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Another Piano micing question

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Anonymous
April 20, 2005 9:41:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but this
one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a good
answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing is
this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere setting
where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano and this
would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I thought
about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I have
the old radio shack PZM.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

More about : piano micing question

Anonymous
April 20, 2005 11:38:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"transmogrifa" wrote ...
> I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but this
> one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a good
> answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
> piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing is
> this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere setting
> where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano and this
> would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I thought
> about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I have
> the old radio shack PZM.
>
> Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

For what reason are you micing it? Reinforcement? Recording?
What kind of music?

PZM on the floor maybe for recording, but maybe not enough
gain before feedback for reinforcement (depending on music,
levels, etc. etc. etc.) Not sure why you would want padding
under a PZM, kinda destroys the integrity of the reflective
surface, etc.

PZM inside the lid might be a possibility even if you can't have
the lid open during business hours. Much better gain before
feedback. Certainly a different "sound", but then we are
completely in the dark about what kind of music, what you
need, etc. etc.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 4:08:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

transmogrifa wrote:

> I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but this
> one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a
good
> answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
> piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing
is
> this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere
> setting where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano
> and this would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I
> thought about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding
> underneath. I have the old radio shack PZM.
>
> Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

(1) Open lid
(2) Attach PZM to underside of lid - industrial strength Velcro works
and stays.
(3) Close lid

Where you put the PZM on the lid depends on what kind of sound you
want.

If you put it up by the hammers, then you a well-hammered sound along
with some mechanical sounds from the hammer mechanism

If you put it in the middle, you get a very midrangy sound

If you put it down by the foot of the piano, then you get as much of a
bassy sound as you are going to get with a mic inside a piano

If you don't know what you want, or you want lotsa choices, you get 3
PZMs and route each to an input on a mic mixer... ;-)
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 6:03:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"transmogrifa" <mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote in
news:1114044079.521440.34750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> I thought
> about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I have
> the old radio shack PZM.

Any mic under the piano is going to get a muffled sound.

1) Can you attach your PZM to the underside of the lid? Gaffers tape will
leave no residue, or perhaps a spot of black velcro.

2) Are your tip jar and drink coaster on the lid just above the keyboard,
or can you fold that back to expose the strings? A mic on a stand pointing
down into the string cavity will get some semblance, but it will also get
plenty of room noise.

3) A pickup mounted to the sounding board is another option, though less
desirable.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 8:07:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:
> "transmogrifa" wrote ...
> > I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but
this
> > one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a
good
> > answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
> > piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing
is
> > this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere
setting
> > where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano and this
> > would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I thought
> > about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I
have
> > the old radio shack PZM.
> >
> > Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
>
> For what reason are you micing it? Reinforcement? Recording?
> What kind of music?
>


The music type is what I would call "pop jazz." Stuff like Frank
Sinatra and Tony Bennett. The reason for the recording is as a prelim
to studio recording with the idea of evaluating the material and
possibly using one or two of the takes. It would during the regular
performances of the artist during business hours. Small lounge setting.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 10:31:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If the PZM is less than desirable and you have two of something
available make two cradles with gaffers (okay duct if you will) tape
and secure two mics above the strings, you can point both at the
hammers for more attack, or one toward the foot of the bass strings and
the high side toward the hammers. Place the mic elements on the same
plane regardless of the direction they are pointed. I use a 9 volt
battery to "vent" the lid on the high side of the keyboard at the
folding hinge, but that might be dangerous to the lid if people are
going to sit on it unless you use three or more to support the top.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 12:11:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"transmogrifa" <mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote:
>
> [...] The situation would be micing a baby grand [...]
> in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing is this, I can't
> open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere setting
> where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano
> and this would block the eye line of the player which is a
> no go.




We have the same problem in TV... gotta close the damn lid so it won't
block sight lines. Our solution was to cut a little black block that
holds the lid open about an inch or so, just enough to slide in a boom
stand. We then hung an XY pair of KM184 inside. Exactly where we hung
them depended on the sound we were after, but usually about mid span,
maybe a foot back from the hammers.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 2:48:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:

> PZM inside the lid might be a possibility even if you can't have
> the lid open during business hours. Much better gain before
> feedback. Certainly a different "sound", but then we are
> completely in the dark about what kind of music, what you
> need, etc. etc.

The isolation this affords is IME really pretty good. I was recording
an accompaniment track after church. Wouldn't you know that right in
the middle some %$#!!s walked in talking to each other, and walked
around the piano and out the back door? I was sure that another take
would be in order, but in fact the first take was fine.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 5:02:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/20/05 8:41 PM, in article
1114044079.521440.34750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "transmogrifa"
<mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote:

> I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but this
> one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a good
> answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
> piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing is
> this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere setting
> where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano and this
> would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I thought
> about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I have
> the old radio shack PZM.

The pzm mounted on the underside of the lid ...
WHERE under the lid? Your Ears Will Know

or any decent omni same place... I once did this in a panic with a couple
of $100 SHURE SM11 lavs and got REALLY lucky with the specific Steinway D
and with position, it was one of the most realistic piano sounds I've ever
gotten...

When you have to be INSIDE of (or just closer than 4' to) the instrument, an
omni is your salvation (which is why PZM's do what they do).
That I or anybody get acceptable piano sounds out of cards-in-close
continues to amaze me.

Thank you Dick Rosmini...
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 5:06:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/20/05 10:38 PM, in article d473ns$7v6$1@news01.intel.com, "Richard
Crowley" <richard.7.crowley@intel.com> wrote:

Not sure why you would want padding
> under a PZM, kinda destroys the integrity of the reflective
> surface, etc.


Mmmmmmm... If it's something like thin foam double-stick carpet tape on
either side of 1/8" then Not Really, it will affect the shelf in the lower
midrange a --LITTLE-- maybe, but the plate on the PZM itself takes care of
the immediate bulk of stuff and the lid of the piano as extension deals with
the lo end and the result is still pretty darned good over other
alternatives.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 7:23:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike,

We get a terrific sound from a condenser mic that is wrapped in foam and
secured by tape or rubber band (leaving the capsule exposed). You can
set the microphone directly on the inside of the piano and adjust it
accordingly.

Specifically, we use a Crown CM-700. We tried several condenser mics and
that gave us the best sound.

squig

transmogrifa wrote:
> I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but this
> one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a good
> answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
> piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing is
> this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere setting
> where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano and this
> would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I thought
> about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I have
> the old radio shack PZM.
>
> Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
>
> Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com
>
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 7:52:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:11:17 +0200, Lorin David Schultz wrote:

> "transmogrifa" <mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote:
>>
>> [...] The situation would be micing a baby grand [...] in a club/bar
>> atmosphere. The thing is this, I can't open the lid because it is an
>> intimate atmosphere setting where people frequently come up and sit
>> right at the piano and this would block the eye line of the player
>> which is a no go.
>
> We have the same problem in TV... gotta close the damn lid so it won't
> block sight lines. Our solution was to cut a little black block that
> holds the lid open about an inch or so, just enough to slide in a boom
> stand. We then hung an XY pair of KM184 inside. Exactly where we hung
> them depended on the sound we were after, but usually about mid span,
> maybe a foot back from the hammers.

The lid can be removed without problems, just 2 small pins.

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 8:49:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

transmogrifa wrote:

> I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but this
> one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a good
> answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
> piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing is
> this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere setting
> where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano and this
> would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I thought
> about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I have
> the old radio shack PZM.

I've done that in a few situations. It can work. Success depends on the
SPL and nature of ambient sounds unrelated to piano music.

--
ha
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 9:03:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< No and no... The only thing I've found 'duct' tape uniquely perfect
for is ...>>

You are correct, I was merely substituting "duct" in the generic sense;
like people that call soft drinks a coke, or they want a Xerox copy of
something. People around here still come up and ask for
a piece duct tape after I've been handing them a 2" roll of cloth gaff
for years. This proves I should never take anyone's understanding of
my intent for granted.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 9:05:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< No and no... The only thing I've found 'duct' tape uniquely perfect
for is ...>>

You are correct, I was merely substituting "duct" in the generic sense;
like people that call soft drinks a coke, or they want a Xerox copy of
something. People around here still come up and ask for
a piece duct tape after I've been handing them a 2" roll of cloth gaff
for 22 years.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 9:05:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< No and no... The only thing I've found 'duct' tape uniquely perfect
for is ...>>

You are correct, I was merely substituting "duct" in the generic sense;
like people that call soft drinks a coke, or they want a Xerox copy of
something. People around here still come up and ask for
a piece duct tape after I've been handing them a 2" roll of cloth gaff
for 22 years.
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 12:42:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You also have to remember that there are lurkers here trying to learn
something about jobs they may either need to do now or in the future. So I
don't think we want them going out and buying duct tape anymore than we'd
want somebody using duct tape gaffing down our cables. Plus, if these same
lurkers really want to know the cost of doing business, it's pretty
appropriate to mention the proper equipment so they can do the pricing. You
can buy a case of duct tape for the price of a few rolls of good gaffing
tape.

Not picking on you, just pointing out something that we often forget. There
are undoubtedly a lot more lurkers here than posting newbies. I get a
number of emails per week from lurkers about what we try to include in our
posts, so I actually see some results by thinking outside of an OP's actual
question. I also get called down on it once in a while! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"psalter" <psalter@opry.com> wrote in message
news:1114124792.845928.62810@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> << No and no... The only thing I've found 'duct' tape uniquely perfect
> for is ...>>
>
> You are correct, I was merely substituting "duct" in the generic sense;
> like people that call soft drinks a coke, or they want a Xerox copy of
> something. People around here still come up and ask for
> a piece duct tape after I've been handing them a 2" roll of cloth gaff
> for years. This proves I should never take anyone's understanding of
> my intent for granted.
>
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 12:43:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Piano bar type of situation as I recall, which means no place to set drinks
if people sit around the piano.

Plus, with glasses on the strings, the piano sounds funny! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Chel van Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote in message
news:3cpphhF6r31lpU1@individual.net...
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:11:17 +0200, Lorin David Schultz wrote:
>
> > "transmogrifa" <mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...] The situation would be micing a baby grand [...] in a club/bar
> >> atmosphere. The thing is this, I can't open the lid because it is an
> >> intimate atmosphere setting where people frequently come up and sit
> >> right at the piano and this would block the eye line of the player
> >> which is a no go.
> >
> > We have the same problem in TV... gotta close the damn lid so it won't
> > block sight lines. Our solution was to cut a little black block that
> > holds the lid open about an inch or so, just enough to slide in a boom
> > stand. We then hung an XY pair of KM184 inside. Exactly where we hung
> > them depended on the sound we were after, but usually about mid span,
> > maybe a foot back from the hammers.
>
> The lid can be removed without problems, just 2 small pins.
>
> --
> Chel van Gennip
> Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 12:45:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Well, if you recall John, we got some pretty good piano recording from that
Knabe over at the Episcopal church by using the addition of the PZM (or was
it the Lav?) along with the KM84s. If we could mic that piano to get that
good of sound than we must be either very good or very lucky! I think
probably the latter. <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message
news:BE8D1CA8.6102%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com...
> On 4/20/05 8:41 PM, in article
> 1114044079.521440.34750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "transmogrifa"
> <mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote:
>
> > I know a ton of piano micing questions have been asked here but this
> > one still seems unique and a review of them didn't seem to give a good
> > answer. The situation would be micing a baby grand (a short scale
> > piano, not sure if it is baby) in a club/bar atmosphere. The thing is
> > this, I can't open the lid because it is an intimate atmosphere setting
> > where people frequently come up and sit right at the piano and this
> > would block the eye line of the player which is a no go. I thought
> > about the PZM on the floor with some kind of padding underneath. I have
> > the old radio shack PZM.
>
> The pzm mounted on the underside of the lid ...
> WHERE under the lid? Your Ears Will Know
>
> or any decent omni same place... I once did this in a panic with a couple
> of $100 SHURE SM11 lavs and got REALLY lucky with the specific Steinway D
> and with position, it was one of the most realistic piano sounds I've ever
> gotten...
>
> When you have to be INSIDE of (or just closer than 4' to) the instrument,
an
> omni is your salvation (which is why PZM's do what they do).
> That I or anybody get acceptable piano sounds out of cards-in-close
> continues to amaze me.
>
> Thank you Dick Rosmini...
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 5:05:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/22/05 8:45 AM, in article qoGdnbtCzrYubPXfRVn-iA@rcn.net, "Roger W.
Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:

> Well, if you recall John, we got some pretty good piano recording from that
> Knabe over at the Episcopal church by using the addition of the PZM (or was
> it the Lav?) along with the KM84s.

Ummmm.... I think it was a last-minute kneejerk CMA placement of an omni
(the countryman lav I think?) on th eunderside of the lid to fill a spare
track 'In Case'. That poor old instrument really deserved the overhaul they
were trying to raise money for! Gorgeous instrument... 1920's IIRR? Lovely
glowing mahagony-esqe wood... And aside from the mechanical Issues, one of
the singularly most FORWARD (dare I say aggressive) sounding instruments
I've ever come across that still sounded Marvelous.

>If we could mic that piano to get that
> good of sound than we must be either very good or very lucky! I think
> probably the latter. <g>

Indeed...
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 7:33:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:43:10 +0200, Roger W. Norman wrote:
>> The lid can be removed without problems, just 2 small pins.
>
> Piano bar type of situation as I recall, which means no place to set
> drinks if people sit around the piano.

Even with a closed lid, there is no place on the piano to set drinks.

--
Chel van Gennip
Visi Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 7:33:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ever seen Jerry Lewis' The Nutty Professor?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Chel van Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote in message
news:3cscorF6d616aU1@individual.net...
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:43:10 +0200, Roger W. Norman wrote:
> >> The lid can be removed without problems, just 2 small pins.
> >
> > Piano bar type of situation as I recall, which means no place to set
> > drinks if people sit around the piano.
>
> Even with a closed lid, there is no place on the piano to set drinks.
>
> --
> Chel van Gennip
> Visi Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
!