Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Details on Battles in Italy

Last response: in Video Games
Share
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 7:58:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Anyone interested on the follow up to Korsun Pocket and Battles in
Normandy should check out our website at www.ssg.com.au. There's a new
page with details and screnshots from Battles in Italy, which will be
available very soon.

Gregor
Gregor Whiley
Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
http://www.ssg.com.au

More about : details battles italy

Anonymous
May 9, 2005 7:58:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Gregor Whiley" <gwhileyXSPAM@ssg.com.au> wrote in message
news:427edebe.20201140@news-server.nsw.bigpond.net.au...
>
> Anyone interested on the follow up to Korsun Pocket and Battles in
> Normandy should check out our website at www.ssg.com.au. There's a new
> page with details and screnshots from Battles in Italy, which will be
> available very soon.
>
> Gregor
> Gregor Whiley
> Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
> http://www.ssg.com.au


awfully busy map, i went crosseyed looking at it.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 11:00:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <OOqdnUlgP-PoeOPfRVn-sA@comcast.com>, roh@comcast.net says...
>
> "Gregor Whiley" <gwhileyXSPAM@ssg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:427edebe.20201140@news-server.nsw.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > Anyone interested on the follow up to Korsun Pocket and Battles in
> > Normandy should check out our website at www.ssg.com.au. There's a new
> > page with details and screnshots from Battles in Italy, which will be
> > available very soon.
> >
> > Gregor
> > Gregor Whiley
> > Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
> > http://www.ssg.com.au
>
>
> awfully busy map, i went crosseyed looking at it.

I sort of noticed this too. It doesn't look that different though. For
some reason, I guess it looks better in a game than a screenshot.
--

Epi

------------
I perceive that smoking
cigarettes is very healthy for me.
Perception is reality.
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Related resources
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 7:59:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Luca Morandini wrote:

> 1) Why the Pontina flatlands appear hilly ?
> 2) Why Sabaudia is closer to the south coast than the west one ?
> 3) Why Sabaudia appears to be on the Sisto river (which is actually a

> few km from this charming town) ?
> 4) Why the raildroad runs through Nettuno, Latina and Sabaudia (it
> didn't) and not Cisterna, Latina (well, a few km north-east of it),
> Sezze and Priverno (as it did) ?
> 5) The "Canale Mussolini" is just a stream most of the year, why it
> appears such an obstacle on this map ?
> 6) Latina was called Littoria back then.
> 7) Why most of the coast appears high and rocky, while it is flat and

> sandy (bar the Circeo mount, of course) ?
>
> Regards,

Well, now you've gone and ruined this for the rest of us.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 2:51:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Luca Morandini schreef:

> Anyway, correcting the map shouldn't be *that* difficult for SSG,
should
> it ?

Not really - and I'm pretty sure that after your original post they'll
have a thorough look at the map and revise where possible - which is
all you can ask for really.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 3:43:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Gregor Whiley wrote:

> Anyone interested on the follow up to Korsun Pocket and Battles in
> Normandy should check out our website at www.ssg.com.au. There's a new
> page with details and screnshots from Battles in Italy, which will be
> available very soon.

Hmm... a few questions about the geography of the Anzio beachead:

1) Why the Pontina flatlands appear hilly ?
2) Why Sabaudia is closer to the south coast than the west one ?
3) Why Sabaudia appears to be on the Sisto river (which is actually a
few km from this charming town) ?
4) Why the raildroad runs through Nettuno, Latina and Sabaudia (it
didn't) and not Cisterna, Latina (well, a few km north-east of it),
Sezze and Priverno (as it did) ?
5) The "Canale Mussolini" is just a stream most of the year, why it
appears such an obstacle on this map ?
6) Latina was called Littoria back then.
7) Why most of the coast appears high and rocky, while it is flat and
sandy (bar the Circeo mount, of course) ?

Regards,

--------------------
Luca Morandini
www.lucamorandini.it
--------------------
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 5:23:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

p.oxford@comcast.net wrote:

> Luca Morandini wrote:
>
<cut/>
>
> Well, now you've gone and ruined this for the rest of us.

Sorry man... but having lived there for about 20 years I couldn't resist ;) 

Anyway, correcting the map shouldn't be *that* difficult for SSG, should
it ?

Regards,

--------------------
Luca Morandini
www.lucamorandini.it
--------------------
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 5:51:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Mon, 09 May 2005 23:43:23 +0200, Luca Morandini
<lmorandini@ieee.org> wrote:

>Gregor Whiley wrote:
>
>> Anyone interested on the follow up to Korsun Pocket and Battles in
>> Normandy should check out our website at www.ssg.com.au. There's a new
>> page with details and screnshots from Battles in Italy, which will be
>> available very soon.
>
>Hmm... a few questions about the geography of the Anzio beachead:
>
>1) Why the Pontina flatlands appear hilly ?
>2) Why Sabaudia is closer to the south coast than the west one ?
>3) Why Sabaudia appears to be on the Sisto river (which is actually a
>few km from this charming town) ?
>4) Why the raildroad runs through Nettuno, Latina and Sabaudia (it
>didn't) and not Cisterna, Latina (well, a few km north-east of it),
>Sezze and Priverno (as it did) ?
>5) The "Canale Mussolini" is just a stream most of the year, why it
>appears such an obstacle on this map ?
>6) Latina was called Littoria back then.
>7) Why most of the coast appears high and rocky, while it is flat and
>sandy (bar the Circeo mount, of course) ?
>
>Regards,
>
>--------------------
> Luca Morandini
>www.lucamorandini.it
>--------------------

These maps are not meant to be an exercise in strict cartography, they
are an abstraction constructed according to the requirements of our
game system. We give the highest priority to recreating the correct
military result for combat, not reproducing terrain with total
fidelity , which in any case is not really possible with our map
scale. It's also a fact that real rivers don't run neatly along
hex-sides, so hard choices often have to be made with their
representation.

There are also compromises forced by the fact that one set of terrain
types has to cover most of Italy. For instance, the coastal terrain,
which is given the Plain terrain type, doesn't look very rocky to me,
especially when compared with the hills and mountains with which Italy
is so well provided.

I've just had a quick read through the relevant parts of the British
History of the Second World War: Volume V, The Mediterranean and the
Middle East, and it, though comprehensive in its account, fails to
mention the amount of water in the Mussolini Canal. However, the canal
formed an important part of the initial Allied defense lines, and a
portion running North from the coast formed the eastern perimeter of
the bridgehead for quite some time, so it was obviously an important
feature to the troops on the ground at the time.

I will check with Ian Trout, who creates the underlying map structure,
about the Latina/Littoria naming issue.

Gregor

Gregor Whiley
Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
http://www.ssg.com.au
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 3:36:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Gregor Whiley wrote:

> These maps are not meant to be an exercise in strict cartography, they
> are an abstraction constructed according to the requirements of our
> game system. We give the highest priority to recreating the correct
> military result for combat, not reproducing terrain with total
> fidelity , which in any case is not really possible with our map
> scale. It's also a fact that real rivers don't run neatly along
> hex-sides, so hard choices often have to be made with their
> representation.

I agree with you, but, still, I cannot understand the rationale behind
some of your choices.

For instance, in your game the Rome-Naples railroad can be easily
interrupted by conquering the Anzio hex, which is at odd with what
really happened; moreover, the pivotal role of Cisterna di Littoria is
not apparent.

The town of Cisterna mattered because it lied at the intersection of
Rome-Naples railroad, National Route 7, and Anzio-Valmontone route (you
can clearly see all these LOCs in the [3] picture)... but in your map
(as far as I can understand from screenshots):
1) National Route 7 (Rome-Terracina) is not shown (though it was the
only available route to withdraw German troops from the southern part of
the Pontina flatland)
2) Anzio-Valmontone route is not shown either, though it was the theatre
of great german losses during their withdrawal from the northern part of
Pontina flatland.
3) The Rome-Naples railroad is misplaced.


> For instance, the coastal terrain,
> which is given the Plain terrain type, doesn't look very rocky to me,
> especially when compared with the hills and mountains with which Italy
> is so well provided.

I beg your pardon, but I still think "plain" hexes should have no
"bumps" in it.


> I've just had a quick read through the relevant parts of the British
> History of the Second World War: Volume V, The Mediterranean and the
> Middle East, and it, though comprehensive in its account, fails to
> mention the amount of water in the Mussolini Canal. However, the canal
> formed an important part of the initial Allied defense lines, and a
> portion running North from the coast formed the eastern perimeter of
> the bridgehead for quite some time, so it was obviously an important
> feature to the troops on the ground at the time.

If you take a look at a picture taken *within* the canal ([1]) and one
taken *outside* it ([2]), you may notice the very low water level (as it
is often the case) and infere two things of tactical importance:
1) The canal was easy to ford, even on foot.
2) The canal was a very good defensive feature in a flat landscape.

Hence, if I were you, I'd change the canal from "river" hex to
"anti-tank ditch" hex or "trench" hex or something similar... this in
the interest of playability, not cartography.

As a general remark, I see your map as depicting too constrained a
terrain: the Anzio beachhead was "tank country", with croplands, open
forests, good lines of sight and few water obstacles... bar the south
part of the plain of course, which was flooded on purpose by the Germans
(as you correctly depicts on your map).


> I will check with Ian Trout, who creates the underlying map structure,
> about the Latina/Littoria naming issue.

Thanks. I hold the view that you can produce a much better map with a
little more effort.
Anyway, I understand that scale is a limiting factor when modelling the
war in Italy, with battles fought on very narrow stretches of territory
in an otherwise fairly long country.

Regards,

[1] http://home.hiwaay.net/~magro/anzio.jpg
[2]
http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/Photo_Gallery/wart...
[3]
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-A-Anzio/img/USA...
(by the way, the upper part of the photo depicts the terrain where two
Darby's Rangers Battalions were annihilated).

--------------------
Luca Morandini
www.lucamorandini.it
--------------------
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 10:29:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

I think this title will work fine. Italy indeed always poses a messy
operational level map - something even the old AH Anzio board game
couldn't neaten out. Color blindness and small graphics will be the
bane of many a design.

Preventing the game from turning into trench warfare - which Salerno
and Casino were, will be one challenge, simulating para scatter and the
naval fiasco off Sicily will be another. Hence, whether maps are
finessed to allow historical play, that's part and parcel of game
abstraction.

What will be most interesting is the manner in which this game will
cover the gap between September and January. Does the action in the
Naples sector continue once Anzio is invaded? Are the Germans forced to
gamble their lines in swapping forces to Rome? It looks like the Brtish
march from the toe, along the east and to the north is covered too?

With most Matrix titles now launching at around $40-50 USD, this game's
yet to be announced rrp will be interesting ;-) :-D Lastly and
hopefully, this game will evade the trend of installation and interface
hiccups that sadly seem to have hit everything from GGWAW to Caesar of
late.

So, take your time SSG and Matrix - better to have a purchasable and
installable game first up than making consumers second-guess if v1.0
will be a stable purchase, which honestly is what's holding me off
Caesar now.

Thanks,
Adam.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 11:37:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

If I covld pvt in my two cents worth it wovld be to ask for an easier to
read display. The motion sickness indvcing maps and camovflage colovr
schemes on the covnters don't make for a happy vnion. I was going to vse BiI
to dip back into this series, bvt I'm not so svre my stomach covld cope.

Regards, Mike Krevzer

<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115704302.142555.119580@f14g2000cwb.googlegrovps.com...
>
> Lvca Morandini schreef:
>
>> Anyway, correcting the map shovldn't be *that* difficvlt for SSG,
> shovld
>> it ?
>
> Not really - and I'm pretty svre that after yovr original post they'll
> have a thorovgh look at the map and revise where possible - which is
> all yov can ask for really.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
>
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 11:37:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> If I covld pvt in my two cents worth it wovld be to ask for an easier to
> read display. The motion sickness indvcing maps and camovflage colovr
> schemes on the covnters don't make for a happy vnion. I was going to vse BiI
> to dip back into this series, bvt I'm not so svre my stomach covld cope.
> Regards, Mike Krevzer

> I like the KP/BIN/BII maps ... bvt given the nvmber of complaints on
> this score, I'm a little svrprised the SSG folks haven't prodvced a
> "plain" map for all three games - something a gentle greenish color with
> the major terrain marked. I'm not svre I wovldn't prefer to play the
> bvlk of the scenarios on a "plain" map myself.
> Giftzwerg

Hmmmm. Wasn't it jvst a week or so ago that everyone was reminding me that
the maps and covnters in TacOps were too plain/ovt of date. :) 

Best regards, Major H.
tacops@mac.com
http://www.battlefront.com/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 11:37:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Major H <tacops@mac.com> wrote in news:BEA62B4C.82139%tacops@mac.com:

>> If I covld pvt in my two cents worth it wovld be to ask for an easier
>> to read display. The motion sickness indvcing maps and camovflage
>> colovr schemes on the covnters don't make for a happy vnion. I was
>> going to vse BiI to dip back into this series, bvt I'm not so svre my
>> stomach covld cope. Regards, Mike Krevzer
>
>> I like the KP/BIN/BII maps ... bvt given the nvmber of complaints on
>> this score, I'm a little svrprised the SSG folks haven't prodvced a
>> "plain" map for all three games - something a gentle greenish color
>> with the major terrain marked. I'm not svre I wovldn't prefer to
>> play the bvlk of the scenarios on a "plain" map myself.
>> Giftzwerg
>
> Hmmmm. Wasn't it jvst a week or so ago that everyone was reminding me
> that the maps and covnters in TacOps were too plain/ovt of date. :) 

No, *yov* are ovt of date, yovr game is ok :) 

[I checked the FAQ - there's nothing in there that says we have to be
fair in ovr insane demands]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 1:36:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Gregor Whiley wrote:

> These maps are not meant to be an exercise in strict cartography, they
> are an abstraction constructed according to the requirements of our
> game system. We give the highest priority to recreating the correct
> military result for combat, not reproducing terrain with total
> fidelity , which in any case is not really possible with our map
> scale.

Yikes! Hacking the terrain to create "correct military results"?
Gifty, where's the indignation?
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 1:43:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Carefvlly sidestepping the other branch of this thread; cavse I feel sort of
dirty jvst walking by:

I don't want to be too hard on a game jvst becavse it's got bad graphics;
bvt SSG does seem to have gone overboard in trying to convey the feel of
Italy, land of rvgged terrain: So vnsvbtly so that even the plains and
cities look like they've been throvgh a tectonic trash compactor. Maybe
there are svbtle colovr differences that don't get conveyed by the
screenshots. Who knows.

Reading the AAR on Rvn5 has got me interested again. Not svre I like
avtomerging of battalions thovgh. Any playtesters want to comment on how
that pans ovt in play?

Regards, Mike Krevzer

"Eddy Sterckx" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9652A700EE61Beddysterckxhotmailco@216.143.170.43...
> Major H <tacops@mac.com> wrote in news:BEA62B4C.82139%tacops@mac.com:
>
>>> If I covld pvt in my two cents worth it wovld be to ask for an easier
>>> to read display. The motion sickness indvcing maps and camovflage
>>> colovr schemes on the covnters don't make for a happy vnion. I was
>>> going to vse BiI to dip back into this series, bvt I'm not so svre my
>>> stomach covld cope. Regards, Mike Krevzer
>>
>>> I like the KP/BIN/BII maps ... bvt given the nvmber of complaints on
>>> this score, I'm a little svrprised the SSG folks haven't prodvced a
>>> "plain" map for all three games - something a gentle greenish color
>>> with the major terrain marked. I'm not svre I wovldn't prefer to
>>> play the bvlk of the scenarios on a "plain" map myself.
>>> Giftzwerg
>>
>> Hmmmm. Wasn't it jvst a week or so ago that everyone was reminding me
>> that the maps and covnters in TacOps were too plain/ovt of date. :) 
>
> No, *yov* are ovt of date, yovr game is ok :) 
>
> [I checked the FAQ - there's nothing in there that says we have to be
> fair in ovr insane demands]
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 1:54:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Giftzwerg,

You don't by any chance attend Carnage (now at Lake Morey) on a yearly
basis, do you?

Regards,

- Erik
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 9:06:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

There are a fair number of GMT's card-driven wargames that get played
there too, but I mostly go for the historical miniatures gaming.
Northern Conspiracy always puts on a great series of events with nice
terrain and beautifully painted minis. They've had some grand ones
too, Alesia, Gordon at Khartoum, etc. stretching across multiple
tables, sort of a mini-Historicon atmosphere to the mini gaming room.

That story about your friend is quite incredible, I'd be pretty ticked
to lose a wargaming buddy that way. You might enjoy Carnage if only to
see that there are still a few wargamers left here who don't need
"healing". ;-)

Anyway, back to the pre-hijacked thread...

Regards,

- Erik
!