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Guitar pickups saturating?

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Anonymous
April 28, 2005 8:54:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi folks:

Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.

Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
turned down to very low levels.

I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and I've
never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question, spoken
as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups saturate?
'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem with
G&L's house pickups?

Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.

Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups, but the
thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay attention
to.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 8:54:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>Hi folks:
>
>Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
>Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
>active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
>Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
>volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
>softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
>device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
>amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
>turned down to very low levels.

Yeah... that's weird alright. Have you popped it open to check for
loose leads? Is everything else working right? I'd check the ground
leads, and the leads to the jack.




jtougas

listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go

e.e. cummings
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 8:54:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler wrote:
> Hi folks:
>
> Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
> Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive
and
> active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
> Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a
certain
> volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the
output
> softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a
passive
> device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of
the
> amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the
guitar
> turned down to very low levels.
>
> I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and
I've
> never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question,
spoken
> as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups
saturate?
> 'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem
with
> G&L's house pickups?
>
> Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.
>
> Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups,
but the
> thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay
attention
> to.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

I'd be tempted to say a loose magnet,
but both at the same time ? ... unlikely.
Or a low battery in an active circuit
but unless it's modified the G&L site
shows only passive circuitry in the ASAT's.

hmmmm ..... ?

rd
Related resources
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 10:28:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"jtougas" <jatougasNOSPAM@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1lr071h4ftb0rfio5ohrmji2363nu1io1q@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
> <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi folks:
> >
> >Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
> >Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
> >active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
> >
> >Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a
certain
> >volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
> >softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a
passive
> >device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
> >amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the
guitar
> >turned down to very low levels.
>
> Yeah... that's weird alright. Have you popped it open to check for
> loose leads? Is everything else working right? I'd check the ground
> leads, and the leads to the jack.

It's not intermittent, not cutting out. It's just got a ceiling on how hard
I can play it, above which it compresses. Everything else is working right
now that my friend Joe did a really good setup on it. Pots and jacks are
clean.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 1:44:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi Paul,

> Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords,
> it reaches a certain volume and then quits; strumming
> louder actually seems to make the output softer.
> It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this
> is a passive device.

while not having seen your guitar or heard the effect,
one of the possible reasons could be the following:

The output signal of a guitar pickup comes from the
(steel) strings slightly modulating the magnetic
field produced by the pickup magnet(s). This field
modulation is very small, so one needs many pickup
coil windings in order to generate a useable voltage
and a preamplifier (stage) to drive the power stage
of the guitar amp.

Due to the smallness of the field modulation I doubt
that any saturation effect comes into play here.
Moreover, saturation would result in some kind of
distortion, like in a highly driven Marshall amp.

However, the magnetic field produced by the pickup
magnets is not homogeneous, especially when the
magnetic structure of the pickup consists of six
individual magnets.

So my presumption is that, when you strum loud chords,
the strings move out of the center area of their respective
magnet to an outside region where the magnetic field
is not strong enough to produce a voltage that follows
the greater excursion of the string.

There is a somewhat similar effect with loudspeakers
driven hard so that the voice coil leaves the magnetic
field of the gap resulting in some kind of compression
effect as well.

Best regards,

Dieter Michel
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 1:45:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:54:46 -0400, Paul Stamler wrote
(in article <q0_be.135683$cg1.20330@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>):

> Hi folks:
>
> Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
> Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
> active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
> Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
> volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
> softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
> device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
> amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
> turned down to very low levels.
>
> I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and I've
> never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question, spoken
> as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups saturate?
> 'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem with
> G&L's house pickups?
>
> Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.
>
> Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups, but the
> thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay attention
> to.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>

You still using them aluminum strings? :) 

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 4:53:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've had bad solder joints, or even a faulty or loose intput jack have
this kind of effect. The vibration from the stumming is probably
causing a partial short. I would check out the wiring in the guitar
and perhaps touch up the solder joints. I assume you've tried it
through more than one amp, so you are certain it's the guitar.

Al

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>Hi folks:
>
>Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
>Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
>active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
>Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
>volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
>softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
>device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
>amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
>turned down to very low levels.
>
>I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and I've
>never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question, spoken
>as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups saturate?
>'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem with
>G&L's house pickups?
>
>Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.
>
>Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups, but the
>thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay attention
>to.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 7:41:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On the whole, Leo's later pickups are incredibly efficient and the RULE is
to LOWER the darned things much farther than you'd ever think to with normal
pups and THAt is actually where you start. They have a bigger mag field and
all that goes with that: they should be farther away to work right AND at
'normal' distances you;re already into that Evil Zone where the mag field is
actively screwing up the actual vibration pattern of the string.

Ask here:

http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/gldp/index.php3



On 4/28/05 12:54 AM, in article
q0_be.135683$cg1.20330@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
> Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
> Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
> active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
> Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
> volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
> softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
> device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
> amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
> turned down to very low levels.
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 10:11:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>Hi folks:
>
>Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
>Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
>active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
>Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
>volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
>softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
>device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
>amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
>turned down to very low levels.
>
>I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and I've
>never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question, spoken
>as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups saturate?
>'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem with
>G&L's house pickups?
>
>Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.

I'm somehow doubtful of the effect (that it's happening solely
because of the pickups or pickup/string interaction). Tony's
description sounds plausible to me, but it still seems strange. Can
you put up an mp3? Can you also turn the volume control down on the
guitar 5 to 10dB, to convince me it still happens and it's really
happening at the pickups?
Does the same thing happen with different guitar amps, and into
high-impedance instrument inputs of pre's?

Have you opened up the circuitry and looked at it? If I were going
to make a guitar do this, I'd wire the pickup output to an LED shining
on a cds cell which is part of a voltage divider between the pickup
and volume control, but I doubt the pickup would give enough current
to light the LED. If you put the cds cell in the top of the divider,
you get an expander. :) 

>Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups, but the
>thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay attention
>to.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
April 28, 2005 10:32:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>Hi folks:
>
>Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
>Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
>active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
>Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
>volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
>softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
>device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
>amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
>turned down to very low levels.
>
>I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and I've
>never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question, spoken
>as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups saturate?
>'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem with
>G&L's house pickups?
>
>Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.
>
>Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups, but the
>thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay attention
>to.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>

My $0.02 - the pickup really only responds to vertical string motion,
which is inherently limited by proximity to the fretboard etc, and
damped much more quickly due to pickup magnet hysteresis loss and by
the much higher vertical compliance of the bridge mount (due to
geometry). So although you can play harder and as a result see much
more (horizontal) string movement, neither the max vertical movement
nor the output changes much. The vertical bridge compliance will be
more of an "all over" effect, but the hysteresis loss will increase
with a power of the flux deviation, so it will tend to act only at
higher outputs, more like a compressor. This will be true of all
guitars, but may be more pronounced in yours due to the combination of
parameters, especially magnet material, magnetization and geometry -
an interesting possible tonal facet to explore. Is it a good effect?
best for certain styles?

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 10:32:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Tony" <tony_roe@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:ed7171tsld8rfopili4447uh6j6l89b2ht@4ax.com...

> My $0.02 - the pickup really only responds to vertical string motion,
> which is inherently limited by proximity to the fretboard etc, and
> damped much more quickly due to pickup magnet hysteresis loss and by
> the much higher vertical compliance of the bridge mount (due to
> geometry). So although you can play harder and as a result see much
> more (horizontal) string movement, neither the max vertical movement
> nor the output changes much. The vertical bridge compliance will be
> more of an "all over" effect, but the hysteresis loss will increase
> with a power of the flux deviation, so it will tend to act only at
> higher outputs, more like a compressor. This will be true of all
> guitars, but may be more pronounced in yours due to the combination of
> parameters, especially magnet material, magnetization and geometry -
> an interesting possible tonal facet to explore. Is it a good effect?
> best for certain styles?

I have not found it to be good, no. If I want something to compress and
distort, I prefer it to be the amp. This just sounds, well, cheap.

Peace,
Paul
April 28, 2005 10:35:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:32:44 +1000, Tony <tony_roe@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
><pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi folks:
>>
>>Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
>>Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
>>active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>>
>>Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
>>volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
>>softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
>>device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
>>amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
>>turned down to very low levels.
>>
>>I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and I've
>>never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question, spoken
>>as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups saturate?
>>'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem with
>>G&L's house pickups?
>>
>>Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.
>>
>>Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups, but the
>>thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay attention
>>to.
>>
>>Peace,
>>Paul
>>
>
>My $0.02 - the pickup really only responds to vertical string motion,
>which is inherently limited by proximity to the fretboard etc, and
>damped much more quickly due to pickup magnet hysteresis loss and by
>the much higher vertical compliance of the bridge mount (due to
>geometry). So although you can play harder and as a result see much
>more (horizontal) string movement, neither the max vertical movement
>nor the output changes much. The vertical bridge compliance will be
>more of an "all over" effect, but the hysteresis loss will increase
>with a power of the flux deviation, so it will tend to act only at
>higher outputs, more like a compressor. This will be true of all
>guitars, but may be more pronounced in yours due to the combination of
>parameters, especially magnet material, magnetization and geometry -
>an interesting possible tonal facet to explore. Is it a good effect?
>best for certain styles?
>
>Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)

Forgot to add - if the above magnetic effect is the main cause, it
should be possible to reduce it by backing the pickups well away from
the strings, which would make no difference if it was a bridge
compliance effect.

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 11:35:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ben Bradley" <ben_nospam_bradley@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:l29271l7h5glean9j4oflj3fn51q86vk0o@4ax.com...

> I'm somehow doubtful of the effect (that it's happening solely
> because of the pickups or pickup/string interaction). Tony's
> description sounds plausible to me, but it still seems strange. Can
> you put up an mp3?

I'll do what I can -- this next week is nuts, but I'll try.

> Can you also turn the volume control down on the
> guitar 5 to 10dB, to convince me it still happens and it's really
> happening at the pickups?
> Does the same thing happen with different guitar amps, and into
> high-impedance instrument inputs of pre's?

It's happened on a couple of different amps, my Kalamazoo Model One and a
Champ. And yeah, it really did happen with the guitar level control way
down. I'll see if I can cut some kind of demo.

> Have you opened up the circuitry and looked at it? If I were going
> to make a guitar do this, I'd wire the pickup output to an LED shining
> on a cds cell which is part of a voltage divider between the pickup
> and volume control, but I doubt the pickup would give enough current
> to light the LED. If you put the cds cell in the top of the divider,
> you get an expander. :) 

Well, I don't think anyone has installed such a thing in this guitar -- it
was originally owned by a collector, not a player -- but I'll take a look.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 28, 2005 11:39:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gvq82s.1fxrww11gsg562N%walkinay@thegrid.net...

> I could be wayy off but...
>
> I've read the other replies so far, and right away I had a different
> idea. You ever had this same thing happen while playing an unamplified
> acoustic guitar? I have, particularly with a friend's big and boxy Guild
> rosewood jumbo.* Push it past a certain point and the volume goes
> _down_. I think it might have something to do with smashing the strings
> to an unmusical point (might say exciting them past the point where they
> generate something related directly to the pitches one expected), and
> that they thereafter don't actually vibrate purely and efficiently.
> Drive them outside of their acceptable envelope and they don't exhibit
> proper motion when they snap back. Their effective resonance at their
> fundamental is reduced, their motion isn't like the lovely diagrams of
> string movement, and their output is reduced.

Yes, I've experienced that; my Martin 00-18 will do that to some extent. But
nowhere near as soon as this G&L. And I messed around with a Fender
1952-replica Tele at G****r C****r a couple of days ago, and the Fender
didn't do it at all. I have a heavy touch on the electric sometime, but this
G&L is the only one that behaved in this way.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 2:42:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler wrote:

> "hank alrich" wrote...

> > I could be wayy off but...

> > I've read the other replies so far, and right away I had a different
> > idea. You ever had this same thing happen while playing an unamplified
> > acoustic guitar? I have, particularly with a friend's big and boxy Guild
> > rosewood jumbo.* Push it past a certain point and the volume goes
> > _down_. I think it might have something to do with smashing the strings
> > to an unmusical point (might say exciting them past the point where they
> > generate something related directly to the pitches one expected), and
> > that they thereafter don't actually vibrate purely and efficiently.
> > Drive them outside of their acceptable envelope and they don't exhibit
> > proper motion when they snap back. Their effective resonance at their
> > fundamental is reduced, their motion isn't like the lovely diagrams of
> > string movement, and their output is reduced.

> Yes, I've experienced that; my Martin 00-18 will do that to some extent. But
> nowhere near as soon as this G&L. And I messed around with a Fender
> 1952-replica Tele at G****r C****r a couple of days ago, and the Fender
> didn't do it at all. I have a heavy touch on the electric sometime, but this
> G&L is the only one that behaved in this way.

Interesting. Tired different strings?

I've only played one ASAT, but several of the G & L Strat-types, and
they were all among the best I've played for their type.

--
ha
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 2:55:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/28/05 6:42 PM, in article 1gvqjgk.1hiudza10rfvvcN%walkinay@thegrid.net,
"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:

>
> I've only played one ASAT, but several of the G & L Strat-types, and
> they were all among the best I've played for their type.

Indeed, hence my post earlier that it's probably the usual (and setting up a
G&L like a 'normal' guitar Is the usual mistake) pickup height thing, though
if indeed the 'hitting-the-thing-too-hard' syndrome is happening TOO, then
heavier strings might be in order.

I'm still using 1964 technology, though I was looking longingly at the Bill
Lawrence replacements...
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 6:26:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the action set
too low...
Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar acoustically?

Peter
---
http://www.merlinsound.de

playon wrote:
> I've had bad solder joints, or even a faulty or loose intput jack have
> this kind of effect. The vibration from the stumming is probably
> causing a partial short. I would check out the wiring in the guitar
> and perhaps touch up the solder joints. I assume you've tried it
> through more than one amp, so you are certain it's the guitar.
>
> Al
>
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
> <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks:
>>
>> Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
>> Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still
>> alive and active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house
>> G&Ls.
>>
>> Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a
>> certain volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to
>> make the output softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it,
>> but this is a passive device. I'm not talking about compression
>> effects from the input of the amplifier, either; this happens
>> equally with the level control on the guitar turned down to very low
>> levels.
>>
>> I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and
>> I've never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my
>> question, spoken as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do
>> guitar pickups saturate? 'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And
>> is this a known problem with G&L's house pickups?
>>
>> Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.
>>
>> Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups,
>> but the thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I
>> should pay attention to.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Paul

--
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 11:10:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message
news:BE96E220.6A47%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com...
> On 4/28/05 6:42 PM, in article
1gvqjgk.1hiudza10rfvvcN%walkinay@thegrid.net,
> "hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > I've only played one ASAT, but several of the G & L Strat-types, and
> > they were all among the best I've played for their type.
>
> Indeed, hence my post earlier that it's probably the usual (and setting up
a
> G&L like a 'normal' guitar Is the usual mistake) pickup height thing,
though
> if indeed the 'hitting-the-thing-too-hard' syndrome is happening TOO, then
> heavier strings might be in order.

Unfortunately, that's not in the cards, since part of the reason I'm playing
the ASAT more is that I've been having bad tendinitis problems. So I need
the light strings (009's) and low action.

And I agree with Hank -- in most respects this is one heck of a nice guitar,
now that Joe got the buzzes out. I'll see about lowering the pickups; that
might also help if the situation is Dieter's ultra-focused pole pieces.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 11:20:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
news:3ddd9vF6rur1hU1@individual.net...
> Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
> I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the action set
> too low...
> Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar
acoustically?

Bingo -- yes, not as much as when playing through an amp, but yes, and the
tipoff is that it happens the most when playing full barre chords, almost
not at all when playing a straight first-position G with three open strings.

So here are the main suggestions I've had:

1) Low action -- acoustical volume loss

2) Pickups too high

3) Pickup magnetism too tightly focused, strings moving out of field

4) Loose connections

I'm betting that it'll come down to the first three, all at once (ir really
doesn't sound like a connection problem). 1) is something I can't do
anything about, since for reasons explained in another reply I need to keep
that action low. So that I'll simply have to live with, and accept what the
guitar does well. 2) I can try adjusting the pickups downwards, which may
also help 3) to some extent.

Thanks! Any further suggestions most welcome, of course.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 11:45:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:26:38 -0400, Peter Duemmler wrote
(in article <3ddd9vF6rur1hU1@individual.net>):

> Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
> I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the action set
> too low...
> Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar acoustically?
>
> Peter

Hmm. There's a thought. Have you changed the height of the bridge? Lowering
the bridge reduces down pressure and, as a result, volume.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 3:14:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Is this happening with both pickups? What about if you run the output
to a pod or disty pedal and then into headphones? I'm sure it's not
the amp, but this would completely verify that. I have owned TONS of
guitars and many from Leo...Fenders, G&L's, Music Man, etc....none have
done this. It's really strange....

I think you're just doing it wrong.... ;-)

later,
m
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 3:17:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1flce.666707$w62.627224@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> pstamlerhell@pobox.com writes:

> So here are the main suggestions I've had:
>
> 1) Low action -- acoustical volume loss
>
> 2) Pickups too high
>
> 3) Pickup magnetism too tightly focused, strings moving out of field
>
> 4) Loose connections
>
> I'm betting that it'll come down to the first three, all at once

The position of the pickups is something that can be adjusted. But I
think that what it boils down to is that electric guitars have their
own personality and you have to learn to play them like the different
instruments they are. I play a Martin D-18 with fairly heavy strings,
pounding out open chords behind fiddlers. When I pick up an electric,
I can't even begin to play the same thing on it - it just doesn't
work. Even when I play a nice sounding D-28 it doesn't work the same
as the D-18 in that application. It tends to get boomier as I play
harder, but it doesn't reach out as well as the D-18. Gross
generalizations about mahogany vs. rosewood bodies may apply or not.

If you need for it to be louder, rather than slamming harder on the
strings, turn up the amp and try to find the dynamic range that works
for you. But then I shouldn't have to tell you how to play guitar
after all those years, just nudge you in a different direction with a
different guitar.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 6:28:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul,

raising the action just a little bit so the strings won´t be limited by the
frets should not be too hard on your playing.
It may even play easier then.
Worth a try...

--
Peter
http://www.merlinsound.de

Paul Stamler wrote:
> "Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
> news:3ddd9vF6rur1hU1@individual.net...
>> Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
>> I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the
>> action set too low...
>> Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar
>> acoustically?
>
> Bingo -- yes, not as much as when playing through an amp, but yes,
> and the tipoff is that it happens the most when playing full barre
> chords, almost not at all when playing a straight first-position G
> with three open strings.
>
> So here are the main suggestions I've had:
>
> 1) Low action -- acoustical volume loss
>
> 2) Pickups too high
>
> 3) Pickup magnetism too tightly focused, strings moving out of field
>
> 4) Loose connections
>
> I'm betting that it'll come down to the first three, all at once (ir
> really doesn't sound like a connection problem). 1) is something I
> can't do anything about, since for reasons explained in another reply
> I need to keep that action low. So that I'll simply have to live
> with, and accept what the guitar does well. 2) I can try adjusting
> the pickups downwards, which may also help 3) to some extent.
>
> Thanks! Any further suggestions most welcome, of course.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 7:56:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/29/05 3:20 AM, in article
1flce.666707$w62.627224@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

> "Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
> news:3ddd9vF6rur1hU1@individual.net...
>> Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
>> I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the action set
>> too low...
>> Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar
> acoustically?
>
> Bingo -- yes, not as much as when playing through an amp, but yes, and the
> tipoff is that it happens the most when playing full barre chords, almost
> not at all when playing a straight first-position G with three open strings.
>
> So here are the main suggestions I've had:
>
> 1) Low action -- acoustical volume loss
>
> 2) Pickups too high
>
> 3) Pickup magnetism too tightly focused, strings moving out of field
>
> 4) Loose connections
>
> I'm betting that it'll come down to the first three, all at once (ir really
> doesn't sound like a connection problem). 1) is something I can't do
> anything about, since for reasons explained in another reply I need to keep
> that action low. So that I'll simply have to live with, and accept what the
> guitar does well. 2) I can try adjusting the pickups downwards, which may
> also help 3) to some extent.
>
> Thanks! Any further suggestions most welcome, of course.
>

Sounds like you need to

KEEP the setup the way you;ve fought to get it

Drop the pickups so they doun;t contribute to the problem (if they do at
all)

Learn to play in a way that doesn;t slam the instrument that hard and letthe
amp do your work
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 10:05:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
news:3denk8F6q4qslU1@individual.net...
> Paul,
>
> raising the action just a little bit so the strings won´t be limited by
the
> frets should not be too hard on your playing.
> It may even play easier then.
> Worth a try...

Not on my hands; this isn't any minor tendinitis here. We're talking a left
hand that is constantly on the verge of not being able to play at all, and
I've already had a bit of nerve damage (not, probably, guitar-related) in
the right hand. I don't want to risk that in the left hand, no way; the
action really does need to stay as low as it is. If that means I can't wham
on the strings, so be it, but I want to explore all the pickup-related
possibilities to minimize the effect as much as possible. Haven't gotten
into the guitar yet to try lowering the pickups -- a guy has to sleep
sometime -- but I will when things calm down a little.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 10:06:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message
news:BE97D17B.6C0B%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com...

> Sounds like you need to
>
> KEEP the setup the way you;ve fought to get it
>
> Drop the pickups so they doun;t contribute to the problem (if they do at
> all)
>
> Learn to play in a way that doesn;t slam the instrument that hard and
letthe
> amp do your work

Yup; that's where it seems to be converging.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 10:20:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4/29/05 2:05 PM, in article
pHuce.162905$cg1.122712@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>
> "Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
> news:3denk8F6q4qslU1@individual.net...
>> Paul,
>>
>> raising the action just a little bit so the strings won´t be limited by
> the
>> frets should not be too hard on your playing.
>> It may even play easier then.
>> Worth a try...
>
> Not on my hands; this isn't any minor tendinitis here. We're talking a left
> hand that is constantly on the verge of not being able to play at all, and
> I've already had a bit of nerve damage (not, probably, guitar-related) in
> the right hand. I don't want to risk that in the left hand, no way; the
> action really does need to stay as low as it is. If that means I can't wham
> on the strings, so be it, but I want to explore all the pickup-related
> possibilities to minimize the effect as much as possible. Haven't gotten
> into the guitar yet to try lowering the pickups -- a guy has to sleep
> sometime -- but I will when things calm down a little.

I play a mid-level Strat (11-48) with a seriously stiff pick and have it
high enough not to buzz when I hit it. I borrowed a friend's Real Purty
black-and-pearl Tele and for the first 3 minutes I was laughable. Couldn;t
play a THING on it as it's set up with spiderweb-specials and INVISIBLY LOW
action. Everything sounded like trying to play a sitar with a screwdriver
for a pick. My face must've been a riot. I felt foolish and then I spent a
couple minutes LISTENING and PAYING ATTENTION to what the guitar was telling
me, reset the amp and from then I was fine.
April 30, 2005 12:11:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:20:29 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>"Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
>news:3ddd9vF6rur1hU1@individual.net...
>> Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
>> I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the action set
>> too low...
>> Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar
>acoustically?
>
>Bingo -- yes, not as much as when playing through an amp, but yes, and the
>tipoff is that it happens the most when playing full barre chords, almost
>not at all when playing a straight first-position G with three open strings.
>
>So here are the main suggestions I've had:
>
>1) Low action -- acoustical volume loss
>
>2) Pickups too high
>
>3) Pickup magnetism too tightly focused, strings moving out of field
>
>4) Loose connections
>
>I'm betting that it'll come down to the first three, all at once (ir really
>doesn't sound like a connection problem). 1) is something I can't do
>anything about, since for reasons explained in another reply I need to keep
>that action low. So that I'll simply have to live with, and accept what the
>guitar does well. 2) I can try adjusting the pickups downwards, which may
>also help 3) to some extent.
>
>Thanks! Any further suggestions most welcome, of course.
>
>Peace,
>Paul

Paul,

If you followed my earlier post, it could be 1 or 2 or a bridge
compliance thing, but not 3 or 4. Both 1 and 2 will have an equal
effect acoustically, so the only difference through an amp will be the
little extra compression that the amp adds. With the extra info that
full barre chords make it worse, it still looks like 1 (depending on
the nut, relief, etc) or 2 (as barre chords put the strings closer to
the pickups. But surely by now you've backed out the pickups and/or
raised the action just to see what happens?

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)
April 30, 2005 11:37:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:54:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>Hi folks:
>
>Weird, weird behavior from my guitar. It's a G&L ASAT (similar to a
>Telecaster, but not identical), from the era when Leo was still alive and
>active in the company. The pickups are, I'm told, in-house G&Ls.
>
>Well, here's the weird stuff. When I strum loud chords, it reaches a certain
>volume and then quits; strumming louder actually seems to make the output
>softer. It's as though there was a compressor on it, but this is a passive
>device. I'm not talking about compression effects from the input of the
>amplifier, either; this happens equally with the level control on the guitar
>turned down to very low levels.
>
>I've owned a few electric guitars, and played a lot of others, and I've
>never, in my life, seen something like this. So here's my question, spoken
>as a newbie to the inside of electric guitars: do guitar pickups saturate?
>'Cause that's sure what it sounds like. And is this a known problem with
>G&L's house pickups?
>
>Oh, it's happening both on the neck and bridge pickups.
>
>Yes, I know I should be asking this on one of the guitar newsgroups, but the
>thing about asking here is that I know whose opinion I should pay attention
>to.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>

1) The strings and the pickups are too close together. The plucked
strings provide relative motion and cut the lines of force exciting
the pickups and the resultant magnetic field drags on the strings,
which means they're not free to vibrate normally. This kills sustain
and maybe creates some kind of effect like your are describing. Move
the pickups down or the strings up.
People often crank the pu's as close to the strings as possible
without contact thinking they get "more sound".

2) The 80's saw a bloom of companies making penny sized pre-amps and
compressors that installed inside the pickup compartment. Narfarious
forces of a foreign government have installed one of these.

bummer about your hands. I played an ASAT once; it was good.
Anonymous
April 30, 2005 12:00:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<mwood5nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114798450.796643.232400@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Is this happening with both pickups? What about if you run the output
> to a pod or disty pedal and then into headphones? I'm sure it's not
> the amp, but this would completely verify that. I have owned TONS of
> guitars and many from Leo...Fenders, G&L's, Music Man, etc....none have
> done this. It's really strange....

Yep, both pickups, through various amps (little Kalamazoo and Champ, also
Deluxe).

> I think you're just doing it wrong.... ;-)

I think some other posters have established that, in essence, I am, trying
to squeeze too much out of a guitar with very low action, but the pickups
may also be set too high and/or be too tightly focused.

Peace,
Paul
May 1, 2005 4:09:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler wrote:
>
> "Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
> news:3ddd9vF6rur1hU1@individual.net...
> > Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
> > I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the action set
> > too low...
> > Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar
> acoustically?
>
> Bingo -- yes, not as much as when playing through an amp, but yes, and the
> tipoff is that it happens the most when playing full barre chords, almost
> not at all when playing a straight first-position G with three open strings.
>
> So here are the main suggestions I've had:
>
> 1) Low action -- acoustical volume loss
>
> 2) Pickups too high
>
> 3) Pickup magnetism too tightly focused, strings moving out of field
>
> 4) Loose connections
>

Start with #1, higher action will give the strings more room to vibrate.
#2 will cause problems with sustain and harmonics.
#3 can be verified with a string bend, how far can you bend it before
the volume drops?
Anonymous
May 1, 2005 7:13:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:20:29 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>"Peter Duemmler" <merlin@merlinsound.de> wrote in message
>news:3ddd9vF6rur1hU1@individual.net...
>> Maybe the strings are just too low on the fretboard?
>> I´ve been losing dynamics and volume when playing hard with the action set
>> too low...
>> Easy test: do you hear the volume loss when playing the guitar
>acoustically?
>
>Bingo -- yes, not as much as when playing through an amp, but yes, and the
>tipoff is that it happens the most when playing full barre chords, almost
>not at all when playing a straight first-position G with three open strings.
>
>So here are the main suggestions I've had:
>
>1) Low action -- acoustical volume loss
>
>2) Pickups too high
>
>3) Pickup magnetism too tightly focused, strings moving out of field
>
>4) Loose connections
>
>I'm betting that it'll come down to the first three, all at once (ir really
>doesn't sound like a connection problem). 1) is something I can't do
>anything about, since for reasons explained in another reply I need to keep
>that action low. So that I'll simply have to live with, and accept what the
>guitar does well. 2) I can try adjusting the pickups downwards, which may
>also help 3) to some extent.

Raising the action a minute amount may make a huge amount of
difference in the amount of vibration allowed, if that's the source of
the problem. And dropping the pickups an equally minute amount may
complete the fix.


jtougas

listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go

e.e. cummings
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 6:15:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I don't know abovt tendinitis, bvt I have some severe problems with carpel
tvnnel to the point where my hands actvally become paralyzed for a small
time with lifting something like 5 gallon water bottles. I had to change to
the 3 gallon ones, and it still gets me some times. Bvt on gvitar, I know
abovt the qvestion "who is the player that's going to show vp" becavse
sometimes my wrists will simply not allow me to play my best. Which is why
I like having a recording stvdio. As mvch as I do here in live recording
with mvsicians, I also have people contact me for projects and I can record
them when the real Roger shows vp whether it's gvitar or piano.

John has been over here complaining abovt his hands a bit of late and the
best I can tell him is to work throvgh the pain. It's the pain that stops
yov, if it's anything like me. I simply don't give it credence vnless my
hand svddenly cramps vp into a deformed likeness of itself. And I've got a
somewhat vnimportant gig coming vp playing for my 35th class revnion, so I
will have to be playing throvgh the pain regardless of whether it's bad
Roger or good Roger. And this will be after moving and setting vp my normal
live sovnd/recording setvp with 3 video cameras! <g>

The point is, yov have a choice. Either let the pain end yovr playing, or
learn to play with the pain vntil it's absolvtely impossible and yov can't.
Then sell yovr gvitars and hope that it doesn't take away yovr abilities to
move faders and rotate pots.

And if it's as bad as yov say, I'd svggest that when yov sit down to play
gvitar, yov record every second of it becavse that may be the only way yov
get to keep those ideas. Even if it means a little cheap recorder, get what
yov can play down while yov can play. That way, if and once the "bad" Pavl
keeps showing vp, yov still have yovr ideas to work on.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMvsic Stvdio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Pavl Stamler" <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:p Hvce.162905$cg1.122712@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Peter Dvemmler" <merlin@merlinsovnd.de> wrote in message
> news:3denk8F6q4qslU1@individval.net...
> > Pavl,
> >
> > raising the action jvst a little bit so the strings won´t be limited by
> the
> > frets shovld not be too hard on yovr playing.
> > It may even play easier then.
> > Worth a try...
>
> Not on my hands; this isn't any minor tendinitis here. We're talking a
left
> hand that is constantly on the verge of not being able to play at all, and
> I've already had a bit of nerve damage (not, probably, gvitar-related) in
> the right hand. I don't want to risk that in the left hand, no way; the
> action really does need to stay as low as it is. If that means I can't
wham
> on the strings, so be it, bvt I want to explore all the pickvp-related
> possibilities to minimize the effect as mvch as possible. Haven't gotten
> into the gvitar yet to try lowering the pickvps -- a gvy has to sleep
> sometime -- bvt I will when things calm down a little.
>
> Peace,
> Pavl
>
>
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 6:22:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If you think about it the pickups could easily be high enough to exert
direct effect on your strings, causing the normal round motion of the
strings to be moreso pulled down towards the magnets. Cut off the top half
of a wave form and what do you have? Half the volume (well, let's not
discuss it directly as a digital situation, but a string is a good enough
example of an analog analysis of a digital wave).

I don't think there's going to be one thing that's a fix. And I'm
absolutely positive that you won't be able to do it all at once and have a
fix that lasts with a guitar that is the age you suggest (Leo alive era).
But I think if you apply all of what has been said in terms of setup, you'll
probably start getting to what you want. Then it's a matter of the guitar
(being setup) acclimating to your environment.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Paul Stamler" <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:EWGce.672845$w62.187182@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> <mwood5nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1114798450.796643.232400@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Is this happening with both pickups? What about if you run the output
> > to a pod or disty pedal and then into headphones? I'm sure it's not
> > the amp, but this would completely verify that. I have owned TONS of
> > guitars and many from Leo...Fenders, G&L's, Music Man, etc....none have
> > done this. It's really strange....
>
> Yep, both pickups, through various amps (little Kalamazoo and Champ, also
> Deluxe).
>
> > I think you're just doing it wrong.... ;-)
>
> I think some other posters have established that, in essence, I am, trying
> to squeeze too much out of a guitar with very low action, but the pickups
> may also be set too high and/or be too tightly focused.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 11:06:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:M7WdnXl_Fahm8OvfRVn-2A@rcn.net...

> The point is, you have a choice. Either let the pain end your playing, or
> learn to play with the pain until it's absolutely impossible and you
can't.
> Then sell your guitars and hope that it doesn't take away your abilities
to
> move faders and rotate pots.

The trouble is, playing through the pain is how one gets nerve damage, and
then it's sell your guitars time. And I really, really don't wanna do that,
because as much fun as I have moving faders and twisting pots, I have a lot
more fun making the guitar notes dance so the people can.

So I'm finding ways to play with low action, one way or t'other, and with
your help and that of other denizens of this place, I'll find ways to do so
and still get some good tones. If I can't do Pete Townshend whamming any
more...well, there's not a huge amount of it in English Country Dancing (Ms.
Austen, meet Mr. Garcia and Mr. Patton), and if I really want to wham, I can
still do that on the Martin.

> And if it's as bad as you say, I'd suggest that when you sit down to play
> guitar, you record every second of it because that may be the only way you
> get to keep those ideas. Even if it means a little cheap recorder, get
what
> you can play down while you can play. That way, if and once the "bad"
Paul
> keeps showing up, you still have your ideas to work on.

Good point. Sigh.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 12:03:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I can relate. Carpel tunnel is nerve related and has ended many a player's
ability to perform, although writing is still an option for songwriters.
Arthritis ultimately killed Stephen Paul after taking something like 6 plus
inches from his height and, during the interim, caused him to agonize over
his efforts to communicate with the audio world via emails and newsgroups.

My point about playing through the pain is because I'm a musician first and
an engineer second. Many people play far better than I, but I've just lived
with music for so long I don't see any way that I'm going to accept not
doing so. So some days the good Roger shows up and it's more effort to go
into the control room and setup tracks than it's worth because sometimes,
good Roger doesn't stay around long enough. But I should probably take my
own advice about recording and you should probably ignore my advice about
playing through the pain.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Paul Stamler" <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:SpFde.690617$w62.54592@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
> news:M7WdnXl_Fahm8OvfRVn-2A@rcn.net...
>
> > The point is, you have a choice. Either let the pain end your playing,
or
> > learn to play with the pain until it's absolutely impossible and you
> can't.
> > Then sell your guitars and hope that it doesn't take away your abilities
> to
> > move faders and rotate pots.
>
> The trouble is, playing through the pain is how one gets nerve damage, and
> then it's sell your guitars time. And I really, really don't wanna do
that,
> because as much fun as I have moving faders and twisting pots, I have a
lot
> more fun making the guitar notes dance so the people can.
>
> So I'm finding ways to play with low action, one way or t'other, and with
> your help and that of other denizens of this place, I'll find ways to do
so
> and still get some good tones. If I can't do Pete Townshend whamming any
> more...well, there's not a huge amount of it in English Country Dancing
(Ms.
> Austen, meet Mr. Garcia and Mr. Patton), and if I really want to wham, I
can
> still do that on the Martin.
>
> > And if it's as bad as you say, I'd suggest that when you sit down to
play
> > guitar, you record every second of it because that may be the only way
you
> > get to keep those ideas. Even if it means a little cheap recorder, get
> what
> > you can play down while you can play. That way, if and once the "bad"
> Paul
> > keeps showing up, you still have your ideas to work on.
>
> Good point. Sigh.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 2:24:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Roger W. Norman wrote:
> I don't know abovt tendinitis, bvt I have some severe problems with
> carpel tvnnel to the point where my hands actvally become paralyzed
> for a small time with lifting something like 5 gallon water bottles.
> I had to change to the 3 gallon ones, and it still gets me some
> times. Bvt on gvitar, I know abovt the qvestion "who is the player
> that's going to show vp" becavse sometimes my wrists will simply not
> allow me to play my best. Which is why I like having a recording
> stvdio. As mvch as I do here in live recording with mvsicians, I
> also have people contact me for projects and I can record them when
> the real Roger shows vp whether it's gvitar or piano.
>
> John has been over here complaining abovt his hands a bit of late and
> the best I can tell him is to work throvgh the pain. It's the pain
> that stops yov, if it's anything like me. I simply don't give it
> credence vnless my hand svddenly cramps vp into a deformed likeness
> of itself. And I've got a somewhat vnimportant gig coming vp playing
> for my 35th class revnion, so I will have to be playing throvgh the
> pain regardless of whether it's bad Roger or good Roger. And this
> will be after moving and setting vp my normal live sovnd/recording
> setvp with 3 video cameras! <g>
>
> The point is, yov have a choice. Either let the pain end yovr
> playing, or learn to play with the pain vntil it's absolvtely
> impossible and yov can't. Then sell yovr gvitars and hope that it
> doesn't take away yovr abilities to move faders and rotate pots.
>
> And if it's as bad as yov say, I'd svggest that when yov sit down to
> play gvitar, yov record every second of it becavse that may be the
> only way yov get to keep those ideas. Even if it means a little
> cheap recorder, get what yov can play down while yov can play. That
> way, if and once the "bad" Pavl keeps showing vp, yov still have yovr
> ideas to work on.
>
>

Well, I got some flack here on my special gvitar set-vp as being
non-optimvm for sovnd, bvt it might well probably solve this problem.

I vse *light* strings.

E - 007
B - 009
G - 011
D - 016
A - 022
E - 028

With action that at the 12th fret is abovt 0.8mm from the fret itself.
Mid neck action is lower at arovnd 0.4mm

I have no callvses at all. Its dream to play. Jvst no effort at all.
Right finger tapping is a breeze, well it wovld be, if I covld actvally
do the content as well.

Most gvitars can not be set to svch a low action, so yov might have to
look for one that will. Everything has to be spot end. The negative is
that once yov are vsed to svch a set vp, yov will be vnable to play
anyone's else's gvitar. For me, probably, 99% of others gvitar are
simply vnplayable as the action is way to high and strings too tight. I
can live with that.

Kevin Aylward
informationEXTRACT@anasoft.co.vk
http://www.anasoft.co.vk
SvperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simvlator with Schematic Captvre,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 4:15:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Kevin Aylward" <see_website@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

>
>Well, I got some flack here on my special guitar set-up as being
>non-optimum for sound, but it might well probably solve this problem.
>
>I use *light* strings.
>
>E - 007
>B - 009
>G - 011
>D - 016
>A - 022
>E - 028

Where the hell do you buy .007 strings?

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 4:15:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <5ccf71500seainairbutjs8a4rcvg13d66@4ax.com>,
Harvey Gerst <harvey@ITRstudio.com> wrote:

> "Kevin Aylward" <see_website@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Well, I got some flack here on my special guitar set-up as being
> >non-optimum for sound, but it might well probably solve this problem.
> >
> >I use *light* strings.
> >
> >E - 007
> >B - 009
> >G - 011
> >D - 016
> >A - 022
> >E - 028
>
> Where the hell do you buy .007 strings?

From "Q", of course!

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 7:07:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 03 May 2005 12:15:53 -0500, Harvey Gerst
<harvey@ITRstudio.com> wrote:

>"Kevin Aylward" <see_website@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>Well, I got some flack here on my special guitar set-up as being
>>non-optimum for sound, but it might well probably solve this problem.
>>
>>I use *light* strings.
>>
>>E - 007
>>B - 009
>>G - 011
>>D - 016
>>A - 022
>>E - 028
>
>Where the hell do you buy .007 strings?

Banjo Center?
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 9:41:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 03 May 2005 12:15:53 -0500, Harvey Gerst <harvey@ITRstudio.com> wrote:
> "Kevin Aylward" <see_website@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>Well, I got some flack here on my special guitar set-up as being
>>non-optimum for sound, but it might well probably solve this problem.
>>
>>I use *light* strings.
>>
>>E - 007
>>B - 009
>>G - 011
>>D - 016
>>A - 022
>>E - 028
>
> Where the hell do you buy .007 strings?
>

Spy supply shops. They're used by 00x licensed blokes when their Sten
would be too noisy and it's too far for a well-placed crossbow bolt.

;-)
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 10:13:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <5ccf71500seainairbutjs8a4rcvg13d66@4ax.com> hargerst@airmail.net writes:

> Where the hell do you buy .007 strings?

At a light gauge banjo string store. Or get a lifteime supply (about
7600 feet, roll your own loops and balls) as a 1 pound roll of music
wire:

http://www.precisionbrand.com/products/default.asp?p_ca...

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 2:07:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Harvey Gerst wrote:
> "Kevin Aylward" <see_website@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, I got some flack here on my special guitar set-up as being
>> non-optimum for sound, but it might well probably solve this problem.
>>
>> I use *light* strings.
>>
>> E - 007
>> B - 009
>> G - 011
>> D - 016
>> A - 022
>> E - 028
>
> Where the hell do you buy .007 strings?

They are Rotosound. The ones I have, I bought around 15 years ago as a
batch of 50. I still have around 30 left. I think you get them from
Germany...possibly

Kevin Aylward
informationEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 12:38:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Garry Goodman plays a custom 12 string "bass" which uses a .150 string
low B flat at about 16 hz. The high string is tuned to f# above the
high guitar E string. The instrument has 36 frets. He uses .004
strings. This instrument has a larger frequency range than a grand
piano or a piccalo. The low notes are soooo loooow I can't even hear
it, but it moves massive amounts of air through the proper cabinet.

Contact Garry at:

Garrygoodman.com

He will tell you where to get "extreme strings".

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 1:01:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <5ccf71500seainairbutjs8a4rcvg13d66@4ax.com>
> hargerst@airmail.net writes:
>
>> Where the hell do you buy .007 strings?
>
> At a light gauge banjo string store. Or get a lifteime supply (about
> 7600 feet, roll your own loops and balls) as a 1 pound roll of music
> wire:
>
> http://www.precisionbrand.com/products/default.asp?p_ca...

Ahh,... yes. the 006. I did try them once, but even I found them a bit
too light. I still have one, somewhere.

Kevin Aylward
informationEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 5:00:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

> <mwood5nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1114798450.796643.232400@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Is this happening with both pickups? What about if you run the output
>> to a pod or disty pedal and then into headphones? I'm sure it's not
>> the amp, but this would completely verify that. I have owned TONS of
>> guitars and many from Leo...Fenders, G&L's, Music Man, etc....none have
>> done this. It's really strange....

> Yep, both pickups, through various amps (little Kalamazoo and Champ, also
> Deluxe).

>> I think you're just doing it wrong.... ;-)

> I think some other posters have established that, in essence, I am, trying
> to squeeze too much out of a guitar with very low action, but the pickups
> may also be set too high and/or be too tightly focused.

> Peace,
> Paul

Hi Paul,

Doesn't sound like you ever found the solution to the problem---maybe just
a workaround?

I actually have a similar problem with a Musicman Stingray guitar.
When I have everything opened up on the guitar, the volume actually
goes down the last 20 percent turn on the volume knob instead of
up. But, even though the Stingray is the ASATs older half brother (Leo
was making Musicman Stingrays just before he started up G&L), my
Stingray has active electronics and I believe that the ASAT does not,
so they should be different animals.

I also think that there is a sort of saturation problem. The output on the
Stingray is very hot. And I am running it into a Guyatone tube overdrive
pedal. It could be how the two are interacting.

G&L guitars have very hot outputs, even the passive ones (I have a couple of
F100s). Perhaps it has something to do with how your guitar interacts
with whatever you are plugging it into.

Sorry to come into this so late...

Rob R.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 8:33:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Rob Reedijk" <reedijk@hera.med.utoronto.ca> wrote

> Doesn't sound like you ever found the solution to the problem---maybe just
> a workaround?

> I actually have a similar problem with a Musicman Stingray guitar.
> When I have everything opened up on the guitar, the volume actually
> goes down the last 20 percent turn on the volume knob instead of
> up. But, even though the Stingray is the ASATs older half brother (Leo
> was making Musicman Stingrays just before he started up G&L), my
> Stingray has active electronics and I believe that the ASAT does not,
> so they should be different animals.
>
> I also think that there is a sort of saturation problem. The output on
the
> Stingray is very hot. And I am running it into a Guyatone tube overdrive
> pedal. It could be how the two are interacting.
>
> G&L guitars have very hot outputs, even the passive ones (I have a couple
of
> F100s). Perhaps it has something to do with how your guitar interacts
> with whatever you are plugging it into.

Hi Rob:

The problem turned out to be mechanical -- action set low, strings bottoming
out very slightly on the neck. I need the low action (tendinitis) so I've
decided to live with it.

Peace,
Paul
!