hearing, frequency, BBE process, and all related matters

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Okay. So I have been giving this BBE process thingy soome thought.
Supposedly speaker inductance delays frequencies by a progressive
amount as the frequency gets higher. BBE explains their process as a
correction so that you can hear music over a speaker as you do live.
One interesting conunudrum is that even live, you are usually hearing
the instruments over an array of speakers (guitar and bass amps and PA)
so it seems the problem would still exist.

In thinking about this it came to mind that at low frequencies the
cycle time in milliseconds is close to the time that a human can
recognize an actual delay. A 40 hz bass wave is a 20 ms cycle. So
there would already be a delay in recognition of a lower frequency
correct? Can anyone recall how long it takes to recognize frequency
audibly? Is it a whole cycle? or more or less. I can see how delaying
the bass might add clarity but seems like it could get wonky quick.


How many of you use some process to improve this or a similary process?
I have never used BBE because from listening to the difference between
a mix with it or one without I didn't see a positive difference and
even thought it was worse. I also figured it would end up making my
mixes sound canned over time.

I do sometimes use an exciter. I use to consider it sort of cheating
and assumed the client wanted to at least first hear the mix in its'
most natural state but for the most part that is wrong. Might as well
thrown in the fuzzy dice and the cheap gift wrapping.

Your thoughts welcome.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

transmogrifa <mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote:
>Okay. So I have been giving this BBE process thingy soome thought.
>Supposedly speaker inductance delays frequencies by a progressive
>amount as the frequency gets higher. BBE explains their process as a
>correction so that you can hear music over a speaker as you do live.
>One interesting conunudrum is that even live, you are usually hearing
>the instruments over an array of speakers (guitar and bass amps and PA)
>so it seems the problem would still exist.

The BBE process does add adjustable group delay, like the manual says.
But what really makes it work is that it adds high order even harmonics
to make things sound artificially bright.

>In thinking about this it came to mind that at low frequencies the
>cycle time in milliseconds is close to the time that a human can
>recognize an actual delay. A 40 hz bass wave is a 20 ms cycle. So
>there would already be a delay in recognition of a lower frequency
>correct? Can anyone recall how long it takes to recognize frequency
>audibly? Is it a whole cycle? or more or less. I can see how delaying
>the bass might add clarity but seems like it could get wonky quick.

Actually adding group delay isn't all that audible. You can try the
box from Little Labs that actually _does_ add group delay and allow you
to change this stuff. By itself, it doesn't make much of a difference
in sound.

>How many of you use some process to improve this or a similary process?
> I have never used BBE because from listening to the difference between
>a mix with it or one without I didn't see a positive difference and
>even thought it was worse. I also figured it would end up making my
>mixes sound canned over time.
>
>I do sometimes use an exciter. I use to consider it sort of cheating
>and assumed the client wanted to at least first hear the mix in its'
>most natural state but for the most part that is wrong. Might as well
>thrown in the fuzzy dice and the cheap gift wrapping.

The BBE box is basically an exciter. The spectrum it produces is different
than the Aphex and Rolls boxes, but the general effect is the same. The
"True Dimensional Sound" gadget also does the same thing. You may want to
listen to the BBE box because it can be a useful alternative to the Aphex.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> < ...snip.. >
>
> The BBE box is basically an exciter. The spectrum it produces is different
> than the Aphex and Rolls boxes, but the general effect is the same. The
> "True Dimensional Sound" gadget also does the same thing. You may want to
> listen to the BBE box because it can be a useful alternative to the Aphex.
> --scott
>

Yo Scott,

Do you know anything about the dbx project 1 "spectral enhancer"?
I found one in an "as is" bin for cheap (one broken switch) and I've
found it useful for some of my bluegrass festivals. Don't have a
clue exactly what it does but it's a different flavor than the Aphex
of BBE boxes (haven't heard the Rolls).

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"transmogrifa" <mmeprod@mmeproductions.com> wrote in message
news:1115395470.449277.35820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Okay. So I have been giving this BBE process thingy soome thought.
> Supposedly speaker inductance delays frequencies by a progressive
> amount as the frequency gets higher. BBE explains their process as a
> correction so that you can hear music over a speaker as you do live.
> One interesting conunudrum is that even live, you are usually hearing
> the instruments over an array of speakers (guitar and bass amps and PA)
> so it seems the problem would still exist.
>
> In thinking about this it came to mind that at low frequencies the
> cycle time in milliseconds is close to the time that a human can
> recognize an actual delay. A 40 hz bass wave is a 20 ms cycle. So
> there would already be a delay in recognition of a lower frequency
> correct? Can anyone recall how long it takes to recognize frequency
> audibly? Is it a whole cycle? or more or less. I can see how delaying
> the bass might add clarity but seems like it could get wonky quick.
>
>
> How many of you use some process to improve this or a similary process?
> I have never used BBE because from listening to the difference between
> a mix with it or one without I didn't see a positive difference and
> even thought it was worse. I also figured it would end up making my
> mixes sound canned over time.
>
> I do sometimes use an exciter. I use to consider it sort of cheating
> and assumed the client wanted to at least first hear the mix in its'
> most natural state but for the most part that is wrong. Might as well
> thrown in the fuzzy dice and the cheap gift wrapping.
>
> Your thoughts welcome.
>
> Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com
>

Here is a BBE directX plugin demo if you have software that supports directX
plugins that is! http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/b [...] ?.dir=/BBE
It inserts a second of silence every 5 seconds into the process.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike,

> BBE explains their process as a correction <

That explanation is pure marketing BS. If Scott says the BBE box actually
includes group delay / phase shift I'll take that at face value. But there's
no way a generic box could compensate for all the different speaker models
and crossover frequencies that are out there. It's just not possible. And
why should adding phase shift make things "clearer" anyway? Obviously the
main effect is added grunge, which might be useful to add some top end to a
dull track or mix. But why does BBE feel they have to make up nonsense about
"correcting" loudspeakers?

--Ethan

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob,

> Well, if you accept that speakers have group delay that increases with
frequency <

Okay, but group delay is not a problem. The comb filtering that occurs in
the air from two drivers outputting the same content near the crossover
frequency is a problem. But that's a different issue, with no cure other
than a redesigned crossover.

> I've played quite a bit with this business of pulling transients out front
of the stuff they stimulate via group delay manipulation. <

How have you done that? Hardware? Software?

--Ethan

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message ....

> You can
> generate the allpass by creating a group delay curve as a
> function of frequency, taking the discrete derivative of it,
> taking the IFFT of that with a flat magnitude function and
> doing some judicious windowing. That yields an FIR which
> can be convolved with material in Audition (Cool Edit Pro
> back when I was playing with this.)


Some of you guys just have too much free time...


;-)