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Drum miking question

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Anonymous
March 30, 2005 8:01:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi all.

I am purchasing a microphone set designed for recording drums. What I don't
understand is why none of the mic sets I looked at had anything specifically
for hihats. Is there a standard for miking hihats? I guess I've been spoilt
using sampled drums because there's always a seperate out for hihats (and
everything else for that matter) - I am sure however that in writeups I've
seen engineers talking about how they used a particular mic for the hihats.
I'm going for a 7 mic kit that includes kick mic, snare mic, tom mics and
two pencil condenser overheads. I' just a little worried how much
flexibility this will give me with my precious hihats!

Howard.

More about : drum miking question

Anonymous
March 30, 2005 8:01:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

H <h@productionsstudio.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I am purchasing a microphone set designed for recording drums. What I don't
>understand is why none of the mic sets I looked at had anything specifically
>for hihats. Is there a standard for miking hihats? I guess I've been spoilt
>using sampled drums because there's always a seperate out for hihats (and
>everything else for that matter) - I am sure however that in writeups I've
>seen engineers talking about how they used a particular mic for the hihats.
>I'm going for a 7 mic kit that includes kick mic, snare mic, tom mics and
>two pencil condenser overheads. I' just a little worried how much
>flexibility this will give me with my precious hihats!

The hi-hats will be in everything. Your goal will be trying to figure
out how to keep them OUT of the submix rather than how to add more.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 8:01:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <d2ef03$gi2$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> h@productionsstudio.fsnet.co.uk writes:

> I am purchasing a microphone set designed for recording drums. What I don't
> understand is why none of the mic sets I looked at had anything specifically
> for hihats.

Probably because hi-hats are always too loud anyway. The benefit to
putting a mic on the hi-hat is for "clarity" or "definition" and not
for volume or separation. I guess they figure that if you're buying a
kit of mics for the drums you're on a budget and you'll have plenty of
hi-hat in the snare and overhead mics.

> I'm going for a 7 mic kit that includes kick mic, snare mic, tom mics and
> two pencil condenser overheads. I' just a little worried how much
> flexibility this will give me with my precious hihats!

If you can't get enough hi-hat with that setup, first clean your ears,
then if you're still not happy, pick up one of the Oktava small
condensers with a pad.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Related resources
March 30, 2005 8:01:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

What he said !

And i have it figured now!! :-)

It gets real intreasting when u cant get the snare level up no more...


Sidhu




Scott Dorsey wrote:
> H <h@productionsstudio.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >I am purchasing a microphone set designed for recording drums. What
I don't
> >understand is why none of the mic sets I looked at had anything
specifically
> >for hihats. Is there a standard for miking hihats? I guess I've been
spoilt
> >using sampled drums because there's always a seperate out for hihats
(and
> >everything else for that matter) - I am sure however that in
writeups I've
> >seen engineers talking about how they used a particular mic for the
hihats.
> >I'm going for a 7 mic kit that includes kick mic, snare mic, tom
mics and
> >two pencil condenser overheads. I' just a little worried how much
> >flexibility this will give me with my precious hihats!
>
> The hi-hats will be in everything. Your goal will be trying to
figure
> out how to keep them OUT of the submix rather than how to add more.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 2:58:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:01:24 -0500, H wrote
(in article <d2ef03$gi2$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>):

> Hi all.
>
> I am purchasing a microphone set designed for recording drums. What I don't
> understand is why none of the mic sets I looked at had anything specifically
> for hihats. Is there a standard for miking hihats? I guess I've been spoilt
> using sampled drums because there's always a seperate out for hihats (and
> everything else for that matter) - I am sure however that in writeups I've
> seen engineers talking about how they used a particular mic for the hihats.
> I'm going for a 7 mic kit that includes kick mic, snare mic, tom mics and
> two pencil condenser overheads. I' just a little worried how much
> flexibility this will give me with my precious hihats!
>
> Howard.


Howard,

Lot's of folks have found that starting with the overheads, you then fill in
with a few mics instead of micing everything. In that practice, there seldom
is a hi hat mic. Instead, HH is captured mostly by the overheads.

Regards,

Ty



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 9:08:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ty Ford:

>HH is captured mostly by the overheads.

Yes, but in the case you didn't miked it, you will need it during
mixdown.
And if you miked it, you wouln't need it in the mix...
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 4:36:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The only use I've ever found for hi hat mics is to high pass them at about
4K and add only the shimmer to the recording.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:20:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ty Ford wrote:

> Instead, HH is captured mostly by the overheads.

I beg to differ.

I find that each and every drum shows up in every single microphone as
well as the guitar and bass mics' if they are in the vicinity.

Listening to all the drums in ALL the microphones and coming up with the
perfect MIX of all these microphones is what elevates the true mix
'artist' from the 'follow the numbers' guys.

(but shhhh, don't tell anyone)
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:21:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1112274496.846985.218580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> jana.luetz@gmx.de writes:

> >HH is captured mostly by the overheads.
>
> Yes, but in the case you didn't miked it, you will need it during
> mixdown.
> And if you miked it, you wouln't need it in the mix...

The solution is to set up a mic on the hi-hat, attach a cable, and
don't connect it to anything. This will make the drummer think that
you've miked his hi-hat so he'll play it really well and you'll be
able to hear plenty of it in the main mics.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:21:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> The solution is to set up a mic on the hi-hat, attach a cable, and
> don't connect it to anything. This will make the drummer think that
> you've miked his hi-hat so he'll play it really well and you'll be
> able to hear plenty of it in the main mics.

What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 9:26:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Sensor <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote:
>Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>> The solution is to set up a mic on the hi-hat, attach a cable, and
>> don't connect it to anything. This will make the drummer think that
>> you've miked his hi-hat so he'll play it really well and you'll be
>> able to hear plenty of it in the main mics.
>
>What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?

Then you'd better track it seperately because you'll never get enough
isolation to do that any other way.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 9:26:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

>>What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?
>
>
> Then you'd better track it seperately because you'll never get enough
> isolation to do that any other way.

Isolation? There will be a LOT of hi-hat in there with very little
anything else, at least at that volume.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 10:34:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Sensor <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?
>>
>> Then you'd better track it seperately because you'll never get enough
>> isolation to do that any other way.
>
>Isolation? There will be a LOT of hi-hat in there with very little
>anything else, at least at that volume.

Right, but there will also be hi-hat in the other channels as well, which
means when you put your effected track in, it's going to be drowned out.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 10:34:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 31 Mar 2005 18:34:23 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Joe Sensor <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote:
>>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?
>>>
>>> Then you'd better track it seperately because you'll never get enough
>>> isolation to do that any other way.
>>
>>Isolation? There will be a LOT of hi-hat in there with very little
>>anything else, at least at that volume.
>
>Right, but there will also be hi-hat in the other channels as well, which
>means when you put your effected track in, it's going to be drowned out.

Not if the drummer is decent. The hat doesn't *have* to be that loud.

Al
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 12:37:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3b37unF6ejijeU2@individual.net> crabcakes@emagic.net writes:

> What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?

You turn up any knob that you know you won't do anything and say to
the client (or producer) "Do you like that?"

If you want to add an effect to just the hi-hat, you're using it as
something other than a part of the drum kit and you should probably
consider recording it separately.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 12:37:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> If you want to add an effect to just the hi-hat, you're using it as
> something other than a part of the drum kit and you should probably
> consider recording it separately.

Not necessarily. Sometimes the right effect can make it sound better and
more (or less) prominent without actually changing the volume of it.
More common for snare of course, but not out of the question on any drum
or instrument.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 2:51:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

playon wrote:

> Not if the drummer is decent. The hat doesn't *have* to be that
loud. >
>
> Al

Exactly..... The horribly loud hi hat syndrone is the fault of the
player and not the engineer..... The worst is the half open thrash rock
technique. There is no way to get a good drum sound when they play that
way....And then they barely tap the toms ..... Oh well. What can you
do.

But if you've ever worked with a great R & B drummer who understands
dynamics, you can mic the hat and use it in the mix and it's a
beautiful addition.

J_West
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 7:50:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Sensor wrote:

> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>> The solution is to set up a mic on the hi-hat, attach a cable, and
>> don't connect it to anything. This will make the drummer think that
>> you've miked his hi-hat so he'll play it really well and you'll be
>> able to hear plenty of it in the main mics.
>
>
> What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?

Is this a serious question?

Hat bleeds into everything. So if you want a seperable
hihat track, it should be tracked seperately.

"I could do that, but that would be wrong" - George the
handyman, on "Newhart".
--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 7:50:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Les Cargill wrote:

>> What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?
>
>
> Is this a serious question?

Yes!

> Hat bleeds into everything. So if you want a seperable
> hihat track, it should be tracked seperately.

Huh? If you want to add an effect to JUST the high hat, how would you do
that with one of the other tracks that it bled into?
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 8:22:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Sensor wrote:

> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>>> What if you want to add an effect, to the high hat alone?
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this a serious question?
>
>
> Yes!
>
>> Hat bleeds into everything. So if you want a seperable
>> hihat track, it should be tracked seperately.
>
>
> Huh? If you want to add an effect to JUST the high hat, how would you do
> that with one of the other tracks that it bled into?
>
>

I meant play the drums parts *without* hihat, then track the hihat
part seperately, after the fact. Time domain isolation.

Again, "I could do that, but that would be Wrong".

--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 8:22:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Les Cargill wrote:


> I meant play the drums parts *without* hihat, then track the hihat part
> seperately, after the fact. Time domain isolation.
>
> Again, "I could do that, but that would be Wrong".

Of course. But this is not what I have in mind.

I routinely add reverb or other effects to just the snare. This would
not be possible without a snare mic'. And if there is enough snare
bleed, I may not even use that snare track, other than a send to the
effect. Same can go for hi-hat in some situations, though typically it
doesn't need any individual effects.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 2:25:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Thomas Thiele" <jana.luetz@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1112274496.846985.218580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Ty Ford:
>
> >HH is captured mostly by the overheads.
>
> Yes, but in the case you didn't miked it, you will need it during
> mixdown.
> And if you miked it, you wouln't need it in the mix...
>

Exactly !! LOL.

Not to mention if you want to ride the level for open hihat 'moments' during
grooves etc - it sounds lame doing it on the overheads!

Same with little flourishes here and there.

Or even if you just want to hear a little more 'stick' on the hat than you
generally get when its only coming out of the overheads.

Anyway, I suppose it depends on how detailed you want to get with the mix,
and whether nuances like that are important to you.....

Good luck!

Geoff
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 2:25:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Geoff Duncan wrote:


> Anyway, I suppose it depends on how detailed you want to get with the mix,
> and whether nuances like that are important to you.....



And options are always good. No microphone, no options.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 4:07:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <meap4117jnkm5ulaqq6el1v2es32dub1jj@4ax.com> playonAT@comcast.net writes:

> >Right, but there will also be hi-hat in the other channels as well, which
> >means when you put your effected track in, it's going to be drowned out.
>
> Not if the drummer is decent. The hat doesn't *have* to be that loud.

If the drummer is decent, he or she is part of the production.
Recording the drums would be easy and there would be no need for these
questions. If the drummer was decent and knew you wanted to put some
strange effect on the hi-hat, he'd understand what's involved and play
it separately. If the drummer was decent and the hi-hat was too loud,
when you asked him to play it softer, he could, and would.

But most people who record drummers have to record drummers that
aren't decent. Sometimes it's them.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 4:07:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3b3ottF6e42reU1@individual.net> crabcakes@emagic.net writes:

> Not necessarily. Sometimes the right effect can make it sound better and
> more (or less) prominent without actually changing the volume of it.

This can be said for anything, and occasionally it's right. But you
should recognize this and deal with it at the right time. The wrong
time is after the drums (which sound find) have been recorded and you
change your mind when mixing. If you want every option, you have to
record with that approach. But not everyone can do that (or does it
even if they can) every time.

Let's not make rules here. It's possible to put a mic close to the
hi-hat and do something with it later (or not). If you have the time,
money, tracks, and mics, there's no reason not to, but most of the
time it will go unused. History is on my side here. While most
"famous" drumers will probably have a hi-hat mic on the session, many
more drummers will not. And most of the time the recording isn't
ruined for lack of a hi-hat mic.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 4:07:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> This can be said for anything, and occasionally it's right. But you
> should recognize this and deal with it at the right time. The wrong
> time is after the drums (which sound find) have been recorded and you
> change your mind when mixing.

You can't necessarily deal with this until you hear the recorded drums
on "tape". How it sounds in the room may not be how it sounds on
playback. More options are better.

> If you want every option, you have to
> record with that approach. But not everyone can do that (or does it
> even if they can) every time.

Agreed.


> Let's not make rules here. It's possible to put a mic close to the
> hi-hat and do something with it later (or not). If you have the time,
> money, tracks, and mics, there's no reason not to, but most of the
> time it will go unused. History is on my side here. While most
> "famous" drumers will probably have a hi-hat mic on the session, many
> more drummers will not. And most of the time the recording isn't
> ruined for lack of a hi-hat mic.

Don't know what the percentage is, but you are probably right.

But, as you said, if you have the tracks available, and a spare
microphone, why not?

And don't forget, assuming the hi-hat is not already too loud from the
other tracks, this extra track gives you the ability to reposition the
hi-hat in the sound field. The purists may never want to do that, but I
am not a purist. ;) 
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 10:23:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3b5ecnF6bnfulU1@individual.net> crabcakes@emagic.net writes:

> But, as you said, if you have the tracks available, and a spare
> microphone, why not?

Because you might not have the good sense NOT to use it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 10:23:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Because you might not have the good sense NOT to use it.

You could also say that they should not have purple paint available, as
someone might not have the good sense NOT to use it. Like my neighbor,
for instance...
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 1:01:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"J_West" <johnston_west@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112338312.431799.168470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> playon wrote:
>
> > Not if the drummer is decent. The hat doesn't *have* to be that
> loud. >
> >
> > Al
>
> Exactly..... The horribly loud hi hat syndrone is the fault of the
> player and not the engineer..... The worst is the half open thrash rock
> technique. There is no way to get a good drum sound when they play that
> way....And then they barely tap the toms ..... Oh well. What can you
> do.
>
> But if you've ever worked with a great R & B drummer who understands
> dynamics, you can mic the hat and use it in the mix and it's a
> beautiful addition.
>
> J_West
>

Well , I've had some of those "Thrashy" drummers sound great - but
basically, because they understand that *they* mix the kit by how they play
it. The guys who sound great use 13" hats and barely touch them - but when
you hear it back it sounds really energetic - because the timing is great
and the hihat isn't killing the drums mix (even when you bring in a submix
which you have *crushed* with compression!!)

But your point is valid - most of 'em beat the piss out of the hats with no
concept of balance.....

Geoff
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 11:50:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3b65mgF62tlmdU1@individual.net> crabcakes@emagic.net writes:

> You could also say that they should not have purple paint available, as
> someone might not have the good sense NOT to use it. Like my neighbor,
> for instance...

I LIKE purple. But I suppose I could have said that there's no use in
miking the singer because he can't sing anyway.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 2:13:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:


> I LIKE purple.


It's ok. But not covering a large house. Matching cars, too.


> But I suppose I could have said that there's no use in
> miking the singer because he can't sing anyway.

You could always digitize them, reassembled into something that sounds
good. . Oh wait, they are already trying that. Miserably I might add.
!