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How do i get the "Brandy" sound?

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Anonymous
March 23, 2005 1:01:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

What do they do to get this clear vocal sound on the last 2 Brandy LPs?

I'm already using this trick : lots of deesser + lots of high eq. this let's me get near but it's not it...

thanx for the help.

More about : brandy sound

Anonymous
March 23, 2005 8:10:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Alexander P. Barkey" <platinmc@web.de> wrote in message
news:D 1rb88$ihh$01$1@news.t-online.com...
> What do they do to get this clear vocal sound on the last 2 Brandy LPs?
> I'm already using this trick : lots of deesser + lots of high eq. this
> let's me get near but it's not it...
> thanx for the help.

I'd probably look into the mic, the room, and the talent.

;>)

JHH
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 2:41:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi,

the mic is a Brauner VM-1. The Vocal Room has been professionally built and equipped and the talent is replacable ;-) Probably you
don't know what I mean by talking about the "Brandy Sound". Listen to Brandy's "Full Moon" or "Afrodisiac" on her last Album.
Then you know what I'm talking about. Her voice sounds just like a big and wide "pad" instead of a single "string".




"John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:_ph0e.13528$DW.10034@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Alexander P. Barkey" <platinmc@web.de> wrote in message news:D 1rb88$ihh$01$1@news.t-online.com...
>> What do they do to get this clear vocal sound on the last 2 Brandy LPs?
>> I'm already using this trick : lots of deesser + lots of high eq. this let's me get near but it's not it...
>> thanx for the help.
>
> I'd probably look into the mic, the room, and the talent.
>
> ;>)
>
> JHH
>
Related resources
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 2:41:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Alexander P. Barkey" <platinmc@web.de> wrote:
>
> [...] Her voice sounds just like a big and wide "pad" instead of a
> single "string".


I haven't listened, but what you're describing sounds like doubling
and/or a bit of subtle chorus effect.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 5:58:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 7:15:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent 86 wrote:
> First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
>

Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
north of Spain.
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 7:33:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:15:55 GMT, John Noll
<jn145_deletethisfirst_@verizon.net> wrote:

>Agent 86 wrote:
>> First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
>>
>
>Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
>north of Spain.

In the name of all that's holy, please stop!

I've already gone around for two days singing and whistling
something about .......... Wow, it's gone. Thanks guys.

Now, about this other matter,
Y'all are just cruel,

Chris Hornbeck
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 8:17:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
news:e7g441tht9osvku8jeub3actipgdjhm5bs@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:15:55 GMT, John Noll
> <jn145_deletethisfirst_@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Agent 86 wrote:
>>> First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
>>>
>>
>>Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
>>north of Spain.
>
> In the name of all that's holy, please stop!

Ok, we'll stop... but only if you come on a summer's day, bringing gifts
from far away. :D 

Neil Henderson
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 8:17:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Neil Henderson wrote:

> "Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
> news:e7g441tht9osvku8jeub3actipgdjhm5bs@4ax.com...
>
>>On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:15:55 GMT, John Noll
>><jn145_deletethisfirst_@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Agent 86 wrote:
>>>
>>>>First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
>>>north of Spain.
>>
>>In the name of all that's holy, please stop!
>
>
> Ok, we'll stop... but only if you come on a summer's day, bringing gifts
> from far away. :D 
>
> Neil Henderson
>


We had one of their managers once, and now I know how they managed to
snatch failure from the jaws of success.
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 11:11:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Neil Henderson" <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:o 3s0e.2896$yq2.1848@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
> news:e7g441tht9osvku8jeub3actipgdjhm5bs@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:15:55 GMT, John Noll
> > <jn145_deletethisfirst_@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Agent 86 wrote:
> >>> First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
> >>north of Spain.
> >
> > In the name of all that's holy, please stop!
>
> Ok, we'll stop... but only if you come on a summer's day, bringing gifts
> from far away. :D 
>
> Neil Henderson

C'mon, let's get back to the OP's question. She's a fine girl, and a good
wi....


Crud.

Dave O'H
oheareATmagmaDOTca
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 1:32:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

now i know why they be sayin crack is bad for people... hehe ;-)

>>>Agent 86 wrote:
>>>> First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
>>>north of Spain.
>>
>> In the name of all that's holy, please stop!
>
> Ok, we'll stop... but only if you come on a summer's day, bringing gifts
> from far away. :D 
>
> Neil Henderson
>
>
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 5:48:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:11:37 -0500, Dave O'Heare <> wrote:
>
> "Neil Henderson" <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:o 3s0e.2896$yq2.1848@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>> "Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in message
>> news:e7g441tht9osvku8jeub3actipgdjhm5bs@4ax.com...
>> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:15:55 GMT, John Noll
>> > <jn145_deletethisfirst_@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Agent 86 wrote:
>> >>> First, you have to find a port on a Western bay.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
>> >>north of Spain.
>> >
>> > In the name of all that's holy, please stop!
>>
>> Ok, we'll stop... but only if you come on a summer's day, bringing gifts
>> from far away. :D 
>>
>> Neil Henderson
>
> C'mon, let's get back to the OP's question. She's a fine girl, and a good
> wi....
>
>
> Crud.
>

Do do do
Do do do
Do

Do do do
do do do
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 3:07:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John Noll wrote:

> Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
> north of Spain.

He's got a VM1. I think the mic thing is covered. <g>

--
ha
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 4:24:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

is there only one person who can answer my question? does anyone in here actually know what i'm talking about? probably i'm
looking in the wrong spot for "professional" help...

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1gtxci5.1dotfji1ps7gufN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> John Noll wrote:
>
>> Or get a mic capsule that's sputtered in silver from the
>> north of Spain.
>
> He's got a VM1. I think the mic thing is covered. <g>
>
> --
> ha
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 4:24:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Alexander P. Barkey wrote:


> How do i get the "Brandy" sound?


Get Brandy?
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 4:24:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Alexander P. Barkey" <platinmc@web.de> wrote in
news:D 1vloh$o9k$05$1@news.t-online.com:

> is there only one person who can answer my question? does anyone in
> here actually know what i'm talking about? probably i'm looking in the
> wrong spot for "professional" help...

Let them have their fun. Someone will eventually sober up and answer your
question (I can't so I won't try).

And the "pro" in rec.audio.pro stands for "production", not "professional".
While there are professionals here, most of us just hang out to look pro.
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 4:24:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Alexander P. Barkey" wrote:

> is there only one person who can answer my question? does anyone in here actually know what i'm talking about? probably i'm
> looking in the wrong spot for "professional" help...


Ouch!

A sense of humor would help.

The "pro" stands for "production", anyway.
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 5:00:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Alexander P. Barkey" <platinmc@web.de> wrote in message
news:D 1vloh$o9k$05$1@news.t-online.com...
> is there only one person who can answer my question? does anyone in here
> actually know what i'm talking about? probably i'm looking in the wrong
> spot for "professional" help...

OK, how's this... you described the sound as being almost like a synth pad.
I'm not sure about Brandy specifically (other than that I hear she's a fine
gir....AUUGGH!), but I know the effect you're referring to... try this:

1.) Use a good high-quality LDC... a quiet one, you're going to be laying
down a stack of trax with it
2.) Use a high-quality preamp... see above
3.) Get the singer in real close
4.) Don't use compression to track
5.) Have her drop about 80 layers of vocals (OK, slight exaggeration... but
not by much).
6.) Use voc-align, or edit so they're locked tight, or make her get it tight
during performance.
7.) Group the tracks to submixes appropriately, if you've got 40 of those 80
tracks doing the chorus, and 15 of 'em doing the main part of each verse,
another 15 doing the alternate lines of each verse, and another 10 doing
"ooohs", then use four submixes. Use some compression on the submixes, not
on the individual tracks.
8.) Use slight amounts of ambience (not a big 'verb, just a slight ambient
effect), but not on all the tracks, it'd get murky - send a few of the
individual tracks to a group effect.
9.) Bask in the sensuality.
10.) Unless, of course, your singer isn't up to the task... then you can
bask in the hell of what you've wrought.

Oh, and don't forget to use a 60hz gated sine wave as your kick drum. :D 

Neil Henderson
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 9:13:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Alexander P. Barkey wrote:

> is there only one person who can answer my question? does anyone in here
> actually know what i'm talking about?

Firstly, I do not listen to Brandy. I don't even know who she is. I do
know that I really like Brauner VM1's, so if you're using that mic I
kind of doubt you need to look further for a suitable mic.

Your description of the sound you're after combined with what you say
you're already able to get, sounds like a specific room's
characteristics and/or a specific reverberation device contribute the
"Her voice sounds just like a big and wide "pad" instead of a single
"string" thing. What have you to employ there? Can you apply some reverb
+ chorusing + multiple-pitch-shifting to get that padesque sound?

> The Vocal Room has been professionally built and equipped

Yeah, good, but how big is it? What's it equippped with?

> probably i'm looking in the wrong spot for "professional" help...

Consider what you're paying for the advice. You want to bring a Brandy
recording and some of your own recordings to someone and pay them to
listen to it and tell you what they think you need to do, besides hire
Brandy (and honestly, you might be surprised how many times that _is_
the answer to this type of question), to get closer to her vocal sound?
If so, Bob Ohhsson, who posts here, would be a great first-call audient
professor.

OTOH, if she's famous, have you searched online for trade rag articles
about how her stuff is done? You could also ask on the Pro Audio list.

http://www.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio

--
ha

--
ha
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 10:31:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <d1vloh$o9k$05$1@news.t-online.com> platinmc@web.de writes:

> is there only one person who can answer my question? does anyone in here
> actually know what i'm talking about?

No.

> probably i'm
> looking in the wrong spot for "professional" help...

No, you're asking a question that doesn't have a specific answer. To
get "the Brandy sound" you don't just need a microphone and a signal
processor, you need Brandy, an engineer, a producer, and a vision.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 6:56:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> No, you're asking a question that doesn't have a specific answer. To
> get "the Brandy sound" you don't just need a microphone and a signal
> processor, you need Brandy, an engineer, a producer, and a vision.

Look, if i was talking about this one particular "Cher Sound" everybody would have answered : "use antares auto-tune on the voice
and set it up to operate as fast as possible. this is how u get this "Cher-Vocal-Effect"."

I'm not talking about getting my singer to sound exactly like brandy. I know older recordings of Brandy and I see the difference
in production between the first album and the last for example. I'm just trying to figure out how they make the 20 voices she
sings in the hook (that's what i already figured out) so perfectly smooth and stereo-wide. Don't you know those pads you play on
your fav. keyboard that just sound soooo big and bright and wide when you hit a chord? That's what I mean.
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 6:56:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Alexander P. Barkey wrote:

> I'm just trying to figure out how they make the 20 voices she sings in the
> hook (that's what i already figured out) so perfectly smooth and
> stereo-wide.

Stacked vocals, aligned, EQ'd, 'verbed, chorused, slightly
pitch-shifted, panned. What have you actually tried so far? Using what
tools? Etc.

> Don't you know those pads you play on your fav. keyboard that just sound
> soooo big and bright and wide when you hit a chord? That's what I mean.

I avoid those. <g>

--
ha
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 6:56:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <d218r2$hfq$01$1@news.t-online.com> platinmc@web.de writes:

> > No, you're asking a question that doesn't have a specific answer. To
> > get "the Brandy sound" you don't just need a microphone and a signal
> > processor, you need Brandy, an engineer, a producer, and a vision.

> I'm not talking about getting my singer to sound exactly like brandy.

OK, so you don't need Brandy.

> I'm just trying
> to figure out how they make the 20 voices she
> sings in the hook (that's what i already figured out) so perfectly smooth and
> stereo-wide.

That's where the engineer, the producer, and the vision comes in.
Chances are there's a lot of compression on each of the tracks,
they're panned here and there, and there may be some delays applied to
give the effect of panning without changing the relative levels.

Experiment. You have the model.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 9:59:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Stacked vocals, aligned, EQ'd, 'verbed, chorused, slightly
> pitch-shifted, panned. What have you actually tried so far? Using what
> tools? Etc.

ok here's what i did.

one main vocal.

about 20 doubles on another bus. logic plugin enveloper to smooth each single double out. panned everything hard left or right for
a wide stereo image. on the bus i had waves deesser running at -30db threshold + an eq with +10db at the top end so the highs i
cutted out come back in but much smoother. this step got me alot closer to brandy. then i tried different chorusses, or ensemble
effects. phaser and flange. but nothing got me closer. it's like i got 80% of what i want but i can't figure out the missing
20%...
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 10:43:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:13:00 +0000, Jeff Chestek wrote:

......since when has "pro" been in common
> usage as an abbreviation for "production"? In the States it's more
> commonly used as an abbreviation for "professional".

It's also often used as the opposite of "con". So, if you've been to
prison, you can't post here.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 12:36:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message news:znr1111770726k@trad...
>
> In article <d218r2$hfq$01$1@news.t-online.com> platinmc@web.de writes:
> >
> > I'm just trying
> > to figure out how they make the 20 voices she
> > sings in the hook (that's what i already figured out) so perfectly smooth and
> > stereo-wide.
>
> That's where the engineer, the producer, and the vision comes in.
> Chances are there's a lot of compression on each of the tracks,
> they're panned here and there, and there may be some delays applied to
> give the effect of panning without changing the relative levels.


I don't know how many times one can clone a vocal track and end up
with anything more than increased volume.

DM
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 2:47:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> I don't know how many times one can clone a vocal track and end up
> with anything more than increased volume.

Enya does. <g>

Which leads me to wonder if what he's after is something you get if
tracking to superb analog and then doing all that stuff to it using
actual outboard instead of plugs.

--
ha
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 2:47:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Alexander P. Barkey wrote:

> it's like i got 80% of what i want but i can't figure out the missing
> 20%...

Now try adding multi-harmonization, like you'd get with an Eventide
H3000 and up. Bring it up panned widely on a stereo subgroup.

--
ha
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 6:38:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

when refierring to that "Cher" sound, the answer is WITHOUT A DOUBT, antares
auto-tune, i recently started to use it, and like previously stated, at high
speed, it sounds very synthesized and unnatural. The plugin version offers
wonderful results, and i can only imagine the rack mount version is equal or
higher in quality. But it is definately the answer you are looking for.
Just remmber, the plugin doesn't "fix" the vocal if the vocalist sings the
wrong note, it doesn't know what note it's supposed to be, unless you enter
in the correct scale, or even the individual notes, it simply "bends" the
sang note to the closest major, minor, etc, note based on cents and
semitones.... with a fast speed, (ie. zero setting) if the artist is singing
and fluctuates smoothly between notes, the sound is very noticeable, and
sounds sythetically generated, which is exactly what Cher's song sounds
like, and I guess Brandy too...Personally i prefer to use it subtly, because
I prefer real singing, and the closer to real singing it sounds, the better
it sounds, to me. But if a synthetic keyboard/vocal track is the effect you
are shooting for, I say check this plugin or rack processor out... it is
definately the answer you're looking for.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 10:20:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message news:1gtzj6o.xzzdv10c7tveN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>
> > I don't know how many times one can clone a vocal track and end up
> > with anything more than increased volume.
>
> Enya does. <g>

Hey... for the most part, I like her stuff.

> Which leads me to wonder if what he's after is something you get if
> tracking to superb analog and then doing all that stuff to it using
> actual outboard instead of plugs.

Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.

DM
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 11:03:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Qv%0e.1471$Go4.439@trnddc05> mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com writes:

> I don't know how many times one can clone a vocal track and end up
> with anything more than increased volume.

If you just clone it, sure, there's no difference betwen summing
clones and turning up the volume. But if you either record the stacked
tracks so they're humanly different, or process them differently, you
can get the kind of thing the original poster is aiming for. I don't
know that I've ever heard the real Brandy, but I think of Enya when I
hear something described that way.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 11:58:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:0381e.26399$oa6.17788@trnddc07...
>
> Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
> real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.
>

I pulled up a few clips from her album and it doesn't sound stacked to me
either (at least by a human doubling the parts). I don't even think with
something Vocalign you could match it up that good.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 12:31:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Kb91e.66815$7z6.29314@lakeread04> pkurtyka@cox.net writes:

> when refierring to that "Cher" sound, the answer is WITHOUT A DOUBT, antares
> auto-tune

There was an article somewhere (which I think was ultimately quoted in
rec.audio.pro if not all over the net) by the engineer or producer of
"Believe" who explained how they got that "quantized" sound, and it
wasn't with Antares AutoTune. I don't remember what it was and I don't
care, and with all the people who are so sure that it was AutoTune
it's likely possible to get that sound using AutoTune. There are
alternate ways to get similar sounding sound modification. This is
one, but apparently not the actual one used on the actual song.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 3:23:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Geoff Duncan" <nacnud@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:42453a1d@clear.net.nz...
>
> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb99/articles/tracks66...
>
> Is this what you are looking for?
>
> Geoff




Attaboy! That's the one!

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 5:24:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> If you just clone it, sure, there's no difference betwen summing
> clones and turning up the volume. But if you either record the stacked
> tracks so they're humanly different, or process them differently, you
> can get the kind of thing the original poster is aiming for. I don't
> know that I've ever heard the real Brandy, but I think of Enya when I
> hear something described that way.

all my doubles are recorded not copied. i'm only working with singers who are capable of doing the same thing twice.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 5:24:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <d23nqa$or8$01$1@news.t-online.com> platinmc@web.de writes:

> all my doubles are recorded not copied. i'm only working with singers who are
> capable of doing the same thing twice.

Well, then tell then NOT to, but to get a little looser. But not too
loose. Again, I reiterate - that's where the experience part comes in.
You might have to record 100 tracks to get 20 that fit together the
way you want. No magic in that, just time and effort, and the ability
to see when you're getting there, when you're going off track, and
when you're finished.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 5:24:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If your're referring to the singer and not the song, sing or have the
singer sing sharp all the time.


Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 10:03:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Well, then tell then NOT to, but to get a little looser. But not too
> loose. Again, I reiterate - that's where the experience part comes in.
> You might have to record 100 tracks to get 20 that fit together the
> way you want. No magic in that, just time and effort, and the ability
> to see when you're getting there, when you're going off track, and
> when you're finished.

I honestly think we're talking Harmonizer here...

--
ha
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 10:23:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ricky Hunt" <rhunt22@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:wu91e.104023$r55.91377@attbi_s52...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
> news:0381e.26399$oa6.17788@trnddc07...
> >
> > Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
> > real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.
> >
>
> I pulled up a few clips from her album and it doesn't sound stacked to me
> either (at least by a human doubling the parts). I don't even think with
> something Vocalign you could match it up that good.
>
>

Well.... I was in reference to the OP's inquiry about that sort of sound,
believing that from what I've read here, that he must be trying to do it
all from cloned tracks without the help of mother nature's stacked parts.

As for Enya... I *do* think the tracks are stacked, at least to a large degree.

The whole concept for the 'effect' that the OP seems to be looking
(I don't know anything about "Brandy"), is created by the lack of perfect
accuracy. In Enya's case, she's just damn good and tends to be spot on
nearly every time & track. I'd certainly be open to correction from rec/mix
engineers who have worked on her sessions, but her stuff sounds very
pleasantly overdubbed to me.

I believe that the sound the OP is looking for requires that bit of human
input which comes from combining multiple takes, not just multiple tracks.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 10:28:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Lorin David Schultz" <Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca> wrote in message news:2vc1e.74205$KI2.5241@clgrps12...
> "Geoff Duncan" <nacnud@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:42453a1d@clear.net.nz...
> >
> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb99/articles/tracks66...
> >
> > Is this what you are looking for?
> >
> > Geoff
>
>
>
>
> Attaboy! That's the one!
>
> --
> "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
> - Lorin David Schultz
> in the control room
> making even bad news sound good
>
> (Remove spamblock to reply)


Doggone it.... I don't want to be obnoxious, but I could have sworn (and
I don't have time to Google it) that this discussion went on long enough to
have determined that in this interview, the engineer didn't want to imply
that the use of auto-tune was necessary for the Diva... but eventually,
right here on r.a.p., I could swear (but I won't) that it came to pass that
we discovered that *both* were used to create the final result.

DM
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 2:08:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Doggone it.... I don't want to be obnoxious, but I could have sworn (and
> I don't have time to Google it) that this discussion went on long enough to
> have determined that in this interview, the engineer didn't want to imply
> that the use of auto-tune was necessary for the Diva... but eventually,
> right here on r.a.p., I could swear (but I won't) that it came to pass that
> we discovered that *both* were used to create the final result.
>
> DM

BTW it was never the question... i was asking about the "Brandy" sound ;-)
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 2:11:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:znr1111848655k@trad...
> Well, then tell then NOT to, but to get a little looser. But not too
> loose. Again, I reiterate - that's where the experience part comes in.
> You might have to record 100 tracks to get 20 that fit together the
> way you want. No magic in that, just time and effort, and the ability
> to see when you're getting there, when you're going off track, and
> when you're finished.

Ok thanks for the help. under those 50 answers there were at least 5 helpfull ones. (most of them by mike rivers)

I think i'm trying to get a harmonizer for a day to check out if this will bring the desired result.

thanks.
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 8:22:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:7Fi1e.11775$uw6.2442@trnddc06...
>
> "Ricky Hunt" <rhunt22@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:wu91e.104023$r55.91377@attbi_s52...
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
>> news:0381e.26399$oa6.17788@trnddc07...
>> >
>> > Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
>> > real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.
>> >
>>
>> I pulled up a few clips from her album and it doesn't sound stacked to me
>> either (at least by a human doubling the parts). I don't even think with
>> something Vocalign you could match it up that good.
>>
>>
>
> Well.... I was in reference to the OP's inquiry about that sort of sound,
> believing that from what I've read here, that he must be trying to do it
> all from cloned tracks without the help of mother nature's stacked parts.
>
> As for Enya... I *do* think the tracks are stacked, at least to a large
> degree.
>
> The whole concept for the 'effect' that the OP seems to be looking
> (I don't know anything about "Brandy"), is created by the lack of perfect
> accuracy. In Enya's case, she's just damn good and tends to be spot on
> nearly every time & track. I'd certainly be open to correction from
> rec/mix
> engineers who have worked on her sessions, but her stuff sounds very
> pleasantly overdubbed to me.
>
> I believe that the sound the OP is looking for requires that bit of human
> input which comes from combining multiple takes, not just multiple tracks.
>

The Brandy tracks don't sound like that to me. It might have a double low in
the background but this is a real effects type sound.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 12:59:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ricky Hunt" <rhunt22@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:65B1e.23785$fn3.10756@attbi_s01...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
> news:7Fi1e.11775$uw6.2442@trnddc06...
> >
> > "Ricky Hunt" <rhunt22@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:wu91e.104023$r55.91377@attbi_s52...
> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
> >> news:0381e.26399$oa6.17788@trnddc07...
> >> >
> >> > Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
> >> > real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I pulled up a few clips from her album and it doesn't sound stacked to me
> >> either (at least by a human doubling the parts). I don't even think with
> >> something Vocalign you could match it up that good.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Well.... I was in reference to the OP's inquiry about that sort of sound,
> > believing that from what I've read here, that he must be trying to do it
> > all from cloned tracks without the help of mother nature's stacked parts.
> >
> > As for Enya... I *do* think the tracks are stacked, at least to a large
> > degree.
> >
> > The whole concept for the 'effect' that the OP seems to be looking
> > (I don't know anything about "Brandy"), is created by the lack of perfect
> > accuracy. In Enya's case, she's just damn good and tends to be spot on
> > nearly every time & track. I'd certainly be open to correction from
> > rec/mix
> > engineers who have worked on her sessions, but her stuff sounds very
> > pleasantly overdubbed to me.
> >
> > I believe that the sound the OP is looking for requires that bit of human
> > input which comes from combining multiple takes, not just multiple tracks.
> >
>
> The Brandy tracks don't sound like that to me. It might have a double low in
> the background but this is a real effects type sound.


I guess this is one to check out... I'll see what I can find to listen to.

DM
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 3:44:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

We have done work with that sound (depends upon the artist and the
song). I would rate the importance of the items in the chain as
follows:

1. Quality of the vocalists' various textures. For instance, having a
vocalist with a natural and wonderful sounding 'airy' vocal makes
things soooooo much easier. If a vocalist does not have it she does not
have it (and very few do).

2. Quality of the vocal coach (producer, in-tune engineer, the artist
themselves, etc.). Knowing how to accent the main vocal and how and why
to stack the vocals and in what textures is very important!

3. Mic/Preamp combo. For this type of vocal, we are sometimes having
the singer at various distances from the mic on different passages. And
we usually have a set of different timbres that we are going for. As
such, I am typically using a mic/pre combo that leans towards
transparent.

OK, given the above:

1. Do a main, foreground vocal that is to run up the middle and have
relatively no editing/processing. For a more up-close and personal
feel, a mic with 'some' proximity effect is nice.
2. To taste, record many (10, 20, 30) near-identical stacks of the
desired phrases in the vocal. The talent level of the vocalist will
really come into play here! Some cannot duplicate what they just
recorded to save their lives. Others can be so close even after a 5
minutes break that the two will nearly null out if stacked out of
phase. The best vocalists will ask how identical the stack should be.
Some of the best will also suggest ways in which they can vary the
stacks (and will be able to articulate the subtleties of each take).
Also, the headphone mix for the talent is super important! To ease the
job, the singer should be able to clearly hear each of the tracks that
have been laid and differentiate them from the track currently being
laid. So, panning the tracks to where they may likely go in the mix
helps in spades. How many tracks? Experience will let you know when
enough is enough (or what to throw out later). As a side note, some
artists and producers acquire a disease in which they think they need
to add another stack just to be adding another stack. We call them
Stachiaveli (plural: Stachiavelii :-). Now, make SURE that the mic/pre
combo records exactly what you want to hear at this stage. Buildup of
unwanted frequencies happens quite quickly with 10 or more stacks! In
addition, destructively EQ'ing this many tracks (per individual track
or via busses) is not guaranteed to be satisfactory. Again, how many?
As an example, you may want 5 with a touch of pain (as compared to the
original), 3 sung more from the diaphragm, 4 that are 'airy', 4
that are a tad loose/playful and finally, 2 that are whispered with no
tone and get panned wide. Of course, this will all depend upon what you
are reaching for.
3. Throw out tracks that depart too far from the main vocal to be
usable.
4. If all goes well, at this point you have a very nice, lush set of
stacks that compliment the main vocal. If not, you really need another
vocalist or coach (or both). If all is dandy, go to step 5.
5. So, you have lush stacks but they will likely be too out-of-step
with one another (at the beginnings and endings of words). The best way
I have found of reeling them in without killing the naturally variety
is to use an Expander (it is gentler than a Noise Gate and does not
shift the end points of the words as would VocAlign). An Expander
should be used on EACH stacked track since a buss configuration in this
context would kill the purpose. The original vocal should remain
untouched. OK, tailor the settings of the Expanders so that the timing
differences between the stacked tracks cannot be heard, i.e. the
beginnings and ends of words are slightly glossed over but not smeared
per se (can explain in more detail if necessary). This also has the
side-effect of making the stacks a bit dreamy (pad-like) when heard
together as compared to the main vocal. For a more pronounced, staccato
effect (listen to "Bills, Bills, Bills" by Destiny's Child), use
a noise gate instead of an Expander (or use the Expander with full
reduction). I rarely if ever add any processing aside from EQ and
compression (no harmonizer or chorusing).
6. More than likely, even the best vocalist with her best 'airy'
will need some additive EQ in very high registers to complete it. Get a
good analog EQ and boost the whole set slightly at 20k or 30k.

BTW, 25-30 stacks may sound like overkill but there is a huge,
qualitative difference in 25 purposefully, but subtlety, varied stacks
and a single track with increased gain (or even a bunch of time-shifted
copies). In fact, the end, average gain of the stacks should not exceed
that of a doubled take.

Hope this helps.

Hassan
March 29, 2005 12:45:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hank alrich wrote:
> Enya does. <g>

Enya... Cher... Brandy...

Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 4:00:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Theodore <heytud@yahoo.com> wrote:
>hank alrich wrote:
>> Enya does. <g>
>
>Enya... Cher... Brandy...
>
>Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.

Doesn't work for Bono.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 7:05:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <d2c1k1$rmo$1@panix2.panix.com> kludge@panix.com writes:

> >Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.
>
> Doesn't work for Bono.

But Mary Ford and Patti Page disprove that theory.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 12:21:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Theodore wrote:
> >hank alrich wrote:
> >> Enya does. <g>

> >Enya... Cher... Brandy...

> >Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.

> Doesn't work for Bono.

He lacks the other key, the nook key.

--
ha
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 5:59:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Hassan Davis" <hassandavis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112082260.846123.79700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> We have done work with that sound (depends upon the artist and the
> song).


You obviously have. Great post, Hassan.

Predrag
!