Analog Open Reel - Good Investment?

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Would it make any sense to buy a high quality analog open reel machine, new
or used, as an investment? Will they increase or decrease in value? This
one seems pricey.

http://www.tascam.com/Products/BR-20/BR-20.html

If not open reel, is there any analog audio equipment still available new
that will be in demand at a good price after manufacturing stops?

Thanks,
Merkan

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Merkan wrote:

> Would it make any sense to buy a high quality analog open reel machine, new
> or used, as an investment? Will they increase or decrease in value? This
> one seems pricey.

Pro Audio equipment rarely make a good investment. That is if by
"investment" you mean something that you will be able to sell for a
higher price than what you purchased it for. Audio equipment can be
considered an investment if by purchasing a piece of gear, you are able
to take on more jobs or charge more for your services. There are very
few pieces that if purchased at the right time, for the right price
would provide a very nice return. A Fairchild 670 comes to mind.
However, it is nearly impossible to anticipate what is going to provide
a good return in the future. Almost all of the gear depreciates.

> http://www.tascam.com/Products/BR-20/BR-20.html

The Tascam is definitely not something to look at as an investment. I
don't think tape machines in general are anything to consider.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

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Merkan wrote:

> Would it make any sense to buy a high quality analog open reel machine, new
> or used, as an investment? Will they increase or decrease in value? This
> one seems pricey.
>
> http://www.tascam.com/Products/BR-20/BR-20.html
>
> If not open reel, is there any analog audio equipment still available new
> that will be in demand at a good price after manufacturing stops?

When manufacturing stops it's usually for a good reason - like the new model is
better and cheaper.

A Tascam is only a 'pro-sumer' product anyway - it's value will be largely as
junk.

Graham

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"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message
news:117agdc49qal07e@corp.supernews.com...
> "Merkan" wrote ...
>> Would it make any sense to buy a high quality analog open reel machine,
>> new or used, as an investment? Will they increase or decrease in value?
>> This one seems pricey.
>>
>> http://www.tascam.com/Products/BR-20/BR-20.html
>>
>> If not open reel, is there any analog audio equipment still available new
>> that will be in demand at a good price after manufacturing stops?
>
> Suggest reading the archives on the discussion of the decline
> of analog audio tape recording and the status of the suppliers
> of the raw tape stock.


If your only interest is to REPLAY analogue tape, new tape stock shortage
isn't really a factor.

That said, anybody is welcome to buy my A77. But only becasue I just
picked a a B77 !

geoff

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Merkan wrote:

> Would it make any sense to buy a high quality analog open reel machine,
> new
> or used, as an investment? Will they increase or decrease in value? This
> one seems pricey.
>
> http://www.tascam.com/Products/BR-20/BR-20.html
>
> If not open reel, is there any analog audio equipment still available new
> that will be in demand at a good price after manufacturing stops?

What I'd like to know is how you got to that page. I was under the
impression that the BR20 had already been dropped.. I certainly can't find
the machine by navigating the website.

> Thanks,
> Merkan

--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Fun things to do with the Ultima games http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> Sure, a Martin D-45 might be worth a million bucks
> today, but nobody who has one is willing to sell it for anything
> that's been offered recently. And it's too valuable to play.

One example of the many moronic *Spinal Tap* type collectors out and about. I still
don't get the point of owning a guitar but not playing it.

I have a friend in another group whose buddy house-sat Stephen Stills house. He said
there were 3 White Falcons sitting in stands where the foam rubber on the neck
support had fused to the back of the necks. What's the point....I just don't get
it...he should of just gave the guitars away.

PapaNate

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blckout420@aol.com wrote:
> Why not get its value by using it?
>
> Other than that, why would you want to spend the money?
>


Damn it! Don't confuse us with logic.

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William Sommerwerck <williams@nwlink.com> wrote:
>In my opinion, analog tape recorders will continue to be used for some time by
>people who prefer analog sound, as long as blank tape remains available.
>
>But so much analog equipment has been dumped at low prices, it's highly unlikely
>any of it will rise in value. Look on eBay and see what a Nagra or Sony
>professional open-reel machine goes for. Not much.

I see that equipment rising in value, just because currently it is a glut
on the market and selling for very cheaply right now.

Just like all that tube junk that people were tossing out in the seventies.
If you'd bought a stack of Fairchild 670s for a hundred bucks or so each
back then, you'd be a rich man.

>J. Gordon Holt, founder of The Stereophile, bought one of the Sony pros and says
>it's the best analog recorder he's ever owned.
>
>TASCAM products are mediocre. They're no investment.

That is true. What will be investment is going to be a mixture of top-grade
gear, and the occasional oddity that does something very unusual (like
say the Roland 808).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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"Papanate" <nospamagain@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:42762974.234B4E58@nc.rr.com...
>
> One example of the many moronic *Spinal Tap* type collectors out and
> about. I still
> don't get the point of owning a guitar but not playing it.
>
> PapaNate

I'll plead guilty to having a guitar that I display but never play. It's a
1962 Gibson Melody Maker.

I don't play it because it's autographed by Les Paul. Les just happened to
sign it *exactly* where the inside of your right forearm would rest while
you are playing it, so the signature would get worn off if the guitar is
played.....

But I'm not complaining!

malachi

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I thought about that or something similar.

Scotch tape and saran wrap might do in a pinch.

Sorry, Les.

malachi

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message
news:117f5qn6kr34nf9@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Malachi" <malachiLOSETHISTOREPLY@trentes.com> wrote in message
> news:mkMde.513$y03.191@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>> "Papanate" <nospamagain@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:42762974.234B4E58@nc.rr.com...
>>>
>>> One example of the many moronic *Spinal Tap* type collectors out and
>>> about. I still
>>> don't get the point of owning a guitar but not playing it.
>>>
>>> PapaNate
>>
>> I'll plead guilty to having a guitar that I display but never play. It's
>> a 1962 Gibson Melody Maker.
>>
>> I don't play it because it's autographed by Les Paul. Les just happened
>> to sign it *exactly* where the inside of your right forearm would rest
>> while you are playing it, so the signature would get worn off if the
>> guitar is played.....
>
> You could make a plexiglas "clip" to protect it while playing.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott is wording this correctly. In most cases, these items don't
really increase in value, they just retain their value following the
value of the dollar and some relation to new prices of similar or like
gear.
Take the U87. What did they cost when they first came out? I bet if
you did one of those calculations of the value of the dollar in that
year to this year, it'd be about equal.
This would probably apply to just about all gear. Now, if you had a
magic ball and could tell for sure which small percentage of gear will
attain cult status and the value really increases enough to warrant
hording them for years......fairchilds, certain neumann or akg mics,
58-60 les paul bursts, custom shop fender guitars, etc....then you need
to stop worrying about recording gear and either go to Vegas or buy
into the stock market where you can make some serious money.
later,
m

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mwood5nospam@yahoo.com wrote:

> Economics isn't a matter of addition and subtraction. Food,
> gasoline, etc...it all goes up in price. Does that mean that a loaf of
> bread is "worth more" than it was 20 years ago? No. Your dollar just
> doesn't go as far.

Umm, those items are not durable goods. A 20 year old loaf of bread
isn't worth anything to anybody.

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genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:

why invest in a standard that is dying?

What you "invest" in are tools to get the job done. If a person makes
quality music on an analog tape machine then it was a successful
investment.

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Scott Dorsey wrote:

>>Umm, those items are not durable goods. A 20 year old loaf of bread
>>isn't worth anything to anybody.
>
>
> Neither is a 20-year-old Pioneer.

I bet there are plenty of old Pioneer units out there still working
fine. Especially some of the power amps, those things were built like
tanks. I think I would stay away from the reel to reels, though,
especially the auto-reverse models.

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Joe Sensor wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> >
> > Neither is a 20-year-old Pioneer.
>
> I bet there are plenty of old Pioneer units out there still working
> fine. Especially some of the power amps, those things were built like

> tanks. I think I would stay away from the reel to reels, though,
> especially the auto-reverse models.

I just played some open reel tapes from the 'archive'
for guests Saturday night on my Pioneer RT701.
The unit plays fine, sounds fine. (for what it is...)
The limitation of the unit is not that it's a
"20-year old Pioneer", but that it uses the
quarter-track stereo format - a consumer format
that I've always had reservations about.
The unit has held up much better than various
Akai, Teac/Tascam, Dokorder, Sony, etc 1/4 track
machines over the years.

I simply have too much material on 1/4" both
half and quarter track to toss out and making
transfers of even a small portion would take
the rest of my life. So for me keeping open reel
machines available (for both quarter and half track)
for playback is a need.
Having said that, I would never invest in
the formats if I wasn't already in deep.
YMMV

rd

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Joe Sensor <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>Umm, those items are not durable goods. A 20 year old loaf of bread
>>>isn't worth anything to anybody.
>>
>> Neither is a 20-year-old Pioneer.
>
>I bet there are plenty of old Pioneer units out there still working
>fine. Especially some of the power amps, those things were built like
>tanks. I think I would stay away from the reel to reels, though,
>especially the auto-reverse models.

Yes, this is true. BUT, the stuff isn't worth anything, even if it is
working fine. That's the way the market works. Consumer electronics are
not durable goods any more, and haven't been for years. Pro audio gear...
well, there's some stuff you can depreciate on a 30-year schedule still.
But there's less and less every year.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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Klay Anderson <klay@klay.com> wrote:
>In article <1115150865.347912.145760@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> analog tape is going the way of the caribou. every year, less machines
>> alive, less machines used, less hours used, less tape used.
>>
>> why invest in a standard that is dying?
>
>Some don't have that luxury. We deal a lot with countries in Africa and Europe
>and the old reel-to-reel stuff is hot! It is really hard to find new machines
>for them (220-volt, you know) but it is what they prefer and have a lot of.

Where are they getting tape from? Now that Zonal is gone, is it all coming
from JAI in India?

My hope is that with the drop in the dollar, the US manufacturers will actually
be able to compete in the broadcast-grade tape marketplace.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

True, but it doesn't matter what item you plug in to talk about. Let's
talk about anything here. An SM57. Do they cost more than they did 20
years ago? So, if you would have purchased as many as you could find
20 years ago, would they be worth more today? Yes. But, what if you
took that same money and invested in a municipal bond or anything that
rose at a rate greater than inflation? You'd have more money. That's
all I'm saying. Investing in recording gear and speculating on what
current, cheap gear is going to be worth something is moronic.
later,
m
>
> Umm, those items are not durable goods. A 20 year old loaf of bread
> isn't worth anything to anybody.

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"Joe Sensor" <crabcakes@emagic.net> wrote in message
>> Not even on eBay?
>
> Well, maybe if there is an imprint of the Virgin Mary on there..

I wiped my arse the other day, and I could swear an image of the sweet
virgin appeared on the bog-paper. I wonder how much ....


geoff

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3dqlrmF6vkk6aU1@individual.net> crabcakes@emagic.net writes:

> >>Umm, those items are not durable goods. A 20 year old loaf of bread
> >>isn't worth anything to anybody.

> > Not even on eBay?

> Well, maybe if there is an imprint of the Virgin Mary on there..

That's easily done. How many do you think we can sell, and for how
much? I'll get the oven warmed up and hit the junk shops for a statue
of The VM to make the imprints.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

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"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1115158863k@trad...
>
> In article <3dq8ouF6ubhegU1@individual.net> crabcakes@emagic.net writes:
>
> > Umm, those items are not durable goods. A 20 year old loaf of bread
> > isn't worth anything to anybody.
>
> Not even on eBay?


Only if it sprouting mold in the form of a religious icon.


> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <znr1115158863k@trad>, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

> In article <3dq8ouF6ubhegU1@individual.net> crabcakes@emagic.net writes:
>
> > Umm, those items are not durable goods. A 20 year old loaf of bread
> > isn't worth anything to anybody.
>
> Not even on eBay?
>

Well, if it has the image of the Virgin Mary...

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

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I totally agree with what you're saying. You're talking about buying
smart. Buying quality used gear that holds it's value. The original
question was talking about buying recording gear...more specifically
open reel tape decks as an investment. That's what's crazy. What you
do is on the money...you buy used...get a better price on gear than
new. Use it...make money on it...then, down the road can sell it for
what you paid or maybe even a bit more.
I do that ALL the time, but I'd hardly call it an investment strategy.
later,
m

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Papanate wrote:

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>
>>IME unplayable DVDs are pretty easy to recover, if your
>>house has running water and you know how to use it with a
>>little soap. Try that with tapes!
>
>
> You must have some pretty hard water...stuff that can buff out scratches
> and return data to it's organic state is pretty rare.
>

Arny knows his 0's and 1's. If any are missing, he just fills them in
with a green marker.

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genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:

> analog tape is going the way of the caribou. every year, less machines
> alive, less machines used, less hours used, less tape used.
>
> why invest in a standard that is dying?

Assuming this is not just a troll, here are several reasons:

* Because no-one has settled on a replacement format

Digital has gone through 32khz, 44, 48, 64, 88, 96, 192 in increasing
bit depths and this shows no sign of abating. It seems likely that
linear PCM could be replaced in general use by some other coding format,
perhaps just floating-point PCM, but also PWM or perhaps some other
format entirely. In most cases, conversion will introduce artifacts.

Since digital formats are continually dying, one could perfectly
well ask the same question.. why invest in a dying standard?

* Because analogue stability is a known factor

Stability of the physical media is more of a known issue on analogue
than any digital format bar tape, and digital tape seems to be on its
way out too. Analogue tape has its own problems of course, but there
are known fixes for that, and analogue degrades gracefully.

Digital tends to be either wholly readable, corrupted or gone depending
on the extent of the damage, how compressed it is, and how much
error-correction is used.

I'm not saying that analogue is the be-all-and-end-all for archiving,
but you must accept that analogue archiving is better understood.
IMHO if you truly care about something, you should archive it in as
many different forms as you can, analogue included.

(Tape was supposed to be dead for data backup to. That was over
10 years ago. It still isn't.)

* Because analogue tape is close-to-the-metal

In 30 years time, given suitable engineering skills you could MAKE
a tape deck from scratch.

Try to make a DVD-type machine from basic principles 30 years from
now when the standards are lost and forgotten, or the information
has been deliberately destroyed/suppressed through Palladium or some
similar DRM system. First you'd have to design a way to track a
disk using a laser of the right wavelength, and get the reflectivity
levels. You won't immediately know if you've got it right either
since the raw binary data will have to go through several subsequent
processes before we can learn if we're decoding the data correctly
at the physical level.

You'll probably have to reconstruct the data from some kind
of lookup table as well, if it works anything like CD coding.
Don't know what's supposed to be in the lookup table? Uhh...
Next, you'll have to decode the filesystem, some obsolete standard
from over 50 years ago. Oh, and the files will be encrypted.
Don't know what the (trade-secret/DMCA-protected) key is? Uhh...

Okay, so we've managed to discover the physical coding scheme,
reverse-engineered the filesystem, decrypted the data (probably
illegally), how do we get at the audio data? We have to
run it through a proprietary CODEC of some description which could
use anything from DCT to wavelets to god-knows-what.
Then you'll have to convert the actual raw PCM data to whatever
digital audio format you need to output as.

Or, you could build a machine that pulls tape across a pair of wire
coils at 15 inches a second and amplifies the induced current
up to audio level. (And then imposes some equalisation curve upon it)

* No DRM

There have been attempts by the US government to outlaw most existing
digital recording systems and replace them with a copy-protected system
which will be rather.. inconvenient.. for recording studios and the
like). So far, this has failed, but analogue won't have that problem
unless ADCs and DACs are outlawed, in which case nothing matters
anymore anyway.

[danger: the following links will take you on a paranoia trip!]
http://www.uniquehardware.ca/artic [...] cle1.1.php
http://www.eff.org/endangered/list.php#converters

* Because it's fun

I decided to use analogue tape because it's different to computer-based
editing. I think it's more fun. Obviously, people will have a
different opinions and agendas. Someone who records for their own
entertainment will have different constraints than someone who works
with audio for a living.

I also had a feeling that it was declining, and I decided that I wanted
to try my hand at it while it was still possible.

> my guess is that the decline-in-use curve would look something like
> y=1/x. eventually 12 years from now it will be riding real low near
> zero for the few kooks who are hanging on and the occasional
> remastering of an old rock album into the latest digital standard.

The same thing was said about valves, too. Now what do we have?
Stupid, stupid prices for valve amps.. kits alone for 650 pounds!
Korg, putting high-voltage valve circuitry into digital synthesizers.
My dad almost choked when he saw THAT advert.

There was also a time when you could pick up a Minimoog, or a Prophet
or an Oberheim for practically nothing. God, I wish I had.

It may be that tape is headed for the dustcart, but I hope not because
I feel that people who want to use it, or are just looking for a
different way of doing things should be allowed the choice.
Pick the best tool for the job.

Cheers,

--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Fun things to do with the Ultima games http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)