Eye candy in wargames

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"I don't do eye candy" - Major H. in the strategic ng to someone
complaining about the "1993 graphics" of TacOps.

It triggered a chuckle, but then it got me wondering about the
importance of graphics in wargames. The main school of thought in here
is that graphics in wargames should be clear and functional, nothing
more, so that the developer can use the time saved by not adding
"superfluous" eye candy on the things that matter more, like AI or
additional features.

I used to be a fervent (and outspoken) proponent of this school of
thought, but lately my views on this are getting more and more
challenged. It seemed logical that time *not* spend on eye candy could
be spend on something else but as I'm now somewhat getting a inside
view on the wargame production process this turns out to be not so
clear-cut.

If you're a "one-man-shop" like Major H or Ron Dockal the adagium still
hold true, but producing a wargame in most cases is the work of a group
of people, each with their particular talents. The developer who takes
care of the graphics is not the guy working on the AI.

Ok - so forget about the "time saved" factor, but how about costs ? Are
eye-candy level graphics worth the additional cost ?

Well, I'm starting to think that to a certain extent they are.

Current hard- and software in combination with a graphics guy who knows
his stuff can produce astounding graphics for a fraction of the cost it
would have taken 10 years ago. I've done some experimenting with the
bitmap graphics of GGWaW and got good results in a fraction of the time
it would have taken me way back in the DOS days.

Then there's screenshots - it's the first thing gamers ask for when a
new game is announced and it's the first thing you see when you browse
to the site of a published game. It's a first impression - and it
counts. I've caught myself getting dragged into reading more about a
particular game when the initial impression is positive and I'm more
likely to check out a game when the screenshots are spectacular. For
anyone wanting the same experience : check out the screenshots of the
new Tin Soldiers : Julius Caesar at the Matrixgames website.

Ugly graphics have an opposite effect - I really have to force myself
to look beyond them, but wouldn't the casual (war)gamer just make the
split-second mental equation bad graphics = bad game ?

Wargamers are just as susceptible to eye candy as every other
monkey-like biped on this planet. Just visit a miniatures tournament or
convention. It's not the best battle that draws the crowd, it's the
tabletop that looks good, even if the battle played out on it is a dead
duck.

Maybe it's a case of wargamers consciously claiming that eye candy
doesn't matter, but their subconsciousness playing a nasty trick on
them ?

Gentlemen, your thoughts on this - as always - highly appreciated

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
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Giftzwerg wrote:

> So what I would say is that something like HTTR probably represents
the
> *optimal* compromise between making the graphics adequate enough that
a
> potential buyer doesn't go "bleagh" when he sees a screenshot, and
> expending significant resources (which, after all, are probably zero-
> sum-gained with *something*) on pretty graphics that don't impact
> gameplay.

Another aspect is that developers can choose to make the graphics
moddable - Hubert Cater made "adequate" graphics for Strategic Command
1, the fanbase turned it into something nearly perfect in my eyes
(dropshadows, prettier icons, ...)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
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In article <1114088472.410267.327050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

> Ok - so forget about the "time saved" factor, but how about costs ? Are
> eye-candy level graphics worth the additional cost ?
>
> Well, I'm starting to think that to a certain extent they are.

The two phrases that your question turns on are "eye-candy level" and
"additional cost," and how we define those terms is going to inform our
decision.

TACOPS is (sorry Major) fairly ugly. HTTR is adequate but not glorious.
DANGEROUS WATERS is very, very pretty.

I have no idea what "additional costs" were involved in making HTTR look
better than TACOPS, nor how much effort was lavished to make DW look so
very, very pretty. But my suspicion is that the graphics in HTTR didn't
cost so very much more than TACOPS[1]. In other words, HTTR uses little
blocks of graphics that look like forests, while TACOPS uses twisty
green lines that appear to have been scrawled with a Binney & Smith
crayon. I like HTTR's look better, but it can't have broken the bank to
make the field green in HTTR instead of leaving it white like TACOPS.
Conversely, I suspect that the developers of DW spent considerable time,
effort, and money in making it look so nice.

So what I would say is that something like HTTR probably represents the
*optimal* compromise between making the graphics adequate enough that a
potential buyer doesn't go "bleagh" when he sees a screenshot, and
expending significant resources (which, after all, are probably zero-
sum-gained with *something*) on pretty graphics that don't impact
gameplay.

[1] I'm putting aside any strictly *mapping* decisions that have actual
impact on the fundamental game system, and just looking at pure
aesthetic elements.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Most Republicans skipped the hearing, leaving Democrats largely
unchallenged as they assailed Bolton's knack for making enemies
and disparaging the very organization he would serve."
- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

"Uh, Dana? I'm pretty sure the organization Mr. Bolton is supposed
to be serving is *America*."
- Giftzwerg
 
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> Maybe it's a case of wargamers consciously claiming that eye candy
> doesn't matter, but their subconsciousness playing a nasty trick on
> them ?

Cleavage sells but I am still not going to add to the TacOps splash screen a
well endowed female Spec4 in a sweat wet T-shirt. :)

Best regards, Major H.
tacops@mac.com
http://www.battlefront.com/
 
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In article <BE8D1DDA.7E80A%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...

> > Maybe it's a case of wargamers consciously claiming that eye candy
> > doesn't matter, but their subconsciousness playing a nasty trick on
> > them ?
>
> Cleavage sells but I am still not going to add to the TacOps splash screen a
> well endowed female Spec4 in a sweat wet T-shirt. :)

Gaaaaack! And you call yourself a *US Marine*!?!?!?!?!

My uncle is rolling in his grave.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Most Republicans skipped the hearing, leaving Democrats largely
unchallenged as they assailed Bolton's knack for making enemies
and disparaging the very organization he would serve."
- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

"Uh, Dana? I'm pretty sure the organization Mr. Bolton is supposed
to be serving is *America*."
- Giftzwerg
 
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On 21 Apr 2005 06:01:12 -0700, "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"I don't do eye candy" - Major H. in the strategic ng to someone
>complaining about the "1993 graphics" of TacOps.

Yes, that be me, and I just posted back to the Major that eye candy
sells. :)
 
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Major H <tacops@mac.com> wrote in news:BE8D1DDA.7E80A%tacops@mac.com:

>> Maybe it's a case of wargamers consciously claiming that eye candy
>> doesn't matter, but their subconsciousness playing a nasty trick on
>> them ?
>
> Cleavage sells but I am still not going to add to the TacOps splash
> screen a well endowed female Spec4 in a sweat wet T-shirt. :)

So, you've already given some thought to the question where in TacOps you
could get away with it ... :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
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In article <Xns963FA6E96E189eddysterckxhotmailco@67.98.68.12>,
eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

> > Cleavage sells but I am still not going to add to the TacOps splash
> > screen a well endowed female Spec4 in a sweat wet T-shirt. :)
>
> So, you've already given some thought to the question where in TacOps you
> could get away with it ... :)

Some days, cleavage is *all* I think about.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Most Republicans skipped the hearing, leaving Democrats largely
unchallenged as they assailed Bolton's knack for making enemies
and disparaging the very organization he would serve."
- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

"Uh, Dana? I'm pretty sure the organization Mr. Bolton is supposed
to be serving is *America*."
- Giftzwerg
 
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<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1114104425.186578.136340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Giftzwerg wrote:
>
> Another aspect is that developers can choose to make the graphics
> moddable - Hubert Cater made "adequate" graphics for Strategic Command
> 1, the fanbase turned it into something nearly perfect in my eyes
> (dropshadows, prettier icons, ...)
>

For those small developers that can't spend the time, I think making them
modable is the correct balance...

I don't count myself as someone that cares too much about the graphics...
HTTR is good with me, and any
of the HPS games are also fine... but I have to admit that TacOps, while a
great game, undershot this one (at least for me)...

Mike
 
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I think good clear graphics are very important, but with good I
certainly do not mean 3D models and fanzy animations. Usually when there
is discussion about eye candy some people turn discussion into two
opposing choices. First is that graphics doesn't matter at all or you
want animated tanks running on strategic map where Europe is divided
into three areas.

But it is not that simple. I for example couldn't never get into TacOps
because it just didn't look nice. But on other hand I would be very
happy to play game where units would be just colored boxes, if those
boxes looked nice and fit into their environment.




--
jari k

remove unnecessary parts of address to make it work
 
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In article <Co2dnTgvfZ3kiPXfRVn-2A@rogers.com>, mmoore327@rogers.com
says...

> > Another aspect is that developers can choose to make the graphics
> > moddable - Hubert Cater made "adequate" graphics for Strategic Command
> > 1, the fanbase turned it into something nearly perfect in my eyes
> > (dropshadows, prettier icons, ...)

> For those small developers that can't spend the time, I think making them
> modable is the correct balance...
>
> I don't count myself as someone that cares too much about the graphics...
> HTTR is good with me, and any
> of the HPS games are also fine... but I have to admit that TacOps, while a
> great game, undershot this one (at least for me)...

What always bugged me about TACOPS graphics is that I wanted there to be
another (closer) level of zoom to the map - particularly as screen sizes
changed from 640x480 to 1600x1200. Maybe several levels of zoom. With
correspondingly easier fine-positioning of units and allowing me to
dispense with the "pop-up" fine-unit-selection box when several counters
are in close proximity.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Most Republicans skipped the hearing, leaving Democrats largely
unchallenged as they assailed Bolton's knack for making enemies
and disparaging the very organization he would serve."
- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

"Uh, Dana? I'm pretty sure the organization Mr. Bolton is supposed
to be serving is *America*."
- Giftzwerg
 
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In article <ot5g61prf25v4lfq74fvpghqn3m938rrn4@4ax.com>,
ae@invalid.email says...

> >"I don't do eye candy" - Major H. in the strategic ng to someone
> >complaining about the "1993 graphics" of TacOps.
>
> Yes, that be me, and I just posted back to the Major that eye candy
> sells. :)

Eye candy sells ... *once*.

I've bought *three* versions[1] of TACOPS from Major H.

[1] V1.0 I didn't have, IIRC. Mac only?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Most Republicans skipped the hearing, leaving Democrats largely
unchallenged as they assailed Bolton's knack for making enemies
and disparaging the very organization he would serve."
- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

"Uh, Dana? I'm pretty sure the organization Mr. Bolton is supposed
to be serving is *America*."
- Giftzwerg
 
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:02:45 -0400, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:


>Eye candy sells ... *once*.

IYO austere opinion. Say this in any other gaming group and you will
get laughed off the board.
 
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Over the years I have had a lot of conversations about the graphics in
TacOps. Many/most times when I really explored with an individual exactly
what it was about the graphics that he did not like, the real issue turned
out to be that they wanted a different type of game at a different scale. I
think of TacOps scale as being grand tactical. That scale does not give a
tactical fan all the detail that he wants and an operational fan gets too
much. So ... not only did I pick a niche game genre I also managed to pick
the least popular scale within that niche. :)

Best regards, Major H.
tacops@mac.com
http://www.battlefront.com/
 
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In article <BE8DA5A4.7E828%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...

> Over the years I have had a lot of conversations about the graphics in
> TacOps. Many/most times when I really explored with an individual exactly
> what it was about the graphics that he did not like, the real issue turned
> out to be that they wanted a different type of game at a different scale. I
> think of TacOps scale as being grand tactical. That scale does not give a
> tactical fan all the detail that he wants and an operational fan gets too
> much. So ... not only did I pick a niche game genre I also managed to pick
> the least popular scale within that niche. :)

If this is a response to my post, though, what I meant is not that I
want another *scale*, but simply that I want more *zoom* of exactly the
same scale; a purely graphical exercise in making the units and the
terrain bigger, such that I could position my men more precisely. If I
could get sharper, better graphics in a zoomed-in view, so much the
better.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Most Republicans skipped the hearing, leaving Democrats largely
unchallenged as they assailed Bolton's knack for making enemies
and disparaging the very organization he would serve."
- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

"Uh, Dana? I'm pretty sure the organization Mr. Bolton is supposed
to be serving is *America*."
- Giftzwerg
 
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> So ... not only did I pick a niche game genre I also managed to pick
> the least popular scale within that niche. :)

And yet, TacOps is still selling while most of the prettier games released
in the same ten years are not. :)

Best regards, Major H.
tacops@mac.com
http://www.battlefront.com/
 
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In article <BE8DA7D4.7E82A%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...

> > So ... not only did I pick a niche game genre I also managed to pick
> > the least popular scale within that niche. :)
>
> And yet, TacOps is still selling while most of the prettier games released
> in the same ten years are not. :)

Well, this is weirdly unfair, given that virtually *no* games released
ten years ago are selling ... except TACOPS ... pretty or no.

<g>

--
Giftzwerg
***
"Most Republicans skipped the hearing, leaving Democrats largely
unchallenged as they assailed Bolton's knack for making enemies
and disparaging the very organization he would serve."
- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

"Uh, Dana? I'm pretty sure the organization Mr. Bolton is supposed
to be serving is *America*."
- Giftzwerg
 
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:56:18 GMT, Major H <tacops@mac.com> wrote:


>And yet, TacOps is still selling while most of the prettier games released
>in the same ten years are not. :)

If a lot of those old games where given a modern face lift and made to
run on XP they would sell.
 
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:03:22 -0400, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <BE8DA7D4.7E82A%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
>
>> > So ... not only did I pick a niche game genre I also managed to pick
>> > the least popular scale within that niche. :)
>>
>> And yet, TacOps is still selling while most of the prettier games released
>> in the same ten years are not. :)
>
>Well, this is weirdly unfair, given that virtually *no* games released
>ten years ago are selling ... except TACOPS ... pretty or no.

most games are abandoned so you don't have the option to buy them even
if you wanted.
 
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On 21 Apr 2005 06:01:12 -0700, "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"I don't do eye candy" - Major H. in the strategic ng to someone
>complaining about the "1993 graphics" of TacOps.

That's perfectly OK, Major H should hire someone to do it for
him :eek:)

>It triggered a chuckle, but then it got me wondering about the
>importance of graphics in wargames. The main school of thought in here
>is that graphics in wargames should be clear and functional, nothing
>more, so that the developer can use the time saved by not adding
>"superfluous" eye candy on the things that matter more, like AI or
>additional features.

Eye candy is *extremely* important IMO. If some think I am
shallow for saying that, I don't mind - call me shallow.

I came to regard devs and publishers who do not pay attention to
eye candy as if they're insulting me. Wargames are time consuming
hobby. When playing a wargame I am supposed to stare for HOURS on end,
and for many *months* (if game is worthy of my time) at something
ugly? At something developer did as an afterthought? No, please. If I
"pay" for the game - not with money, but with many hours of my
valuable free time - then I want to stare at the map and little
units/counters/battle animations that are at least pleasant to watch.
Nothing more, nothing less. Just pleasant.

Now of course big question is "what is good eye candy" and what
is "pleasant to watch"?

Some examples:

- HTTR is actually excellent looking game for me. Good example
that "eye candy" can mean just decently painted 2D maps and finely
drawn 2D unit counters. No bells and whistles, just decency and
functionality, but still obviously work of someone who knows to work
with graphics.
- Practically the same goes for FPG which looks very much like
HTTR visually (though game mechanics are very different).
- UV and WITP look very very nice with some modded user made
maps, though UI in those games could use some work. Original graphics
was decent, modded graphics available on the net is excellent.
- GG WAW - example of almost perfectly looking game, very decent
grand strategic map with sexy little unit icons. Everything a gamer
should ask for from a grand strategy game.

(Incidentally, I was showing WAW to one of my office buddies and
he dubbed it "skin for Excel": obviously for him this was a game of
numbers, so, basically could be played in Excel spreadsheet software
with some graphical enhancements to look "gamish".)

I'd say it's not just a coincidence good looking games usually
have very nice sounds too.

Some examples of BAD eye candy, ie. developer trying to do eye
candy but doing it badly, and actually distracting from gameplay:

- Panzer General 3D series - ugly, unnecesary pseudo-3d in what
is totally 2D game was confusing and distracting.

Some examples of NO eye candy at all, which I find downright
*insulting*:

- Any HPS game. Why would I pay full price for a game that was
produced with half the effort? Yes doing decent graphics involves some
effort...

BTW I tried demo of TacOps and it didn't look that bad to me.
Though it could use some help from a hired graphic designer. Major H,
graphic enthusiasts from East European countries can be hired
practically for free these days ;o)

>I used to be a fervent (and outspoken) proponent of this school of
>thought, but lately my views on this are getting more and more
>challenged. It seemed logical that time *not* spend on eye candy could
>be spend on something else but as I'm now somewhat getting a inside
>view on the wargame production process this turns out to be not so
>clear-cut.

:eek:))))

Nicely said. Beta experience with Arjuna and his team must be
enlightening.

>of people, each with their particular talents. The developer who takes
>care of the graphics is not the guy working on the AI.

Usually.

>Ok - so forget about the "time saved" factor, but how about costs ? Are
>eye-candy level graphics worth the additional cost ?

Absolutely!

O.
 
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> If a lot of those old games where given a modern face lift and made to
> run on XP they would sell.

I think many would sell if they were just kept OS compatible and the last
lot of reported bugs were fixed. Not enough probably to keep them in brick
stores but certainly enough to keep them available from an Internet store.
For example, I think that it was crazy for the V for Victory series to be
abandoned. New gamers appear every year.

Best regards, Major H.
tacops@mac.com
http://www.battlefront.com/
 
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Major H wrote:
> > If a lot of those old games where given a modern face lift and made
to
> > run on XP they would sell.
>
> I think many would sell if they were just kept OS compatible and the
last
> lot of reported bugs were fixed. Not enough probably to keep them in
brick
> stores but certainly enough to keep them available from an Internet
store.
> For example, I think that it was crazy for the V for Victory series
to be
> abandoned. New gamers appear every year.

Eric Young designed the V for Victory series, he was then hired by
Keith Z of Atomic to work on the Close Combat series. I'm guessing that
- as was customary at the time - the rights of the series remained with
the publiser (360 ?). So even if he wanted to, maybe he couldn't
upgrade the V series out of contractual reasons. Damn shame as they
were top.

Given that he then moved on to do Squad Battles, with the second
installment coming out soon, maybe there's also the aspect that he
can't possibly do everything and has to choose.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
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Giftzwerg wrote:

> Well, this is weirdly unfair, given that virtually *no* games
released
> ten years ago are selling ... except TACOPS ... pretty or no.

.... And here's me thinking that "BattleGround" game has been selling
for 15 years now :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
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Aldwyn Edain wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:02:45 -0400, Giftzwerg
> <giftzwerg999@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Eye candy sells ... *once*.
>
> IYO austere opinion. Say this in any other gaming group and you will
> get laughed off the board.

I fully believe it when an individual gamer says to me that for him eye
candy doesn't matter. That said, I've never heard a good reason why
wargamers - as a group and on average - wouldn't have the same basic
psychological treats as other humans. One of the basic treats being :
that what looks good, attracts attention. Be it a woman or a computer
game :)

I gave the example of miniatures battles at conventions - the prettiest
battle, not the most interesting or closely fought, gets the most
attention. Now I'm pretty sure that if you would ask the spectators if
for them eye candy mattered 80% would say "no", yet they stand there
and not at the next table ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
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"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:3olg61ti9heqf1p2judcm2b6okksnhrts2@4ax.com...
> On 21 Apr 2005 06:01:12 -0700, "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
> <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"I don't do eye candy" - Major H. in the strategic ng to someone
> >complaining about the "1993 graphics" of TacOps.
>
> That's perfectly OK, Major H should hire someone to do it for
> him :eek:)
>
> >It triggered a chuckle, but then it got me wondering about the
> >importance of graphics in wargames. The main school of thought in here
> >is that graphics in wargames should be clear and functional, nothing
> >more, so that the developer can use the time saved by not adding
> >"superfluous" eye candy on the things that matter more, like AI or
> >additional features.
>
> Eye candy is *extremely* important IMO. If some think I am
> shallow for saying that, I don't mind - call me shallow.
>
> I came to regard devs and publishers who do not pay attention to
> eye candy as if they're insulting me. Wargames are time consuming
> hobby. When playing a wargame I am supposed to stare for HOURS on end,
> and for many *months* (if game is worthy of my time) at something
> ugly? At something developer did as an afterthought? No, please. If I
> "pay" for the game - not with money, but with many hours of my
> valuable free time - then I want to stare at the map and little
> units/counters/battle animations that are at least pleasant to watch.
> Nothing more, nothing less. Just pleasant.
>

Oleg has a good point here. The graphics have to be good enough that they
don't distract the player or turn him off from the game.

To expand on that, they also have to be functional. Wargames tend to be
information dense and good graphics can go a long ways towards helping the
player assimilate and digest all the relevant data. Good, well, ergonomics
probably isn't the right word but something in that direction, is critical.
It isn't strictly game design, graphics or UI, but a grey zone in-between
all three that often gets forgotten or tacked on clumsily after the fact
because no one took it into consideration when they started.

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.