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Recording Church Services

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April 16, 2005 1:03:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I need to come up with a reasonable way to record our Church services and
distribute the recordings to members who are sick, etc. Our current system
is simply cassette tapes, but this format is getting on a bit.

Output of the mixer is analogue.

My current thoughts are a minidisc recorder such as Sony's HiMD range or
otherwise an iRiver H320 or similar, which can be taken home and plugged
into a PC (preferably digitally so that its faster than realtime). The
resulting MP3 can then be saved onto a CD for playback in a discman style CD
player with MP3 capability, car stereo, or home stereo.

It would also be possible then to save the MP3 onto other playback formats.

The copying would be done by a volunteer who is not necesarily highly
computyer literate so it needs to be a relatively simple process.

Since church services are generally slightly longer than the length of a CD,
normal CD recording is not an option. I have thought about DVD (audio only)
but figured portable DVD players are not quite ready for the average church
member (too expensive, not enough options).

Thanks for any responses

Eric
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Since your programs are longer than 80 minutes CD's, I buy a used desktop
computer for $100, put a good sound card in it and record to hard disk.
Burn your MP3 CD from there and skip the MD.

A computer with a single application installed will be reliable enough.
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Eric wrote:
> Since church services are generally slightly longer than the length of a CD,
> normal CD recording is not an option. I have thought about DVD (audio only)
> but figured portable DVD players are not quite ready for the average church
> member (too expensive, not enough options).

How much longer than 80 minutes are your services? Is there anything you
can edit out to make it fit on the CD? I would think it would be well
worth it if you could cut out a 5 minute hymn in order to get the entire
service on one disc.

I think you will have problems with burning MP3 files to disc. I would
be willing to bet that many of those who will be receiving the discs
won't have a CD player capable of playing MP3 files. I know I don't.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com
Related resources
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Eric" wrote [from au]...
> My current thoughts are a minidisc recorder such as
> Sony's HiMD range or otherwise an iRiver H320 or
> similar, which can be taken home and plugged into a
> PC (preferably digitally so that its faster than realtime).

I would record directly to computer. No fooling around
with intermediate media, conversion, etc. etc. If you can
get a "waterfalled" old computer from a member next time
they upgrade, it will be sufficient for this kind of recording.

> The resulting MP3 can then be saved onto a CD for
> playback in a discman style CD player with MP3
> capability, car stereo, or home stereo.

This sounds really dubious. Have you done a census of
the "customers" to see what kind of playback facilities
they have? Unless you have a very unusual population,
the chances of your parishoners having MP3 on CD
playback capability I'd wager is pretty unlikely.

> Since church services are generally slightly longer than
> the length of a CD, normal CD recording is not an option.

Are you including music? Or is just the spoken part
longer than 80 minutes? Are you paying license fees to
distribute recordings of the music?

> I have thought about DVD (audio only) but figured portable
> DVD players are not quite ready for the average church
> member (too expensive, not enough options).

I would think that MP3 on CD is no more likely than DVD.
In fact DVD players (like those "throw-away" ones from
China) are really cheap and frequently they play MP3 on
CD.

I'd consider some judicious editing. I've never seen a
religious service that didn't have a bit of time that could
be cut out without materially affecting the message, etc.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Eric <me@mydomain.com> wrote:
>
>Since church services are generally slightly longer than the length of a CD,
>normal CD recording is not an option. I have thought about DVD (audio only)
>but figured portable DVD players are not quite ready for the average church
>member (too expensive, not enough options).

You can't swap CDs during the offertory or something?

If you record on CD-R, you can load the recording up into a workstation
almost instantly, make a few quick cuts, and dump it to a distribution
disk almost instantly. If you record on MD, you have to load it up in
realtime.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I started doing this about 9 months ago for our Church, when we
received a request to have MP3 downloads available on the web site.
We were already doing cassette tape recording/duplication.

We record the services using a laptop computer using the Audacity
software, which is a free download. The services are typically about
75-90 minutes long. I take the laptop home and use Audacity to
copy the track and edit it down to 80 minutes (actually about 79:30)
or less so that it can be burned to CD. I then copy the track again
and edit it so only the spoken parts of the service remain, and create
an MP3 file. The MP3 file is highly compressed so that it does not
take too long to download.

The only real problem with this is that the computer has to be there
every Sunday to record the service, which means it does not happen if I
am not there. We are looking at getting a digital recorder that uses
Compact Flash media instead of the computer for recording. The editing
would still be done on a computer.

-Ewan
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <425fbb73$0$26740$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
"Eric" <me@mydomain.com> wrote:

> I need to come up with a reasonable way to record our Church services and
> distribute the recordings to members who are sick, etc. Our current system
> is simply cassette tapes, but this format is getting on a bit.

Snip
>
> Since church services are generally slightly longer than the length of a CD,
> normal CD recording is not an option. I have thought about DVD (audio only)
> but figured portable DVD players are not quite ready for the average church
> member (too expensive, not enough options).


Get in line for an Edirol R1. With a cheap 512mb card or two at 320mb MP3
compression you can record for about 3 hours. Take the CF card into a PC or
Mac, simple editing, throw some track ID's in, burn, distribute and archive.

Note that the R1 is backordered to the moon - demand far outstrips supply. We
are just now seeing December orders being filled-I got 20% of my order. Product
dribbles in, no one has stock and everyone is backordered. I do have one here
on my desk, however.....

Here is a possible alternative:

http://tinyurl.com/6dnsh

They are also backordered but only into late April but it may be more machine
than you need.

We are dealers and you can get in our line if you'd like.

--
Regards,

Klay Anderson
http://www.klay.com
+801-942-8346
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bill Van Dyk wrote:
> Listen folks-- it would be a thing of beauty. Get the press
involved.
> Select a frail, ill older member, and hold a press conference and
> explain how she is not entitled to hear the music at her church
service
> because of the unreasonable claims of the copyright holder.

If 7 cents a song is unreasonable, I'll chip in... and I'm a Buddhist!
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <425fbb73$0$26740$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au> me@mydomain.com writes:

> My current thoughts are a minidisc recorder such as Sony's HiMD range or
> otherwise an iRiver H320 or similar, which can be taken home and plugged
> into a PC (preferably digitally so that its faster than realtime). The
> resulting MP3 can then be saved onto a CD for playback in a discman style CD
> player with MP3 capability, car stereo, or home stereo.
>
> It would also be possible then to save the MP3 onto other playback formats.

If it looks like a CD, you'd better stick to standard CD audio format.
Not everyone has the ability to play MP3s from a CD, and you don't
want to have to deal with custom orders.

Pick up a used or new-refurbished (if they're still available) Nomad
Jukebox 3 and record direct to its internal hard drive at 44.1 kHz,
16-bit. You can break the recording into segments (which appear as
separate files) with an undocumented button on the Jukebox - the FF
button - using the current software, so you have the sermon as a CD
track, the rock band show as a track, and so on, without having to
fool with the computer. With a little planning, you can break up the
recording so that your sllightly too long service will fit logically
on 2 CDs.

> The copying would be done by a volunteer who is not necesarily highly
> computyer literate so it needs to be a relatively simple process.

I've seen hardware CD copiers in a pile on sale at Guitar Center for
under $200. It might be worth getting one of those. No computer
required.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I need to come up with a reasonable way to record our Church services
and
distribute the recordings to members who are sick, etc. Our current
system
is simply cassette tapes, but this format is getting on a bit.

Output of the mixer is analogue.


Sounds like it's tailor made for Pro Tools Free and some church
member's old computer.
Phil Brown
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi Eric,

> I need to come up with a reasonable way to record
> our Church services and distribute the recordings
> to members who are sick, etc. Our current system
> is simply cassette tapes, but this format is getting
> on a bit.
> Output of the mixer is analogue.
>
> My current thoughts are a minidisc recorder such as
> Sony's HiMD range or otherwise an iRiver H320 or similar,

you could use a Marantz Professional PMD660 (~650 EUR)
(http://www.d-mpro.eu.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4497...)
to record the service onto a regular Compact Flash card,
read it into the computer through a normal CF-USB-interface
(cheap) and - if needed - trim the recording so that it fits
on a regular CD.

Best regards,

Dieter Michel
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message
news:115vgodfk3s7v40@corp.supernews.com...
> Are you including music? Or is just the spoken part
> longer than 80 minutes? Are you paying license fees to
> distribute recordings of the music?

License fees for church hymns???

I record our services all the time for the same reasons the OP is , I never
thought about License fees. .!

Ed
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

It's not the amount of money. It's the idea that projecting songs on an
overhead or recording them onto a CD for distribution to sick and shutin
members of the congregation (which has already licensed the same
material for use in the worship service) constitutes some new kind of
use of the material that requires further payment.

Why is a composer entitled to an additional payment because the
congregation looks up at a screen instead of down at their books? It's
absurd.




Theodore Kloba wrote:
> Bill Van Dyk wrote:
ecause of the unreasonable claims of the copyright holder.
>
>
> If 7 cents a song is unreasonable, I'll chip in... and I'm a Buddhist!
>
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1113578299.324205.211570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> milne@egenera.com writes:

> I started doing this about 9 months ago for our Church, when we
> received a request to have MP3 downloads available on the web site.
> We were already doing cassette tape recording/duplication.

It's not unreasonable to assume that anyone who can access the web
site can play an MP3 file, but not someone who's confined to a bed
(maybe in a hospital, rest home, or hospice) and only has a boom box.

> The only real problem with this is that the computer has to be there
> every Sunday to record the service, which means it does not happen if I
> am not there.

The church can't get a computer donated? Even a 286 will make a simple
stereo recording? Sheesh! When I had some old computers to get rid of,
I couldn't even find a church to take them. They didn't want anything
older than a Pentium.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Edward Bridge wrote:
> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message
> news:115vgodfk3s7v40@corp.supernews.com...
>> Are you including music? Or is just the spoken part
>> longer than 80 minutes? Are you paying license fees to
>> distribute recordings of the music?
>
> License fees for church hymns???
>
> I record our services all the time for the same reasons the OP is ,
> I never thought about License fees. .!

Please see

http://www.ccli.com/

This covers licensed materials in hymnals.

I seem to recall that a standard CCLI license allows you to make and
sell enough CDs to cover a reasonable percentage of the service's
attendance.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Edward Bridge" wrote ...
> "Richard Crowley" wrote ...
>> Are you including music? Or is just the spoken part
>> longer than 80 minutes? Are you paying license fees to
>> distribute recordings of the music?
>
> License fees for church hymns???
>
> I record our services all the time for the same reasons
> the OP is , I never thought about License fees. .!

Check your hymnal for copyright notices. I've never
seen a hymnal that didn't have at least 90% of the
songs still under copyright protection.

Distributing recordings requires separate licensing
than live performance (which generally is exempt for
churches and schools in the USA). Even projecting
lyrics on a screen or distributing hard-copy requires
separate licensing. You paid for the licenses for the
hymnal copies as part of the hymnal purchase price.

There is an organization for copyright clearances for
churches: www.ccli.com You should certainly at least
have a working knowledge of this in order to be legal
(not to mention ethical).
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bill Van Dyk <trashtrash@christian-horizons.org> wrote:
>It's not the amount of money. It's the idea that projecting songs on an
>overhead or recording them onto a CD for distribution to sick and shutin
>members of the congregation (which has already licensed the same
>material for use in the worship service) constitutes some new kind of
>use of the material that requires further payment.

I don't see that projecting the words on a screen is any different.
And I don't see that putting the words on a CD-ROM and distributing
them is any different. But distributing a recording of a performance
_is_ different.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
April 16, 2005 1:03:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I worked as head engineer at a church for 8 years, in this type of
situation, license fees do not apply, we contacted the copyright holder
and unless you are trying to make a profit, you don't have to pay fees.
That is just what i know. And as for the recording process, if you
are recording stereo, cd's are probably the best bet, just use one for
praise&worship and one for the sermon. For editing on a budget, check
out Sony's Sound Forge Audio Studio, with a price of $69 bucks its a
good deal, and easy to use. i have been using sound forge since version
3.5 and am now on version 8. So for pc editing its one of you're best
bets. You can than do cuts and edits of the 2 cd's down. I know it
works, i did it for 8 years and have LOTS of master cd's. You can pick
up a used tascam cd recorder pretty cheap, or new ones are getting
cheaper by the day. Eric if you still want some sugestions feel free to
email me at jonATwwaite.tv(just replace AT with @) hope this gives you
some more help.

Jon Waite
JB Productions



Edward Bridge wrote:
> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message
> news:115vgodfk3s7v40@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Are you including music? Or is just the spoken part
>>longer than 80 minutes? Are you paying license fees to
>>distribute recordings of the music?
>
>
> License fees for church hymns???
>
> I record our services all the time for the same reasons the OP is , I never
> thought about License fees. .!
>
> Ed
>
>
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <W7Wdnct6NbBVmv3fRVn-jg@golden.net> trashtrash@christian-horizons.org writes:

> Why is a composer entitled to an additional payment because the
> congregation looks up at a screen instead of down at their books? It's
> absurd.

Anything to make a buck, because the law says you can - and it's the
publisher who makes the bucks. The authors are probably all dead.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Won't some church somewhere please challenge some of these provisions in
court. I find it insane that a church that has paid for copyright for
the songs in their hymnbooks supposedly doesn't have the right to
transmit the service in digital form to members who are absent due to
sickness or frailty.

Listen folks-- it would be a thing of beauty. Get the press involved.
Select a frail, ill older member, and hold a press conference and
explain how she is not entitled to hear the music at her church service
because of the unreasonable claims of the copyright holder. Maybe an
enlightened member of congress might even pause from stuffing his
pockets with cash from lobbiests and Recording and Film organizations to
take part. Announced that you are going to proceed to include the hymns
on your recordings of the service and you invite the copyright owners to
take action if they really want to. Please, somebody do it...

Richard Crowley wrote:
> "Edward Bridge" wrote ...
>
>> "Richard Crowley" wrote ...
>>
>>> Are you including music? Or is just the spoken part
>>> longer than 80 minutes? Are you paying license fees to
>>> distribute recordings of the music?
>>
>>
>> License fees for church hymns???
>>
>> I record our services all the time for the same reasons the OP is , I
>> never thought about License fees. .!
>
>
> Check your hymnal for copyright notices. I've never
> seen a hymnal that didn't have at least 90% of the
> songs still under copyright protection.
> Distributing recordings requires separate licensing than live
> performance (which generally is exempt for
> churches and schools in the USA). Even projecting
> lyrics on a screen or distributing hard-copy requires
> separate licensing. You paid for the licenses for the
> hymnal copies as part of the hymnal purchase price.
>
> There is an organization for copyright clearances for churches:
> www.ccli.com You should certainly at least have a working knowledge of
> this in order to be legal (not to mention ethical).
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You know, do you really believe that the composer wants to tell an
elderly and possibly ill man or woman that when they hear a recording of
a service in the church they have belonged to and financially supported
for many years, that they should not be allowed to hear a worship song?

Have we all lost our senses, or do you really think that this outcome is
quite reasonble, given the needs of copyright owners?


Scott Dorsey wrote:

> I don't see that projecting the words on a screen is any different.
> And I don't see that putting the words on a CD-ROM and distributing
> them is any different. But distributing a recording of a performance
> _is_ different.
> --scott
>
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jon" wrote ...
> I worked as head engineer at a church for 8 years, in this
> type of situation, license fees do not apply,

In the USA, license/permission ALWAYS applies for mechanical
(audio) and sync (video) rights to distribute copies. Makes no
difference whether you are selling copies or giving them away.
Also makes no difference whether the organization is for-profit or
non-profit, government, school, religious institution, etc.

> we contacted the copyright holder and unless you are trying to
> make a profit, you don't have to pay fees.

That was the decision of that particular copyright holder. And
very charitable of them. They are free to charge whatever they
wish including zero. Extrapolating that single data point to a
blanket statement is incorrect and misleading.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bill Van Dyk" wrote in ...
> Won't some church somewhere please challenge some of these provisions
> in court. I find it insane that a church that has paid for copyright
> for the songs in their hymnbooks supposedly doesn't have the right to
> transmit the service in digital form to members who are absent due to
> sickness or frailty.
>
> Listen folks-- it would be a thing of beauty. Get the press involved.
> Select a frail, ill older member, and hold a press conference and
> explain how she is not entitled to hear the music at her church
> service because of the unreasonable claims of the copyright holder.
> Maybe an enlightened member of congress might even pause from stuffing
> his pockets with cash from lobbiests and Recording and Film
> organizations to take part. Announced that you are going to proceed
> to include the hymns on your recordings of the service and you invite
> the copyright owners to take action if they really want to. Please,
> somebody do it...

You don't even know any composers, do you?
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> I suspect that there would be
> no problem obtaining clearance to distribute a limited number of
> copies of hymns sung by the church choir as part of a recording of
the
> church service. The license provision is there to control the
> distribution of commercial recordings by a choir. However, it's
> something to check.

You hit the nail on the head: Ask *first* then make the copies.

I was at a family party over the holidays and brought a couple printed
copies of a song my mother & I co-wrote. Grandma asked for one and we
gave it to her. Without asking, aunt Rose took Grandma's copy and
stuck it into her HP all-in-one to make two copies for herself. I
asked for the statutory royalty (17 cents) and explained that she owed
it because she produced copies without asking. Grandma had negotiated
a less-than-statutory rate (zero!)
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bill Van Dyk" wrote in ...
> Won't some church somewhere please challenge some of these provisions
> in court. I find it insane that a church that has paid for copyright
> for the songs in their hymnbooks supposedly doesn't have the right to
> transmit the service in digital form to members who are absent due to
> sickness or frailty.

What is insane about composers and arrangers getting paid for their
work?

If you don't like it, use the 1928 Anglican Hymnal. My church does.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:03:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I am a composer. I'd be quite honored, actually, if somebody, anybody
were to try and steal my music.

Richard Crowley wrote:
> "Bill Van Dyk" wrote in ...


>
> You don't even know any composers, do you?
April 16, 2005 1:14:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <ZYP7e.5967$go4.1658@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
Edward Bridge <edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:

>License fees for church hymns???

Well, there are traditional churches that play no music more recent
that Thomas Tallis or J.S. Bach, and then there are churches that
play contemporary music which is certainly in copyright.

And even the first case can have issues, such as when you have
performance royalties for specific orchestral and choral arrangements.
Will ASCAP come after your church with litigation? If so, will your
deity smite them? (That would get me to start going to church, you
betcha.)
April 16, 2005 1:19:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <d3onlh$22a$1@panix2.panix.com>,
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

>What is insane about composers and arrangers getting paid for their
>work?

What's insane is that a corporation can hold copyrights indefinitely,
perhaps for centuries after the author's death.

In the US, nothing has automatically entered the public domain since
the end of WWII. That's a very different relationship between the
public and the artist than was enjoyed by previous generations, and the
arguments for this shift of the status quo are a matter of some debate.

>If you don't like it, use the 1928 Anglican Hymnal. My church does.

Are you sure everything in there is free of the copyright extensions
phenomenon?
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:19:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

james <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>In article <d3onlh$22a$1@panix2.panix.com>,
>Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>What is insane about composers and arrangers getting paid for their
>>work?
>
>What's insane is that a corporation can hold copyrights indefinitely,
>perhaps for centuries after the author's death.

That doesn't happen. Not yet anyway, although it might happen in the
future if Disney's lobbying efforts remain successful.

What does happen is that music gets re-arranged now and then, and you pay
money for the arrangement. If you decide to use a 19th century arrangement,
you won't have to pay to use it.

>In the US, nothing has automatically entered the public domain since
>the end of WWII. That's a very different relationship between the
>public and the artist than was enjoyed by previous generations, and the
>arguments for this shift of the status quo are a matter of some debate.

I think this is a bad thing, but I don't see how it is relevant to the
argument.

>>If you don't like it, use the 1928 Anglican Hymnal. My church does.
>
>Are you sure everything in there is free of the copyright extensions
>phenomenon?

Anything before 1923 is free and clear IF it's in the US. For British
materials, it gets foggier because their copyright used to be referenced
to the date of death of the artists.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
April 16, 2005 1:36:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi Carey,



Thanks for your reply,



I would like the copying to be done at home after the service, since that
suits our situation better. The volunteer can then organise the copies
during the week and distributes them as required. Hence a requirement for
some form of portable method which is easy to take home.




However a laptop may possibly do it, although a smaller format is
preferable.



Eric



"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96395EE6986EAgulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.189.191...
> Since your programs are longer than 80 minutes CD's, I buy a used desktop
> computer for $100, put a good sound card in it and record to hard disk.
> Burn your MP3 CD from there and skip the MD.
>
> A computer with a single application installed will be reliable enough.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 1:36:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Eric wrote:

> I would like the copying to be done at home after the service, since
> that suits our situation better. The volunteer can then organise the
> copies during the week and distributes them as required. Hence a
> requirement for some form of portable method which is easy to take
> home.

If you compress the wav file losslessly using freebie software such
as

WavPack, AudioZip, Monkey, RKAU and FLAC as described in more detail
at:

http://www.firstpr.com.au/audiocomp/lossless/

It will then easily fit on a CD-R or CD-RW for the trip home.

You can also load the .wav file onto a USB flash drive, which are now
well under $100 for up to 1 GB.

Or, you can burn the oversided file onto a DVD-R or DVD-RW - the
burners and media is pretty cheap, now.

I've reused a DVD-RW over 90 times with no apparent loss of data
integrity, so this has to be another very cost-effective solution for
moving data around.

If your services go only slightly over 80 minutes there's usually
enough dead air, or other useless stuff that you can easily edit out,
so that your final product is under 80 minutes.
April 16, 2005 1:38:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <klay-BD58B4.09345415042005@news.xmission.com>,
Klay Anderson <klay@klay.com> wrote:

>We are dealers and you can get in our line if you'd like.

I'm interested in this, but if I buy one, I'd have to have it by May 15
or else I'd have to back out. I take it you don't have sufficient
assurance from the vendor to make committments like that?

I was entertaining the idea of pre-ordering one of these through Zzounds
($440) but I hesitate for this reason.
April 16, 2005 2:08:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks to Scott, Richard, EricK and Carey for your quick replies.

Youv'e given me a fair bit of food for thought, I'll take that away and have
a good think about it all and get back to you all later if necessary.

I'll probably do that in a new thread. However, if anyone wants to put in
more thoughts feel free to add to this thread as I'll be monitoring it
regularly anyway.

Thanks again

Eric


"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:D 3ogi7$t93$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Eric <me@mydomain.com> wrote:
> >
> >Since church services are generally slightly longer than the length of a
CD,
> >normal CD recording is not an option. I have thought about DVD (audio
only)
> >but figured portable DVD players are not quite ready for the average
church
> >member (too expensive, not enough options).
>
> You can't swap CDs during the offertory or something?
>
> If you record on CD-R, you can load the recording up into a workstation
> almost instantly, make a few quick cuts, and dump it to a distribution
> disk almost instantly. If you record on MD, you have to load it up in
> realtime.
> --scott
>
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 2:14:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"EricK" <eric@raw-tracks.com> wrote in message
news:IjP7e.8386$c42.7912@fe07.lga...
>
> How much longer than 80 minutes are your services? Is there anything you
> can edit out to make it fit on the CD? I would think it would be well
> worth it if you could cut out a 5 minute hymn in order to get the entire
> service on one disc.
>

I don't believe you can include hymns that are copyrighted without paying a
few so cutting them out will probably solve the size problem (but obviously
aggravate those who enjoy the songs).
April 16, 2005 2:14:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ricky Hunt wrote:
> I don't believe you can include hymns that are copyrighted without paying a
> few so cutting them out will probably solve the size problem (but obviously
> aggravate those who enjoy the songs).

You could be right, but it depends on the hymns. If they are
traditional, their copyright could well be expired. When I was a kid I
used to run copies of the service for my church. We always included the
hymns.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com
April 16, 2005 2:14:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Just read further down the thread, looks like the copyright discussion
is already taking place.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com
April 16, 2005 3:25:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message
news:115vlrtf0onc238@corp.supernews.com...
> "Bill Van Dyk" wrote in ...
> > Won't some church somewhere please challenge some of these provisions
> > in court. I find it insane that a church that has paid for copyright
> > for the songs in their hymnbooks supposedly doesn't have the right to
> > transmit the service in digital form to members who are absent due to
> > sickness or frailty.
> >
> > Listen folks-- it would be a thing of beauty. Get the press involved.
> > Select a frail, ill older member, and hold a press conference and
> > explain how she is not entitled to hear the music at her church
> > service because of the unreasonable claims of the copyright holder.
> > Maybe an enlightened member of congress might even pause from stuffing
> > his pockets with cash from lobbiests and Recording and Film
> > organizations to take part. Announced that you are going to proceed
> > to include the hymns on your recordings of the service and you invite
> > the copyright owners to take action if they really want to. Please,
> > somebody do it...
>
> You don't even know any composers, do you?
>

In our Church we pay for copyright if a recording is made specifically for
the purposes of producing a CD for sale, ie bulk copies are produced. But
the 5-10 copies of services each week for the frail, etc are not. In our
Church we sing psalms (from hymnals purchased by each member) based on
Genevan tunes, ie composed in the 1600's and now in the public domain, with
words translated into English sometime more recently (ie during the last 50
years). The copyright owners of the words are well aware that recordings are
made for the frail and implicitly allow this.

IOW, commonsense prevails.

One of our congregations has a frail aged home near it, and transmits a live
audio/video feed to the home, so that residents are able to join in with the
service from the home. That must be getting into a bit of a gray area. A
similar situation would apply if your church has an overflow area with
separate A/V feed to it. As I said, common sense dictates that these
situations are not what was intended by the copyright holders. Most if not
all songwriters and musicians would be glad that they are able to help those
in need, especially in a church environment.

Eric
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 6:50:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1113594788k@trad...
>
> In article <W7Wdnct6NbBVmv3fRVn-jg@golden.net>
> trashtrash@christian-horizons.org writes:
>
>> Why is a composer entitled to an additional payment because the
>> congregation looks up at a screen instead of down at their books? It's
>> absurd.
>
> Anything to make a buck, because the law says you can - and it's the
> publisher who makes the bucks. The authors are probably all dead.

Plus when you buy the books they are getting paid for each of those books
whereas everyone could look at a single screen and forego the books. I know
relatively few people who can actually read the music in the songbooks
anyway so the words alone are just as good to them.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 11:04:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <SaadnYNXjr9gwP3fRVn-tw@comcast.com> jon@waite writes:

> I worked as head engineer at a church for 8 years, in this type of
> situation, license fees do not apply, we contacted the copyright holder
> and unless you are trying to make a profit, you don't have to pay fees.
> That is just what i know.

You know it for your hymnal's publisher. They're not all the same. In
general, profit doesn't have anything to do with copyright, but the
copyright owner can, if he chooses, give you a license at no cost for
a non-profit project.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 4:29:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Eric,
Another possibility is the Core Sound PDAudio. This is a digital audio
capture device which is hosted in a pocket pc.

You can get a little A>D converter from Radio Shack (under $20) which
converts line level from your pa/mixer to the S/PDIF digital source
required by PDAudio. It should be very suitable for your purpose but
will limit the sampling to 44.1kHz and 16-bit. PDAudio is capable of
24-bit recording.

In addition...here is what you would need.
pocket pc (H2215 $349 or rx2750 $549) one that has both CF and SD slots
PDAudio ($199)
SD memory (1gb costs about $70)
recording software ($50)

Key points
- this system is immediately available. !!!
- recorded data is highly mobile. Take it home on SD and read with a
card reader into your desktop or laptop system.
- your recorder is also very lightweight and portable.
- the software supports changing media while recording, but a 1gb SD
will last 3 hours at 16/44.1
- you could probably fit 2 services on a single 1gb SD. That could be
handy if you couldn't transfer it right away.
- the system is upgradeable. Using a portable micpre/converter and some
mics you could make some very nice 24-bit ambient recordings, choir,
music programs, etc.

For details see the Core Sound website.
http://www.core-sound.com

Gordon Gidluck
http://www.gidluckmastering.com/live2496.html


Eric wrote:
> I need to come up with a reasonable way to record our Church services and
> distribute the recordings to members who are sick, etc. Our current system
> is simply cassette tapes, but this format is getting on a bit.
>
> Output of the mixer is analogue.
>
> My current thoughts are a minidisc recorder such as Sony's HiMD range or
> otherwise an iRiver H320 or similar, which can be taken home and plugged
> into a PC (preferably digitally so that its faster than realtime). The
> resulting MP3 can then be saved onto a CD for playback in a discman style CD
> player with MP3 capability, car stereo, or home stereo.
>
> It would also be possible then to save the MP3 onto other playback formats.
>
> The copying would be done by a volunteer who is not necesarily highly
> computyer literate so it needs to be a relatively simple process.
>
> Since church services are generally slightly longer than the length of a CD,
> normal CD recording is not an option. I have thought about DVD (audio only)
> but figured portable DVD players are not quite ready for the average church
> member (too expensive, not enough options).
>
> Thanks for any responses
>
> Eric
>
>
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 4:29:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Another possibility is the Core Sound PDAudio. This is a
> digital audio capture device which is hosted in a pocket pc.
>
> You can get a little A>D converter from Radio Shack (under
> $20) which converts line level from your pa/mixer to the
> S/PDIF digital source required by PDAudio. It should be
> very suitable for your purpose but will limit the sampling
> to 44.1kHz and 16-bit. PDAudio is capable of 24-bit
> recording.
>
> In addition...here is what you would need.
> pocket pc (H2215 $349 or rx2750 $549) one that has both
> CF and SD slots
> PDAudio ($199)
> SD memory (1gb costs about $70)
> recording software ($50)

For a total cost the better part of a kilobuck. Not to mention
the vulnerability of such high-value pocketable stuff. Plus
the cost of interface for the SD card at the other end.

Remembering that this is a low-budget, FIXED application,
the slowest hand-me-down computer running free software
would capture (and edit) 16x44K WAV directly to HD.
New CD-RW drives are down to $30 in my neighborhood
shop if the compute doesn't have one already. Total cost :
<$50 and possibly zero.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 6:43:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gordon Gidluck wrote:

> You can get a little A>D converter from Radio Shack (under $20)
which
> converts line level from your pa/mixer to the S/PDIF digital source
> required by PDAudio. It should be very suitable for your purpose but
> will limit the sampling to 44.1kHz and 16-bit. PDAudio is capable of
> 24-bit recording.

Can you provide a RS part number or URL on their web site for this
product?
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 6:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny,
It's 15-1242. They call it a signal converter. Typical use is audio and
video. The price is right for a cheap digitizer.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CT...

Gordon

Arny Krueger wrote:
> Gordon Gidluck wrote:
>
>
>>You can get a little A>D converter from Radio Shack (under $20)
>
> which
>
>>converts line level from your pa/mixer to the S/PDIF digital source
>>required by PDAudio. It should be very suitable for your purpose but
>>will limit the sampling to 44.1kHz and 16-bit. PDAudio is capable of
>>24-bit recording.
>
>
> Can you provide a RS part number or URL on their web site for this
> product?
>
>
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 6:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny,
It's 15-1242. They call it a signal converter. Typical use is audio and
video. The price is right for a cheap digitizer.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CT...

Gordon

Arny Krueger wrote:
> Gordon Gidluck wrote:
>
>
>>You can get a little A>D converter from Radio Shack (under $20)
>
> which
>
>>converts line level from your pa/mixer to the S/PDIF digital source
>>required by PDAudio. It should be very suitable for your purpose but
>>will limit the sampling to 44.1kHz and 16-bit. PDAudio is capable of
>>24-bit recording.
>
>
> Can you provide a RS part number or URL on their web site for this
> product?
>
>
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 8:49:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gordon Gidluck wrote:
> Arny,
> It's 15-1242. They call it a signal converter. Typical use is audio
> and video. The price is right for a cheap digitizer.
>
>
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CT...
>


Hmmm, I'll have to take a closer look, on the test bench.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 9:31:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Gordon Gidluck" <gidluck@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:93c58$42614a9d$438d4f33$17485@ALLTEL.NET...

> - the software supports changing media while recording, but a 1gb SD
> will last 3 hours at 16/44.1

Only in mono. In stereo you get about 90 minutes per gigabyte at 16/44.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 9:31:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul,
Thanks for catching that. Hands were not typing what head was thinking. ;-)

Gordon

Paul Stamler wrote:
> "Gordon Gidluck" <gidluck@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:93c58$42614a9d$438d4f33$17485@ALLTEL.NET...
>
>
>>- the software supports changing media while recording, but a 1gb SD
>>will last 3 hours at 16/44.1
>
>
> Only in mono. In stereo you get about 90 minutes per gigabyte at 16/44.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 1:12:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <EIOdnU4UrO7S5_zfRVn-ug@comcast.com> arnyk@hotpop.com writes:

> > It's 15-1242. They call it a signal converter. Typical use is audio
> > and video. The price is right for a cheap digitizer.

> Hmmm, I'll have to take a closer look, on the test bench.

It'll be interesting to see how bad they can make an A/D converter for
$15. I think I've seen the $10 computer sound card, but that might be
a new low for a stand-alone. And S-Video, too.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
April 17, 2005 8:39:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <znr1113613193k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>In article <SaadnYNXjr9gwP3fRVn-tw@comcast.com> jon@waite writes:
>
>> I worked as head engineer at a church for 8 years, in this type of
>> situation, license fees do not apply, we contacted the copyright holder
>> and unless you are trying to make a profit, you don't have to pay fees.
>> That is just what i know.
>
>You know it for your hymnal's publisher. They're not all the same. In
>general, profit doesn't have anything to do with copyright, but the
>copyright owner can, if he chooses, give you a license at no cost for
>a non-profit project.

Profit is not a necessary element for copyright infringement. If it
were that simple, the barter system would create a defense, and the
whole issue with file sharing would simply go away.
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 8:51:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <EIOdnU4UrO7S5_zfRVn-ug@comcast.com> arnyk@hotpop.com
> writes:
>
>>> It's 15-1242. They call it a signal converter. Typical use is
audio
>>> and video. The price is right for a cheap digitizer.
>
>> Hmmm, I'll have to take a closer look, on the test bench.
>
> It'll be interesting to see how bad they can make an A/D converter
for
> $15.

If its bad, that would be expected. If its good, that would be a
surprise.

It might not be all that bad. For example the $30 iMic USB device has
converters that are almost CD-quality. It plays fairly nice. Its
their crazy mic preamp that is always in the record-side signal path
that makes it the abortion it is for recording.

>I think I've seen the $10 computer sound card, but that might be
> a new low for a stand-alone. And S-Video, too.

S-video output on a sound card? Sure that wasn't a video capture card?

IME a $10 sound card would likely be based on a sub-$1 chip of the
kind used on motherboards. These used to be horrid, but now a-days
they have improved to mediocre. Wait 5 years more and they might
improve to almost good.

The last $40 DVD player I took apart had an audio section that was
based on a Crystal Semi chip that ran up to 24/192, had about 90 dB
unweighted dynamic range at 44.1, and 0.1 dB frequency response 20-18
Khz. I think the digital filters were group delay corrected as well.
Pretty scary, eh?
!