Jazz Piano Recording in Bad Room - PZM help

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Dave,

> I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm going to try the PZM
route <

Using PZM microphones can help to reduce the comb filter effects from having
a microphone close to a reflecting boundary. But it will do nothing to get
rid of all the other problems in the room, such as flutter echo, excess
ambience, and boominess at low frequencies. You would do a lot better to
treat the room properly rather than apply a band-aid.

--Ethan

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Grant <NO_SPAM_PLEASE_jmd_2003@msn.com> wrote:
>
>To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has been
>about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with hardwood
>floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.
>
>Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
>RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
>positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
>going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Maybe. It depends on what is wrong with the room.

>Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
>application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
>example, but which one??) There's also very different views about how to get
>a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
>and dangling the pair over the strings works well, but this seems contrary
>to my understanding of how they operate.

This gives you a very close-in sound. It might be a good thing for PA
work.

> PZMs are supposedly poor at
>imaging, but are there workarounds here? Are there ways of somehow creating
>a stereo effect?

Stereo imaging comes from the room. If you are eliminating room effects,
you are also eliminating the real sources of imaging.

>They also apparently have a really sharp high end that
>often needs rolling off - are there any models that exhibit this problem
>less than most?

No, it's part of the physics of the design. They tend to use capsules that
have a strong top-end rolloff, but you will still see a rising top octave
on any actual PZM.

>Anyways, was just hoping to open a discussion focused on
>this topic.

If your room problems are modes and not slap echo, a PZM will not help
you. If you have a large room with a slap echo problem or some kinds
of flutter echo, and you don't have the time to fix the room, the PZM can
be a lifesaver.

In all cases, fixing the room will buy you a lot more than any trick
miking schemes. But when you have ten minutes to airtime this is usually
not possible.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If desparate and broke and still willing to try anything, cover the
piano with heavy packing blankets, and record from underneath the
piano. Or inside on short stick.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:58:49 -0400, "David Grant"
<NO_SPAM_PLEASE_jmd_2003@msn.com> wrote:

>This is a follow up to my post on 2002-03-01
>
>To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has been
>about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with hardwood
>floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.
>
>Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
>RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
>positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
>going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.
>
>Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
>application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
>example, but which one??) There's also very different views about how to get
>a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
>and dangling the pair over the strings works well, but this seems contrary
>to my understanding of how they operate. PZMs are supposedly poor at
>imaging, but are there workarounds here? Are there ways of somehow creating
>a stereo effect? They also apparently have a really sharp high end that
>often needs rolling off - are there any models that exhibit this problem
>less than most? Anyways, was just hoping to open a discussion focused on
>this topic.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave
>
>
>

Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Grant wrote:

> Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
> RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
> positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable.

Mind you, I like my old C451 w/CK1 cap very well for some things; but
I'd not think to capture a jazz piano with a pair of them. They're
slightly bitey on the top. Can work for some types of pop piano sounds.

Smoother mics can help, like the Schoeps, or for less, the Josephson
Series 4's, and hypercardioid capsules can often deal well with
unfortunate acoustics.

PZM's are most handy (I still have a Wahrenbrock that works) but you
still may not appreciate the result if you want a natural piano sound,
since any directional mic too close to the piano fails to hear the whole
instrument

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <_OQ8e.1467$K24.1181@read1.cgocable.net> NO_SPAM_PLEASE_jmd_2003@msn.com writes:

> Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
> application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
> example, but which one??)

They're really all about the same (other than the half-hemisphere
styles), particularly when you tape them to a large surface like a
piano lid, or put them on the floor.

PZMs on a piano are best when you need to close the lid because of
leakage, but they're never best. I don't think they'll solve your bad
room problems, but they might give you a sound that you can live with
because you'll be reducing the room ambience.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

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I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ethan Winer wrote:

> Using PZM microphones can help to reduce the comb filter effects from having
> a microphone close to a reflecting boundary. But it will do nothing to get
> rid of all the other problems in the room, such as flutter echo, excess
> ambience, and boominess at low frequencies. You would do a lot better to
> treat the room properly rather than apply a band-aid.
>
> --Ethan
>
>

Ditto....if the room is the problem, why are you trying to fix the mic?
Without more specifics about the room it's hard to tell what the exact
problem might be. But it sounds like you could benefit from a rug on the
hardwoods and some eggshell foam or diffusers on the walls/ceiling
(assuming all the surfaces are parallel). If you'd rather not hassle,
you could try placing mics inside the piano with the cover closed for an
ultra dry sound and then add a room in post w/ a top-quality plugin such
as waves. Good luck!

Jonny Durango

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <_OQ8e.1467$K24.1181@read1.cgocable.net>,
David Grant <NO_SPAM_PLEASE_jmd_2003@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>This is a follow up to my post on 2002-03-01
>
>To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has been
>about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with hardwood
>floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.

You call that a bad room? What you describe sounds fabulous. A great
piano, a nice long room where you can sit up close and hear the music or
off in the back and listen quietly, a nice reflective floor, and some
furniture to mute it a bit.

This room is a problem for jazz?

>Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
>RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
>positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
>going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Have you tried putting condensor mics left and right of your head while
you play? (I'm assuming you're the player, even though you didn't say
so; I'm a pianist myself so I jump to conclusions by putting myself in
the situation).

>Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
>application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
>example, but which one??)


Crown PZM's are something of a de-facto standard for miking pianos.

The lid makes an ideal flat backing for the PZM's and if you keep the
lid closed, it pretty much eliminates any noise from outside. You might
want to experiment, putting a stereo pair of PZM's over the bridge, or
one over the bridge, one near the back, or even try one on the floor
(the wood floor under the piano should make an excellent soundboard.)

The most fiddly part of this seems to be hanging the wire so it stays
off the strings.


>There's also very different views about how to get
>a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
>and dangling the pair over the strings works well

Good lord no. That defeats the purpose of the design of the mic.

I don't know about stereo imaging, since the only experience I have
personally is with a single mic in a 7' Steinway, for taping my
university recitals. And I'm fairly certain the mic was a late 1980s
Radio Shack knockoff. But the tapes were no worse than my performance,
which was no worse than my playing today :-)

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <wO6dnfM3pdfrFvnfRVn-oQ@comcast.com>,
Jonny Durango <jonnydurango1BUSH_FROM_OFFICE@comcast.net> wrote:

>you could try placing mics inside the piano with the cover closed for an
>ultra dry sound and then add a room in post w/ a top-quality plugin such
>as waves. Good luck!

What's wrong with a clean, dry piano? Once you have it down, you'd ruin
it with artificial stuff? Why?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

james wrote:

> You call that a bad room? What you describe sounds fabulous. A great
> piano, a nice long room where you can sit up close and hear the music or
> off in the back and listen quietly, a nice reflective floor, and some
> furniture to mute it a bit.
>
> This room is a problem for jazz?
>

If all the surfaces are parallel a room this size could produce some
nasty standing waves, especially with those hardwoods. I regularly play
a kawai baby grand in a room about this size and despite hanging
curtains on one of the walls the standing waves are pretty bad.

>
> Crown PZM's are something of a de-facto standard for miking pianos.
>

Technically Crown is the only company that makes Pressure Zone
Microphones....there are lots of good boundary mics but it's true that
Crown is pretty much the standard

>
>>There's also very different views about how to get
>>a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
>>and dangling the pair over the strings works well
>
>
> Good lord no. That defeats the purpose of the design of the mic.
>

yep....that is pretty pointless

Jonny Durango

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Grant wrote:
> This is a follow up to my post on 2002-03-01
>
> To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion
> has been about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x
8'H
> with hardwood floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP
> into a DAW.
>
> Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading
> to an RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the
> 5 billion mic positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is
> unworkable. So I'm going to try the PZM route as some people seem to
> be big advocates.

I think that using a PZM on a piano can be a very effective thing to
do. Its an act with a purpose, and that purpose is not obtaining a
maximally natural sound.

> Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs
> for this application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned
> ('Crown PZM' for example, but which one??)

Hmm, there's always the Shure SM91 and sucessor Beta 91.

>There's also very different views about how to get a decent sound
with them. For
> example I've read that taping two back to back and dangling the pair
> over the strings works well, but this seems contrary to my
> understanding of how they operate.

I agree, it seems bizarre.

So what are you thinking of here - putting the PZM inside the piano to
get the sound of the strings and sounding board with minimal
involvement of your apparently bad-sounding listening room, or what?

> PZMs are supposedly poor at imaging, but are there workarounds
here?

If you put the PZM out in the room, you are going to involve that
room's sound, which say you don't like.

> Are there ways of somehow creating a stereo effect?

My approach is to use the PZM on the underside of the piano top, along
with another close-mounted mic under the piano and at its foot. This
definately gives you two vastly different acoustical views of the
piano.

>They also apparently have a really sharp high end that often needs
rolling off.

As I use the PZM there's this gigantic blast of midrange from it that
overwhelms almost everything else that might be happening. Something
about the location, I think.

> - are there any models that exhibit this problem less than most?

I don't have the resources to be a conossieur of PZMs.

> Anyways, was just hoping to open a discussion focused on this
topic.

If you put a PZM inside a piano, you can definately pretty well remove
the room from the equation. The cost is natural sound. Doing this
almost makes the piano sound like an electronic instrument.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Then again, plugs have gotten much better and it costs far less for the
plugs than the actual hardware pieces.

I wouldn't prefer to record a dry piano sound and then add acoustics but
sometimes you don't have that "preferential" ability.

Considering what you are trying to do, there's obviously one thing you can
do that you aren't considering (or haven't addressed) and that is to go
somewhere else and record the piece on some other piano. I make the wild
hair assumption that it's the performance you wish to capture and not the
desire to make the sound of that particular piano into some stellar sound.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"David Grant" <NO_SPAM_PLEASE_jmd_2003@msn.com> wrote in message
newss%8e.1756$K24.421@read1.cgocable.net...
>
> > I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
> > kevin
> >
>
> Hmm, that kind of contradicts most of what I've read on here in the past
few
> years.
>
> Dave
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jonny Durango wrote:

> >>There's also very different views about how to get
> >>a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
> >>and dangling the pair over the strings works well

> > Good lord no. That defeats the purpose of the design of the mic.

> yep....that is pretty pointless

Theory, schmeory. Tried it? It's kind of a bastardization of Jecklin and
can work well sometimes.

--
ha