included a very human crew, and support all the mechanical and
    logistic issues inherent in his platform. That's the RPG part I
    envision. Is the player a Mush Morton? Or one of the dozens of abject
    failures who are unremembred today? Same platform, same op areas, but
    very different results. These are human issues, maybe difficult to
    model, but if you want a "real" sub sim you have to go inside the boat
    as well as outside with the targets. A crew that "grows" with
    experience, in many measurable ways (a point allocation system
    perhaps) would be fascinating, and an approach never done before in
    games. Sure to attract attention. I see difficulty levels in your POV
    persona's (the CO) starting position. Personality traits (logic,
    emotional control, fear quotient, empathy, etc.) that you must
    allocate start points to, with it being impossible to be great
    in all (no one is.) Then your CO "grows" as his crew does, as he
    trains them, as they survive. But always new replacements are sent in,
    so the job is never static. Add other dimensions in the wardroom, COB,
    leading chiefs. A CRPG "party" if you will. Maybe your COB is a very
    poor performer, and acts to negate a lot of what you, the CO/player,
    is accomplishing. How to fix that? Do you get him transferred and use
    "political" points with the squadron CO? Or do you try to mold him
    into a better leader through consuming some of your "effort" points
    (lifespan/time) on board? These are real questions any naval leader
    faces. That nothing like them has ever been addressed in games is a
    factor of game designers not having served in the platform IMO. No
    other vessel type has the in-you-face leadership challenges
    of a submarine. It's like a family, and it can click, or it can be
    disfunctional. The CO is the glue, and that's a great launching pad
    for a game design.

    Then, when he's not busy, the CO sinks stuff. <g>

    I'd also like to see a strategic element to the game. A la Red Storn
    Rising all those years ago, your boat acting as anolog for the entire
    fleet effort, speeding up or slowing down the war's progress. To that
    end I'd like a way at the strategic level to test historical scenarios
    ie What would have been the effect of a strategy of tanker
    interdiction taken in early 1943 vice mid-1944 as was the case? Would
    it have sped up the economic collapse of Japan? Would it have
    adversely affected Allied beach landings if sub assets
    had not targeted island resupply since they were after tankers? Those
    sorts of things. Again, hard to model, but neat."

    Steve
    --
    www.thepaxamsolution.com
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > Yeah but Ive heard that Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce for copywright
    > protection which means it may have problems with any computer that has a
    > CDRW drive in it. Is this true?

    I dont have anything else than CDRW or DVD burners in my two pcs, and
    I've never had any trouble with any game using Starforce as
    copyprotecting, so I don't expect any trouble with SH3 either. I have
    several (original) Starforce games installed right now as well, some
    with nocd cracks, no troubles at all with anything.

    IMHO, the whining about Starforce is mostly just overblown hype by small
    minority.

    jok
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:14:14 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >
    >"Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
    >news:1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com...
    >> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >> >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    >> >> Hi,
    >> >>
    >> >> Read all about it here :
    >> >>
    >> >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    >> >>
    >> >> Greetz,
    >> >>
    >> >> Eddy Sterckx
    >> >
    >> >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    >> >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    >> >
    >> "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
    >> been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
    >> be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
    >> realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
    >> constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
    >> realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.
    >
    >
    > Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of the Deep
    >were good sims, in their day.
    >
    They each had their good points, but no one's really made an honest
    effort to do realistic sighting: do you know of any sub sim where you
    could close to anywhere near a realistic range on the surface (like
    500 yards, as often happened in real life) without being spotted?
    Actually, I think Sub Battle and Silent Service let you do that--but
    you could see the enemy for miles away at night!

    Scott Orr
  46. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    "Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
    news:ruvn21lb0e49m9acn2m3keni07kbelt51a@4ax.com...
    > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:14:14 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Scott D. Orr" <sdorr@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
    > >news:1gqd21lqqku34gh0mlser302kf0ha22r4v@4ax.com...
    > >> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:58:21 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >
    > >> >"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > >> >news:Xns960DE834BCC46eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.36...
    > >> >> Hi,
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Read all about it here :
    > >> >>
    > >> >> http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1769
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Greetz,
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Eddy Sterckx
    > >> >
    > >> >Sure wish another good Pacific sub sim would come out. After all, the
    > >> >u-boats accomplishments pale in comparison.
    > >> >
    > >> "Another"? I agree in principle with the sentiment, but heck, I've
    > >> been playing WWII sub sims since Sub Battle, in, what, 1987?, and I'd
    > >> be happy just to get _1_ sim, Atlantic or Pacific, that's moderately
    > >> realistic....I think WWII subs are a very cool subject, and I
    > >> constantly despair that no one's even made a real attempt at a
    > >> realistic one--but I'll have to wait and see how SHIII looks.
    > >
    > >
    > > Yeah, that's true, although Silent Service II, SH 1, and Aces of the
    Deep
    > >were good sims, in their day.
    > >
    > They each had their good points, but no one's really made an honest
    > effort to do realistic sighting: do you know of any sub sim where you
    > could close to anywhere near a realistic range on the surface (like
    > 500 yards, as often happened in real life) without being spotted?
    > Actually, I think Sub Battle and Silent Service let you do that--but
    > you could see the enemy for miles away at night!
    >
    > Scott Orr


    Very, very true; the biggest peeve I have with sub sims, especially
    u-boat ones. Attacking on the surface at night was their bread and butter,
    but as you say, in most sims........viola, night vision for the convoy
    lookouts.
  47. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    > I don't resist in wargames or books. I can play a wargame as the
    > Germans--I enjoyed PG for hundreds of hours. That's a chess game.

    Still you could end up boming your hometown in games like PG or
    sending your own unit on a suicide mission in a WW3 game.

    Christian Seitz
  48. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

    <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1109861022.480108.160930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    > with the deck gun. He turns around and says "you and your realistic
    > tactics, just blast the hell out of 'em".

    I see some good field commander potential here :)
Ask a new question

Read More

PC gaming Games IBM Video Games