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New Yanoff+ installs spyware conduit on your Palm

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Anonymous
July 4, 2004 5:04:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
<http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and maybe
collecting private info.

Stay away from Yanoff+

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 5:04:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:
>Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
><http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and maybe
>collecting private info.

You mean the part where it says:"Unless you clicked on Yes for updates
or coupons during the install, or purchased a program through
PocketPurchase, the PocketPurchase conduit is doing nothing."?

Or maybe the part where it says: "PocketPurchase retrieves your
"HotSync" user name and device identifiers such as your device serial
number, Palm OS version and make and model of your PDA. We also place
a 4-byte ID on your computer. We send no information about what
software is on your handheld. We send no information about your
computer except for the identifier that we created."

Yeah, evil incarnate.

--
William Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 5:32:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
> Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
It is in the license and listed as an install item.
In order to install Yanoff+, ALL users must click "I Agree" to this
statement:
If you accept the terms of the agreement, click "I Agree" to continue.
You must accept the agreement to install the PocketPurchase License Manager

Strike 1.

> <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm
No, it ALLOWS users to opt-in or opt-out of receiving SPECIFIC info about
Yanoff+ sent from the Yanoff+ team (not from PocketPurchase). This
cannot be considered spam (it is on-target and opt-in).

Strike 2.

> and maybe collecting private info.

This is untrue as both the Yanoff site FAQ and the PocketPurchase site make
clear.
Why else would we publish how to disable and uninstall the PocketPurchase
conduit?
It DOES tell you that it is installing a licenase manager at install time
(but it does not
allow you to deselect it).

As far as PocketPurchase.prc goes, we are working on an update (hopefully
released in a couple of days) which will allow all users (even registered
users)
to do away with this it if they choose. This also will disable all function
of
PocketPurchase completely disabling the coinduit.

In summary:
We DO default all (Windows-PC hosted) users to install PocketPurchase.
We will shortly have an update of Yanoff+ that will work w/o
PocketPurchase.prc.
We give instructions for removing the conduit.

Strike 3.

> Hope this helps.

It does not.

P.S. You're out.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 6:51:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 01:32:42 GMT, Gregg Woodcock had this to say...


> "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
> > Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
> It is in the license and listed as an install item.
> In order to install Yanoff+, ALL users must click "I Agree" to this
> statement:
> If you accept the terms of the agreement, click "I Agree" to continue.
> You must accept the agreement to install the PocketPurchase License Manager
>
> Strike 1.
>
> > <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm
> No, it ALLOWS users to opt-in or opt-out of receiving SPECIFIC info about
> Yanoff+ sent from the Yanoff+ team (not from PocketPurchase). This
> cannot be considered spam (it is on-target and opt-in).
>
> Strike 2.
>
> > and maybe collecting private info.
>
> This is untrue as both the Yanoff site FAQ and the PocketPurchase site make
> clear.
> Why else would we publish how to disable and uninstall the PocketPurchase
> conduit?
> It DOES tell you that it is installing a licenase manager at install time
> (but it does not
> allow you to deselect it).
>
> As far as PocketPurchase.prc goes, we are working on an update (hopefully
> released in a couple of days) which will allow all users (even registered
> users)
> to do away with this it if they choose. This also will disable all function
> of
> PocketPurchase completely disabling the coinduit.
>
> In summary:
> We DO default all (Windows-PC hosted) users to install PocketPurchase.
> We will shortly have an update of Yanoff+ that will work w/o
> PocketPurchase.prc.
> We give instructions for removing the conduit.
>
> Strike 3.
>
> > Hope this helps.
>
> It does not.
>
> P.S. You're out.
>
>

Glad you admit to installing spyware on the PC and Palm.
I rest my case, SPAMMER.

Beware, be very aware.

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 9:10:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b512c95158f749f989790@news.frontiernet.net...
> On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 01:32:42 GMT, Gregg Woodcock had this to say...
>
>
> > "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
> > > Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
> > It is in the license and listed as an install item.
> > In order to install Yanoff+, ALL users must click "I Agree" to this
> > statement:
> > If you accept the terms of the agreement, click "I Agree" to continue.
> > You must accept the agreement to install the PocketPurchase License Manager
> >
> > Strike 1.
> >
> > > <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm
> > No, it ALLOWS users to opt-in or opt-out of receiving SPECIFIC info about
> > Yanoff+ sent from the Yanoff+ team (not from PocketPurchase). This
> > cannot be considered spam (it is on-target and opt-in).
> >
> > Strike 2.
> >
> > > and maybe collecting private info.
> >
> > This is untrue as both the Yanoff site FAQ and the PocketPurchase site make
> > clear.
> > Why else would we publish how to disable and uninstall the PocketPurchase
> > conduit?
> > It DOES tell you that it is installing a licenase manager at install time
> > (but it does not
> > allow you to deselect it).
> >
> > As far as PocketPurchase.prc goes, we are working on an update (hopefully
> > released in a couple of days) which will allow all users (even registered
> > users)
> > to do away with this it if they choose. This also will disable all function
> > of
> > PocketPurchase completely disabling the coinduit.
> >
> > In summary:
> > We DO default all (Windows-PC hosted) users to install PocketPurchase.
> > We will shortly have an update of Yanoff+ that will work w/o
> > PocketPurchase.prc.
> > We give instructions for removing the conduit.
> >
> > Strike 3.
> >
> > > Hope this helps.
> >
> > It does not.
> >
> > P.S. You're out.
> >
> >
>
> Glad you admit to installing spyware on the PC and Palm.
> I rest my case, SPAMMER.
>
> Beware, be very aware.
>
> --
> Hope this helps.
> Jim Anderson
> ( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger

Thanks for spilling the beans. There is too much of this going on.

Adam
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 12:03:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:
>Glad you admit to installing spyware on the PC and Palm.
>I rest my case, SPAMMER.

You still haven't explained why you think this is spyware, nor why you
think this has something to do with spam.

Or do you only run in half-duplex?

--
William Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 4:41:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Gregg Woodcock" <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wandered out of a
yurt and mumbled:

>> and maybe collecting private info.
>
>This is untrue as both the Yanoff site FAQ and the PocketPurchase site make
>clear.

When told "we will not collect any personally-identifiable
information...(blabla)" many consumers respond with a disgusted "yeah,
right". Too many of us have been screwed too many times to have any
faith in such statements.

Another thing that really ticks people off is having an advertising
conduit on software that they PAID FOR. Many can understand the need
for ads on free software (the no-free-lunch principle) but if I've
actually paid for software I don't want ads or a conduit that's used
for ads. (Strike one.)

>In summary:
>We DO default all (Windows-PC hosted) users to install PocketPurchase.

Very bad move. This sort of aggressive "push" marketing -- giving
your customers no choice -- is a good way to alienate people. (Strike
two.)

Also, your insistence on obtaining an email address in order to
download the software only adds to the suspicion that you're intent on
shoving advertisements in our face. (Strike three.)

>We will shortly have an update of Yanoff+ that will work w/o
>PocketPurchase.prc.

Will people have the option of not installing the wretched
PocketPurchase thing in the first place?

>P.S. You're out.

And so is Yanoff+, as far as I'm concerned. It's a matter of trust,
and you've lost it.



--
What do people who aren't musicians think about all day?
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 11:44:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Am Sun, 04 Jul 2004 05:10:44 +0000 schrieb Adam Helberg:


> Thanks for spilling the beans. There is too much of this going on.
>
> Adam

Thanks for posting 72 quotet lines and 1 (one!) line of own text. That is
much fun if you're polling the news mobilevia Yanoff. Thx.
SCNR

Bernd
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 1:31:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Charles Hawtrey" <chawtrey@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:40e7f63d.2370292@news.individual.net...
> "Gregg Woodcock" <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wandered out of a
> yurt and mumbled:
>
> >> and maybe collecting private info.
> >
> >This is untrue as both the Yanoff site FAQ and the PocketPurchase site
make
> >clear.
>
> When told "we will not collect any personally-identifiable
> information...(blabla)" many consumers respond with a disgusted "yeah,
> right". Too many of us have been screwed too many times to have any
> faith in such statements.

You and I, both. Nevertheless, sometimes it is the truth (as is the case
now).

> Another thing that really ticks people off is having an advertising
> conduit

Realize that the ONLY thing PocketPurchase will EVER advertise
from inside Yanoff+ (it is used by several other Palm products)
is Yanoff. We control this aspect of PocketPurchase.

> on software that they PAID FOR. Many can understand the need
> for ads on free software (the no-free-lunch principle) but if I've
> actually paid for software I don't want ads or a conduit that's used
> for ads. (Strike one.)

We are udpating the software so that PocketPurchase.prc is no longer
required even for people who purchase. Right now (and after that update),
non-regsitered users may delete it at any time. Also, the conduit
may be disabled with no ill consequences (other than it will no
longer do what it is supposed to do, obviously).
So it is (will be) entirely optional except that it must be installed by
default. We have no control over this; if we want to use
PocketPurchase (and we very definitely do) that is how the
isntaller does it. I can't say I blame them...

> >In summary:
> >We DO default all (Windows-PC hosted) users to install PocketPurchase.
>
> Very bad move. This sort of aggressive "push" marketing -- giving
> your customers no choice -- is a good way to alienate people. (Strike
> two.)

Obviously, the best way to get users to install is to default
to doing so. We are completely forthcoming about what it is,
why we use it, what it does, and how to remove it. If it bothers
anyone, they should simply remove it!

> Also, your insistence on obtaining an email address in order to
> download the software only adds to the suspicion that you're intent on
> shoving advertisements in our face. (Strike three.)

This, too, is optional and has been from the very beginning.
Re-read the popup, we are EXTREMELY clear about this.
This is a non-issue.

> >We will shortly have an update of Yanoff+ that will work w/o
> >PocketPurchase.prc.
>
> Will people have the option of not installing the wretched
> PocketPurchase thing in the first place?

No, we do not have that option. But we are making
everything short of that available.

> As far as I'm concerned. It's a matter of trust, and you've lost it.

We are, of course, sad to see users come to this conclusion but
we expected it. We are trying to walk the fine line between
reasonable compulsion and obtrusive coerciveness with an
intersection crossing through high user convenience.
This is a very tricky and touchy area and we realized when
we decided to try PocketPurchase some users would react
initially as you have. However, given that we give conscientious
users such as you ALL the information needed to make an
informed decisions AND we provide all the information
required to disable and uninstall PocketPurchase (both
the conduit and the prc), we assumed we would be able
to convince rational people that we have the best intentions
to both SELL software AND satisfy users. If the software
doesn't sell, there will be no further updates and the
experiment will be dead. We are still assuming that the
convenience of PocketPurchase will gain us more
customers than it will chase away (given all that has been
said herein and in the manual and FAQ) but that remains
to be seen. We hope all users will consider all the facts
before concluding we are "spamming scumbags out
to steal their identities."

Also, there is always Yanoff- which we provided as further
assurance that we desperately want to be a benefit to the
Palm community as well as to sell software. What more
can be done (other than remove PocketPurchase
altogether)? Is it not possible for you to put the shoe
on the other foot of an upstart, shoestring-operated
entrepreneurial software shop trying to make a go
providing exceptional software to a niche marketplace?
We, as a company, are betting (literally betting our
success) that most users can and will!

We are baffled by the extent of the concern because
Yanoff is, by nature, internet active and, as such, we could
have put spyware inside the app itself (we, of course,
have not). If you can trust New Yanoff not to have
spyware, how can you not trust us that PocketPurchase
is what we (and their company) say it is? We've kept
nothing hidden; not only is there not a man behind the
screen but there is no screen at all!

The bottom line:
We are not expecting everybody to love or use
PocketPurchase. We are not expecting everyone
to love us for using it. We ARE expecting that people
who are upset about PocketPurchase will be rational
enough to take us at our word and also reasonable
enough to tolerate the small one-time inconvenience of
removing it so that they can enjoy the excellent piece of
software that is Yanoff+ without concern.
July 5, 2004 1:31:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Yanoff used to be available as GNU software. Now you are trying to
make money off of it? That is so tacky, it's crass.

--
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 3:02:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Wordsmith installs the package. I just deleted on my Palm and its gone
until my next upgrade of Wordsmith.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 05:10:44 GMT, Adam Helberg <sendspamhere@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1b512c95158f749f989790@news.frontiernet.net...
>> On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 01:32:42 GMT, Gregg Woodcock had this to say...
>>
>>
>> > "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
>> > news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
>> > > Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
>> > It is in the license and listed as an install item.
>> > In order to install Yanoff+, ALL users must click "I Agree" to this
>> > statement:
>> > If you accept the terms of the agreement, click "I Agree" to continue.
>> > You must accept the agreement to install the PocketPurchase License
>> Manager
>> >
>> > Strike 1.
>> >
>> > > <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm
>> > No, it ALLOWS users to opt-in or opt-out of receiving SPECIFIC info
>> about
>> > Yanoff+ sent from the Yanoff+ team (not from PocketPurchase). This
>> > cannot be considered spam (it is on-target and opt-in).
>> >
>> > Strike 2.
>> >
>> > > and maybe collecting private info.
>> >
>> > This is untrue as both the Yanoff site FAQ and the PocketPurchase
>> site make
>> > clear.
>> > Why else would we publish how to disable and uninstall the
>> PocketPurchase
>> > conduit?
>> > It DOES tell you that it is installing a licenase manager at install
>> time
>> > (but it does not
>> > allow you to deselect it).
>> >
>> > As far as PocketPurchase.prc goes, we are working on an update
>> (hopefully
>> > released in a couple of days) which will allow all users (even
>> registered
>> > users)
>> > to do away with this it if they choose. This also will disable all
>> function
>> > of
>> > PocketPurchase completely disabling the coinduit.
>> >
>> > In summary:
>> > We DO default all (Windows-PC hosted) users to install PocketPurchase.
>> > We will shortly have an update of Yanoff+ that will work w/o
>> > PocketPurchase.prc.
>> > We give instructions for removing the conduit.
>> >
>> > Strike 3.
>> >
>> > > Hope this helps.
>> >
>> > It does not.
>> >
>> > P.S. You're out.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Glad you admit to installing spyware on the PC and Palm.
>> I rest my case, SPAMMER.
>>
>> Beware, be very aware.
>>
>> --
>> Hope this helps.
>> Jim Anderson
>> ( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
>
> Thanks for spilling the beans. There is too much of this going on.
>
> Adam
>
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 3:03:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On 2004-07-04, Bruno <insert@address.here> wrote:
> Yanoff used to be available as GNU software. Now you are trying to
> make money off of it? That is so tacky, it's crass.

It's still GPL (not GNU) software, of course. You can't un-free
something. What he's done is separately license the original code
from the original author and create a non-free program with similar
features. If you don't like it, use the GPL version.
--
Carl Fink carl@fink.to
Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading
http://www.jabootu.com
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 3:05:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:

>Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
><http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and maybe
>collecting private info.
>
>Stay away from Yanoff+

You don't seem to know the difference between software used to license a
commercial product (which tells you that it is being installed and what it will
do) and spyware (which is installed without your knowledge).

Perhaps you were disappointed that you could not use the software without
purchasing it?

And it has nothing to do with SPAM....

More about me: http://www.jecarter.com/
VB3/VB6/C/PowerBasic source code: http://www.jecarter.com/programs.html
Freeware for the Palm with NS Basic source code: http://nsb.jecarter.com
Drivers for Pablo graphics tablet and JamCam cameras: http://home.earthlink.net/~mwbt/
Email here: http://www.jecarter.com/contactme.htm
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 3:31:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:05:36 GMT, the Wiz had this to say...


> Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:
>
> >Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
> ><http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and maybe
> >collecting private info.
> >
> >Stay away from Yanoff+
>
> You don't seem to know the difference between software used to license a
> commercial product (which tells you that it is being installed and what it will
> do) and spyware (which is installed without your knowledge).

Oh I know when a SPAMER tells you about it in the 30th paragraph of the
License agreement and has the user click on 'I Agree', then when they
get caught they hide behind 'we told them and they agreed'.

> Perhaps you were disappointed that you could not use the software without
> purchasing it?

Not really, I know the crack has been posted. I buy the software I use,
I just won't buy or use Yanoff+.

> And it has nothing to do with SPAM....

So you and Gregg say, I don't know you or Gregg, the SPAM cops say to
beware, be very aware.

You seem to have lost your sig delimiter, you should fix that.

> More about me: http://www.jecarter.com/
> VB3/VB6/C/PowerBasic source code: http://www.jecarter.com/programs.html
> Freeware for the Palm with NS Basic source code: http://nsb.jecarter.com
> Drivers for Pablo graphics tablet and JamCam cameras: http://home.earthlink.net/~mwbt/
> Email here: http://www.jecarter.com/contactme.htm
>

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 1:52:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

William P.N. Smith wrote:
> Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:
>> Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
>> <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and
>> maybe collecting private info.
>
> You mean the part where it says:"Unless you clicked on Yes for updates
> or coupons during the install, or purchased a program through
> PocketPurchase, the PocketPurchase conduit is doing nothing."?

Then why install it if the customer clicked no for updates or coupons?
What possible reason could there be if it *really* does nothing?

> Yeah, evil incarnate.

Clandestine software *is* evil, yes. And slowly becoming illegal.

--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 2:03:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

William P.N. Smith wrote:
> Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:
>> Glad you admit to installing spyware on the PC and Palm.
>> I rest my case, SPAMMER.
>
> You still haven't explained why you think this is spyware, nor why you
> think this has something to do with spam.

It has the ability to display pop-up advertising not directly triggered by
the user, it clandestinely calls home (thus disclosing the IP address), and
even has push capability. It not only walks and talks like a duck, but
comes with a pack of duck sauce.

--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 5:02:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
> Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
> <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and maybe
> collecting private info.

Jim, this is Scott Maxwell, CEO of PocketPurchase, Inc. I challenge you to
find anyone who has ever received "spam" through our conduit.
PocketPurchase serves two functions:

1. Unlocking applications.
2. Making it easy for users to buy applications.

That's it. #1 is very nice for customers since it can automatically handle
things like mistyped HotSync names. #2 is critical for shareware on a PDA
since a lot of users have trouble remembering to sit down at their PC to
purchase software for their handheld. With PocketPurchase, they can
purchase and unlock Yanoff+ anywhere and use it immediately.

We have not yet but we will be adding the ability for developers to offer
you discounts on their applications. As Gregg correctly explained, the
offer would only be shown within the application you are trialing. So, for
instance, if Gregg wanted to offer a 20% off Christmas sale on Yanoff+
between Nov. 1 and Dec. 25, he could create the offer on our server. Only
those users that have agreed to receive discounts will ever see it. They
will only see it if they run a trial version of Yanoff+ between those 2
dates.

As Gregg pointed out, he could easily have Yanoff+ go fetch ads directly
since Yanoff+ is an Internet application. He wouldn't need us.

The reason more and more companies are using PocketPurchase is simple. The
shareware model is hobbled on PDAs by the difficulty of converting a trial
to a sale. Some small companies are giving up on PDA software altogether.
Other companies are simply not offering trial versions anymore. Then some
are using PocketPurchase to fix the problem. As competition gets fiercer
and profits dwindle, you will probably see many companies choosing one of
these three options.

Please help us keep PDA shareware alive rather than spreading unfounded
rumours.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 5:02:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Scott Maxwell <usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:
> "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
>> Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
>> <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and
>> maybe collecting private info.
>
> Jim, this is Scott Maxwell, CEO of PocketPurchase, Inc. I challenge
> you to find anyone who has ever received "spam" through our conduit.
> PocketPurchase serves two functions:
>
> 1. Unlocking applications.
> 2. Making it easy for users to buy applications.
>
> That's it. #1 is very nice for customers since it can automatically
> handle things like mistyped HotSync names.

Oh, yeah. That's a *huge* problem that was about to kill the whole business
unless it got fixed.

> #2 is critical for
> shareware on a PDA since a lot of users have trouble remembering to
> sit down at their PC to purchase software for their handheld.

"Critical". Damn, I must have done something wrong when I purchased
software from Handango and other places directly from my handheld *without*
something like that. Critical, my ass.

> With
> PocketPurchase, they can purchase and unlock Yanoff+ anywhere and use
> it immediately.
>
> We have not yet but we will be adding the ability for developers to
> offer you discounts on their applications.

Wonderful. I think I'll stick to the other license, though, where you can't
offer a discount.

> As Gregg pointed out, he could easily have Yanoff+ go fetch ads
> directly since Yanoff+ is an Internet application. He wouldn't need
> us.

True, but presumably Gregg doesn't have the infrastructure and time to get
advertisers, track users, and sell their data.

> The reason more and more companies are using PocketPurchase is
> simple. The shareware model is hobbled on PDAs by the difficulty of
> converting a trial to a sale.

It's very easy, really. Get them hooked on the dope, and they WILL return.
If the dope isn't addictive, it doesn't matter if you stand on the street
corner waving your hands like a chicken -- customers won't come back to buy
it.

> Some small companies are giving up on
> PDA software altogether.

Indeed. And that has more to do with the companies traditionally handling
sales for smaller software makers going corporate and maximizing the profit.
When a software developer has to produce the software and provide the
marketing material, and then ends up with less than the suits do, something
is wrong.

> Other companies are simply not offering
> trial versions anymore.

Name one.

> Please help us keep PDA shareware alive rather than spreading
> unfounded rumours.

Indeed. A good start would be to go out and BUY all the shareware software
you use. Directly from the author. Send him a fiver by mail, and he'll be
much more happy than for the $7.95 sale that leaves him with two bucks after
the suits get theirs.

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:26:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:02:12 GMT, Scott Maxwell had this to say...


> "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
> > Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
> > <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and maybe
> > collecting private info.
>
> Jim, this is Scott Maxwell, CEO of PocketPurchase, Inc. I challenge you to
> find anyone who has ever received "spam" through our conduit.
> PocketPurchase serves two functions:
>
> 1. Unlocking applications.
> 2. Making it easy for users to buy applications.
>
> That's it. #1 is very nice for customers since it can automatically handle
> things like mistyped HotSync names. #2 is critical for shareware on a PDA
> since a lot of users have trouble remembering to sit down at their PC to
> purchase software for their handheld. With PocketPurchase, they can
> purchase and unlock Yanoff+ anywhere and use it immediately.
>
> We have not yet but we will be adding the ability for developers to offer
> you discounts on their applications. As Gregg correctly explained, the
> offer would only be shown within the application you are trialing. So, for
> instance, if Gregg wanted to offer a 20% off Christmas sale on Yanoff+
> between Nov. 1 and Dec. 25, he could create the offer on our server. Only
> those users that have agreed to receive discounts will ever see it. They
> will only see it if they run a trial version of Yanoff+ between those 2
> dates.
>
> As Gregg pointed out, he could easily have Yanoff+ go fetch ads directly
> since Yanoff+ is an Internet application. He wouldn't need us.
>
> The reason more and more companies are using PocketPurchase is simple. The
> shareware model is hobbled on PDAs by the difficulty of converting a trial
> to a sale. Some small companies are giving up on PDA software altogether.
> Other companies are simply not offering trial versions anymore. Then some
> are using PocketPurchase to fix the problem. As competition gets fiercer
> and profits dwindle, you will probably see many companies choosing one of
> these three options.
>
> Please help us keep PDA shareware alive rather than spreading unfounded
> rumours.
>
> Scott Maxwell
> PocketPurchase, Inc.

Thank you very much Scott, for admitting your company pushes unrequested
ads onto the handheld, which is *THE* classic definition of SPAM.

So if I would run Yanoff+ to view USNET offline, before I could read the
articles, you force me to read an unrequested ad, scroll down thru the
ad to find the continue button, and up pops another unrequested ad. How
many unrequested ads do I have to view?

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:42:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> Thank you very much Scott, for admitting your company pushes unrequested
> ads onto the handheld, which is *THE* classic definition of SPAM.

Jim, you are being absurd. Most apps that are in "trial" mode ask you to
purchase them. This is NOT the classic definition of spam. It IS the
classic definition of shareware. The only difference here is that instead
of saying, "Please buy this app", developers can offer those who opt in a
discount and say, "Please buy this app. Buy before Tuesday and save $5."

If you do not want to see an ad for an application that you are test driving
when you run the app, just buy it. Otherwise, don't complain when an author
asks you to pay for software that you are getting to try out for free.

Also, the discounts are NOT unrequested. This has been repeated many times.
Why do you persist in trying to attribute words to others that are directly
counter to what they actually said? I am happy to "discuss" the purpose of
PocketPurchase with anyone. However, if you are only interested in
constantly repeating falsehoods, I will trust to the intelligence of other
readers to judge the merits of our service for themselves.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:44:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> Then why install it if the customer clicked no for updates or coupons?
> What possible reason could there be if it *really* does nothing?

Because it also has the ability to complete the customers purchase. If you
decide to purchase the app, you can do it on your handheld. That is the
PRIMARY purpose. Coupon and update notification is a secondary, opt-in
service.

> > Yeah, evil incarnate.
>
> Clandestine software *is* evil, yes. And slowly becoming illegal.

Good thing we are not clandestine. We are very upfront about what we do.
License management software will never be outlawed.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:46:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Perhaps SPAM, perhaps not but, the purpose of this software is get user's
to pay for trial versions. The user pays for this spun marketing fluff
with a loss of valuable RAM. The developers are the customer for this
product -- not the users. If vendors want to use my memory and my
internet connections to benefit them -- the user desarves to be paid.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:26:10 GMT, Jim Anderson
<fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:02:12 GMT, Scott Maxwell had this to say...
>
>
>> "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
>> > Yanoff+ installs Pocket Purchase with out telling you.
>> > <http://www.pocketpurchase.com/&gt; It pushes SPAM onto your Palm and
>> maybe
>> > collecting private info.
>>
>> Jim, this is Scott Maxwell, CEO of PocketPurchase, Inc. I challenge
>> you to
>> find anyone who has ever received "spam" through our conduit.
>> PocketPurchase serves two functions:
>>
>> 1. Unlocking applications.
>> 2. Making it easy for users to buy applications.
>>
>> That's it. #1 is very nice for customers since it can automatically
>> handle
>> things like mistyped HotSync names. #2 is critical for shareware on a
>> PDA
>> since a lot of users have trouble remembering to sit down at their PC to
>> purchase software for their handheld. With PocketPurchase, they can
>> purchase and unlock Yanoff+ anywhere and use it immediately.
>>
>> We have not yet but we will be adding the ability for developers to
>> offer
>> you discounts on their applications. As Gregg correctly explained, the
>> offer would only be shown within the application you are trialing. So,
>> for
>> instance, if Gregg wanted to offer a 20% off Christmas sale on Yanoff+
>> between Nov. 1 and Dec. 25, he could create the offer on our server.
>> Only
>> those users that have agreed to receive discounts will ever see it.
>> They
>> will only see it if they run a trial version of Yanoff+ between those 2
>> dates.
>>
>> As Gregg pointed out, he could easily have Yanoff+ go fetch ads directly
>> since Yanoff+ is an Internet application. He wouldn't need us.
>>
>> The reason more and more companies are using PocketPurchase is simple.
>> The
>> shareware model is hobbled on PDAs by the difficulty of converting a
>> trial
>> to a sale. Some small companies are giving up on PDA software
>> altogether.
>> Other companies are simply not offering trial versions anymore. Then
>> some
>> are using PocketPurchase to fix the problem. As competition gets
>> fiercer
>> and profits dwindle, you will probably see many companies choosing one
>> of
>> these three options.
>>
>> Please help us keep PDA shareware alive rather than spreading unfounded
>> rumours.
>>
>> Scott Maxwell
>> PocketPurchase, Inc.
>
> Thank you very much Scott, for admitting your company pushes unrequested
> ads onto the handheld, which is *THE* classic definition of SPAM.
>
> So if I would run Yanoff+ to view USNET offline, before I could read the
> articles, you force me to read an unrequested ad, scroll down thru the
> ad to find the continue button, and up pops another unrequested ad. How
> many unrequested ads do I have to view?
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:48:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> It has the ability to display pop-up advertising not directly triggered by
> the user, it clandestinely calls home (thus disclosing the IP address),
and
> even has push capability. It not only walks and talks like a duck, but
> comes with a pack of duck sauce.

PocketPurchase does nothing clandestine. It does NOT display pop-up
advertising of any kind. It manages user licenses and makes it easier to
purchase software. The only thing it "pushes" to the handheld is your
registration code when you purchase and possibly a new price or title if the
author changed those.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:48:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:48:11 GMT, "Scott Maxwell"
<usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:

>PocketPurchase does nothing clandestine. It does NOT display pop-up
>advertising of any kind. It manages user licenses and makes it easier to
>purchase software. The only thing it "pushes" to the handheld is your
>registration code when you purchase and possibly a new price or title if the
>author changed those.

I have to say I have no intention of even trying yanoff now. Not
because i think there's spam involved etc, but because i don't want
yet another piece of unsolicited software (pocketpurchase) on my
system clogging up the registry, file space, bandwidth, et al...

I had downloaded New Yanoff to try but didn't install until I saw how
this thread was developing. It's now deleted and I'll stick with the
untainted (though buggy) msgagent!

At the end of the day I give developers my email so they can (and they
do) advise me of updates and offers, and this works very well. I
don't need a piece of software consuming space for time unlimited in
order to enter a reg code that can be entered in a matter of seconds.

To the pocketpurchase guys I wish you well. To the Yanoff guys please
note my attitude (and others) towards your software whilst associated
with pocketpurchase. oh, and one last thing - do you make your living
from pocketpurchase or your customers?

Have a good one !
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:50:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

You are correct that software will never be outlawed but that does not
mean that the users have to accept it. Remember key disks and dongles.
If something benfits the supplier at the inconvienience of the user, the
user can opt to buy from someone else.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:44:27 GMT, Scott Maxwell
<usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:

>> Then why install it if the customer clicked no for updates or coupons?
>> What possible reason could there be if it *really* does nothing?
>
> Because it also has the ability to complete the customers purchase. If
> you
> decide to purchase the app, you can do it on your handheld. That is the
> PRIMARY purpose. Coupon and update notification is a secondary, opt-in
> service.
>
>> > Yeah, evil incarnate.
>>
>> Clandestine software *is* evil, yes. And slowly becoming illegal.
>
> Good thing we are not clandestine. We are very upfront about what we do.
> License management software will never be outlawed.
>
> Scott Maxwell
> PocketPurchase, Inc.
>
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:50:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"George Fragos" <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:o psao3iblrhmcrd6@silverpda...
> You are correct that software will never be outlawed but that does not
> mean that the users have to accept it. Remember key disks and dongles.
> If something benfits the supplier at the inconvienience of the user, the
> user can opt to buy from someone else.

The entire purpose of PocketPurchase is user-convenience. That's the whole
point.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 6:50:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"George Fragos" <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:o psao3a1i5hmcrd6@silverpda...
> Perhaps SPAM, perhaps not but, the purpose of this software is get user's
> to pay for trial versions. The user pays for this spun marketing fluff
> with a loss of valuable RAM. The developers are the customer for this
> product -- not the users. If vendors want to use my memory and my
> internet connections to benefit them -- the user desarves to be paid.

You are being totally absurd; you should be paid to use GREAT software for
free.
Be real. If you don't want PocketPurchase, then just UNINSTALL IT (there is
an uninstaller and it removes EVERYTHING except PocketPurchase.prc which you
can also easily remove). Once the conduit is disabled/uninstalled,
PocketPurchase.prc is totally inert as it cannot talk to its host.
PocketPurchase is for the convenience of the user to instantly purchase the
software. If he doesn't want it he is free to remove it; WE EVEN PROVIDE
THE UNINSTALLER and alternative directions to do so (the uninstaller also
removes the New Yanoff dox which some users may wish to keep).
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:02:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> > As Gregg pointed out, he could easily have Yanoff+ go fetch ads
> > directly since Yanoff+ is an Internet application. He wouldn't need
> > us.
>
> True, but presumably Gregg doesn't have the infrastructure and time to get
> advertisers, track users, and sell their data.

Neither do we. Nor do we have the interest since both our privacy policy
and our contract with our developers and distributors expressly prohibits us
from doing this. Gregg could sue us if we tried it.

> It's very easy, really. Get them hooked on the dope, and they WILL
return.

Ah Arthur. Isn't it lovely that on Usenet you can call a total stranger who
has done nothing wrong to you a liar and a "drug dealer" with no evidence
and no possible repurcusions...

> Indeed. And that has more to do with the companies traditionally handling
> sales for smaller software makers going corporate and maximizing the
profit.
> When a software developer has to produce the software and provide the
> marketing material, and then ends up with less than the suits do,
something
> is wrong.

Right. So let us help small developers with out attacking us unjustly. We
are really cheap for small companies to use.

> Name one.

Handmark has stopped offering trials of several of its entertainment titles.
Quite a few companies that sell through PalmGear have switched to Commercial
license rather than shareware.

> Indeed. A good start would be to go out and BUY all the shareware
software
> you use. Directly from the author. Send him a fiver by mail, and he'll
be
> much more happy than for the $7.95 sale that leaves him with two bucks
after
> the suits get theirs.

Um, am I a drug dealer in a suit? We charge developer's 12.5%. On a $7.95
app, the developer will get $6.95 from us and we handle the entire purchase
and registration mechanism as well as customer database. Handango just
bumped their rate to 40%.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:02:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:02:53 +0000, Scott Maxwell wrote:

> Art Hagen wrote:
>> It's very easy, really. Get them hooked on the dope, and they WILL
>> return.
>
> Ah Arthur. Isn't it lovely that on Usenet you can call a total stranger who
> has done nothing wrong to you a liar and a "drug dealer" with no evidence
> and no possible repurcusions...

Uh, maybe, but I'd guess that he was using a fancy literary technique
known as "metaphor". Look it up sometime, if you're interested in not
looking like a buffoon.

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:02:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Scott Maxwell <usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:
>
>> It's very easy, really. Get them hooked on the dope, and they WILL
>> return.
>
> Ah Arthur. Isn't it lovely that on Usenet you can call a total
> stranger who has done nothing wrong to you a liar and a "drug dealer"
> with no evidence and no possible repurcusions...

I never called you a drug dealer (I should know better than to use
allegories on Usenet), nor a liar. I believe that you see things from your
point of view, but that your point of view differs from many users point of
view.

>> Indeed. A good start would be to go out and BUY all the shareware
>> software you use. Directly from the author. Send him a fiver by
>> mail, and he'll be much more happy than for the $7.95 sale that
>> leaves him with two bucks after the suits get theirs.
>
> Um, am I a drug dealer in a suit?

You're literally-minded, for sure. I haven't called anyone a drug dealer --
it was an allegory of what a really *good* developer should be able to
achieve: Customers who get addicted and come back for more. And "a suit"
does not imply "in a suit". It's another metaphor for "business executive",
whether in a suit or not. It's even in the dictionary.

No, you're not a drug dealer. At least not for me. I'm sure others have
been hooked on your software (WordSmith and QuikBudget, at least), and if
they come back for more, yes, you're a good drug dealer (and that's a
compliment).

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:03:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Thats what the vendor says but, the purpose is to turn more trials into
revenue for the developer and of course to make money for Pocket
Purchase. Any small benefit to the user is of no consequence because it
only a byproduct of the befit received by the developer.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:44:56 GMT, Gregg Woodcock
<woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:

> "George Fragos" <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:o psao3iblrhmcrd6@silverpda...
>> You are correct that software will never be outlawed but that does not
>> mean that the users have to accept it. Remember key disks and dongles.
>> If something benfits the supplier at the inconvienience of the user, the
>> user can opt to buy from someone else.
>
> The entire purpose of PocketPurchase is user-convenience. That's the
> whole
> point.
>
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:06:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> Perhaps SPAM, perhaps not but, the purpose of this software is get user's
> to pay for trial versions. The user pays for this spun marketing fluff
> with a loss of valuable RAM. The developers are the customer for this
> product -- not the users. If vendors want to use my memory and my
> internet connections to benefit them -- the user desarves to be paid.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Gregg let's you try his app
for free. For the privilege of then asking you to purchase his app, which
he is graciously allowing you to try for free, Gregg should pay you. Do I
have that right?

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:07:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

And you have little understanding of business and marketing. Accept it if
you want, that is your choice -- mine is to not purchase programs that use
it. In the end the market will decide.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:50:53 GMT, Gregg Woodcock
<woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:

> "George Fragos" <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:o psao3a1i5hmcrd6@silverpda...
>> Perhaps SPAM, perhaps not but, the purpose of this software is get
>> user's
>> to pay for trial versions. The user pays for this spun marketing fluff
>> with a loss of valuable RAM. The developers are the customer for this
>> product -- not the users. If vendors want to use my memory and my
>> internet connections to benefit them -- the user desarves to be paid.
>
> You are being totally absurd; you should be paid to use GREAT software
> for
> free.
> Be real. If you don't want PocketPurchase, then just UNINSTALL IT
> (there is
> an uninstaller and it removes EVERYTHING except PocketPurchase.prc which
> you
> can also easily remove). Once the conduit is disabled/uninstalled,
> PocketPurchase.prc is totally inert as it cannot talk to its host.
> PocketPurchase is for the convenience of the user to instantly purchase
> the
> software. If he doesn't want it he is free to remove it; WE EVEN PROVIDE
> THE UNINSTALLER and alternative directions to do so (the uninstaller also
> removes the New Yanoff dox which some users may wish to keep).
>
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:13:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Commercial licenses do have trials - Iambic, Tealpoint, Snappermail and I
assume others. These are the only commercial Palm OS packages I use so I
can't be more specific.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:02:53 GMT, Scott Maxwell
<usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:

>> > As Gregg pointed out, he could easily have Yanoff+ go fetch ads
>> > directly since Yanoff+ is an Internet application. He wouldn't need
>> > us.
>>
>> True, but presumably Gregg doesn't have the infrastructure and time to
>> get
>> advertisers, track users, and sell their data.
>
> Neither do we. Nor do we have the interest since both our privacy policy
> and our contract with our developers and distributors expressly
> prohibits us
> from doing this. Gregg could sue us if we tried it.
>
>> It's very easy, really. Get them hooked on the dope, and they WILL
> return.
>
> Ah Arthur. Isn't it lovely that on Usenet you can call a total stranger
> who
> has done nothing wrong to you a liar and a "drug dealer" with no evidence
> and no possible repurcusions...
>
>> Indeed. And that has more to do with the companies traditionally
>> handling
>> sales for smaller software makers going corporate and maximizing the
> profit.
>> When a software developer has to produce the software and provide the
>> marketing material, and then ends up with less than the suits do,
> something
>> is wrong.
>
> Right. So let us help small developers with out attacking us unjustly.
> We
> are really cheap for small companies to use.
>
>> Name one.
>
> Handmark has stopped offering trials of several of its entertainment
> titles.
> Quite a few companies that sell through PalmGear have switched to
> Commercial
> license rather than shareware.
>
>> Indeed. A good start would be to go out and BUY all the shareware
> software
>> you use. Directly from the author. Send him a fiver by mail, and he'll
> be
>> much more happy than for the $7.95 sale that leaves him with two bucks
> after
>> the suits get theirs.
>
> Um, am I a drug dealer in a suit? We charge developer's 12.5%. On a
> $7.95
> app, the developer will get $6.95 from us and we handle the entire
> purchase
> and registration mechanism as well as customer database. Handango just
> bumped their rate to 40%.
>
> Scott Maxwell
> PocketPurchase, Inc.
>
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:13:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"George Fragos" <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:o psao33jcuhmcrd6@silverpda...
> Thats what the vendor says but, the purpose is to turn more trials into
> revenue for the developer and of course to make money for Pocket
> Purchase. Any small benefit to the user is of no consequence because it
> only a byproduct of the befit received by the developer.

The benefit to the customer is three-fold.

1. Easy to purchase.
2. Hassle-free unlocking. No long reg code to hand enter. No calling
customer service if you accidentally mistyped your HotSync ID.
3. Allows developers for continue to write great apps since more customers
who want the app are now able to complete their purchase.

You know that people write commercial applications so that people will buy
them, right? Not just because writing apps for people to use for free is
fun. Why is it wrong or evil to make it easier for customers to pay for an
app that they want.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:13:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Scott Maxwell <usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:
>
> The benefit to the customer is three-fold.
>
> 1. Easy to purchase.

That depends on how you define "easy". I prefer to do all my online
shopping in one go, printing out orders and receipts as I go. If I can't
use my full sized keyboard and have to jump through hoops just to get a
printed order, it's not easy for me.

> 2. Hassle-free unlocking. No long reg code to hand enter. No calling
> customer service if you accidentally mistyped your HotSync ID.

I prefer a registration code. That way I have no problems when switching
devices -- I simply enter the reg code again. And come on -- if mistyping
the HotSync ID is such a big problem as you make it out to be, I'm sure
you'll get even more calls for people mistyping their credit card number or
name. A problem you don't solve.

> 3. Allows developers for continue to write great apps since more
> customers who want the app are now able to complete their purchase.

And some are unable, or unwilling, and boycotts the software. Or the
developer has to spend time writing FAQs and news postings defending his
actions. I'm not sure that frees the developer to write great apps.

> You know that people write commercial applications so that people
> will buy them, right? Not just because writing apps for people to use
> for free is fun.

If writing apps isn't fun, something is wrong. If the writer can make some
money on it too, all the better.

> Why is it wrong or evil to make it easier for
> customers to pay for an app that they want.

Profit for profit's sake without care for the customer or creator (except
how it affects current and future profit) is evil.

--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:14:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

I gladdly pay for the application just not for Pocket Purchase.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:06:10 GMT, Scott Maxwell
<usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:

>> Perhaps SPAM, perhaps not but, the purpose of this software is get
>> user's
>> to pay for trial versions. The user pays for this spun marketing fluff
>> with a loss of valuable RAM. The developers are the customer for this
>> product -- not the users. If vendors want to use my memory and my
>> internet connections to benefit them -- the user desarves to be paid.
>
> Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Gregg let's you try his app
> for free. For the privilege of then asking you to purchase his app,
> which
> he is graciously allowing you to try for free, Gregg should pay you. Do
> I
> have that right?
>
> Scott Maxwell
> PocketPurchase, Inc.
>
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:19:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> Commercial licenses do have trials - Iambic, Tealpoint, Snappermail and I
> assume others. These are the only commercial Palm OS packages I use so I
> can't be more specific.

Those are simply shareware apps calling themselves commercial. Look on
Palmgear and you will find a number of apps that are commercial and do not
offer a trial.

Here's one that says it is shareware but offers no trial:

http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.s...

Go over to Handmark.com and see if you can try Handmark Express for free.
Looks like you have to pay $6.99 to try it.

Even some desktop software is moving away from the shareware model. I had
to purchase PGP because no trial was available. It didn't work as I had
hoped so I had to take advantage of their 30-day return policy. I see this
system being used increasingly and have talked to many developers in the PDA
industry who are planning to move to a buy-before-you-try with a money back
guarantee.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:19:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Scott Maxwell <usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:

> Even some desktop software is moving away from the shareware model.
> I had to purchase PGP because no trial was available.

What stopped you from downloading the freeware version for a personal trial?

http://www.pgpi.org/news/#20021203
http://www.pgp.com/products/freeware.html

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:22:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"George Fragos" <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:o psao4l6q6hmcrd6@silverpda...
> I gladdly pay for the application just not for Pocket Purchase.

You don't have to pay for PocketPurchase. PocketPurchase simply provides
another avenue for you to purchase and takes care of the unlocking mechanism
as well so that Gregg can spend more time focusing on his app instead of his
security, registration, purchasing, sales tracking, etc.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:22:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:22:28 +0000, Scott Maxwell wrote:

> You don't have to pay for PocketPurchase.

If you reread the subthread, the argument George was trying to make is
that Pocket Purchase _does_ cost the user money, because it uses resources
that are not free (bandwidth, RAM).

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:22:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Scott Maxwell <usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:
> "George Fragos" <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:o psao4l6q6hmcrd6@silverpda...
>> I gladdly pay for the application just not for Pocket Purchase.
>
> You don't have to pay for PocketPurchase.

So I can subtract 12.5% from the payment because I don't want to pay for
PocketPurchase? Thanks for clearing that up for us.

--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 7:56:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> > Art Hagen wrote:
> >> It's very easy, really. Get them hooked on the dope, and they WILL
> >> return.
> >
> > Ah Arthur. Isn't it lovely that on Usenet you can call a total stranger
who
> > has done nothing wrong to you a liar and a "drug dealer" with no
evidence
> > and no possible repurcusions...
>
> Uh, maybe, but I'd guess that he was using a fancy literary technique
> known as "metaphor". Look it up sometime, if you're interested in not
> looking like a buffoon.

If I compare your business to hooking people on drugs, I am putting you in
the same class as a drug dealer. Yes, it is a metaphor. Metaphors are used
to show how one thing is similar to another.

I created this service to help both developers and users and have poured all
of my energy into making it the easiest possible way to purchase. Being
compared "metaphorically" to a drug dealer grates.

Bottom line is this. If we wanted to, we could horribly abuse our service.
If we did this, we would be reflecting badly on all of the developers who
count on us and they, according to their contract, would be entitled to sue
us for doing what we promised we would not do. Then we would be out of
business. So speculate on how rotten a person I am all you like and accuse
me of the basest crimes. I can't possibly break the covenant I have with my
users and developers.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 8:00:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> If you reread the subthread, the argument George was trying to make is
> that Pocket Purchase _does_ cost the user money, because it uses resources
> that are not free (bandwidth, RAM).

It only uses bandwidth if the user has opted in to receive discount/upgrade
notifications or has purchased the app. The RAM that is used is partially
made up for in reduced size of every application that relies on
PocketPurchase since we provide a lot of services that do not need to be
built into the app.

The funny thing is that we could have made PocketPurchase a library that is
linked into the application. It would have wasted a lot more RAM since it
would be in every app but we wouldn't have any complaints about the plug-in.
We opted to make it a shared component.

Scott Maxwell
PocketPurchase, Inc.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 8:46:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:nvepr1-hlb.ln1@kether.broomstick.com...
> Scott Maxwell <usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:
> > "Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1b511381a6488e6f98978f@news.frontiernet.net...
> >
> > Jim, this is Scott Maxwell, CEO of PocketPurchase, Inc. I challenge
> > you to find anyone who has ever received "spam" through our conduit.
> > PocketPurchase serves two functions:
> >
> > 1. Unlocking applications.
> > 2. Making it easy for users to buy applications.
> >
> > That's it. #1 is very nice for customers since it can automatically
> > handle things like mistyped HotSync names.
>
> Oh, yeah. That's a *huge* problem that was about to kill the whole
business
> unless it got fixed.

You would be surprised the support costs drained (and customer satisfaction
spoiled) by this problem!

> > #2 is critical for
> > shareware on a PDA since a lot of users have trouble remembering to
> > sit down at their PC to purchase software for their handheld.
>
> "Critical". Damn, I must have done something wrong when I purchased
> software from Handango and other places directly from my handheld
*without*
> something like that.

Handango and PalmGear are downright usurious. They both have had a steady
stream of semi-annual price increases for some time now and that's why I'm
not using them. I won't divulge my surcharge with PocketPurchase but it is
FAR, FAR
better than the outrageous charges required of those two. I believe in free
markets and tip my hat to them for their profitability to themselves (I want
to be a RichGuy[tm] some day, too) but I simply can't afford to pay them
that kind of money for what little they provide.
Right now Handango charges 40% and PalmGear charges 30-40% PLUS a per-title
listing fee PLUS CC fees!
And both of them require that the amount they collect from their sites
MUST be the same as (i.e. not more than) what software developers charge via
any other venue/method.
If you want to help Shareware survive, the VERY LAST thing you should do is
buy from a reseller.
Use PalmGear/Handango/whomever to research the market and identify the
software (and even download an try it) but PLEASE do not buy it from there!
Locate the author's web pages and buy it direct. We LOVE that!

Check out this recent thread for a specific example of the brewing crisis in
(non)profitability of Palm Shareware:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=9...

> > As Gregg pointed out, he could easily have Yanoff+ go fetch ads
> > directly since Yanoff+ is an Internet application. He wouldn't need
> > us.
>
> True, but presumably Gregg doesn't have the infrastructure and time to get
> advertisers, track users, and sell their data.

I do not and also have no desire. I want to build and sell COOL software
with the goal of generating a healthy enough cashflow that I can cutover to
doing so full time. The crew at PocketPurchase is of the exact same mind.
That's one of the reasons we selected their solution; they have a proven and
trustworthy track record of providing excellent software with high customer
satisfaction (with products other than PocketPurchase, I mean).

> > Some small companies are giving up on
> > PDA software altogether.
>
> Indeed. And that has more to do with the companies traditionally handling
> sales for smaller software makers going corporate and maximizing the
profit.
> When a software developer has to produce the software and provide the
> marketing material, and then ends up with less than the suits do,
something
> is wrong.

See previous comments/thread about PalmGear et. al.
Our website is the BEST place to buy (www.PalmYanoff.com), followed by
PocketPurchase (from within the app) followed way last (should we ever
choose to list with them) the big-boy resellers. What is killing shareware
is the inability of authors to get paid. This is primarily due to
pirates/wares, as well as huge surcharges from resellers. As far as
resellers go, I can't think of any place that charges who charges less than
PocketPurchase. They are trying to make a change for the better at a very
reasonable cost to the author.

> > Other companies are simply not offering
> > trial versions anymore.
>
> Name one.

See previously mentioned thread. One of the restrictions PalmGear et. al.
have is that the software itself MUST NOT advertise any other purchase
channel other than the host. What's the point in offering freeware if I
can't point them towards the shareware or the purchase page?

> > Please help us keep PDA shareware alive rather than spreading
> > unfounded rumours.
>
> Indeed. A good start would be to go out and BUY all the shareware
software
> you use. Directly from the author. Send him a fiver by mail, and he'll
be
> much more happy than for the $7.95 sale that leaves him with two bucks
after
> the suits get theirs.

Now you are talking, Art.
To that I say a hearty, AMEN (and www.PalmYanoff.com/purchase.htm)! :>
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 8:46:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Gregg Woodcock <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:

>> Indeed. A good start would be to go out and BUY all the shareware
>> software you use. Directly from the author. Send him a fiver by
>> mail, and he'll be much more happy than for the $7.95 sale that
>> leaves him with two bucks after the suits get theirs.
>
> Now you are talking, Art.
> To that I say a hearty, AMEN (and www.PalmYanoff.com/purchase.htm)! :>

If we buy it from there, will we get a "clean" version? Like in one that
physically *can't* tell us to buy Yanoff++ TNG for only $19.99 if we act
before Tuesday?

Also, you might want to add a download option for people who download and
install directly from their PDA. A link to the prc file or a zip would in
most cases do. I haven't been able to find any Palm program that can
extract an exe, sit or tar. I hardly ever hotsync while near the PC, but
sync over WiFi and download apps directly.

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 11:26:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Scott Maxwell" wrote:
>
> From an earlier message...
> (snip) The benefit to the customer is three-fold.
> 1. Easy to purchase.
> 2. Hassle-free unlocking. No long reg code to
> hand enter. No calling customer service if you
> accidentally mistyped your HotSync ID.
> 3. Allows developers for continue to write great
> apps since more customers who want the app
> are now able to complete their purchase. (snip)
>
>
> From your last message:
> (snip) As more developers use PocketPurchase,
> people will become more comfortable with
> the idea. (snip)


I glanced through this thread with only passing interest until that last
sentence, Scott. With visions of assimilation by the Borg, I read back over
your earlier messages. You talked about promises, covenants, trust, and how
you "created this service to help both developers and users." Yet,
throughout all that, I saw very little mention of the real purpose of your
software - a mechanism to compel users to pay for the software they've
downloaded. Since you're "happy to discuss the purpose of PocketPurchase
with anyone," perhaps you'd be willing to expand more on this aspect of your
software, explaining how "more" developers using it will help, and extend
trust to, users (such as myself). While doing so, keep in mind that I have
many years of computer experience, on multiple platforms, and have never
seen a situation yet where software such as yours has actually helped "me"
in any substantial way. Your contention seems to be a suggestion that
software development will end without your software. If that is the case,
one must wonder how the micro-computer industry has survived for almost 30
years without your "help."

Dwight Stewart
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 11:55:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In message <ojMFc.4190$R36.1656@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Adam
Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Thanks for spilling the beans. There is too much of this going on.

Too much of what? Too much of a company telling you what they're doing
up front in the license AND in plain text in the installer?


--
A cheap shot is a terrible thing to waste.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 11:55:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In message <7uuge0t8s9fi5b6mnkajp28add2lj163em@4ax.com> Bruno
<insert@address.here> wrote:

>Yanoff used to be available as GNU software. Now you are trying to
>make money off of it? That is so tacky, it's crass.

huh? Yanoff is still available under the GPL (it was never GNU).


--
A cheap shot is a terrible thing to waste.
Anonymous
July 6, 2004 3:51:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Just me :) " <none@given.out> wrote in message
news:47kke0dn6gvisegjgorgn2f3ecm4hst2e8@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:48:11 GMT, "Scott Maxwell"
> <usenet@pocketpurchase.com> wrote:
>
> To the pocketpurchase guys I wish you well. To the Yanoff guys please
> note my attitude (and others) towards your software whilst associated
> with pocketpurchase. oh, and one last thing - do you make your living
> from pocketpurchase or your customers?

Right now, neither! We do get your point, though...
!