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Tuning the system - Live Sound

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April 30, 2005 12:07:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi!

I dont know of a good live sound reinforcement list... so i thought ill
post here... Lemme know of one though.. thanks!

I have been doing sound for this band at this small pub. The sound
there in general is quite bad. Extrememly small stage, PA almost in
line with the Vocal mic, with the drum kit almost right behind, highly
reflective conctrete walls and tiled floors... square hall...

anywaz, ive been getting better at providing a respectable sound with
every gig. Tonight was good too...

This setup consistes of one vocal mic, 2 Guitars (DI), 1 Bass (DI), and
a drum set. The drums only have one mic in the kik (and another at
times to reinforce the snare and hihat). The venue is small and drummer
plays hard. Hez too loud as it is, and it's a bit of a challenge
getting everything else, especially the vocals on top of the drums.

I have so far been following the standard procedure of inserting a 31
band stereo EQ on the LR buss. and then ringing the system out.

I have been thinkinhg for a while about trying a different method.
Since nothing else will feed back besides the vocal mic, can i just
insert the 31 band on the vacal channel and let all other instruments
be ? This would perhaps ring out the microphone, while leaving other
aspects of the sound intact....

Unfortunaltely, i do not get enough time to experiment as I soundcheck.

Thank you for all advice.

Sidhu
April 30, 2005 5:56:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Tred it. Given up. The drummer saz thats how he plays. I use a Beta
58A, and the only option I have is a SM58.

Sidhu
Anonymous
April 30, 2005 7:42:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sidhu" <nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com> wrote in message
news:1114873656.435173.241840@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Hi!
>
> I dont know of a good live sound reinforcement list... so i thought ill
> post here... Lemme know of one though.. thanks!
>
> I have been doing sound for this band at this small pub. The sound
> there in general is quite bad. Extrememly small stage, PA almost in
> line with the Vocal mic, with the drum kit almost right behind, highly
> reflective conctrete walls and tiled floors... square hall...
>
> anywaz, ive been getting better at providing a respectable sound with
> every gig. Tonight was good too...
>
> This setup consistes of one vocal mic, 2 Guitars (DI), 1 Bass (DI), and
> a drum set. The drums only have one mic in the kik (and another at
> times to reinforce the snare and hihat). The venue is small and drummer
> plays hard. Hez too loud as it is, and it's a bit of a challenge
> getting everything else, especially the vocals on top of the drums.
>
> I have so far been following the standard procedure of inserting a 31
> band stereo EQ on the LR buss. and then ringing the system out.
>
> I have been thinkinhg for a while about trying a different method.
> Since nothing else will feed back besides the vocal mic, can i just
> insert the 31 band on the vacal channel and let all other instruments
> be ? This would perhaps ring out the microphone, while leaving other
> aspects of the sound intact....
>
> Unfortunaltely, i do not get enough time to experiment as I soundcheck.
>
> Thank you for all advice.
>
> Sidhu
>

Putting a 31-band EQ on vocals has been done, but you should start with mic
selection. An AKG D880, D3800, Sennheiser 855, or Audix D-7 will get you a
lot farther than an EQ.

But your real problem seems to be the drummer. He plays loud because it
feels better, which is probably more important to him than how the band
comes across to the audience. Do what you have to do to get him to ease
off - split sticks, whatever.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 1, 2005 2:50:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sidhu wrote:
> I dont know of a good live sound reinforcement list... so i thought
ill
> post here... Lemme know of one though.. thanks!

alt.audio.pro.live-sound
Anonymous
May 1, 2005 1:14:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1114894600.885980.320400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com writes:

> Tred it. Given up. The drummer saz thats how he plays. I use a Beta
> 58A, and the only option I have is a SM58.

Get the band a better gig in a larger room. They probably need the
money anyway.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
May 2, 2005 2:28:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sean Conolly wrote:
> In 30 years of playing drums I have never understood where these guys
come
> from who literally can't play unless they are bludgeoning the kit to
death.
> These are usually the same ones with the horribly tuned drums that
are
> oh-so-proud of how they sound.
>
> Sean


so true.. so true.... I just have to make do... i need the money too...
but maybe not for long. thanks to all.

Sidhu
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 2:57:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sidhu <nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com> wrote:
>
>I have so far been following the standard procedure of inserting a 31
>band stereo EQ on the LR buss. and then ringing the system out.
>
>I have been thinkinhg for a while about trying a different method.
>Since nothing else will feed back besides the vocal mic, can i just
>insert the 31 band on the vacal channel and let all other instruments
>be ? This would perhaps ring out the microphone, while leaving other
>aspects of the sound intact....

If all you are using the EQ for is feedback reduction, yes.

But if all you are using the EQ for is feedback reduction, the 31-band
graphic is probably not the right tool for the job.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 3:30:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Sidhu <nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com> wrote:
>
>>I have so far been following the standard procedure of inserting a 31
>>band stereo EQ on the LR buss. and then ringing the system out.
>>
>>I have been thinkinhg for a while about trying a different method.
>>Since nothing else will feed back besides the vocal mic, can i just
>>insert the 31 band on the vacal channel and let all other instruments
>>be ? This would perhaps ring out the microphone, while leaving other
>>aspects of the sound intact....
>
>
> If all you are using the EQ for is feedback reduction, yes.
>
> But if all you are using the EQ for is feedback reduction, the 31-band
> graphic is probably not the right tool for the job.
> --scott
>
>

I will generally use 31 bands for sound shaping the system in the room, parametrics to kill annoying
feedback.

--fletch
May 2, 2005 4:09:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I did not Parametrics were more suited for the job or ringing out a
system ? Which prametric will allow you as much detail as a 31 band ?
especially is there are not a few frequencies tending to feedback...
but quite a few...

Scott, what would your choise of gear for this purpose be ?

thanks a ton
Sidhu
May 2, 2005 5:14:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Feedback destroyers make me a little nervous, even though i have never
used one... I am scared that they'll just notch out everything... the
situation at this venue can get real bad...

I get bout an hour to soundcheck after i setup, and have so far been
pulling shows withought any major feedback. (maybe a few mild ones,
taken care of in an instant). On the other hand i was recently called
to do sound at the last minute for this other show in a pub where I
managed to get a huge sound in minimum time with the least EQ required.
Metal band too... so it was LOUD! My main problems occurs in songs
where the vocalist has softer passages... while audible, there is
sudden loss of intelligibility. Trying to raise the level is not much
of an option.

With parametrics, i was wondering how many would be needed to notch out
the number of frequencies that i need to at this venue... did a quick
search at sweetwater and the best i could locate was a 5 band. Anywaz,
no one has parametrics here, one reason i was unaware, but id still
like to know.

one method that i enploy is to gate/manually gain ride the vocal fader
when he is not singing. Helps reducing any chance of feedback due to
careless handling of the microphone (straight into the wedge for a long
period ?). I also tried monitor and PA speaker placement, but find it
rather futile since the vocalist likes to hold the mic in his had and
go around in circles.. ;-)

Also with 31 bands.. i was presuming that they would have a rather
narrow q. too ?

another thing that i forgot mentioning, I can get more gain of the main
PA if the front wedge is turned off or withought the vocal feed.
Obvious i guess, but i thought id let you know.

thanks for all the help

Sidhu
May 2, 2005 5:37:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I get it now! a 31band would never let me cut the exact fequency, in
most situations it would cut around it,... Stupid me... can't believe
now that no one uses parametrics around here... si the behringer Shark
any good (feedback destroyer).. maybe ill invest in one later...
priority for me is studio equipment.. but then i make more money doing
live... jeez! sux!

Sidhu
May 2, 2005 6:09:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Also to let you know, for the main PA I use 4 JBL M-Pros (2x2) being
driven by (cheap) stagemaster amps. also 1 Mpro as the front wedge and
1 feeding the drummer. Mackie VLZ 16ch board. And Behringer gear with
the Alesis midiverb.

There is this possiblity that owner of the pub might comission
me for an installation. While i intend to go with Behringer outboard
(cost), i am totally unaware of what works well as a PA for a venue
such as this (max 150 ppl). He has a problem with the PA getting in the
way of the audience/guests... reason i use MPros, on tripods...

Sidhu
May 2, 2005 6:16:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Just reread... dont know if the stagemasters are "cheap" or not. Not my
place to write so. Take my words back. Sorry! :0)

Sidhu
May 2, 2005 7:01:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From the live listing :

"...

also 1 Mpro as the front wedge and
1 feeding the drummer.
-- snip --

Try phase inverting the signal to the monitors. If you do not have the
ability to do this on your board, you can make a cable that will invert
the signal. Alot of times this helps reduce feedback when your mics,
speakers, and wedges are too close together. "

------------------------

intreasting....

Sidhu
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 7:16:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sidhu <nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com> wrote:
>I did not Parametrics were more suited for the job or ringing out a
>system ? Which prametric will allow you as much detail as a 31 band ?
>especially is there are not a few frequencies tending to feedback...
>but quite a few...

Any of them will. You will find that a parametric allows you to notch out
frequencies very precisely. You can put in very tight notches without
affecting other adjacent frequencies as much.

>Scott, what would your choise of gear for this purpose be ?

If you don't have much setup time, it might be one of the Sabine Feedback
Exterminators, which are automated notch filters. If you have time to
set up and do it right, personally I use some of the old Orban 622
parametrics, because that's what I have around that does the job.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 8:36:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sidhu <nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com> wrote:
>Feedback destroyers make me a little nervous, even though i have never
>used one... I am scared that they'll just notch out everything... the
>situation at this venue can get real bad...

You have control over that. You can set the filters, lock them down,
and leave them there.

If you use a feedback destroyer and leave it along without any attention,
it will do horrible things to the sound. The reason they have such a bad
reputation is that people consider them a substitute for actually setting
systems up properly. But they don't have to be.

>I get bout an hour to soundcheck after i setup, and have so far been
>pulling shows withought any major feedback. (maybe a few mild ones,
>taken care of in an instant). On the other hand i was recently called
>to do sound at the last minute for this other show in a pub where I
>managed to get a huge sound in minimum time with the least EQ required.
>Metal band too... so it was LOUD! My main problems occurs in songs
>where the vocalist has softer passages... while audible, there is
>sudden loss of intelligibility. Trying to raise the level is not much
>of an option.

Better microphones will buy you a lot. Notch filters, either manually
or automatically set up, can buy you some, but not as much. Better speakers
can buy you a little. But placement is more important than any of these,
as you probably know.

>With parametrics, i was wondering how many would be needed to notch out
>the number of frequencies that i need to at this venue... did a quick
>search at sweetwater and the best i could locate was a 5 band. Anywaz,
>no one has parametrics here, one reason i was unaware, but id still
>like to know.

You'll find that after you notch out the first three or four modes that it
isn't really worth going any farther. Sometimes if you have two adjacent
modes you can catch them with one slightly wider filter.

But the reason you don't see parametrics is that it takes a little time to
learn to use them, and too many people aren't willing to bother.

>one method that i enploy is to gate/manually gain ride the vocal fader
>when he is not singing. Helps reducing any chance of feedback due to
>careless handling of the microphone (straight into the wedge for a long
>period ?). I also tried monitor and PA speaker placement, but find it
>rather futile since the vocalist likes to hold the mic in his had and
>go around in circles.. ;-)
>
>Also with 31 bands.. i was presuming that they would have a rather
>narrow q. too ?

Not anywhere near as narrow as you can do with even an old Orban. And you
will find that with a 31 band EQ that there are severe changes made to
adjacent bands when you adjust a control.

>another thing that i forgot mentioning, I can get more gain of the main
>PA if the front wedge is turned off or withought the vocal feed.
>Obvious i guess, but i thought id let you know.

Of course. The monitors are usually more of a nightmare than the mains, and
they need to be rung out too. You can get away with monitors that sound
lousy, too, as long as the performers can hear well.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
May 7, 2005 1:01:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hank alrich wrote:
> Sidhu <nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com> wrote:
>
> > I get it now! a 31band would never let me cut the exact fequency,
in
> > most situations it would cut around it,... Stupid me... can't
believe
> > now that no one uses parametrics around here... si the behringer
Shark
> > any good (feedback destroyer).. maybe ill invest in one later...
> > priority for me is studio equipment.. but then i make more money
doing
> > live... jeez! sux!
>
> I think you'd do better with the Behringer DEQ2496, which offers
digital
> implementation of graphic and parametric EQ, with a built-in RTA that
> relates handily to the EQ sections, and feedback destruction that can
be
> locked down or left floating (I don't advise floating), along with
> dynamic EQ (essentially multi-band limiting). One rack space, under
> $400, stereo or dual mono modes, memory registers to store settings.
>
> --
> ha

thanks Hank. ill look into these products.

Sidhu
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 4:14:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sidhu <nitinsidhu@indiatimes.com> wrote:

> I get it now! a 31band would never let me cut the exact fequency, in
> most situations it would cut around it,... Stupid me... can't believe
> now that no one uses parametrics around here... si the behringer Shark
> any good (feedback destroyer).. maybe ill invest in one later...
> priority for me is studio equipment.. but then i make more money doing
> live... jeez! sux!

I think you'd do better with the Behringer DEQ2496, which offers digital
implementation of graphic and parametric EQ, with a built-in RTA that
relates handily to the EQ sections, and feedback destruction that can be
locked down or left floating (I don't advise floating), along with
dynamic EQ (essentially multi-band limiting). One rack space, under
$400, stereo or dual mono modes, memory registers to store settings.

--
ha
!