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Rock and Roll - Stick a Fork in It ?

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Anonymous
April 12, 2005 8:20:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The PBS News Hour last night featured a Clarence Page Essay on the
state of Rock and Roll.......
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/jan-june05/page_4-11...

If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may
have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain
no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ??

More about : rock roll stick fork

Anonymous
April 13, 2005 12:02:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

and how much rap and "R&B" ( i laugh at that description) do I listen
to?



absolutely zilch.


sorry, its not dead.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 2:26:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

How old are you???

The kids (the ones who are supposed to be into r&r) haven't bought a CD
or anything else that gets charted in years. But they are downloading
it and creating it like crazy. Here in LA there are a dozen rehearsal
complexes within a few miles of my studio. 9 out of 10 rooms are
filled with 19 year olds rockin their butts off.
Related resources
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 2:53:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

J_West wrote:
> The PBS News Hour last night featured a Clarence Page Essay on the
> state of Rock and Roll.......
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/jan-june05/page_4-11...
>
> If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may
> have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain
> no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ??
>

For a genre based on three chords I think it had a pretty damn good run!

Jonny Durango
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 3:06:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hollywood_steve wrote:
> How old are you???
>
> The kids (the ones who are supposed to be into r&r) haven't bought a
CD
> or anything else that gets charted in years. But they are
downloading
> it and creating it like crazy. Here in LA there are a dozen
rehearsal
> complexes within a few miles of my studio. 9 out of 10 rooms are
> filled with 19 year olds rockin their butts off.


Well that's fine but R & R is quickly becoming a sub genre like Jazz
and Blues. Not good or bad, just the way it is... And I didn't write
the essay. Clarence Page did. I just happen to agree with him.

Most inner city young kids don't even know who Nirvana was, much less
Zeppelin etc....... But they do seem to know the Beatles?
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 5:11:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

J_West wrote:

>
> Most inner city young kids don't even know who Nirvana was, much less
> Zeppelin etc....... But they do seem to know the Beatles?
>

Wow, that is something. They don't own a radio?
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 6:17:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Yes they are listening to Radio and according to Clarence Page's essay
........"Rock is disappearing from the airwaves of stations across the
country".
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 7:01:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<<< "But hey, the charts gots more plastic jugs than your average
family
dairy farm. "
>>>>


hehehe....... some plastic buns too.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:08:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1113348004.660185.228030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> johnston_west@hotmail.com writes:

> If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may
> have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain
> no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ??

Well, today (April 12) was the bazillionth anniversary of the
recording date for Shake Rattle and Roll by Bill Haley and the Comets,
a record that some hisorians credit for putting rock'n'roll on the
map.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:33:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Trevor de Clercq wrote:
> Every genre is based on three chords.

Actually, I suspect the naysayers' contempt for rap and R&B might be a
bit less vitriolic if those 2nd and 3rd chords ever showed up. But I
wouldn't hold my breath.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:52:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

J_West wrote:

> As you may have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really
> contain no Roll and Roll music

But hey, the charts gots more plastic jugs than your average family
dairy farm.

--
ha
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:54:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

This is new news? I thought it was showing it's age in about 71-72 or
so. By 76 the ceremonial fork was stuck in it.
later,
m
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 12:54:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Every genre is based on three chords.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

Jonny Durango wrote:
> J_West wrote:
>
>> The PBS News Hour last night featured a Clarence Page Essay on the
>> state of Rock and Roll.......
>> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/jan-june05/page_4-11...
>>
>> If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may
>> have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain
>> no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ??
>>
>
> For a genre based on three chords I think it had a pretty damn good run!
>
> Jonny Durango
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 1:54:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

J_West wrote:
> Yes they are listening to Radio and according to Clarence Page's essay
> ......."Rock is disappearing from the airwaves of stations across the
> country".
>


Hmm, not disappearing from the airwaves around here. Or anywhere else I
have been.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 1:54:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Sensor wrote:
> J_West wrote:
>
>> Yes they are listening to Radio and according to Clarence Page's essay
>> ......."Rock is disappearing from the airwaves of stations across the
>> country".
>>
>
>
> Hmm, not disappearing from the airwaves around here. Or anywhere else I
> have been.
>
Just for the hell of it I did a quick google on "top 40" and as of
4/11/2005 I spotted 3 that could be considered Rock.

Green Day - I didn't say *Good* rock

Melissa Etheridge doing 'Cry Baby" which I assume is a cover of Janis J

Nine Inch Nails

So to misquote Frank Zappa ' It isn't dead, It just smells funny'.


Bob
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 1:57:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Buster Mudd wrote:

> Trevor de Clercq wrote:
>
>>Every genre is based on three chords.
>
>
> Actually, I suspect the naysayers' contempt for rap and R&B might be a
> bit less vitriolic if those 2nd and 3rd chords ever showed up. But I
> wouldn't hold my breath.
>

Exactly.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 3:32:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

There are often three chords in rap and R&B songs. What are you talking
about? Do you actually listen to rap and R&B? The chords do change.
The chords change a lot in R&B usually, less so in rap. But rap is more
of a riff based genre much like the more riff based rock songs (or any
other riff based music).

Conversely, classical music, from the baroque (and earlier) through to
the 20th century has many pieces and entire styles based solely around
three chords or fewer.

Having contempt for an entire genre (any genre) of music is terribly
myopic from a cultural, aesthetic, and musical standpoint, as well as
being definitely limiting from a professional recording standpoint.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

Buster Mudd wrote:
> Trevor de Clercq wrote:
>
>>Every genre is based on three chords.
>
>
> Actually, I suspect the naysayers' contempt for rap and R&B might be a
> bit less vitriolic if those 2nd and 3rd chords ever showed up. But I
> wouldn't hold my breath.
>
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 4:04:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 12 Apr 2005 16:20:04 -0700, "J_West" <johnston_west@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>The PBS News Hour last night featured a Clarence Page Essay on the
>state of Rock and Roll.......
>http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/jan-june05/page_4-11...
>
>If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may
>have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain
>no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ??

Screw the charts... if you get out of the house once and awhile, R & R
is alive and well in beer joints all over America...

Al
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 4:05:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 12 Apr 2005 23:06:18 -0700, "J_West" <johnston_west@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>hollywood_steve wrote:
>> How old are you???
>>
>> The kids (the ones who are supposed to be into r&r) haven't bought a
>CD
>> or anything else that gets charted in years. But they are
>downloading
>> it and creating it like crazy. Here in LA there are a dozen
>rehearsal
>> complexes within a few miles of my studio. 9 out of 10 rooms are
>> filled with 19 year olds rockin their butts off.
>
>
>Well that's fine but R & R is quickly becoming a sub genre like Jazz
>and Blues.

R & R started out as "sub genre". The only reason it dominated for
awhile was because of demographics, baby boomers & all that...

Al
April 13, 2005 7:03:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"J_West" <johnston_west@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1113372378.119649.13250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Most inner city young kids don't even know who Nirvana was, much less
> Zeppelin etc....... But they do seem to know the Beatles?
>


Don't know Nirvana? Where do you live? That's not been my experience here
in California in San Francisco, San Jose, Sacramento or the Fresno area-
there are large groups of kids who are way into Nirvana, Zep, Beatles,
Stones, 80s New Order & Cure, etc and into modern rockers like Queens of
the Stone Age and the White Stripes. Walk into a mall on a weekend and take
a gander at all those skinny kids with the black pants and white belts. Go
to Guitar Center on a Saturday and listen to 4 different renditions of
Nirvana songs and a rendition of Stairway to Heaven going on at the same
time. I think rock is still very much alive, but just not seeing record
sales due to used records and internet downloads.

On the other hand, I have talked to a couple teenagers who consider rock old
people's music, and by rock, they're talking about bands like the Vines &
Hives, who are very much young bands. So go figure! ;^)
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 8:27:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/13/05 11:03 AM, in article
rxa7e.1729$t85.898@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com, "JM" <jasonm76@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>... Walk into a mall on a weekend and take
> a gander at all those skinny kids with the black pants and white belts. Go
> to Guitar Center on a Saturday and listen to 4 different renditions of
> Nirvana songs and a rendition of Stairway to Heaven going on at the same
> time.

Was killing a lunchtime looking at a Fender Showmaster at the GC and in the
Enclosed Room Of Real Expensive Stuff was a 20ish guy working through
PINBALL WIZARD trying amps.

We're looking at a body of work... Style of pop/folk music... That's only
now getting a perspective on itself. It's all one to a significant degree,
and indeed as a genre it couldn;t be identifiable if it didin;t.

Heard a thing on the radio today that was a cleanStrat intro like someone
who 'didn't 'get it' would come up with trying to emulate LITTLE WING, that
then fell thru the floor into a typical Plodding Loud Guywhiner rock tune.

Influences everywhere are being redigested. The only reason it doesn┬╣t get
respct (and deservedly so) is that unlike any past century's musical genre
with mass distribution and money appeal, it is predominatly produced by
incompetant untrained uneducated musicians and as such, nobody PLAYING the
genre at 20 yrs old has a clue as to what they're doing until they've been
at it qnother 15 years and hgd a chace to randomly discover the source
material and THEN get a clue about what the heck they were copying and why
it worked. It's Lowest Common Denomintor Music (bought by ignorant teeners
who only like what they can understand easy)that then feeds on itself and is
further derailed by popcrap marketting ploys like Brittany.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 8:27:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:44:26 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
wrote:

>> though Rock is continuing to evolve and
>> that's a good thing. In my classes, pure rock projects have declined in the
>> last decade while hip-hop has increased.
>
>That's just the fad thing working it's way through like always.

Hip hop IS rock n roll. It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's
rebellious. Old guys don't get it...

Al
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 8:27:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <agrq51d1214r938bvd7nrllda5or8r118s@4ax.com>,
playon <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:44:26 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> though Rock is continuing to evolve and
> >> that's a good thing. In my classes, pure rock projects have declined in
> >> the
> >> last decade while hip-hop has increased.
> >
> >That's just the fad thing working it's way through like always.
>
> Hip hop IS rock n roll. It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's
> rebellious. Old guys don't get it...
>
> Al

Oh, I think it's a little more complicated than that. The instrumentation is
very different: guitars are fundamental to rock but hardly to hip-hop. The
repetition of musical phrases and song forms are different. Some hip-hop uses
instruments in almost a jazz context but some uses the beat track as mainly a
rhythmic device. It's like the relationship between jazz and blues, perhaps.
But I wouldn't call hip-hop rock'n'roll in general.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 8:30:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/13/05 7:08 AM, in article znr1113353623k@trad, "Mike Rivers"
<mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:

>
> In article <1113348004.660185.228030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
> johnston_west@hotmail.com writes:
>
>> If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may
>> have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain
>> no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ??
>
> Well, today (April 12) was the bazillionth anniversary of the
> recording date for Shake Rattle and Roll by Bill Haley and the Comets,
> a record that some hisorians credit for putting rock'n'roll on the
> map.

Yesterday interestingly an NPR show did a look at the Burnette brothers/rock
and Rol trio madness... classic
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 9:25:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Trevor de Clercq" <declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote in message
news:1113406358.19cd883655693fb71a106b65187da329@teranews...
> There are often three chords in rap and R&B songs. What are you talking
> about? Do you actually listen to rap and R&B? The chords do change.
> The chords change a lot in R&B usually, less so in rap. But rap is more
> of a riff based genre much like the more riff based rock songs (or any
> other riff based music).
>
> Conversely, classical music, from the baroque (and earlier) through to
> the 20th century has many pieces and entire styles based solely around
> three chords or fewer.

And Indian classical music has one chord, essentially, per piece.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 10:27:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Wow, that is something. They don't own a radio?

I don't.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Joe Sensor" <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote in message
news:3c3rgpF6kno5tU1@individual.net...
> J_West wrote:
>
> >
> > Most inner city young kids don't even know who Nirvana was, much less
> > Zeppelin etc....... But they do seem to know the Beatles?
> >
>
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 10:40:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <j8rq51la00438t2rejj051a4mf9ognmgof@4ax.com> playonAT@comcast.net writes:

> Screw the charts... if you get out of the house once and awhile, R & R
> is alive and well in beer joints all over America...

Yeah, but most of it isn't very good, and it'll never get better.
Those guys will be accountants or engineers or marketeers when they
get out of school and they'll stop playing music before they really
learn how to be a band.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:43:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/13/05 3:08 PM, in article agrq51d1214r938bvd7nrllda5or8r118s@4ax.com,
"playon" <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:44:26 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> though Rock is continuing to evolve and
>>> that's a good thing. In my classes, pure rock projects have declined in the
>>> last decade while hip-hop has increased.
>>
>> That's just the fad thing working it's way through like always.
>
> Hip hop IS rock n roll. It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's
> rebellious. Old guys don't get it...
>

Semantics...
Like a Catholic who still wants to be CALLED a Catholic but wants the RULES
changed...
Here's The Crux: What Is Rock & Roll?
Suggestions For Class Discussion:

A)
It's the white-bread cleaned up markettable version of late 40's blues/R&B.
(which is valid but of course leaves OUT the RR originators/inovators from
Johnny Guitar Watson through Hendrix, Isleys, etc)

B)
It's ALL of the above, which then leaves NO real defining distinction
between jazz/R&B/R&R/FUNK/BLUES/HipRapGoGo/etc.


Your above definition
"It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's rebellious"
would allow the inclusion of Stravinsky, Woody Herman, The Legendary
Stardust Cowboy and BR5-49 .
I ain;t sayin that's not VALID but it DOES place us squarely into the
problem of;
a term that is allowed to mean ANYTHING
is a term that really means NOTHING and
is thus useless in communication.

Some Old Guys -Do- get it... It's just always been frustrating for Younguys
to believe that indeed they HAVEN:T actually invented the wheel and there's
more out here (and back then!) than they;ve seen yet.


Johnny "Last-On-His-Block-to-Get-It" V.
April 13, 2005 11:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <BE82EE90.585F%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>,
ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com says...
> Here's The Crux: What Is Rock & Roll?
> Suggestions For Class Discussion:
>
> A)
> It's the white-bread cleaned up markettable version of late 40's blues/R&B.
> (which is valid but of course leaves OUT the RR originators/inovators from
> Johnny Guitar Watson through Hendrix, Isleys, etc)
>
> B)
> It's ALL of the above, which then leaves NO real defining distinction
> between jazz/R&B/R&R/FUNK/BLUES/HipRapGoGo/etc.

While you're doing that, you seem to have forgotten its country,
rockabilly, and jazz roots as well. Rock'n'roll took a little
something from everywhere; certain ones took more from one than
another, and vice-versa, but to say that it's only blues/R&B is
highly mistaken. The branch *I* like best, progressive rock, also
takes a bunch from the classical world as well.
--
---Michael (of APP)...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/austinpowerplantmusic...
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Woody Herman WAS R&R. Woodchopper's ball was a great boogie woogie. It
just had horns instead of a guitar.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message
news:BE82EE90.585F%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com...
> On 4/13/05 3:08 PM, in article agrq51d1214r938bvd7nrllda5or8r118s@4ax.com,
> "playon" <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:44:26 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>> though Rock is continuing to evolve and
> >>> that's a good thing. In my classes, pure rock projects have declined
in the
> >>> last decade while hip-hop has increased.
> >>
> >> That's just the fad thing working it's way through like always.
> >
> > Hip hop IS rock n roll. It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's
> > rebellious. Old guys don't get it...
> >
>
> Semantics...
> Like a Catholic who still wants to be CALLED a Catholic but wants the
RULES
> changed...
> Here's The Crux: What Is Rock & Roll?
> Suggestions For Class Discussion:
>
> A)
> It's the white-bread cleaned up markettable version of late 40's
blues/R&B.
> (which is valid but of course leaves OUT the RR originators/inovators from
> Johnny Guitar Watson through Hendrix, Isleys, etc)
>
> B)
> It's ALL of the above, which then leaves NO real defining distinction
> between jazz/R&B/R&R/FUNK/BLUES/HipRapGoGo/etc.
>
>
> Your above definition
> "It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's rebellious"
> would allow the inclusion of Stravinsky, Woody Herman, The Legendary
> Stardust Cowboy and BR5-49 .
> I ain;t sayin that's not VALID but it DOES place us squarely into the
> problem of;
> a term that is allowed to mean ANYTHING
> is a term that really means NOTHING and
> is thus useless in communication.
>
> Some Old Guys -Do- get it... It's just always been frustrating for
Younguys
> to believe that indeed they HAVEN:T actually invented the wheel and
there's
> more out here (and back then!) than they;ve seen yet.
>
>
> Johnny "Last-On-His-Block-to-Get-It" V.
>
>
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 11:43:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Actually, today's country is largely rock. Country twang guitars started
rock guitar, and now it's come full circle.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Michael" <ra3035@NOTfreescale.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cc73d69422e7f9896f2@news.freescale.net...
> In article <BE82EE90.585F%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>,
> ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com says...
> > Here's The Crux: What Is Rock & Roll?
> > Suggestions For Class Discussion:
> >
> > A)
> > It's the white-bread cleaned up markettable version of late 40's
blues/R&B.
> > (which is valid but of course leaves OUT the RR originators/inovators
from
> > Johnny Guitar Watson through Hendrix, Isleys, etc)
> >
> > B)
> > It's ALL of the above, which then leaves NO real defining distinction
> > between jazz/R&B/R&R/FUNK/BLUES/HipRapGoGo/etc.
>
> While you're doing that, you seem to have forgotten its country,
> rockabilly, and jazz roots as well. Rock'n'roll took a little
> something from everywhere; certain ones took more from one than
> another, and vice-versa, but to say that it's only blues/R&B is
> highly mistaken. The branch *I* like best, progressive rock, also
> takes a bunch from the classical world as well.
> --
> ---Michael (of APP)...
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/austinpowerplantmusic...
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 1:30:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:28:57 -0700, Jay Kadis <jay@ccrma.stanford.edu>
wrote:

>In article <agrq51d1214r938bvd7nrllda5or8r118s@4ax.com>,
> playon <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:44:26 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> though Rock is continuing to evolve and
>> >> that's a good thing. In my classes, pure rock projects have declined in
>> >> the
>> >> last decade while hip-hop has increased.
>> >
>> >That's just the fad thing working it's way through like always.
>>
>> Hip hop IS rock n roll. It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's
>> rebellious. Old guys don't get it...
>>
>> Al
>
>Oh, I think it's a little more complicated than that. The instrumentation is
>very different: guitars are fundamental to rock

Yeah? Tell it to Jerry Lewis and Fats Domino

>but hardly to hip-hop.

>The
>repetition of musical phrases and song forms are different. Some hip-hop uses
>instruments in almost a jazz context but some uses the beat track as mainly a
>rhythmic device. It's like the relationship between jazz and blues, perhaps.
>But I wouldn't call hip-hop rock'n'roll in general.

If you think rock n roll as Chuck Berry or the Clash, yeah Hip Hop is
different. But as far as its agressive attitude and its function in
the youth culture, it's the same. And rock n roll, just like hip hop,
is supposed to be hated by parents.

Al
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 1:32:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/13/05 4:30 PM, in article MPG.1cc73d69422e7f9896f2@news.freescale.net,
"Michael" <ra3035@NOTfreescale.com> wrote:

> In article <BE82EE90.585F%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>,
> ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com says...
>> Here's The Crux: What Is Rock & Roll?
>> Suggestions For Class Discussion:
>>
>> A)
>> It's the white-bread cleaned up markettable version of late 40's blues/R&B.
>> (which is valid but of course leaves OUT the RR originators/inovators from
>> Johnny Guitar Watson through Hendrix, Isleys, etc)
>>
>> B)
>> It's ALL of the above, which then leaves NO real defining distinction
>> between jazz/R&B/R&R/FUNK/BLUES/HipRapGoGo/etc.
>
> While you're doing that, you seem to have forgotten its country,
> rockabilly, and jazz roots as well.

Moi?
The word JAZZ is all over my stuff up there...
And rockabilly is PART of the R&R development.

Country pulled from the same blues elements and blended the mountain/Irish
angle with it more, and even that is more INSTRUMENTATION than
song-structure. The only folks that denied the connection for decades were
the overentrenched Bluegrass and commercial country folks and listeners. I
don;t think Cash or

> Rock'n'roll took a little
> something from everywhere; certain ones took more from one than
> another, and vice-versa, but to say that it's only blues/R&B is
> highly mistaken.

Oh surely, but that's the REAL core. There isn;t much in Rock that does NOT
go back there, whereas other genres are heavier crossbreeds from TRUE
disparate sources.

>. The branch *I* like best, progressive rock, also
> takes a bunch from the classical world as well.

Well, more from 50's-on serious jazz than classical. The only
musically-obvious classical influences (not just training and musicianship
chops and knowledge) that come to mind are Wakeman's PERSONAL projects and
Kieth Emerson (who half the time forgot to credit his classic QUOTES!). What
I heard in Yes owed more to Ellington's lesser-known large-format suites and
structures than the classical realm.
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 1:32:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:43:11 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
wrote:

>On 4/13/05 3:08 PM, in article agrq51d1214r938bvd7nrllda5or8r118s@4ax.com,
>"playon" <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:44:26 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> though Rock is continuing to evolve and
>>>> that's a good thing. In my classes, pure rock projects have declined in the
>>>> last decade while hip-hop has increased.
>>>
>>> That's just the fad thing working it's way through like always.
>>
>> Hip hop IS rock n roll. It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's
>> rebellious. Old guys don't get it...
>>
>
>Semantics...
>Like a Catholic who still wants to be CALLED a Catholic but wants the RULES
>changed...
>Here's The Crux: What Is Rock & Roll?
>Suggestions For Class Discussion:
>
>A)
>It's the white-bread cleaned up markettable version of late 40's blues/R&B.
>(which is valid but of course leaves OUT the RR originators/inovators from
>Johnny Guitar Watson through Hendrix, Isleys, etc)
>
>B)
>It's ALL of the above, which then leaves NO real defining distinction
>between jazz/R&B/R&R/FUNK/BLUES/HipRapGoGo/etc.

My definition... loud, beat-driven music with an attitude that kids
like to dance to, and that can also piss off older people as a fringe
benefit.

Al

>
>
>Your above definition
>"It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's rebellious"
> would allow the inclusion of Stravinsky, Woody Herman, The Legendary
>Stardust Cowboy and BR5-49 .
>I ain;t sayin that's not VALID but it DOES place us squarely into the
>problem of;
>a term that is allowed to mean ANYTHING
>is a term that really means NOTHING and
>is thus useless in communication.
>
>Some Old Guys -Do- get it... It's just always been frustrating for Younguys
>to believe that indeed they HAVEN:T actually invented the wheel and there's
>more out here (and back then!) than they;ve seen yet.
>
>
>Johnny "Last-On-His-Block-to-Get-It" V.
>
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 1:33:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:38:33 -0400, "Roger W. Norman"
<rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:

>Actually, today's country is largely rock. Country twang guitars started
>rock guitar, and now it's come full circle.

Modern country music sounds like tame Southern Rock.
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 11:37:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

J_West wrote:
> The PBS News Hour last night featured a Clarence Page Essay on the
> state of Rock and Roll.......
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/jan-june05/page_4-11...
>
> If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may
> have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain
> no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ??

Hmmm, yeah, that explains why U2 keeps hitting the top of the charts
with every new release.

Where is this guy finding his charts, Vibe Magazine?




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Anonymous
April 14, 2005 1:23:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

playon wrote:

> If you think rock n roll as Chuck Berry or the Clash, yeah Hip Hop is
> different. But as far as its agressive attitude and its function in
> the youth culture, it's the same.

Huh? So any music that kids listen to is rock and roll, then?




> And rock n roll, just like hip hop,
> is supposed to be hated by parents.

Everything that kids do that is hated by parents is rock and roll?
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 2:37:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Sensor <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote:
>
>So I guess Jazz is Rock & Roll too. ;) 

Right. And somewhere around here I used to have a quote from a newspaper
about Franz Liszt destroying the morals of our youth, also. But I cannot
find the thing... it's in a file here somewhere.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 5:05:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Matt Ion wrote:
>>
> Hmmm, yeah, that explains why U2 keeps hitting the top of the charts
> with every new release.
>
> Where is this guy finding his charts, Vibe Magazine?
>
>

Ever hear of Billboard?....
http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/hot100.jsp
U2 is MIA....... But Green Day makes an appearance, so all is not lost
:) 

The point of the Essay is that for the 1st time in a half a century
Rock and Roll is no longer the dominant poplular music. And
historically this is a major cultural shift, just as it was when Jazz
lost that distinction in the early to mid 50s.
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 7:05:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>> Hmmmnnn.... I'm still looking for what any one of us is actually
MEANING by 'Rock'. "
>>>

Guitars, Bass, Drums and a Singer etc?... Actual Bands playing together
(sort of) ........ MIA on the Charts today.
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 8:01:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/14/05 12:32 AM, in article 7gsr511idjrdl0fth5es2ekovfvftmp8k2@4ax.com,
"playon" <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:

> But as far as its agressive attitude and its function in
> the youth culture, it's the same. And rock n roll, just like hip hop,
> is supposed to be hated by parents.
....
> My definition... loud, beat-driven music with an attitude that kids
> like to dance to, and that can also piss off older people as a fringe
> benefit.

Ok, so -you- don;t have a definition of R&R...
Anyone else in the class have a real thought on this?

>> Your earlier definition
>> "It's loud, it's got a beat, and it's rebellious"
>> would allow the inclusion of Stravinsky, Woody Herman, The Legendary
>> Stardust Cowboy and BR5-49 .
>> I ain;t sayin that's not VALID but it DOES place us squarely into the
>> problem of;
>> a term that is allowed to mean ANYTHING
>> is a term that really means NOTHING and
>> is thus useless in communication.
>> Like a Catholic who still wants to be CALLED a Catholic but wants the RULES
>> changed...


>>> guitars are fundamental to rock
>>Yeah? Tell it to Jerry Lewis and Fats Domino

Jerry Lewis was and is an American Classic, more respected in France than
here. His work with Dean Martin is marvelous and much of his better solo
efforts are genius.

But getting back to the R&R thing: The Killer plays hard-assed Boogie Woogie
and barrel house piano (albeit with more charisma than any 16 guit-slinging
headbangers). He'd eat most rappers for breakfast. Fats (And Chubby)
similarly is/was a platable cross-market flavor of the thinly veiled R&B
one-entendre-removed lyric adjustment for the marvelous straight-ahead dirty
blues/R&B stuff of the 50's/60's.

As I said...
>> A)
>> It's the white-bread cleaned up markettable version of late 40's blues/R&B.
>> (which is valid but of course leaves OUT the RR originators/inovators from
>> Johnny Guitar Watson through Hendrix, Isleys, etc)

"ROCK & ROLL" probably is more a short-term lightweight compared to it's
real comtemporary core roots. It's Bill Haley, Chuck Berry (though chuck's
another hard-assed veteran of the chitlin circuit), Danny & The Juniors,
etc.

>> B)
>> It's ALL of the above, which then leaves NO real defining distinction
>> between jazz/R&B/R&R/FUNK/BLUES/HipRapGoGo/etc.

There's a BIG difference between using the term "ROCK-&-ROLL" as a
definition of a specific MUSICAL style and using it as a uselessly-broad
reference to what is merely "youth-rebellion Parent-abuse" culture thing.
The former is pretty specific and the latter is way more a marketting jingo
thang than a real term.

'ROCK' gets into the Amps-Taller-Than_You-Are stuff and ignores the
remarkable work going on (as always) under the top 40 by the REAL folks
driving the train.


> If you think rock n roll as Chuck Berry or the Clash, yeah Hip Hop is
> different.

THANK you!
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 10:06:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:01:28 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
wrote:

>There's a BIG difference between using the term "ROCK-&-ROLL" as a
>definition of a specific MUSICAL style and using it as a uselessly-broad
>reference to what is merely "youth-rebellion Parent-abuse" culture thing.
>The former is pretty specific and the latter is way more a marketting jingo
>thang than a real term.

OK, have it your way. rock n roll is music made between aproximately
1951 and 1966 by groups with guitars.
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 10:08:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 14 Apr 2005 13:05:09 -0700, "J_West" <johnston_west@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Matt Ion wrote:
>>>
>> Hmmm, yeah, that explains why U2 keeps hitting the top of the charts
>> with every new release.
>>
>> Where is this guy finding his charts, Vibe Magazine?
>>
>>
>
>Ever hear of Billboard?....
>http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/hot100.jsp
>U2 is MIA....... But Green Day makes an appearance, so all is not lost
>:) 
>
>The point of the Essay is that for the 1st time in a half a century
>Rock and Roll is no longer the dominant poplular music. And
>historically this is a major cultural shift, just as it was when Jazz
>lost that distinction in the early to mid 50s.

It's a major cultural shift because it's a major demographic shift.
After the Baby Boomers die off Buddy Holly will probably be listened
to about as often as Bix Beiderbeck is today.
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 10:18:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:23:39 -0500, Joe Sensor <crabcakes@emagic.net>
wrote:

>playon wrote:
>
>> If you think rock n roll as Chuck Berry or the Clash, yeah Hip Hop is
>> different. But as far as its agressive attitude and its function in
>> the youth culture, it's the same.
>
>Huh? So any music that kids listen to is rock and roll, then?

If it has a loud beat and it's dance music, and kids like it, usually
the answer is yes. My definition, doesn't work for you? -- fine... I
like being open minded about new things.

>> And rock n roll, just like hip hop,
>> is supposed to be hated by parents.
>
>Everything that kids do that is hated by parents is rock and roll?

Did I say that? Stop dumbing it down.
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 10:22:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 14 Apr 2005 09:58:05 -0700, "trippingtoo8track"
<trippingtoo8track@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Rock is a young man's game for the most part- and no one has come along
>to take up the banner as well as the classic acts of the 1960-70's.

I disagree, I think that it's just the next generation was smaller so
they couldn't make as big a splash, or sell as many records.
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 1:24:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

playon wrote:

> If it has a loud beat and it's dance music, and kids like it, usually
> the answer is yes.

Um, whatever.


> My definition, doesn't work for you? -- fine... I
> like being open minded about new things.

Right. So if you say the moon is made of cheese and I disagree that
makes me closed minded.

Ok, then.
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 1:57:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/14/05 4:05 PM, in article
1113505764.277283.189900@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "J_West"
<johnston_west@hotmail.com> wrote:


> The point of the Essay is that for the 1st time in a half a century
> Rock and Roll is no longer the dominant poplular music. And
> historically this is a major cultural shift, just as it was when Jazz
> lost that distinction in the early to mid 50s.

Hmmmnnn.... I'm still looking for what any one of us is actually MEANING my
'Rock'.

>
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 4:12:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/14/05 6:05 PM, in article
1113516324.082989.306310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "J_West"
<johnston_west@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>> Hmmmnnn.... I'm still looking for what any one of us is actually
> MEANING by 'Rock'. "
>>>>
>
> Guitars, Bass, Drums and a Singer etc?... Actual Bands playing together
> (sort of) ........ MIA on the Charts today.

Today that's more regularly available under JAZZ...
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 6:40:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 14 Apr 2005 10:37:29 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

> And somewhere around here I used to have a quote from a newspaper
>about Franz Liszt destroying the morals of our youth, also.

Once read a review of the new Brahms symphony production in
Boston; it was considered way too harsh and raucous. Maybe the
Fourth.

Chris Hornbeck
6x9=42 April 29
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 7:19:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/14/05 9:18 PM, in article 4h5u511oevbtu70m8vnqe97m93mn7plb8q@4ax.com,
"playon" <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:

> If it has a loud beat and it's dance music, and kids like it, usually
> the answer is yes. My definition, doesn't work for you? -- fine... I
> like being open minded about new things.

Al the ONLY thing here that's just weird is that you;re INSISTING that the
term 'rock' or 'rock and roll' MUST be The Term That Applies, yes the
ONLY thing you;ve consistantly maintained is that
"R&R is defined as youth/rebellion music AND SO anything that today is
'youth/rebellion' music should be called 'Rock & Roll'..." and it's
fascinating that you in the same breath point out exactly WHY you might well
unconsciously do JUST that: Tha indeed the last 50 years have been THE
singularly hugest generational pop-culture ever and the spillover form that
NATURALLY would leave you with the dregs of cultural terminology built
around the term 'ROCK'... Even when it ain;t ROCK anymore. Hence my
'catholics' analogy (which stamds up well there)

Just cuz 'rock' ain;t The Thang anymore doesn;t mean you can;t own
whatevertheheck the Next Big thing is as your own
kneejerk-anydifferent-overindulgence representative icon.
There's ALWAYS simple, common-man-playable music and bad poetry and always
the twin will meet wherever there're folks who want a common accessible
party focus.
!