problem with live "vocals"

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"Bert Aerts" <bert_aerts@advalvas.be> wrote in message news:6894667a.0504230243.5ca71cab@posting.google.com...
> i'm having some trouble amplifying a rather quiet voice on a loud
> stage. it's a song wherein guitars rage hard and one guy kinda talks
> neurotic. now i'd like to have this talking in the mix so that it's
> "almost not understandable, but hearable", problem is that i have to
> pull up the gain so hard so that i absorb the whole stagesound into
> that one mic (mostly a 58) with feedback as a consequence? what could
> help?
>
> thanxx


There's really only one answer unless you buy a monstrous PA and
dedicate it to vocals... turn everyone else down.

I hate it when I could get a good recording of the whole band through
just the singer's mic. :-(

DM

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On 4/23/05 6:43 AM, in article
6894667a.0504230243.5ca71cab@posting.google.com, "Bert Aerts"
<bert_aerts@advalvas.be> wrote:

> i'm having some trouble amplifying a rather quiet voice on a loud
> stage. it's a song wherein guitars rage hard and one guy kinda talks
> neurotic. now i'd like to have this talking in the mix so that it's
> "almost not understandable, but hearable", problem is that i have to
> pull up the gain so hard so that i absorb the whole stagesound into
> that one mic (mostly a 58) with feedback as a consequence? what could
> help?
>
> thanxx

Everyboy
Else
Has
To Turn Down


Actually if you can still get the old CROWN handheld differoid mic you'll
nail this.
The singer must learn to use NO mic technique since as soon as you back off
1/2" you VANISH. Once watched a Clair Brothers setup crew play with one of
these with a guy shoving his face right into one of their big wedges set on
STUN blowing his hair back when he said "CHECK"... but NO feedback!

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Bert Aerts wrote:

> i'm having some trouble amplifying a rather quiet voice on a loud
> stage. it's a song wherein guitars rage hard and one guy kinda talks
> neurotic. now i'd like to have this talking in the mix so that it's
> "almost not understandable, but hearable", problem is that i have to
> pull up the gain so hard so that i absorb the whole stagesound into
> that one mic (mostly a 58) with feedback as a consequence? what
could
> help?

My associate and I recently did some informal comparisons of several
of the vocal mics we had on hand. I knew that the SM58 was not the
best vocal mic in the world, but I was amazed how badly it came off in
comparison with the other admittedly low-cost mediocre mics we had on
hand.

I'm no doubt any number of decades behind the tip of the technological
spear by reporting that the hypercardiods we tried (Audix OM-3, OM-5,
and OM-6) had very strong advantages in terms of picking up the
vocalist well, giving a natural sound, while avoiding much of the
sound field around him. I was even more surprised that the plain
old-tech relatively cheap condenser cardioid we tried (CAD 95) showed
a lesser, but still strong advantage in the same performance areas.

Just because the SM58 is cheap, readily available and widely accepted,
doesn't mean that its particularly good.

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In ear monitors would be ideal, certainly for keeping the stage volume sane

Rick Hollett
"Bert Aerts" <bert_aerts@advalvas.be> wrote in message
news:6894667a.0504230243.5ca71cab@posting.google.com...
> i'm having some trouble amplifying a rather quiet voice on a loud
> stage. it's a song wherein guitars rage hard and one guy kinda talks
> neurotic. now i'd like to have this talking in the mix so that it's
> "almost not understandable, but hearable", problem is that i have to
> pull up the gain so hard so that i absorb the whole stagesound into
> that one mic (mostly a 58) with feedback as a consequence? what could
> help?
>
> thanxx

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Unless it's in the rider of a 'major', I never put up overheads on a stage
> smaller than 30w by 20d in a venue that seats less than 500.... any more
> than one or two vocals and we've got more 'overheads' than we'll ever
> need. (I also pray for non-singing drummers). In many cases that have
> the kind of volume we're obviously talking about here, if there are three
> vocals across the front, I don't need anything in the PA but kick, toms,
> and those vocal mics unless I'm recording. I try to avoid shows like that
> these days.
>
> DM
>

Sounds like SM58's with compressors on them. Whenever there's drums in
small venues my limit for 58's is one, and the person insisting on using it
better have a damn good reason. And I don't hesitate to wash and dry mic
caps if it's a matter of hygene, anything to get tighter pattern mics going.
Then I put a compressor/limiter on a subgroup so I can switch the mic(s)
being compressed without repatching, fed out the subgroup insert (to prevent
it from going to main mix) and back through a full strip for post auxes.
Rarely will I have more than one vocal mic compressed under those
circumstances, and virtually never three.

And a mic I'm starting to like for overheads is the Audix F15. It's a cheap
and frankly rather trashy-sounding mic in the studio, but it has a strong
top octave that finds its way past the harsh 3-6kHz of cymbals at close
range, which is the only reason I put overheads up in small rooms. The F15
worked a lot better for that than many much silkier (and expensive) mics for
the blues/rock bands I've tried them with, though it's probably a little
rough for mellower acts.

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On 4/24/05 10:45 AM, in article
1114353941.971175.108170@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "jmuirman1@aol.com"
<jmuirman1@aol.com> wrote:

> Try a used AKG c535 (I have purchased on ebay for $125). The C535 is a
> condenser with a very tight pattern.

OK... I keep hearing this and have NO clue where it came from.
Known and used these for AGES and that's the OPPOSITE of why I grab one...

The 535 is a top-drawer mic designed in the early-80's as a dedicated vocal
mic of Mercedes calibre and succeeds marvelously in reflecting it's heritage
to the 451/CK1 series of mics. As such (and the singular reason I have and
love them) is that it's is a CLASSIC cardioid pattern across most of its
range and beyond that KEEPS a good spectral match over most of its front
pattern. It's all of 5 dB down or so at 90deg off-axis (except at EXTREME hi
end where it narrows), hardly MY idea of a 'tight' pattern, and BECAUSE of
all that it:

A- Sounds wonderful even with singers with poor technique

B- helps in stage sound, by dint of its even coverage, by not causing odd
changing feedback points when it's moved or the performer moves in front of
it, and whatever it DOES pick up in the free field doesn't sound 'odd'.

C- doubles as a VERY desirable Anything Mic.

When these things plummeted from the $500+ range to the $200+ range several
years back I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. They should be flying out
store doors by the handful....
But 'tight pattern'?

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SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote about the C535:
>
>When these things plummeted from the $500+ range to the $200+ range several
>years back I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. They should be flying out
>store doors by the handful....
>But 'tight pattern'?

Well, compared with an SM-58, it's got a very tight pattern. Compared with
a Sennheiser 441 or a Neumann KMS105, it has a very wide pattern.

The EV 468 is another real sleeper... it has a very tight cardioid pattern
and a reasonably flat midrange with no presence peak, for about a hundred
bucks. It's a poor man's 441.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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Zigakly wrote:

> Sounds like SM58's with compressors on them. Whenever there's drums in
> small venues my limit for 58's is one, and the person insisting on using it
> better have a damn good reason.

That's the attitude that gives SR people a bad name. You want me to come
up on stage and tell you to change basses, change amps? Think about it.

If someone wants to sing into a '58, my job is to make that work as well
as I can. If it doesn't work well my job is to try to explain why. If
the singer still wants that '58, I go with it.

--
ha

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On 4/24/05 7:21 PM, in article znr1114367321k@trad, "Mike Rivers"
<mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:

>
> In article <d4gi06$t19$1@panix2.panix.com> kludge@panix.com writes:
>
>> The EV 468 is another real sleeper... it has a very tight cardioid pattern
>> and a reasonably flat midrange with no presence peak, for about a hundred
>> bucks. It's a poor man's 441.
>
> But it just doesn't LOOK like a vocal mic. You know how important that
> is.

Man, does the BLUE ball mic in the BLUE spiderweb look like a vocal mic or
what!

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"Joe Sensor" <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote in message ...

> w.t.f? You seem to be making the most noise and it has nothing to do
> with you.


Didn't you read the subject? It's a problem with vocals.

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"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gviqvh.g0ob5m111cjxlN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> Zigakly wrote:
>
> > Sounds like SM58's with compressors on them. Whenever there's drums in
> > small venues my limit for 58's is one, and the person insisting on using
it
> > better have a damn good reason.
>
> That's the attitude that gives SR people a bad name.

Almost as bad as doing a bad mix because the vocal mics are picking up too
much drums, and then blaming the vocalists for using the wrong mics. It's a
judgment call, and I have my preferences. In my neck of the woods
performers tend to appreciate such efforts.

> You want me to come
> up on stage and tell you to change basses, change amps? Think about it.

If there was a significant problem that could be reasonably solved that way,
why not? I've lent my Ampeg to a guy for a show because his amp was acting
up, didn't hold a gun to his head or anything...

> If someone wants to sing into a '58, my job is to make that work as well
> as I can. If it doesn't work well my job is to try to explain why. If
> the singer still wants that '58, I go with it.

We disagree on the level of influence that we should have on vocal mic
selection. No big deal.