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Patchbays/Jackfields.

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April 19, 2005 5:42:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi,

I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into
it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).  Instead, I
would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has
rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
destination.  I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web.  Does one exist
and where might I get it?

Yours,
Gary Hayward.

More about : patchbays jackfields

Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:42:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Yes, there are devices like this. Keep in mind they will usually be larger,
have less I/O and be more expensive than a standard patchbay. I haven't
seen a purely mechanical one in a long time ( they were really big and
usually used for synthesizers ) but there are a lot of digitally controlled
ones out there. The ones with lots of I/O made for large TV studios etc are
really expensive and the ones that are at the bottom of the price range are
still kind of expensive and only have 8 to 16 I/O.

When you do a Google search user the word 'matrix' in your search string,
like 'audio matrix switch patchbay'

Here's a sample :
http://www.sound-music.com/product_info.php?PID=212

Also check out Coleman Audio and Little Labs for their existing products or
perhaps they can make you something custom
http://www.colemanaudio.com/
http://www.littlelabs.com/

Also, lots of regular patchbays here :
http://home.flash.net/~motodata/patchbays/right.html

--
John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com

"Gazza" <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote in message
news:3mZ8e.36942$pA6.13494@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords
> into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which
> has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist
> and where might I get it?
>
> Yours,
> Gary Hayward.
>
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:42:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gazza <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote:
>
>I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into
>it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).  Instead, I
>would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
>audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has
>rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
>destination.  I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web.  Does one exist
>and where might I get it?

This is called a "Matrix Switch." It's substantially more expensive than
a simple patchbay, it often does not provide very good multing, and it is
generally a pain in the neck. But, it can be set up for computer control
which is handy for a lot of things.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:42:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gazza wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch
chords into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).
Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from
all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and
which has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one
exist
> and where might I get it?
>
> Yours,
> Gary Hayward.

That's a "Switcher" not a patchbay. They come in various sizes [numbers
of inputs x number of outputs ] ie 120 x 80 . Most are designed to
chase a video switcher, and work based on some sort of computer
automation. Companies that make them are Leitch, Grass-Valley, Sony,
Phillips ( sometimes under the names Venus, i forget the name of the
audio switcher ) Check in used broadcast equipment.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:42:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1113879507.848237.318300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> nmm <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:
>
> >Check in used broadcast equipment.
>
> In what universe is broadcast equipment retired before it becomes
> a molten pool?

You must work at PBS or something. I've seen all sorts of things get
retired that still have many good years left on them. Switchers,
especially analog audio switchers, are being retired to make room for
AES/EBU switchers. Analog Video DAs that were only a few years old were
replaced with SDI Video DAs, and are now being replaced with HD-SDI
video DAs.

I forget the exact FCC rule, and what date it is effective by, but all
broadcast is going digital. That means that all sorts of things that
were in the broadcast chain are being dumped, and replaced by HD
compatible digital equipment. That means a lot of the big broadcasters
are refurbishing, and a lot of used gear that is not a "Molten pool" is
showing up on the market. I can see an Analog audio switcher as
something that will get retired.

Now if the FCC would grant some LPTV licences to anyone other than
religious nuts, maybe some of this equipment could get put to good use.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:42:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1113882844.768931.319550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> nmm <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:
>
> >You must work at PBS or something.
>
> Well spotted! :-)

It's funny comparing the American public broadcasting system with the
rest of the world. At the CBC broadcast centre they bought 3 Neve
capricorns when they came out, and ending up pulling one and demanding
Neve build them an Analog board ( which Neve weren't doing at the
time). All the PBS facilties I've seen are starving for equipment. I've
never worked on any CBC project that was "underengineered" in any way.
Straight out overkill on everything. Need a tape deck; buy a Studer.
Need a Distribution Amp; we should have 2 spares, with
redundent power supplies.

>
> All my broadcast experience has been in college radio and community
> radio. Well, I had a certain amount of involvement in a small TV
> station, but they had the most amazing digital patching system I've
ever
> seen; cooler than anything I saw touring NASA Mission Control,
actually.

The cool thing i say at Cape Canavril were those hugh Amphenol
connectors that break away between the multi-stage boosters.


>
> On the other hand, that TV station had a basement full of stuff that
> looked like it went back to 1954. Didn't look like they ever threw
> anything away, or even had a yard sale.
>

It seems that a lot of station engineers are packrats, hoarding away
equipment for rainy days. At one CBC transmitter site they were
storing old satelitte recievers, all completely useless. they are
decomisioning all their microwave STLs, but that stuff will sit for
years before any of it gets sold. Something to do with paperwork and
budgets; if they make money by selling things one year that money will
be cut from their budget the next.


> >I forget the exact FCC rule, and what date it is effective by, but
all
> >broadcast is going digital.
>
> Yeah, and all power plants are going solar. And the Easter Bunny
hides
> eggs in every kid's yard, and Santa Claus brings them toys, too ;-)


NO this is real.. no joke. It has been pushed back from the original
date they set, but soon the FCC has mandates All Broadcasts Must be
available Digital.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 6:27:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 18 Apr 2005 22:15:34 -0400, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
> Gazza <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote:
>>
>>I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into
>>it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).  Instead, I
>>would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
>>audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has
>>rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
>>destination.  I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web.  Does one exist
>>and where might I get it?
>
> This is called a "Matrix Switch." It's substantially more expensive than
> a simple patchbay, it often does not provide very good multing, and it is
> generally a pain in the neck. But, it can be set up for computer control
> which is handy for a lot of things.
> --scott
>

Agilent and others these in instrumentation grade. Might be a good bit
more money than you want to spend, but they support all sorts of
switching configurations.
April 19, 2005 7:25:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1113879507.848237.318300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
nmm <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:

>Check in used broadcast equipment.

In what universe is broadcast equipment retired before it becomes
a molten pool?
April 19, 2005 8:16:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1113882844.768931.319550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
nmm <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:

>You must work at PBS or something.

Well spotted! :-)

All my broadcast experience has been in college radio and community
radio. Well, I had a certain amount of involvement in a small TV
station, but they had the most amazing digital patching system I've ever
seen; cooler than anything I saw touring NASA Mission Control, actually.

On the other hand, that TV station had a basement full of stuff that
looked like it went back to 1954. Didn't look like they ever threw
anything away, or even had a yard sale.

>I forget the exact FCC rule, and what date it is effective by, but all
>broadcast is going digital.

Yeah, and all power plants are going solar. And the Easter Bunny hides
eggs in every kid's yard, and Santa Claus brings them toys, too ;-)
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 10:13:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/18/05 9:42 PM, in article 3mZ8e.36942$pA6.13494@newsfe1-win.ntli.net,
"Gazza" <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).  Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination.  I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web.  Does one exist
> and where might I get it?

I have the remains of the one built for Mutual Radio in the 50's
It's a 12" rack panel mounting 18 6-pos 2-gang rotary switches and a WHOLE
buncha 2-pair. You can build this easily as long as you first make a list
and cross-refernce of what has to connect with what.
April 19, 2005 10:22:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1113888051.262784.242290@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
nmm <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:

>
>
>NO this is real.. no joke. It has been pushed back from the original
>date they set, but soon the FCC has mandates All Broadcasts Must be
>available Digital.
>

No, they will get around it. It's too easy. They can appeal to the
voters, who will rain fury on their congresspeople.

You must understand how firmly attached to television little old ladies
are. And that's who drives politics in the US, believe it.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 11:11:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
> "nmm" <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:
> >
> > [...] I've never worked on any CBC project that was
"underengineered"
> > in any way. Straight out overkill on everything.
>
>
>
>
> My tax dollars at work. Funding my competition, no less.
>
> Only in Canada...
>

Are you really Lenny Asper? CBC has a mandate to reach every Canadian,
and Not make a profit. IF it was a "For Profit" broadcaster, it would
be competing against Global, CTV, and CHUM. But as it is CBC isn't
stealing advertisers.

I don't love all the CBC policies, but it's a good thing that someone
is putting up transmitter towers in "Pickle Lake Ontario" and providing
a National service. Look at what has become of the American Media
without the anchor of a strong national broadcaster.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:18:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm guessing you're looking for a typical electrically controlled or
pushbutton router/switcher/matrix. This type of stuff is common in the
video world, and most companies make "audio only" versions:

www.kramerelectronics.com

www.extronelectronics.com

www.knoxvideo.com

Also check out Ocean Matrix and TecNec stuff, although it's usually
repackaged Kramer equipment.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

Gazza wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist
> and where might I get it?
>
> Yours,
> Gary Hayward.
>
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:53:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

james <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>In article <1113888051.262784.242290@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>nmm <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:
>>
>>NO this is real.. no joke. It has been pushed back from the original
>>date they set, but soon the FCC has mandates All Broadcasts Must be
>>available Digital.
>
>No, they will get around it. It's too easy. They can appeal to the
>voters, who will rain fury on their congresspeople.
>
>You must understand how firmly attached to television little old ladies
>are. And that's who drives politics in the US, believe it.

Also, I think the actual over-the-air broadcast television is dead for
the most part. Market penetration of satellite and cable is so high
that I don't think it really matters what local stations do with their
broadcast signals, because so few people are receiving them directly
anyway.

And the satellite and cable providers are _not_ required to go digital,
although most of them are headed in that direction if they aren't already
there, because they can control bandwidth use that way.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
April 19, 2005 4:14:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John L Rice wrote:

> Yes, there are devices like this. Keep in mind they will usually be
> larger,
> have less I/O and be more expensive than a standard patchbay. I haven't
> seen a purely mechanical one in a long time ( they were really big and
> usually used for synthesizers ) but there are a lot of digitally
> controlled ones out there. The ones with lots of I/O made for large TV
> studios etc are really expensive and the ones that are at the bottom of
> the price range are still kind of expensive and only have 8 to 16 I/O.
>
> When you do a Google search user the word 'matrix' in your search string,
> like 'audio matrix switch patchbay'
>
> Here's a sample :
> http://www.sound-music.com/product_info.php?PID=212
>
> Also check out Coleman Audio and Little Labs for their existing products
> or perhaps they can make you something custom
> http://www.colemanaudio.com/
> http://www.littlelabs.com/
>
> Also, lots of regular patchbays here :
> http://home.flash.net/~motodata/patchbays/right.html
>

Hi,

I've decided to make my own. I have done a diagram that shows how I will do
it: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.hayward/My_Switchbox_....

Any comments are welcome.

Yours,
Gary Hayward.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 4:14:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gazza wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I've decided to make my own. I have done a diagram that shows how I will do
>it: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.hayward/My_Switchbox_....
>
>Any comments are welcome.

What you propose is called a "passive matrix" and is subject to several
problems.

The greatest of these problems is the lack of input and output buffering.
This means that the loads presented to devices connected to the matrix
inputs and the source impedances seen at the outputs vary depending on the
number of outputs to which they are routed and on the devices connected to
the matrix outputs. The inability to control these loads may lead to level,
distortion, and crosstalk problems.

Other problems result from the one-switch-per-crosspoint "control system".
At 8 by 8 (64 switches) you are probably right at the limit of practicality.
Consider that, if you're building this in a rack mount box, you'll need 4
or 5 rack units (1 RU = 1.75") to accomodate the switches while the I/O
connectors would fit in 1 RU.

Another control system issue is that there is nothing to prevent you from
routing more than one input to an output. This results in attempting to
mix inputs without the benefit of a mix bus which also leads to level and
distortion problems.

The bottom line is that at 8 by 8 you may achieve accetable performance
but it depends more on luck than on engineering.

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mkesti@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:34:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"nmm" <voxman@arvotek.net> wrote:
>
> [...] I've never worked on any CBC project that was "underengineered"
> in any way. Straight out overkill on everything.




My tax dollars at work. Funding my competition, no less.

Only in Canada...

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 7:42:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Already sent this to uk.rec.audio NG

Gary
a / Is it just for audio connections?
b / How many sources and how many destinations are you catering for? Count
stereo ones as 2.
c / Are the lines unbal, or a mixture of both?
d / Are the lines roughly at same operating level? You are advised not to
route mic level!
e / Will you be "sending" to several preferred destins from one source
often?
f / Do you have any DAs? Stereo or mono.
g / Will some sources be normalled to their receiving destins almost
permanently?
h / Are there any long tielines to/from your central bay?
j / Is input muting/shorting sometimes involved?
k / Is there a default (failsafe) set-up?
l / Will monitoring /metering be expected?

These are the sort of questions, problems and reliefs encountered before
designing a *matrix* of a certain size.
Jim

"Gazza" <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote in message
news:n5Z8e.36913$pA6.25203@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords
> into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which
> has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist
> and where might I get it?
>
> Yours,
> Gary Hayward.
>


"Gazza" <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote in message
news:3mZ8e.36942$pA6.13494@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords
> into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which
> has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist
> and where might I get it?
>
> Yours,
> Gary Hayward.
>
April 19, 2005 8:18:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael R. Kesti wrote:

> Gazza wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I've decided to make my own. I have done a diagram that shows how I will
>>do
>>it: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.hayward/My_Switchbox_....
>>
>>Any comments are welcome.
>
> What you propose is called a "passive matrix" and is subject to several
> problems.
>
> The greatest of these problems is the lack of input and output buffering.
> This means that the loads presented to devices connected to the matrix
> inputs and the source impedances seen at the outputs vary depending on the
> number of outputs to which they are routed and on the devices connected to
> the matrix outputs. The inability to control these loads may lead to
> level, distortion, and crosstalk problems.
>
> Other problems result from the one-switch-per-crosspoint "control system".
> At 8 by 8 (64 switches) you are probably right at the limit of
> practicality. Consider that, if you're building this in a rack mount box,
> you'll need 4 or 5 rack units (1 RU = 1.75") to accomodate the switches
> while the I/O connectors would fit in 1 RU.
>
> Another control system issue is that there is nothing to prevent you from
> routing more than one input to an output. This results in attempting to
> mix inputs without the benefit of a mix bus which also leads to level and
> distortion problems.
>
> The bottom line is that at 8 by 8 you may achieve accetable performance
> but it depends more on luck than on engineering.
>

Hi,

I could use trim pots and level meters but I'd have to have loads of them
and I'd be making a mixer. The only other option would be automatic
balancing which would require clever electronics. Hmmm. I'll see if I can
find a ready-made product or else I'll just have to get another mixer with
lots of buses.

Yours,
Gary Hayward.
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 2:37:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3mZ8e.36942$pA6.13494@newsfe1-win.ntli.net> gazza@192.168.1.1 writes:

> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).  Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination.

360 Systems made a few of these, and probably still do. eBay is your
friend here. Some of them have buttons, others are controlled by a
computer. CM Labs also has one and I'm pretty sure they still make it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 4:33:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gary,

I saw this on Ebay and thought you might be interested :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7316...

--
John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com

"Gazza" <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote in message
news:3mZ8e.36942$pA6.13494@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords
> into
> it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I
> would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my
> audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which
> has
> rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any
> destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist
> and where might I get it?
>
> Yours,
> Gary Hayward.
>
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 11:45:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/18/05 8:42 PM, in article 3mZ8e.36942$pA6.13494@newsfe1-win.ntli.net,
"Gazza" <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote:

> Does one exist and where might I get it?

Sure, here's a really great one:

http://crookwood.com/products/iRou-A1.htm

Mastering-grade switching, expandable, computer controlled.


Allen
--
Allen Corneau
Mastering Engineer
Essential Sound Mastering
Houston, TX
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 3:06:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Allen Corneau" <acorneau@mac.com> wrote in message
news:BE8C1B91.1DD8B%acorneau@mac.com...
> On 4/18/05 8:42 PM, in article 3mZ8e.36942$pA6.13494@newsfe1-win.ntli.net,
> "Gazza" <gazza@192.168.1.1> wrote:
>
>> Does one exist and where might I get it?
>
> Sure, here's a really great one:
>
> http://crookwood.com/products/iRou-A1.htm

It is really great, but expensive! $4,000 - $8,000 US depending on model.
The original post asked for a patch panel with switches not using patch
cords. Neutrix makes a 2 row 24 input all TRS patch bay for $100. I would
ask original poster if he wants patch-cable-free that badly to pay 40 times
as much?

Julian
!