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Using Outboard Effects With MOTU 828mkII

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Anonymous
April 28, 2005 12:04:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

A buddy of mine is using a MOTU 828mkII (mainly because I recommended
it so highly).

He does not have DP, and is instead using the AudioDesk software that
came with the 828mkII. He is using a Mac G5 laptop running OS-X.

He asked me a simple enough question, but it seems that I really wasn't
able to answer it. He lives in another state, so I can't look at his
recording rig firsthand and try to work it out, so I'm turning to you
folks.

HIS QUESTION: "How can I record a track using my outboard
hardware-based effects in real time and have the effect show up on the
recorded track...AND in the headphone monitor mix while I'm recording
it?"

It seems that my friend wants to use some outboard gear much like they
did in the old days, where the effect was applied DURING RECORDING and
thus would be committed to tape along with the performance--a decidedly
NON-reversable way of recording.

I tried to lecture him on the advantages of using plug-ins--mainly how
a plug-in can easily be taken out of the mix if you didn't like what it
did--but my friend still insists on being able to use outboard gear.

I'm not familiar enough with AudioDesk, since I never used it except to
do test tracks when I first got my 828 and then quickly moved on to
other software, so I really wasn't able to answer this question with
any degree of certainty.

The 828mkII has a lot of balanced ins/outs for a variety of uses, but I
don't know how AudioDesk handles these connections or even IF AudioDesk
can handle these connections.

Can anyone help?
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 3:56:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

EADGBE wrote:
> A buddy of mine is using a MOTU 828mkII (mainly because I recommended
> it so highly).
>
> He does not have DP, and is instead using the AudioDesk software that
> came with the 828mkII. He is using a Mac G5 laptop running OS-X.
>
> He asked me a simple enough question, but it seems that I really wasn't
> able to answer it. He lives in another state, so I can't look at his
> recording rig firsthand and try to work it out, so I'm turning to you
> folks.
>
> HIS QUESTION: "How can I record a track using my outboard
> hardware-based effects in real time and have the effect show up on the
> recorded track...AND in the headphone monitor mix while I'm recording
> it?"

Well the obvious answer if it's a 100% mix scenario (like a compressor
or an EQ) is just to run it in-line, i.e: Mic-> Compressor-> 828. That
way you'll get the vocal printed with the effect in a way that would
prevent any later seperation.

If it's a situation where you need to mix the dry with the wet (like
reverb) then you need to patch the output of 3 (for example) into the
line input of the Effects box, and take the output of the Effects into
the input of #3 on the 828. You essentially just made an insert,
treating the 828 like a patchbay.

Next comes the part that varies depending on the software you're using.
If the mic is going the mic pre on input #1 on the 828, then create an
aux send/bus and send the signal to Output #3. You should be able to
vary the amount of level going to that output, which is of course
connected to the input of the effects hardware. Create a new track now
that is set to record/monitor the input of channel three. This is your
effect's return back into the system. Signal flow is basically this: Mic
-> 828 input#1 -> software aux/send/bus -> 828 output #3-> input FX
hardware -> output FX hardware -> 828 input#3.

In above example, track 1 and track 3 should be armed/monitoring the
input and everything should be gravy (Track one recording the dry vox,
and Track 3 recording the effects return). One note of caution though,
there will be latency going through the the ins and outs of the 828 to
get the hardware effects. Should be only about 4-5ms if your systems
optimized, but that can still mess stuff up (phasing) depending on the
effect.

>
*snip*
>
> Can anyone help?
>
Hope this helps,

Mike
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 4:36:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rocha wrote:
> there will be latency going through the the ins and outs of the 828

Remember, this is a mkII. That model has an internal DSP mixer which can
be used as a near-zero-latency patch bay; it's specifically intended to
allow flexible assignment of spare channels as aux sends and aux returns
for just this sort of task. The same routing flexibility can be used to
send that return to the monitors.

Remind your friend that one can record both the dry and wet versions,
since both are passing through the 828mkII. That way if he decides he
didn't like the way the effects came out, he can try again in the studio
-- either via a plug-in, or by running the channel out, through the
external box, and back in. That loop does intoduce some latency, though
one could juggle the timing offset of the effects-return track to undo
that delay.
Related resources
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 11:11:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike:
He has actually tried your recommended method, but there are TWO
problems with it: First, you CANNOT hear the effect when you mix the
song down to stereo and burn it onto a CD. The reason seems to be that
in order to be burned, all track outputs MUST be set to the main stereo
outputs, which totally bypasses your Output #3 recommendation, The
second problem is that you can hear the effect ONLY DURING PLAYBACK,
and only because the newly-recorded track is being looped through the
effect as it plays... in other words, you are hearing the effect
working in REAL TIME, not on the recording!

Mike Rocha wrote:
> EADGBE wrote:
> > A buddy of mine is using a MOTU 828mkII (mainly because I
recommended
> > it so highly).
> >
> > He does not have DP, and is instead using the AudioDesk software
that
> > came with the 828mkII. He is using a Mac G5 laptop running OS-X.
> >
> > He asked me a simple enough question, but it seems that I really
wasn't
> > able to answer it. He lives in another state, so I can't look at
his
> > recording rig firsthand and try to work it out, so I'm turning to
you
> > folks.
> >
> > HIS QUESTION: "How can I record a track using my outboard
> > hardware-based effects in real time and have the effect show up on
the
> > recorded track...AND in the headphone monitor mix while I'm
recording
> > it?"
>
> Well the obvious answer if it's a 100% mix scenario (like a
compressor
> or an EQ) is just to run it in-line, i.e: Mic-> Compressor-> 828.
That
> way you'll get the vocal printed with the effect in a way that would
> prevent any later seperation.
>
> If it's a situation where you need to mix the dry with the wet (like
> reverb) then you need to patch the output of 3 (for example) into the

> line input of the Effects box, and take the output of the Effects
into
> the input of #3 on the 828. You essentially just made an insert,
> treating the 828 like a patchbay.
>
> Next comes the part that varies depending on the software you're
using.
> If the mic is going the mic pre on input #1 on the 828, then create
an
> aux send/bus and send the signal to Output #3. You should be able to
> vary the amount of level going to that output, which is of course
> connected to the input of the effects hardware. Create a new track
now
> that is set to record/monitor the input of channel three. This is
your
> effect's return back into the system. Signal flow is basically this:
Mic
> -> 828 input#1 -> software aux/send/bus -> 828 output #3-> input FX
> hardware -> output FX hardware -> 828 input#3.
>
> In above example, track 1 and track 3 should be armed/monitoring the
> input and everything should be gravy (Track one recording the dry
vox,
> and Track 3 recording the effects return). One note of caution
though,
> there will be latency going through the the ins and outs of the 828
to
> get the hardware effects. Should be only about 4-5ms if your systems
> optimized, but that can still mess stuff up (phasing) depending on
the
> effect.
>
> >
> *snip*
> >
> > Can anyone help?
> >
> Hope this helps,
>
> Mike
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 4:29:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ok, not exactly sure if i follow what's happening in your case but lemme
try to clarify:

EADGBE wrote:
> Mike:
> He has actually tried your recommended method, but there are TWO
> problems with it: First, you CANNOT hear the effect when you mix the
> song down to stereo and burn it onto a CD. The reason seems to be that
> in order to be burned, all track outputs MUST be set to the main stereo
> outputs, which totally bypasses your Output #3 recommendation,

This shouldn't be the case. All Tracks outputs are still assigned to the
main 1-2 Output. It is only the bus send that is pointing to the output
#3. The bus send on the dry mic input will essentially 'mult' or make a
copy of the signal on channel 1 and send it wherever you want (in this
case it's the hardware effects at Output #3). Refer to page 122 of your
manual, it talks all about the sends on this page.

> The
> second problem is that you can hear the effect ONLY DURING PLAYBACK,
> and only because the newly-recorded track is being looped through the
> effect as it plays... in other words, you are hearing the effect
> working in REAL TIME, not on the recording!

The Input #1 channel should be armed to record, and the Input #3 channel
should be armed to record as well. When you sing your pass, audiodesk
will record whatever is at input number 1 and 3 (in this case dry vox,
then effects return respectively). When you are done recording you
should have two seperate tracks. One with the dry vocal and one with the
effected vocals. On playback, you can disarm the tracks so that you can
no longer monitor the live inputs. You are essentially puting the whole
thing in playback mode only. There should be two newly recorded tracks
for every on recorded pass.

Good luck,

Mike

>
> Mike Rocha wrote:
>
>>EADGBE wrote:
>>
>>>A buddy of mine is using a MOTU 828mkII (mainly because I
>
> recommended
>
>>>it so highly).
>>>
>>>He does not have DP, and is instead using the AudioDesk software
>
> that
>
>>>came with the 828mkII. He is using a Mac G5 laptop running OS-X.
>>>
>>>He asked me a simple enough question, but it seems that I really
>
> wasn't
>
>>>able to answer it. He lives in another state, so I can't look at
>
> his
>
>>>recording rig firsthand and try to work it out, so I'm turning to
>
> you
>
>>>folks.
>>>
>>>HIS QUESTION: "How can I record a track using my outboard
>>>hardware-based effects in real time and have the effect show up on
>
> the
>
>>>recorded track...AND in the headphone monitor mix while I'm
>
> recording
>
>>>it?"
>>
>>Well the obvious answer if it's a 100% mix scenario (like a
>
> compressor
>
>>or an EQ) is just to run it in-line, i.e: Mic-> Compressor-> 828.
>
> That
>
>>way you'll get the vocal printed with the effect in a way that would
>>prevent any later seperation.
>>
>>If it's a situation where you need to mix the dry with the wet (like
>>reverb) then you need to patch the output of 3 (for example) into the
>
>
>>line input of the Effects box, and take the output of the Effects
>
> into
>
>>the input of #3 on the 828. You essentially just made an insert,
>>treating the 828 like a patchbay.
>>
>>Next comes the part that varies depending on the software you're
>
> using.
>
>>If the mic is going the mic pre on input #1 on the 828, then create
>
> an
>
>>aux send/bus and send the signal to Output #3. You should be able to
>>vary the amount of level going to that output, which is of course
>>connected to the input of the effects hardware. Create a new track
>
> now
>
>>that is set to record/monitor the input of channel three. This is
>
> your
>
>>effect's return back into the system. Signal flow is basically this:
>
> Mic
>
>>-> 828 input#1 -> software aux/send/bus -> 828 output #3-> input FX
>>hardware -> output FX hardware -> 828 input#3.
>>
>>In above example, track 1 and track 3 should be armed/monitoring the
>>input and everything should be gravy (Track one recording the dry
>
> vox,
>
>>and Track 3 recording the effects return). One note of caution
>
> though,
>
>>there will be latency going through the the ins and outs of the 828
>
> to
>
>>get the hardware effects. Should be only about 4-5ms if your systems
>>optimized, but that can still mess stuff up (phasing) depending on
>
> the
>
>>effect.
>>
>> >
>>*snip*
>>
>>>Can anyone help?
>>>
>>
>>Hope this helps,
>>
>>Mike
>
>
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 4:32:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Good point Joe. On a side note, i always found it a pain that you can
only do this direct monitoring for a stereo pair of channels at a time.
Lame-o.

Mike

Joe Kesselman wrote:

>> there will be latency going through the the ins and outs of the 828
>
>
> Remember, this is a mkII. That model has an internal DSP mixer which can
> be used as a near-zero-latency patch bay; it's specifically intended to
> allow flexible assignment of spare channels as aux sends and aux returns
> for just this sort of task. The same routing flexibility can be used to
> send that return to the monitors.
>
> Remind your friend that one can record both the dry and wet versions,
> since both are passing through the 828mkII. That way if he decides he
> didn't like the way the effects came out, he can try again in the studio
> -- either via a plug-in, or by running the channel out, through the
> external box, and back in. That loop does intoduce some latency, though
> one could juggle the timing offset of the effects-return track to undo
> that delay.
!