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The drum-mic question, yet again

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Anonymous
April 5, 2005 11:04:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

(I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short
one.)

I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about
to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a
blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly
failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at
<http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3&...;. In other
words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless.

The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",
and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in -
whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to
say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics.

I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried
a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up
trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never
quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position
problem, though.

For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the
D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion
I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for
inside-kick or floor tom.

For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's
Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s,
4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.)

Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded
cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge-
smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta
cut.

Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just
didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position,
but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've
seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few
months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit
(which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose
between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll
sound.

Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser
MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix,
or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway),
or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people
don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the
Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits.

Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably
have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler

More about : drum mic question

Anonymous
April 5, 2005 11:04:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums
kevin
kevindoylemusic@rogers.com
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 1:11:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi Jay,

I get the following error when I try to play the demo file with the current
version of Windows Media Player 10 ( PC with WinXp SP2 ) :
C00D1199: Cannot play the file

Anyway, if the drums sound fine in the room you may want to go with a three
mic setup instead of close mic'ing.

Does the drummer play really hard, really light or fairly dynamically?

The Audio Technica ATM25 is a great internal bass drum mic in my opinion.
I've had good luck close mic'ing toms with Marshall MXL 2001p mics through a
PreSonus M80 ( and in a week or so I will test AT2020's on the toms ). I
think the Beyer M201 is a really great snare mic. Neumann TLM193's can work
well as overheads and so can Audix TR40's. A Marshall MXL 603s can work
well as a hihat mic.

Best of luck!
--
John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com

"Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cbc3ac558d825399898af@news-east.giganews.com...
> (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short
> one.)
>
> I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about
> to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a
> blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly
> failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at
> <http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3&...;. In other
> words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless.
>
> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",
> and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in -
> whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to
> say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics.
>
> I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried
> a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up
> trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never
> quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position
> problem, though.
>
> For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the
> D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion
> I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for
> inside-kick or floor tom.
>
> For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's
> Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s,
> 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.)
>
> Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded
> cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge-
> smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta
> cut.
>
> Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just
> didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position,
> but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've
> seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few
> months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit
> (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose
> between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll
> sound.
>
> Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser
> MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix,
> or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway),
> or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people
> don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the
> Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits.
>
> Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably
> have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now.
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
> Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
> http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Related resources
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 2:12:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cbc3ac558d825399898af@news-east.giganews.com...
> (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short
> one.)
>
> I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about
> to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a
> blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly
> failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at
> <http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3&...;. In other
> words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless.

I don't have much to offer, but my first question for recording drums is
always what does the room sound like? The smaller the room the easier it is
to get it "ringing" from a loud sound source, my room sounds great for
guitar but the drums still sound boxy if I don't spread around some more
absorbant materials. I've been hanging quilts and wool blankets at strategic
locations around the kit, trying to block the more direct sources of
slapback. Listening to your recording the drums sound like they have too
much of that 'small room' sound I'm talking about, and a little too much
reverb - maybe an attempt to put the drums in a larger space?


> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",
> and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in -
> whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to
> say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics.

IMHO as a drummer, I think trying to achieve isolation on the kit is
counterproductive. My personal belief is to get as much as I can from the
overheads by selection and positioning, and blend in the other mics to
reinforce the tone of the toms, kick, & snare. I tihnk of the kit as a
single instrument, instead of a collection of instruments.


> Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably
> have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now.

Make the most of what you have: play with the position of the drums in the
room, with the room dampening, mic placement, drum heads, drum tuning, even
stick choice are all a factor. I've made some fairly good sounding
recordings with mics much worse than what you're working with. (Not like
anyone's going to offer me a job, but in the final mix it worked)

Sean
April 5, 2005 2:12:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <KWw4e.29084$f%4.17014@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, sjconolly_98
@yaaho.com says...
> IMHO as a drummer, I think trying to achieve isolation on the kit is
> counterproductive. My personal belief is to get as much as I can from the
> overheads by selection and positioning, and blend in the other mics to
> reinforce the tone of the toms, kick, & snare. I tihnk of the kit as a
> single instrument, instead of a collection of instruments.
>
I tend to agree with this. I use the individual mics on the
toms to try and "tug" the particular drum into where I want it
in the spacial image. I also use that signal for effects, and
of course the bass drum is its own animal. I generally don't
try to isolate the bass drum too much, unless we're going to
use the track to trigger MIDI events.
But yes, I think a good set of overheads is important to the
best sound I get micing drums. And I've never found a need to
mic the hihat.
--
---Michael (of APP)...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/austinpowerplantmusic...
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 2:18:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jay Levitt wrote:
>
> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> recall the sizes, but ...

How big (and specifically tall) is your room?



> For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the
> D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion
> I'll pick one up.

The D112 is kind of a one-trick pony to my ears. If you're shopping,
how about an Audix D6?



> I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for
> inside-kick or floor tom.

Excellent kick mic (among so many other things.)



> Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded
> cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge-
> smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta
> cut.

There should be more than enough hat in the OH pair. Have you tried
pulling them back in front of the kit a ways?
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 4:11:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <MPG.1cbc3ac558d825399898af@news-east.giganews.com> jay+news@jay.fm writes:

> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",
> and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in -
> whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to
> say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics.

Sounds to me like you should elimiate the leakage concerns by
eliminating mics. Do the drums sound balanced (the way he's playing)
at any point in the room? Start with a mic or stereo pair there, and
then fill in the snare and kick if necessary with close mics. Try
pointing the snare mic at the shell (along a radius) rather than pointing
it downward toward the head to get it further away from the cymbals.

> Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser
> MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix,
> or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway),
> or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people
> don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the
> Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits.

Got any EV 608s or its current replacement that Scott frequently posts
about (648??). They're good for getting in close to drums and
reducing leakage from the back. Don't go out and buy something new for
this project. What mic you use isn't all that critical, but where you
put it is, and what's most critical is that the drummer understands
that he's being recorded (on the cheap) and that he might have to
cooperate with you rather than just bashing away like he does in the
bars where he normally plays.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 10:10:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Matrixmusic wrote:

> I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums

Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to
those?

--
ha
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 10:10:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Sounds to me like you should elimiate the leakage concerns by
> eliminating mics.

We have a winner, folks...


--
ha
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 10:10:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1gujlny.vmkdvq1awkecoN%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

> Mike Rivers wrote:
> > Sounds to me like you should elimiate the leakage concerns by
> > eliminating mics.
>
> We have a winner, folks...

I wondered what people would think when I read that back. I didn't
mean eliminate ALL the mics, just the ones that were superfluous,
given the player and the room.

But elimiating all the mics might not be a bad idea either.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 10:24:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:10:20 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

>Matrixmusic wrote:
>
>> I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums
>
>Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to
>those?

That's harder...

Al
April 5, 2005 10:55:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll
probably
> have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay
buy-it-now.
>
>

The snare sounded just a bit too up front to me at some parts, maybe
just turning it down a bit or compressing it a bit so the louder parts
don't stand out so much.

Mark
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 12:00:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just didn't
sound good.

Did you remember to set them to "music" as opposed to "speech". I find it
hard to believe that they couldn?t cut it, there is a reason why these are
so commonly used, simply because they are good if a little costly. Anyway it
sounds to me like there could be problem with the drummer (or his tuning) in
which case getting a decent drumsound becomes moren of a trial/error
situation which is hard to give any advice for.
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:37:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <MPG.1cbc6547b9daecb59896e1@news.freescale.net>, ra3035
@NOTfreescale.com says...
> I tend to agree with this. I use the individual mics on the
> toms to try and "tug" the particular drum into where I want it
> in the spacial image. I also use that signal for effects, and
> of course the bass drum is its own animal. I generally don't
> try to isolate the bass drum too much, unless we're going to
> use the track to trigger MIDI events.
> But yes, I think a good set of overheads is important to the
> best sound I get micing drums. And I've never found a need to
> mic the hihat.

Yes, I agree. For me, the overheads are key. I wasn't too clear about
my role in the post; for this project, a student from the production
class (that's me) plays producer while someone from the recording class
plays engineer. She's eager and has a good ear, but likes to experiment
with lots of mics just to see what happens. (Hey, that's what school is
for.) So we don't necessarily use all the tracks, or much of them if we
do. The hi-hat track is really only useful to "tug" the light clicks
during the verses, f'rinstance. If we retrack these at my studio, I'll
be taking on somewhat of an engineer role, if only because I'm the one
that needs to go buy enough mics to mic a kit, so I get to decide what
mics we use.

I think our choice of overheads is really key. I like the thought of
the kit as an instrument. And the fact that I can't definitively answer
"does it sound good in the room" tells me I need to do more homework on
*what I'm micing* than on what mics I should buy to redo it! Perhaps
using "earring overheads" instead of a wide spaced pair would give us a
better angle at the toms without the cymbals getting in the way.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:41:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <znr1112708634k@trad>, mrivers@d-and-d.com says...
> Got any EV 608s or its current replacement that Scott frequently posts
> about (648??). They're good for getting in close to drums and
> reducing leakage from the back. Don't go out and buy something new for
> this project.

Well, it wouldn't be just for this project; it's that I've been begging
off from ever recording drums (and, therefore, from most of the projects
that could come my way!) because I don't have the mics, and because it's
too small a room to get isolation. But the drums are the only acoustic
instrument, so this is the perfect first-drum-kit project for me. Gotta
get started some time.

I assume you mean the Sennheiser 608, a clip-mic supercardioid? That
looks neat.

I'll give the shell miking a try. I've been doing straight-ahead "point
the mic at the head" stuff.




--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:43:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <KWw4e.29084$f%4.17014@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, sjconolly_98
@yaaho.com says...
> I don't have much to offer, but my first question for recording drums is
> always what does the room sound like? The smaller the room the easier it is
> to get it "ringing" from a loud sound source, my room sounds great for
> guitar but the drums still sound boxy if I don't spread around some more
> absorbant materials. I've been hanging quilts and wool blankets at strategic
> locations around the kit, trying to block the more direct sources of
> slapback. Listening to your recording the drums sound like they have too
> much of that 'small room' sound I'm talking about, and a little too much
> reverb - maybe an attempt to put the drums in a larger space?

Yeah, Berklee's studio B is just not a good room for rock drums. In
fact, I'm not sure if we HAVE a good room for rock drums. Here at home,
I have two rooms, each with high ceilings, one treated, one just
naturally funky. I don't have a drum set, so I don't actually know what
the rooms sound like, but the general opinion is that I ought to be able
to get a really good sound there. We'll see.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 3:03:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3bfvjvF6g3e8bU1@individual.net>, kurt@nv.net says...
> > The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> > recall the sizes, but ...
>
> How big (and specifically tall) is your room?

Studio B (where the great demo and the lousy new basics were done) is,
I'm guessing, 40 x 20, with ceilings sloping from maybe 10 to 12 feet,
maybe a foot higher.

One of my rooms is 20 x 15 with a cathedral to about 17 feet, but is
radically trapped and diffused. The other, which is probably more
exciting from a drums perspective, is about 15 x 15, has a 24-foot pine-
beadboard ceiling, and opens to a loft on the second floor.

> > For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the
> > D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion
> > I'll pick one up.
>
> The D112 is kind of a one-trick pony to my ears. If you're shopping,
> how about an Audix D6?

I'll check into it.. know any good recordings of it? I hate buying mics
by description, but we have no Audix's to try; what makes you like it
better than the D112 or B52? To me, the D112 is good for a really
thumpy kick, the B52 is really tubby and round, and the sub-kick is good
to impress people while you use another mic in the mix.

> > I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for
> > inside-kick or floor tom.
>
> Excellent kick mic (among so many other things.)

> > Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded
> > cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge-
> > smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta
> > cut.
>
> There should be more than enough hat in the OH pair. Have you tried
> pulling them back in front of the kit a ways?

Yeah; it's just so hard to get a good balance of cymbals. Maybe that's
in the performance, eh?

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 3:03:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1gujlml.mc1wc10tv386N%walkinay@thegrid.net>,
walkinay@thegrid.net says...
> > I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums
>
> Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to
> those?

I'll be happy to send you a PDF on pedagogy.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 3:18:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Neil Henderson wrote:
>
> if you've got a C-451, I can attest that I've never
> recorded a less-than splendid hat sound with that mic (dunno how different
> the newer ones are from the older ones - never used the "B" model... is it
> safe to assume they're relatively close?).

Probably not.
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 12:30:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

1st thing is the source...do the drums themselves sound good
2nd the player - does he really make his drums sing or does he just hit
things with sticks
3rd the room - have you experimented with drum placement in the room is
there a sweet spot?

You have access to almost any conceivable combinations of mics by the sounds
of it so I'm leaning towards addressing numbers 1-3 first...

Once you're confident #'s 1-3 have been dealt with follow Mike R's micing
suggestions...listen to the kit from all over the place...find that spot in
space where they seem to shine and put a mic there, which one is your
choice. Stand by the drummer listen from his point of view and I'm sure
you'll find a sweet spot or two...put a mic or two there. Go into the
control room and listen, what's missing, what's too upfront and address
those problems with close mics.

Address those areas in the same fashion as above...listen, find the sweet
spot and put a mic there. Than back to the control room and listen again...

It ain't rocket science but it can take some time .

Don

"Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cbc3ac558d825399898af@news-east.giganews.com...
> (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short
> one.)
>
> I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about
> to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a
> blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly
> failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at
> <http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3&...;. In other
> words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless.
>
> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",
> and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in -
> whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to
> say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics.
>
> I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried
> a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up
> trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never
> quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position
> problem, though.
>
> For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the
> D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion
> I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for
> inside-kick or floor tom.
>
> For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's
> Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s,
> 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.)
>
> Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded
> cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge-
> smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta
> cut.
>
> Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just
> didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position,
> but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've
> seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few
> months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit
> (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose
> between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll
> sound.
>
> Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser
> MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix,
> or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway),
> or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people
> don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the
> Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits.
>
> Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably
> have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now.
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
> Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
> http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 1:02:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <RYSdndSoVMPnS87fRVn-vQ@rogers.com>, dnafe@magma.ca says...
> 1st thing is the source...do the drums themselves sound good
> 2nd the player - does he really make his drums sing or does he just hit
> things with sticks
> 3rd the room - have you experimented with drum placement in the room is
> there a sweet spot?
>
> You have access to almost any conceivable combinations of mics by the sounds
> of it so I'm leaning towards addressing numbers 1-3 first...

Yeah... I was half asleep when I wrote the post. There are really two
parts to it, and I really conflated them:

1. Because we didn't deal with #1 or #3 (I think #2 is mostly there), I
need to rerecord drums. I know how important they are, somehow we blew
the session anyway, it happens. Studio B has no sweet spot for rock
drums. It has only less-sour spots.

2. Because I need to rerecord drums, and have no more studio time at
school, and have a great studio at home, and have been meaning to start
tracking drums one of these days, I need (want!) to buy a set of drum
mics, and if they happen to solve some particular problems I ran into
with loose patterns, well, wouldn't that be nice?

I think I have some good recommendations now, so I'm going to see if I
can (somehow) audition some of the ones I haven't heard yet, such as the
Audix.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 1:32:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cbda7f1de256add9898b6@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <RYSdndSoVMPnS87fRVn-vQ@rogers.com>, dnafe@magma.ca says...
>> 1st thing is the source...do the drums themselves sound good
>> 2nd the player - does he really make his drums sing or does he just hit
>> things with sticks
>> 3rd the room - have you experimented with drum placement in the room is
>> there a sweet spot?
>>
>> You have access to almost any conceivable combinations of mics by the
>> sounds
>> of it so I'm leaning towards addressing numbers 1-3 first...
>
> Yeah... I was half asleep when I wrote the post. There are really two
> parts to it, and I really conflated them:
>
> 1. Because we didn't deal with #1 or #3 (I think #2 is mostly there), I
> need to rerecord drums. I know how important they are, somehow we blew
> the session anyway, it happens. Studio B has no sweet spot for rock
> drums. It has only less-sour spots.
>
> 2. Because I need to rerecord drums, and have no more studio time at
> school, and have a great studio at home, and have been meaning to start
> tracking drums one of these days, I need (want!) to buy a set of drum
> mics, and if they happen to solve some particular problems I ran into
> with loose patterns, well, wouldn't that be nice?
>
> I think I have some good recommendations now, so I'm going to see if I
> can (somehow) audition some of the ones I haven't heard yet, such as the
> Audix.

If I may make a suggestion on two additional mics...look at the Josephson
C42's as overheads...two good overheads in conjuction with a fairly good
kick mic (Audix Shure AKG Sennheiser) and a 57 should get you a good basic 4
mic setup to which you could add spot mics as needed...The josephsons aren't
KM84's but they do the job well

YMMV

Don

>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
> Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
> http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:12:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <MPG.1cbc3ac558d825399898af@news-east.giganews.com>,
Jay Levitt <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote:

> I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about
> to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a
> blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly
> failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at
> <http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3&...;. In other
> words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless.
>
> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",
> and was the most problematic.

especially with deep snares, micing from the side often works.
Depending on placement and pattern, you may get the HH as well.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:21:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <MPG.1cbd16724c8b3ea29898b2@news-east.giganews.com> jay+news@jay.fm writes:

> > Got any EV 608s or its current replacement that Scott frequently posts
> > about (648??).

> I assume you mean the Sennheiser 608, a clip-mic supercardioid? That
> looks neat.

Nope, N/D468:
http://www.electrovoice.com/Electrovoice3/products.nsf/...

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 4:24:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Producing Drums


Drums are the fundamental component of music; "The Bed Track" as we
call it. All other instruments are recorded to the rhythms of the drum
performance. All instruments eventually trace their roots back to
Africa where rhythm was essential to the spirituality of the tribal
culture. To this day we notice the rhythm of the drum from the native
peoples of Canada, to a dance hall, to someone just tapping their feet
to a beat. We are all intertwined with rhythm.

Recording drums is one of the most challenging situations you will ever
come across in the studio. The microphones you use and how you place
them is important in the initial preparation. A tuned kit with new
heads is the standard operating procedure for all drummers. No amount
of EQ or signal processing can resurrect a cardboard sounding drum kit
after it's been recorded. The room you are recording in is very
critical also. Rock prod/eng's prefer large live rooms to capture the
ambience of the kit. As for pop drummers, they are often located in
booths or small rooms that are reasonably dry sounding so you can get a
present sound.

The Kick Drum

For the kick drum, you should use a dynamic mic - the bigger the
diaphragm, the better low-end pick-up. I've used RE-20's and
AKG-112's. The way I usually mic a kick drum is to stick the mic
inside the kick drum (I always remove the front head) about 3-6 inches
in front the front head. That's a good place to start - you can move
the mic around and find the best sounding location. I usually stick a
pillow or blankets against the rear of the drum head to minimize ring.
You'll get more attack the closer the mic is to the beater - you'll get
more overtones farther away. On certain occasions we use two mics. A
small diaphragm dynamic (421) close to the beater to get the attack of
the bass drum. The other mic, a large diaphragm, further away from the
head to pickup the low end of the resonance of the bass drum. This
allows you to have the flexibility to control the mix of the attack and
resonance. With the close mic you can EQ from 2-4Khz to get the
attack. Anything higher than 4Khz will just make the attack sound
thin. With the close mic try to avoid aiming it directly at the
beater. This prevents dramatic changes in the attack sound of the bass
drum. If you place the mic slightly off axis and EQ the mid range
(more than you would if the mic were on axis) the attack sound of the
bass drum will be more even. With the large diaphragm mic place it
closer to front of the drum (where the head has been removed) this will
allow you to get more of the low end resonance. If using a large
diaphragm condenser make sure to pad it down (use pad on mic) and place
a Kleenex over the microphone to prevent the capsule from being
overloaded by wind. With EQing the bottom end you need to know if you
would like the bottom end to be heard or felt. EQing between 30-60Hz
will allow you to "feel" the bottom end only on large speaker
systems. If you need to hear the bottom end EQ between 60-100Hz. This
will allow you to "hear" the attack of the low end on smaller
speaker systems. The bass drum also produces a lot of low mid range
frequencies that tend to not relate to themselves. This usually occurs
between 300-600Hz. Be prepared to remove some of these frequencies,
which will allow the bass drum to sound tighter and punchier.

As in any situation using two mics you need to be prepared for phasing
problems. This problem can be solved by flipping the phase on one of
the mics or moving the position of one of the mics.


The Snare Drum

The best way to capture a great snare sound is by close miking it with
a dynamic cardioid-pattern mic that can handle a high SPL and keep
leakage to a minimum. The legendary SM-57 is an excellent mic for the
snare, it is the choice of many professional engineers, and it's what I
use myself.

The classic approach for miking the snare is to place the mic 1-3
inches over the snare rim opposite the drummer and 1-3 inches above the
top drum head. The mic should be at about a 35-degree angle downward. I
usually try to also angle the mic inward (away from the hi-hats) to
avoid leakage from the hi-hats. You can also mic the bottom snare head
for some added top end but remember to reverse the phase. If the
drummer is playing with brushes try using a small diaphragm condenser
cardioid microphone. The condenser will have a larger pickup pattern
to capture more of the performance. With EQ the snare drum has three
basic regions: Low end 100Hz (depending on depth of snare drum), mid
range (crack) 3-5 kHz and top end 10 kHz and above. In rock, snare
drums you tend to desire a lot of the mid range/crack and low end. In
Pop you tend to desire more of the top end over the mid range.






The Toms

It's best to mic each tom separately. Again, small diaphragm
dynamic mics work the best, and SM-57's and Sennheiser 421's are a good
choice for their tight pick-up pattern and high SPL. Small diaphragm
condenser mics are great for getting more top end but remember to
insert a pad so the mics don't overload and be prepared for cymbal
leakage.

The best approach to miking toms is to place the mic 4-6 inches above
the drumhead at about a 45-degree angle over the head. If you pick up a
lot of overtones, a little duct tape in the right spots will kill the
overtones, or if you have a noise gate you can gate out the overtones.
I always move the mics around to capture the right balance of attack
and resonance. In EQing toms there are four different ranges: Low end
80-120Hz (depending on size of tom) Low Mid range 300-600Hz, High Mid
range 2-4kHz and Top end 10kHz and above. In an average EQ setting on a
tom you would see a boost in the Low end, High Mid range and High end
as well as a cut in the Low Mid range.

The Overheads

The drum overhead mics are really supposed to capture the overall sound
of the drums, not just the cymbals. Condenser mics such as U-87s and
AKG 414s are the first choice for overheads, and one popular miking
technique is with a spaced pair of mics (on boom stands) mounted 2-3
feet above the drums -the right mic pointed at the right cymbals, the
left mic pointed at the left cymbals. Remember that when raising
overheads the acoustics of the room will factor into the sonic
equation. When mixing direct drum mics with the overheads this most
likely causes acoustical phasing problems, this happens in the low
frequency range. The low frequencies in phase with the snare drum mic
have a tendency to be out of phase when the overheads are mixed in, due
to the wavelength of low end frequencies. When checking for phasing
problems on drums assign all mics to a mono listening position. It is
hard to detect phasing problems with mics panned to different positions
in the stereo image. If you notice phasing problems just reverse the
phase button on the input strip or move the mic positions. EQ
overheads if you need a brighter sound and insert shelving curves in
the high end try to avoid rolling off the low end, for this will make
your snare and toms sound thin. E.g. +3dB @10Khz (shelf).




The Hi-hat

Use a small diaphragm condenser mic like an AKG 451 placed about
6" above the high-hats, pointed straight down at the center of the
top hat. Sometimes high-hats have a tendency to produce unwanted
midrange frequencies around 1.5 kHz which tend to make the high-hat
sound trashy. Omitting some of this frequency range will allow the
high-hat to sound more defined in the high end.


Room Mics

Use at least 2 omni mics of the same model. Place them in the centre
of the room to get an even room sound. This often requires the use of
hard surface baffles between the room mics and the drum kit. This
removes the initial direct sound in the pickup allowing the
engineer/producer to utilize more of the room resonance.


Drum Compression

Drum compressing and limiting is often used to control dynamic problems
and/or create a desired effect. When using a live performance you tend
to get excessive dynamics. For example: when the drummer hits a kick
drum and crash cymbal on the downbeat of a chorus, even though the
transient is of short time duration it will limit you into how much
level you can translate to a CD in mastering. This transient causes
the drums to separate themselves from the rest of the elements in the
mix. Because the duration of the transient is so short it is hard to
correct this dynamic problem through manual fader riding. A good
solution for this is to bus all the drums to two tracks and bring this
two track stereo sub-mix of the drums back into more inputs. At this
stage you can insert limiting to control the extension of the
transient. You will need to incorporate an attack time of less then
1millisecond due to the transient nature of the drums. The release
time should also be very fast 5-10ms so the only transient is affected
and the rest of the performance is left untouched. A limiting ratio of
10:1 or higher will suffice. Remember to allow headroom so some amount
of the transient will pass through, rather than being hard limited.
This is accomplished by first setting a limiting ratio, with a fast
attack time and a fast release time. Next, set the threshold to a
setting where the limited audio information is approximately 2-3ms in
duration for the nature of drum transients is a very fast attack and a
very fast release with little duration in between. The goal here is to
limit only this fast transient without affecting the resonance of the
drum sound.

Another advantageous use in dynamic control is getting your drums to
sound punchier. This is achieved by first eliminating the random
transients and then inserting compression with a ratio 4:1 to 8:1. The
attack time should be any where from 20-50 ms which allows the louder
attacks of sound to pass through unaffected. Once the attack is
cleared the compressor will kick in, lowering the sustain part of the
drum signal. Next set the release time (1-200ms) so the sustain part
of the signal is compressed and decays until the approach of the next
transient comp/limit. When you are sub-mixing drums to a stereo bus
remember to insert the stereo link function on the comp/limiter.

In dealing with dynamic control on separate drums allow yourself to
create a certain characteristics to achieve great sounds. With snare
drum a common problem is getting a good attack but with no sustain
which causes the drum to sound inconsistent and weak. The problem here
is that even though the attack of the drum is heard on a consistent
basis the length and level of the sustain changes randomly. In dealing
with this problem split the snare drum over two input channels. Over
the first input try to maximize the transient quality of the snare drum
by utilizing transparent limiting and EQ in the mid range and high end.
On the other channel first gate the signal so all you hear is the
snare drum. Next insert a limiter with a very fast attack and very
fast release time. The goal here is to limit the attack of the signal
heavily. This allows the sustain to be consistent in level and adds
more length in duration. To add more body to the sound, EQ in the low
mid range and low end. Now mix in this signal with the more transient
snare drum signal which will allow you to add in more body to the snare
drum that will make it sound bigger and more consistent. In effect,
you are decreasing the dynamic range between the level of the transient
nature of the drum and the sustain properties of the drum.

Room Microphones

Use two large diaphragm condensers of the same model placed at an even
distance from each other and closest walls. If the room is 36' wide
place the mics 12' from the walls to get maximum diffusion. If the
room is 48' deep place the mics 18' from the walls. The biggest
problem with room miking is the noticeable delay between the audio from
the close mics and the original audio arriving to the room mics
(diagram A). The solution is to remove the direct signal from the drums
from entering the room mics (diagram B). This will allow the room mics
to only pick up diffused early reflections and the room reverb,
allowing you to mix it in at a higher level without any noticeable
flam.
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 5:05:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Matrixmusic wrote:
> Producing Drums
> Drums are the fundamental component of music; "The Bed Track"



Again?
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 7:17:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cbd1b6d6a66c3c69898b4@news-east.giganews.com...
>
> Yeah; it's just so hard to get a good balance of cymbals. Maybe that's
> in the performance, eh?
>


Bingo.


Geoff
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 10:05:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

playon wrote:

> (hank alrich) wrote:

> >Matrixmusic wrote:

> >> I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums

> >Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to
> >those?

> That's harder...

On the other hand, if I want to recode my drums from 16 bits to 32,
maybe Kev's tome is in order.

--
ha
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 10:05:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1gulfwo.1yutota17dci7dN%walkinay@thegrid.net>,
walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) wrote:

> playon wrote:
>
> > (hank alrich) wrote:
>
> > >Matrixmusic wrote:
>
> > >> I'll Be happy to send you a PDF on recoding drums
>
> > >Why not just focus on his relevant questions and reply directly to
> > >those?
>
> > That's harder...
>
> On the other hand, if I want to recode my drums from 16 bits to 32,
> maybe Kev's tome is in order.
>
> --
> ha


Let thoes amogn us who haev never made a tyop cast teh frist stoen..

-Jya
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 6:57:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jay Levitt wrote:
> (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short

> one.)
>
> I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm
about
> to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a
> blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly
> failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at
> <http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3&...;. In other
> words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless.
>
> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I
don't
> recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",

> and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in -
> whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to

> say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom
mics.
>
> I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had
tried
> a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up
> trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never
> quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a
position
> problem, though.
>
> For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked
the
> D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better"
suggestion
> I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for

> inside-kick or floor tom.
>
> For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's
> Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room.
(TC30s,
> 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.)
>
> Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded
> cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge-
> smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta
> cut.
>
> Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just
> didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be
position,
> but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've

> seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few
> months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit

> (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose
> between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll

> sound.
>
> Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward
Sennheiser
> MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the
Audix,
> or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head
anyway),
> or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people
> don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the
> Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits.
>
> Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll
probably
> have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay
buy-it-now.

The words uttely failing to capture the drums, sounds like phase
problems to me. Start with one track and then systematically check
every poissibly option with flipping the ploarity. You will be
surprised at how big a difference flipping something like the overheads
can make. The kick and snare get bigger and the toms with become round
like the should be.

As far as cymbal leakage, positioning shouldnt't be too much of a
problem. With an eight inch deep sanre, you've probably got a rock
drummer who's proud of how hard he hits the drums. I'd bet his sole
income is not from playing drums, certianly not from recording them if
that's the case. Ask him, beg him, force him to play with lighter
sticks and lighter cymbals if you can. That will help balance out the
kit quite a bit. You can ask him and explain to him how balancing the
kit is important. but one the tpae is rolling he'll go back to playing
how he's used to feeling it. That's kind of improtant too - you do want
him to be playing from feel. Lighter stick will allow that while
getting some of the results you need.
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 3:20:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Just flip the phase Kurt
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:27:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Matrixmusic" <kevindoylemusic@rogers.com> wrote in message news:1113243653.046569.105900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> Just flip the phase Kurt


Just tell people where they can get your book, Kevin. ;-)


DM
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 11:15:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

It's not a book, just a collection of rough notes I did for friends!

Thank you David

Kevin
kevindoylemusic@rogers.com
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 4:22:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jay Levitt wrote:
> (I apologize for the long post. I did not have time to write a short
> one.)
>
> I've been using my home studio for vocals for a few years, and I'm about
> to take the leap to drums next week; I'm re-recording a song for a
> blues-rock band, and during our basics session yesterday we utterly
> failed to capture the drums. The original demo is at
> <http://www.jay.fm/files/projects/voodoo-man-better.mp3&...;. In other
> words, my great selection of LDCs has just become useless.
>
> The drummer has a four-piece kit with hi-hat, crash and ride. I don't
> recall the sizes, but the snare is a metal shell and looked to be 8",
> and was the most problematic. He plays his cymbals VERY close in -
> whack the crash hard and it just might hit the rack tom. Needless to
> say, this caused all sorts of leakage issues on the snare and tom mics.
>
> I figure on a beta 57 and/or SM57 for the snare. The engineer had tried
> a beta87a (a vocal mic, to me!), and it sounded awful; we ended up
> trying both an MD421 and a SM57 in multiple top positions but never
> quite got the right sound - no air. I think that's gotta be a position
> problem, though.
>
> For the kick, we tried a Beta 52 and a D112 on the kick, and I liked the
> D112, so unless someone has a strong "like-that-but-better" suggestion
> I'll pick one up. I also just picked up an RE20 that I could use for
> inside-kick or floor tom.
>
> For overheads, I'll probably put up my 414-XLII's and the engineer's
> Earthworks SROs (TC20Ks) and see which one works for this room. (TC30s,
> 4051s, and 4011s are the go-to overheads at Berklee.)
>
> Hi-hat's a bit tougher. We tried my SM81 but the hat just sounded
> cheap. The drummer goes from tip-of-the-stick in the verse to edge-
> smashing in the chorus. Suggestions there? C451B? The hat's gotta
> cut.
>
> Toms: MD421s are the obvious choice, but we used them and they just
> didn't sound good. Too washed-out. That obviously could be position,
> but it could also be the close-in cymbals and the wide pattern. I've
> seen recommendations here for 441s, and Scott put in the word a few
> months back for the EV 468... without auditioning these each on a kit
> (which I don't own), I'm not really sure of the best way to choose
> between. Vocal mics I can sing into and get SOME idea of how they'll
> sound.
>
> Also, at Berklee, our mic lockers are heavily biased toward Sennheiser
> MD's, some EV, and the usual SM57s. I've never heard any of the Audix,
> or most of the AT line (which I can't keep straight in my head anyway),
> or any of the Neumann small condensors (which apparently most people
> don't like the modern versions of), or Beyers, or or the rest of the
> Sennheisers, or, or, etc. So we fall into habits.
>
> Thoughts, suggestions? I need to record this weekend, so it'll probably
> have to be currently-made gear unless I get lucky on an eBay buy-it-now.
>

Honestly, I believe you're over-thinking this.

I tend to like the "less is more" approach.

Put some overheads up, mic up the kick and maybe the snare, then use two same type LDC's as "room"
mics about six to eight feet in front of the kit (if possible).

Blend until you have the "air" you seek.

I think you'll find this or a variation of this approach very appealing once you understand you
don't need to mic up so much stuff.

Remember, many early jazz albums were done with very few mics. They set the combo up in the main
studio and put a mic in front of each of them and then let them wail. We still consider many of
these kinds of recordings incredible and classic.

--fletch
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:52:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Matrixmusic wrote:

> For the kick drum, you should use a dynamic mic - the bigger the
> diaphragm, the better low-end pick-up.

You come on with this misinformation _again_?

--
ha
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:56:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Matrixmusic <kevindoylemusic@rogers.com> wrote:

> It's not a book, just a collection of rough notes I did for friends!

No matter - if you put it out there with false statements, expect them
to get noticed.

--
ha
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 4:06:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jay Levitt wrote:

> Yeah; it's just so hard to get a good balance of cymbals. Maybe
that's
> in the performance, eh?

I rarely use a hihat mic becuase there's almost always too much of it.

Yesterday I recorded Charley Drayton and he brought in these massive 17
inch hihats and they would have been lost wihtout a hihat mic. Some of
the balance is in the recording and mixing, but far more is in the
performance.
!