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- Upgrading to Gina3G; should I throw the Gina20 away?

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Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:16:36 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Granted, it sounds 100 times better than any 24 bit Creative card... but
does that even matter to any potential buyers?

I'm upgrading because I want the XLR connections and midi functionality of
the 3G model (and, well, the 24 bits). The Gina20 has 1/4" and no midi
socket.

I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
Gina20 away?
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:58:34 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:D 3bu2r$kap$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
| Should I just throw the
| Gina20 away?

I wouldn't. There are some on eBay with starting bids over $100US. You might
be able to get some coin for it.

Interestingly enough, one of the Gina 20s on eBay has a picture of a cartoon
turntable for its image. Down at the bottom of the page, the image is finally
correct, but now lists it as "thermostat for auction". Maybe it has uses of
which you are not yet aware!
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 2:57:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:16:36 -0400, Mike Schmidt wrote:

[snip]
>I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
>3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
>Gina20 away?

You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
computer.
You may either use the control panel of Windows to switch between the
sound cards or you may select it from within you application if that
allows for. I use Adobe Audition and can select different devices for
edit mode and for multitrack mode. As well I can select a recording
device independend of the playback device.

Norbert
Related resources
April 11, 2005 3:21:04 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike,

I'd be interested in your Gina20. Shoot me an email if you'd like to
sell it: zbert@alaska.net

thanks,

Albert
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 4:41:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn <NorbertHahn@gmx.net>
wrote:

>You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
>outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
>computer.

But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
have them?
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 5:57:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Laurence Payne" <lp@laurenceNOSPAMpaynr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0cej51tkfn0f6sefml00c8gsp8fanp92ij@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn <NorbertHahn@gmx.net>
> wrote:
>
>>You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
>>outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
>>computer.
>
> But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
> use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
> have them?

Especially if they're running at different bitrates, I would think (one is
20 bit, the other 24).
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 5:59:09 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Clarke" <itsclarke@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:p eGdnY6gAZnyGMTfRVn-tA@wtccommunications.ca...
>
> "Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:D 3bu2r$kap$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> | Should I just throw the
> | Gina20 away?
>
> I wouldn't. There are some on eBay with starting bids over $100US. You
> might
> be able to get some coin for it.
>
> Interestingly enough, one of the Gina 20s on eBay has a picture of a
> cartoon
> turntable for its image. Down at the bottom of the page, the image is
> finally
> correct, but now lists it as "thermostat for auction". Maybe it has uses
> of
> which you are not yet aware!

Heh.

Good point about EBay. Never tried it. Maybe it's time I did.
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 10:34:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:D 3d3jp$jsg$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> "Laurence Payne" <lp@laurenceNOSPAMpaynr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:0cej51tkfn0f6sefml00c8gsp8fanp92ij@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn <NorbertHahn@gmx.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
> >>outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
> >>computer.
> >
> > But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
> > use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
> > have them?
>
> Especially if they're running at different bitrates, I would think (one is
> 20 bit, the other 24).

Probably not an issue, since a 20 bit signal is actually a 24 bit signal
with the last four bits set to 0.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 12:57:59 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Why not find a kid in your area that's passionate about recording, but can't
afford a decent card? You'll make his/her millenium!

Bill Ruys.

"Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:D 3bu2r$kap$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>
> Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
> for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
> remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.
>
> Granted, it sounds 100 times better than any 24 bit Creative card... but
> does that even matter to any potential buyers?
>
> I'm upgrading because I want the XLR connections and midi functionality of
> the 3G model (and, well, the 24 bits). The Gina20 has 1/4" and no midi
> socket.
>
> I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
> 3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
> Gina20 away?
>
>
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 12:58:00 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bill Ruys" <bill.ruys@nospam.siliconaudio.co.nz> wrote in message
news:frg6e.17529$1S4.1762787@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Why not find a kid in your area that's passionate about recording, but
> can't afford a decent card? You'll make his/her millenium!

That kid's going to say "20 bit? My Creative Audigy can do 24-bit! I don't
want your archaic 1997 piece of hardware!"

And I'm going to feel stupid.

And there will be uncomfortable tension in the air until one of us changes
the subject.

You want to put me through that? What kid today can appreciate the value of
an Echo card?
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 12:58:01 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:
> "Bill Ruys" <bill.ruys@nospam.siliconaudio.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:frg6e.17529$1S4.1762787@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
>>Why not find a kid in your area that's passionate about recording, but
>>can't afford a decent card? You'll make his/her millenium!
>
>
> That kid's going to say "20 bit? My Creative Audigy can do 24-bit! I don't
> want your archaic 1997 piece of hardware!"
>
> And I'm going to feel stupid.

Tell him that you heard here that the low order 4 bits (and
probably the low order 6 to 8) of his Audigy are random bits
not related to the signal.

No A/D delivers 24 honest bits because no analog front end
to a converter has input noise anywhere close to the -144 dB
necessasary to make them all meaningful. Even in theory
that would take a cryogenically cooled converter and front end.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
April 11, 2005 12:58:02 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:D 3dcfj017ed@enews3.newsguy.com...
>
> No A/D delivers 24 honest bits because no analog front end to a converter
> has input noise anywhere close to the -144 dB necessasary to make them all
> meaningful. Even in theory that would take a cryogenically cooled
> converter and front end.
>
>
> Bob
> --

You mean I'm needlessly killing that extra 8 bits when I record @24 with my
Delta?
April 11, 2005 5:58:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:
> "Norbert Hahn" <NorbertHahn@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:D 8hl51ploj0akk4ebaeg9bm1jsfokm0ntt@4ax.com...
> > "Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
> >>
> >>Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
mean..
> >>for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
groups, it
> >>remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.
> >

Mike,

My email didn't come thru in my previous post. If interested in selling
your Gina20, call me at (907)586-3488.

Albert
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 11:14:11 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

BobF wrote:

> You mean I'm needlessly killing that extra 8 bits when I record @24 with my
> Delta?

No; not quite sure how you got that from what I said.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:41:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Laurence Payne <lp@laurenceNOSPAMpaynr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn <NorbertHahn@gmx.net>
>wrote:
>
>>You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
>>outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
>>computer.
>
>But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
>use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
>have them?

All Echo Audio cards can be synched externally. If you have two of
them you may select one as master and the other as slave - unless
you are recording from a digital source. In that case, the source
must be the master.

Norbert
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:41:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Norbert Hahn wrote:
> Laurence Payne <lp@laurenceNOSPAMpaynr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn
>> <NorbertHahn@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its
8
>>> outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
>>> computer.
>>
>> But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
>> use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
>> have them?
>
> All Echo Audio cards can be synched externally. If you have two of
> them you may select one as master and the other as slave - unless
> you are recording from a digital source. In that case, the source
> must be the master.

I know how to synch a Gina with lots of things - via its SP/DIF input.
However, its sister-card Darla lacked a digital input, so synching it
with some external source could be a little challenging.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:16 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

>I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>
>Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
>for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
>remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.

For input, expect one bit less to faithfully caputer all room noise.

Norbert
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:17 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Norbert Hahn" <NorbertHahn@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:D 8hl51ploj0akk4ebaeg9bm1jsfokm0ntt@4ax.com...
> "Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>>
>>Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
>>for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
>>remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.
>
> Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
> 114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
> 18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.
>
> For input, expect one bit less to faithfully caputer all room noise.
>
> Norbert

No idea what any of this means or what it amounts to at the end, but thanks
anyway :) 

It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see other
thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price range.

I'm looking at the Firewire 410 (m-audio). What say you?
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:17 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Norbert Hahn wrote:
> "Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>>
>> Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
>> mean.. for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
>> groups, it remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.
>
> Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
> 114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
> 18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.

No way was the Gina20 even close to 19 bits.

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/gina/index.htm suggests that on a
good day it was 16 bits in or out.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:18 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:

> It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see other
> thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
> question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price range.

Hey Mike,

First off the Nvidia chip usually plays nice with Echo products. That said I
would look at the following:

Do you have the NV Firewall on? If so turn it off for now. Then try the Gina
again.

Have you reseated the card in another slot? Look in your Asus manual for the
shared PCI slots, you could have a conflict there. The Asus has the new PCI
Express architecture along side the regular PCI slots that could cause some
problems for the Echo if it shares a slot.

You also could look at the on board S/Pdif and make sure both Gina's and the
ASUS are set to identical clocks.

I also hope you aren't using the bootable overclocking feature that is included
in this board.

The Bludgeon methods: You might also uninstall the Gina3G, then disable the
on-board AL audio, reboot, then reinstall the Gina3G. Once things are running
then I might risk enabling the on board audio once again...but only if you
really need it.

In all honesty you have a gamers board there, and not one that is best suited
for audio work.
Oddly enough, or perhaps not...Audio likes simple but fast architecture. The
more gook in the system, the less likely you have clean installs.

Anyway...try those if you haven't already.

PapaNate
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:18 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:KrednajlXP31fcffRVn-1A@comcast.com...
> Norbert Hahn wrote:
>> "Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>>>
>>> Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
>>> mean.. for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
>>> groups, it remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.
>>
>> Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
>> 114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
>> 18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.
>
> No way was the Gina20 even close to 19 bits.
>
> http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/gina/index.htm suggests that on a
> good day it was 16 bits in or out.

Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?
April 12, 2005 12:45:18 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:

>
> It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see other
> thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
> question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price range.
>

Are you sure about that? Is this the 64 bit Athlon board? I know
someone who had a problem with a Mia using an Asus 8V board.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:18 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:

> No idea what any of this means or what it amounts to at the end, but thanks
> anyway :) 

Forget how many bits it says it converts. Instead find the
dynamic range specification in dB and divide by six. That
will tell you about how many of those bits are meaningful.
The rest might as well not be there at all.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:19 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"kitekrazy" <kite@krazy.com> wrote in message
news:115lvd6ka66ukfe@corp.supernews.com...
> Mike Schmidt wrote:
>
>> It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see
>> other thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard)
>> so the question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same
>> price range.
>>
>
> Are you sure about that? Is this the 64 bit Athlon board? I know someone
> who had a problem with a Mia using an Asus 8V board.

They shouldn't have any problems with the 8V line, if you look at the
compatible motherboards list on the Echo website. Mine, however, isn't
listed as compatible. Mine is 8N, not 8V.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 12:45:19 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:KrednajlXP31fcffRVn-1A@comcast.com...
>
>>Norbert Hahn wrote:
>>
>>>"Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>>>>
>>>>Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
>>>>mean.. for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
>>>>groups, it remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.
>>>
>>>Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
>>>114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
>>>18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.
>>
>>No way was the Gina20 even close to 19 bits.
>>
>>http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/gina/index.htm suggests that on a
>>good day it was 16 bits in or out.
>
>
> Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?

You get 24 bits from the converter but only 114/6=19 of them
contain information about the signal. The rest of them are
junk bits that are random (if you are lucky.)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
April 12, 2005 12:45:20 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:

>
> They shouldn't have any problems with the 8V line, if you look at the
> compatible motherboards list on the Echo website. Mine, however, isn't
> listed as compatible. Mine is 8N, not 8V.
>

If this is your reference http://www.echoaudio.com/Support/PC/AMD.php
it is out dated material.

I know a guy a Northern Sound Source who has an Echo Mia and it would
not work with the VIA800.

What both boards have in common is they are for the Athlon 64 Processors.

There wasn't a problem with nForce or Via Chipsets with XP processors.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 1:35:50 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Papanate" <nospamagain@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:425AD7EA.97A5E8E1@nc.rr.com...
> Mike Schmidt wrote:
>
>> It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see
>> other
>> thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
>> question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price
>> range.
>
> Hey Mike,
>
> First off the Nvidia chip usually plays nice with Echo products. That said
> I
> would look at the following:
>
> Do you have the NV Firewall on? If so turn it off for now. Then try the
> Gina
> again.

It was never installed from the MB CD.

> Have you reseated the card in another slot? Look in your Asus manual for
> the
> shared PCI slots, you could have a conflict there. The Asus has the new
> PCI
> Express architecture along side the regular PCI slots that could cause
> some
> problems for the Echo if it shares a slot.

I tried it in slot 1, and again in slot 2.

> You also could look at the on board S/Pdif and make sure both Gina's and
> the
> ASUS are set to identical clocks.

Never touched s/pdif or clocks before, wouldn't know how to do this.

> I also hope you aren't using the bootable overclocking feature that is
> included
> in this board.

Heck no.

> The Bludgeon methods: You might also uninstall the Gina3G, then disable
> the
> on-board AL audio, reboot, then reinstall the Gina3G. Once things are
> running
> then I might risk enabling the on board audio once again...but only if you
> really need it.

Tried it. Disabled AC'97, re-installed Gina.. installation went flawlessly,
but XP continued to ignore the Gina in Sound / Audio Devices (Control
Panel). So did Sonar. Only the Device Manager sees it, and reports it as
working fine (note that loading the Gina Console also produces an error).

> In all honesty you have a gamers board there, and not one that is best
> suited
> for audio work.

Too late. ;) 
ยจ
> Anyway...try those if you haven't already.

I guess it's now official, then. They're not compatible.
April 12, 2005 2:03:43 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Papanate wrote:
>
>
> Mike Schmidt wrote:
>
>> The only thing I haven't tried is updating the Bios to the latest beta
>> (I am
>> using the latest official release, 1006).
>
> From the 3G manual:
> /PureWave mode completely bypasses the Windows kernel mixer to deliver
> your audio data directly to the hardware./
>
> This may be a dumb question but I am going to ask...have you started
> Sonar and looked to see if the card is recognized there?
>
> PapaNate
>

That may be it. The drivers may be in PureWave mode by default.

I emailed Scott Reams who builds Athlon 64 systems:

One of my more recent customers is using an nForce3 system with an Echo
Layla 3G. Works fine. I've had previous customers using Echo's Mia
without issue on nForce boards.

(Ted would be all over this thread)
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 3:05:29 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:D 3fbd3024sj@enews2.newsguy.com...
>
> Mike Schmidt wrote:
>>
>> Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?
>
> You get 24 bits from the converter but only 114/6=19 of them contain
> information about the signal. The rest of them are junk bits that are
> random (if you are lucky.)

So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?

What's the point, then?
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 3:07:55 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pat Farrell wrote:
> Bob Cain wrote:
>
>> Forget how many bits it says it converts. Instead find the dynamic
>> range specification in dB and divide by six. That will tell you about
>> how many of those bits are meaningful. The rest might as well not be
>> there at all.
>
>
> And while we're talking about bringing a little sanity into it....
>
> There is next to zero chance that more than 18 bits of signal
> exist anywhere that it makes any difference.
>
> Quiet studios are about 35 dB.
> Normal living rooms are about 50 or 60dB.

But there is a real audible difference between the
correlated noise of rooms and studios and the uncorrelated
hiss of converters. We seem much more tolerant of the
correlated noise. Dunno how that translates into dB
figures, if it does at all, but I think that you need more
bits than the studio ambient noise would indicate you do.

The value of the higher number of bits is, as has been
stated here often, only in recording where you want a lot of
room above the noise floor for headroom and in processing to
help ameliorate the computational accumulation of noise.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 3:14:38 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sue Morton" <867-5309@domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:CMG6e.653$J12.648@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Are you able to select the Gina as your preferred playback and recording
> device in Control Panel, sound and audio? Or is this where you are not
> finding it listed.

That's precisely where it won't show up. :)  That, and Sonar itself.

It's in the Device Manager and listed as fully-functioning, though.

> If you open your volume control in windows systray, and go to Options ->
> Properties, is the Gina one of the mixer devices you can choose?

No. :(  In fact, since I disabled the AC97 to try installing the Gina as the
/only/ device (as Papa suggested elsewhere in this thread) Windows now has
/no/ sound devices to output from... my computer beeps when there's a sound
event, and the volume icon in the system tray is no longer there.

If I switch the AC97 back on in Bios, though, it'll come back... as the only
available device.

> If device manager is working fine, it should be compatible with your mobo.

You'd think so! :)  And yet...

> Open system management and look at IRQ conflicts, see if the Gina is
> sharing an IRQ with anything.

Not a big expert in IRQ matters, but ok.. where do I find "System
Management"?

> That's usually what is solved by moving it to a different slot. But if
> you have ACPI turned on in the bios,
> moving it to a different slot won't matter.

It might be turned on. What is it? What do I lose by turning it off?
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 3:40:01 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:
> "Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
> news:D 3fbd3024sj@enews2.newsguy.com...
>
>>Mike Schmidt wrote:
>>
>>>Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?
>>
>>You get 24 bits from the converter but only 114/6=19 of them contain
>>information about the signal. The rest of them are junk bits that are
>>random (if you are lucky.)
>
>
> So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?
>
> What's the point, then?

Does 19 = 16 today? :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 6:44:13 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In news:D 3fb62024ju@enews2.newsguy.com the killer robot Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> grabbed the controls of the spaceship
cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...

>> No idea what any of this means or what it amounts to at the end, but
>> thanks anyway :) 
>
> Forget how many bits it says it converts. Instead find the
> dynamic range specification in dB and divide by six. That
> will tell you about how many of those bits are meaningful.
> The rest might as well not be there at all.

You might also try using your ears. Either it sounds good or it doesn't.

Of course the crossover point between the two is totally subjective. ;) 

--
Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to reply by email.
_______ _____ ___ _____ ____
/ ___/ / / __/ |/ / |/ / _ )/ __ \
/ (_ / /__/ _// / / _ / /_/ /
\___/____/___/_/|_/_/|_/____/\____/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennbo These go to eleven
Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo
Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 7:03:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:N-WdnSKLtpuafcffRVn-2Q@comcast.com...
> Norbert Hahn wrote:
> > Laurence Payne <lp@laurenceNOSPAMpaynr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> I know how to synch a Gina with lots of things - via its SP/DIF input.
> However, its sister-card Darla lacked a digital input, so synching it
> with some external source could be a little challenging.
>
>

True but all the Echo cards I've worked with have an internal sync jack as
well, so you can sync multiple Echo cards on a single computer. Having said
that, I've never done it, so I don't know how well it works. But they all
should have come with a small sync cable to connect two cards.

As for the different bit depths, this should also not matter than much, as
long as the sample rates are the same. The 3G cards can have sample rates
much higher than the 20 bit Echo products. As long as the software is
communicating via the card's driver at the same sample rate and bit depth,
all should be fine.

To answer the original poster's question, NO don't throw away your card.
;-))

Sell it on eBay, or keep it and drop it into another older computer, and you
can use it for extra stuff, or as a back-up, or software synths, effects
box, etc......
--
Richard B. Ingraham
RBI Computers and Audio
http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 7:04:58 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:D 3bu2r$kap$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>

> I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
> 3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
> Gina20 away?
>

I have a trash can in my office here, you can throw it into if you really
want to throw it away. ;-))


--
Richard B. Ingraham
RBI Computers and Audio
http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com
>
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 7:25:39 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:

> So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?
> What's the point, then?

The point to some people is that 24 bit sounds better and has a little more
headroom.
None of the specs matter as it is up to your ears whether you like the way
it sounds.

Personally I like 24/48.

PapaNate
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 7:25:40 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Papanate wrote:
> Mike Schmidt wrote:
>
>
>>So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?
>>What's the point, then?
>
>
> The point to some people is that 24 bit sounds better and has a little more
> headroom.
> None of the specs matter as it is up to your ears whether you like the way
> it sounds.
>

They matter a lot if you are recording and want headroom
above the noise floor so that you can apply gain later
without putting that noise in your ears.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 7:28:11 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In news:D 3fdtu$ud9$1@domitilla.aioe.org the killer robot "Mike Schmidt"
<nospam@nospam.com> grabbed the controls of the spaceship cakewalk.audio
and pressed these buttons...

> So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?

Hehe. I am. <g>

--
Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to reply by email.
_______ _____ ___ _____ ____
/ ___/ / / __/ |/ / |/ / _ )/ __ \
/ (_ / /__/ _// / / _ / /_/ /
\___/____/___/_/|_/_/|_/____/\____/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennbo These go to eleven
Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo
Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 1:59:14 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:D 3fhv1$1i7$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> "Sue Morton" <867-5309@domain.invalid> wrote in message
> news:CMG6e.653$J12.648@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>> If device manager is working fine, it should be compatible with your
>> mobo. Open system management and look at IRQ conflicts, see if the Gina
>> is
>> sharing an IRQ with anything. That's usually what is solved by moving it
>> to a different slot. But if you have ACPI turned on in the bios, moving
>> it to a different slot won't matter.
>> --
>> Sue Morton
>
> I went in the Bios despite not really knowing my way around there (I
> usually
> leave default values).
>
> I looked for ACPI references, and found that I have ACPI options of S1,
> S3,
> or S1&S3. Right now, it's set to S1&S3.
>
> I also have ACPI APIC, which is enabled. No idea what that is.
>
> Additionally, it seems the "boot" graphic device was set to PCI. The only
> other option was PCIe. Since my video card is PCIe, I switched it to PCIe.
>
> I then went to PCI management, which was set at Auto. I switched it to
> manual to see what it would let me do... it opens a door to all the IRQs
> available. By default in manual mode, they all seem to be going to "PCI".
> The whole lot of them (at least a dozen). I didn't change anything.
>
> I tried rebooting with the PCIe boot, no change. I tried just switching
> the
> automatic resource config to manual without actually changing what the
> IRQ's
> are assigned to (all PCI)... no change.
>
> Again, the Device Manager reports the Gina3G as fully functional. Even
> going
> in-depth into its properties reveals fully functional MIDI drivers and
> everything else. But Windows still can't see it anywhere but in the device
> manager. Even the Echo Console doesn't see it, and reports an error when I
> try loading it.

So that's it? No one has anything else to suggest? The Gina3G and the Asus
A8N-SLI Deluxe just won't play together?
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 2:20:48 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain wrote:
> Pat Farrell wrote:
>> Bob Cain wrote:
>>
>>> Forget how many bits it says it converts. Instead find the
dynamic
>>> range specification in dB and divide by six. That will tell you
>>> about how many of those bits are meaningful. The rest might as
well
>>> not be there at all.
>>
>>
>> And while we're talking about bringing a little sanity into it....
>>
>> There is next to zero chance that more than 18 bits of signal
>> exist anywhere that it makes any difference.
>>
>> Quiet studios are about 35 dB.
>> Normal living rooms are about 50 or 60dB.
>
> But there is a real audible difference between the
> correlated noise of rooms and studios and the uncorrelated
> hiss of converters.

Agreed.

>We seem much more tolerant of the
> correlated noise.

I wouldn't say that. If the spectral content is similar, the
uncorrelated noise is more likely to be heard less.

Thing is, convertor noise is likely to be white or pink, while the
room noise is more likely to be red or brown. Red or brown noise has
more attenuation of the range where the ear is most sensitive.

> Dunno how that translates into dB
> figures, if it does at all, but I think that you need more
> bits than the studio ambient noise would indicate you do.

Agreed that its not an apples-to-apples comparison. However with
modern relatively inexpensive equipment pulling 100 dB dynamic range
figures, and studios and performance spaces stuck below 80 dB dynamic
range, its still not an apples to apples comparison.

BTW 80 db is generous. Most live recordings have 65 dB dynamic range
or worse while the quieter studio recordings top out in the mid-70s.
One problem with multi-mic recordings is that every mic picks up
another copy of the ambient noise, which gets added up in the console.
Low frequency noise tends to predominate, so much of the summed noise
is correlated. That means that it adds up as scalars instead of random
vectors.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 2:25:56 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:KrednajlXP31fcffRVn-1A@comcast.com...
>> Norbert Hahn wrote:
>>> "Mike Schmidt" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.
>>>>
>>>> Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20?
I
>>>> mean.. for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other
such
>>>> groups, it remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit
now.
>>>
>>> Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
>>> 114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
>>> 18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.
>>
>> No way was the Gina20 even close to 19 bits.
>>
>> http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/gina/index.htm suggests that on
a
>> good day it was 16 bits in or out.
>
> Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?

Read my lips - there never have been any true 24 bit audio interfaces
or converters. At least none that weren't swimming in liquid nitrogen
or helium or some such. Probably out of your price range, mine too!
;-)

See the other post about dividing the unweighted dynamic range by 6 to
get the actual real world bit depth of an audio interface.

Here's some practical examples:

An audio interface with 100 dB unweighted dynamic range has just under
17 bits of resolution.

An audio interface with 110 dB unweighted dynamic range has just over
18 bits of resolution.

An audio interface with 120 dB unweighted dynamic range has 20 bits
of resolution.

There ain't a whole lot much past 120 dB.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 3:56:28 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain wrote:
> Pat Farrell wrote:
>> Bob Cain wrote:
>> And while we're talking about bringing a little sanity into it....
>>
>> There is next to zero chance that more than 18 bits of signal
>> exist anywhere that it makes any difference.
>>
>> Quiet studios are about 35 dB.
>> Normal living rooms are about 50 or 60dB.
>
>
> But there is a real audible difference between the correlated noise of
> rooms and studios and the uncorrelated hiss of converters. We seem much
> more tolerant of the correlated noise. Dunno how that translates into
> dB figures, if it does at all, but I think that you need more bits than
> the studio ambient noise would indicate you do.
>
> The value of the higher number of bits is, as has been stated here
> often, only in recording where you want a lot of room above the noise
> floor for headroom and in processing to help ameliorate the
> computational accumulation of noise.


I am not arguing that there is zero value in more bits.
I am saying that there is no practical reason to think that
you have 96 dB of music in your signal. As others have posted,
you are lucky to get 80dB.

The point of all this is to make music. Great music
on quality 16 bit convertors is way better than mediocre
music on 24 bits.

It is too easy to lose sight of the goal.



--
Pat Farrell pfarrell@website.domain
PRC Recording http://www.pfarrell.com/prc/
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 4:57:43 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain wrote:

> They matter a lot if you are recording and want headroom
> above the noise floor so that you can apply gain later
> without putting that noise in your ears.

I disagree in the context of what was being asked.

PapaNate
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 5:09:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Paul Stamler" <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Probably not an issue, since a 20 bit signal is actually a 24 bit
> signal with the last four bits set to 0.

No, in this case it would be a 20 bit signal created by hacking off the
last four bits by truncation.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 5:35:24 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pat Farrell" <pfarrell@nospam.use.userid.for.domain> wrote in message
news:1113321411.7a4e949688ce641de85e2f2d12d7f993@teranews...
> Bob Cain wrote:
>> But there is a real audible difference between the correlated noise of
>> rooms and studios and the uncorrelated hiss of converters. We seem much
>> more tolerant of the correlated noise. Dunno how that translates into dB
>> figures, if it does at all, but I think that you need more bits than the
>> studio ambient noise would indicate you do.
>>
>> The value of the higher number of bits is, as has been stated here often,
>> only in recording where you want a lot of room above the noise floor for
>> headroom and in processing to help ameliorate the computational
>> accumulation of noise.
>
> I am not arguing that there is zero value in more bits.
> I am saying that there is no practical reason to think that
> you have 96 dB of music in your signal. As others have posted,
> you are lucky to get 80dB.
>
> The point of all this is to make music. Great music
> on quality 16 bit convertors is way better than mediocre
> music on 24 bits.
>
> It is too easy to lose sight of the goal.

True, but you're kind of changing the subject here to avoid the main issue.
:) 

Your analogy is like saying you're better off doing 90 mph in a Ford Escort
than 20 mph in a Jaguar because you don't know how to use a stick.

While true, it doesn't change the fact that the Jaguar is better built, and
can optimally go much faster than the Escort when used the way it's supposed
to.

So if someone is asking if there's more value in more bits, they're not
necessarily adding "if the person using them is a fool" to the question.
They're just asking if there's more value to more bits, and if the answer is
yes, then it's simply yes. :) 
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 6:11:00 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jon J. Yeager" wrote:

> So that's it? No one has anything else to suggest? The Gina3G and the Asus
> A8N-SLI Deluxe just won't play together?

It's not that simple. I'll bet dollars to donuts that if I could get into his
configuration I could get it working in no time. On the surface there are not
any issues with either device. But Mike does have something going on, I just
can't tell from way over here.

PapaNate
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 6:47:26 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:
> "Pat Farrell" <pfarrell@nospam.use.userid.for.domain> wrote in message
>>I am not arguing that there is zero value in more bits.
>>I am saying that there is no practical reason to think that
>>you have 96 dB of music in your signal. As others have posted,
>>you are lucky to get 80dB.
>>
>>The point of all this is to make music. Great music
>>on quality 16 bit convertors is way better than mediocre
>>music on 24 bits.
>

> Your analogy is like saying you're better off doing 90 mph in a Ford Escort
> than 20 mph in a Jaguar because you don't know how to use a stick.
> So if someone is asking if there's more value in more bits, they're not
> necessarily adding "if the person using them is a fool" to the question.
> They're just asking if there's more value to more bits, and if the answer is
> yes, then it's simply yes. :) 

I do not believe it is either simple or just yes.

There is value to more bits of signal.
There is zero value to more random bits unless
you are explicitly using dither.

In marketing, "mine is bigger" sells. It does not
mean that it actually makes a difference.

I'm stepping out, this is becoming theological



--
Pat Farrell pfarrell@website.domain
PRC Recording http://www.pfarrell.com/prc/
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 7:08:20 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.general,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Schmidt wrote:
>
> Your analogy is like saying you're better off doing 90 mph in a Ford Escort
> than 20 mph in a Jaguar because you don't know how to use a stick.
> So if someone is asking if there's more value in more bits, they're not
> necessarily adding "if the person using them is a fool" to the question.
> They're just asking if there's more value to more bits, and if the answer is
> yes, then it's simply yes. :) 

If you're limited to driving in 20 mph zones, though, there may not be
a substantial performance difference between an Escort and a Jaguar,
which is the real point.

And a 16-bit converter that sounds good will beat a 24-bit converter that
sounds bad. Dynamic range is not everything. These days it's not even
a very important thing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 8:27:37 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The entity known as Mike Schmidt, posted:

> I did move it back to slot 1, and now it's sharing IRQ 16 with the TI
> OHCI 1394 Host Controller, whatever that is.

If nobody has yet suggested it, I would suggest that you *disable* in the
BIOS all onboard peripherials that you aren't using. IOW, if you aren't
using any serial port devices, then disable both serail ports in the
BIOS. If you aren't using the parallel port for a printer, then disable
it. You can usually free up a ton of resources by turning off the built
in stuff on your motherboard that isn't being used. Plug-n-play will see
all the resources and re-assign everything differently, and will
frequently, un-cork a problem.


--
Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to Reply by email

_______ _____ ___ _____ ____
/ ___/ / / __/ |/ / |/ / _ )/ __ \
/ (_ / /__/ _// / / _ / /_/ /
\___/____/___/_/|_/_/|_/____/\____/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennbo These go to eleven
Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo
Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 8:27:38 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Glennbo" <vdrumsYourHeadFromYourAss@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96367493A1C88BrownShoesDontMakeIt@151.164.30.44...
> The entity known as Mike Schmidt, posted:
>
>> I did move it back to slot 1, and now it's sharing IRQ 16 with the TI
>> OHCI 1394 Host Controller, whatever that is.
>
> If nobody has yet suggested it, I would suggest that you *disable* in the
> BIOS all onboard peripherials that you aren't using. IOW, if you aren't
> using any serial port devices, then disable both serail ports in the
> BIOS. If you aren't using the parallel port for a printer, then disable
> it. You can usually free up a ton of resources by turning off the built
> in stuff on your motherboard that isn't being used. Plug-n-play will see
> all the resources and re-assign everything differently, and will
> frequently, un-cork a problem.

Yeah, I do that with every new computer. For instance, RAID is disabled. And
until I got an IDE burner, IDE was disabled (only SATA was on). I also have
our company's network admin look over my bios to turn off everything that's
unnecessary (he even turned off Plug n Play).

Not that turning it on helped when I tried it.
!