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Adding a VU meter to a mackie

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Anonymous
May 15, 2005 1:06:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy

More about : adding meter mackie

Anonymous
May 15, 2005 4:20:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Announcer" wrote ...
> Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Knock their grade down by 1/2 step for each occurence of
clipping. Might sharpen their concentration.

Giving them a crutch of a larger display is just teaching them to
be lazy. I wouldn't hire any of your graduates if that is how you
are teaching them. You can tell them what the sentiment is
"out here in the real world".

As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 5:24:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Announcer" <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1116129979.871538.269120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Bill Brophy
>

Students and even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously lackadaisical
in watching their levels.

Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
processing handle it. If used for production something like an Aphex
Compellor is needed on the mixers output.

The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
processing.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 8:18:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

What are the students supposed to glean from the meters in regards to
running sessions?
If they can;t deal with LED's what are they going to misread with VU meters
which require knowledgable interpretation of what they indicate?
Maybe a set of the large DORROUGHS would be more helpful?



On 5/15/05 12:06 AM, in article
1116129979.871538.269120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Announcer"
<bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Bill Brophy
>
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 9:46:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Announcer wrote:

> Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Since VU meters are useless ( too slow responding ) for almost any
practical use - what would that achieve ?

Small led ladders are the norm now.

Maybe you should give your students eye tests ? Or even teach them *not*
to ignore the led meters. Is that *really* too hard ? Are students really
that intellectually challenged these days ? I'd have *loved* to have fast
peak reading led meters around when I was a student.

Graham
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 9:46:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Since VU meters are useless (too slow-responding) for
> almost any practical use - what would that achieve ?

> Small led ladders are the norm now.

Good point. VU meters make sense with recording media that do not have a defined
overload or "clipping" point, such as analog tape.

Digital is different. You need metering that responds "instantly" and shows the
exact clip point.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 10:21:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> Since VU meters are useless (too slow-responding) for
>> almost any practical use - what would that achieve ?
>
>> Small led ladders are the norm now.
>
> Good point. VU meters make sense with recording media that
do not
> have a defined overload or "clipping" point, such as
analog tape.
>
> Digital is different. You need metering that responds
"instantly" and
> shows the exact clip point.

Experience shows that a simple clip light gets the job done.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 10:21:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Experience shows that a simple clip light gets the job done.

True with respect to clipping, but I'd like something that gives an indication
of overall level.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 11:58:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

TimPerry wrote:

> "Announcer" <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1116129979.871538.269120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> > see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> > console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> > console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> > to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> > What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Bill Brophy
>
> Students and even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously lackadaisical
> in watching their levels.

I've noticed that in every US film or TV series, the VUs are 'pegging' whenever
they're in shot.


> Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
> processing handle it. If used for production something like an Aphex
> Compellor is needed on the mixers output.
>
> The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
> processing.

Alternatively you could try to teach those students some skills ! Unless that's
too radical or controversial a concept ?

Graham
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 12:03:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"TimPerry" <timperry@noaspamadelphia.net> wrote:
>
> [...] even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously lackadaisical
> in watching their levels.



Bullshit. Look at my sig.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 12:05:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:
>
> As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
> mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
> modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.


Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 12:26:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
too. We have a dbx comp/limiter on the outputs but that is no excuse
for not watching levels and setting levels properly. A compressor on
the output is nice but it does not solve all problems with poor levels
as someone suggested. I am an old school type of guy who still believes
that VUs are a valuable tool especially with spoken word material
because it shows average. What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
over-all output level in a good sight line? Trust me ... in the courses
I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it apparent
to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
importatnt looking meters to show them the levels. I came from the
radio business where the VU meters were in the most important position
on most consoles. Just a hard habit to break I guess.

Bill Brophy
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 1:27:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Just a hard habit to break I guess.

But a good one. I've never seen a digital recorder whose display was limited to
one clipping light per channel!

The point about gain structure is well-taken. You can't understand that unless
you have some sort of wide-range display, be it VU or LED.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 3:11:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Lorin David Schultz wrote:

> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:
> >
> > As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
> > mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
> > modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.
>
> Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
> will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.

Not so actually.

Graham
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 3:38:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

DAMN ... it sure would be nice if I knew how to TYPE!

Either that or I need to quit drinking!


No, It's the glasses ... I need to have my eyes checked again.

Brophy
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 4:10:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Announcer" wrote ...
> The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
> clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
> set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
> line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
> too.

That is perfect to train them to work in the real world.
Congratulations on setting up an excellent simulator of
real working conditions! :-)

> We have a dbx comp/limiter on the outputs but that is no excuse
> for not watching levels and setting levels properly. A compressor on
> the output is nice but it does not solve all problems with poor levels
> as someone suggested. I am an old school type of guy who still
> believes
> that VUs are a valuable tool especially with spoken word material
> because it shows average. What's wrong with a big ass meter showing
> the
> over-all output level in a good sight line? Trust me ... in the
> courses
> I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
> structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
> enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it
> apparent
> to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
> importatnt looking meters to show them the levels.

But then what happens when they have to go out and work in the
Real World(TM) where all they have is LED ladders that "aren't
big enough or important enough to get proper attention"? Seems
to me that the training is to use *the equipment at hand* to produce
the best sound possible.

> I came from the radio business where the VU meters were in the
> most important position on most consoles. Just a hard habit to
> break I guess.

Maybe you *are* projecting the preferences you formed when you
were learning equipment of that era. I know the feeling. There
were no LED "meters" around when I started, either. But I learned
first-hand that those old meters don't cut it in the digital world.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 4:22:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bill
If you are hell-bent intent on having Virtually Useless metering on your
Mackie outputs, then at least ensure they are each driven by a unity-gain
buffer (with low Z o/p) and the compulsory series resistor.
Do *not* attach the VU Meter + 3k6 directly - as it places a non-linear
rectifier bridge across the audio it is measuring. Ugh!

"Announcer" <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1116129979.871538.269120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Bill Brophy
>
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 4:26:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Announcer" wrote ...
> The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
> clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all.

If I wanted a visual aid for riding levels, I'd use a laptop with
Audacity (free at http://sourceforge.net/projects/audacity/) or
a similar application that shows the audio envelope on-screen.
Useful either in real-time, or after-the-fact for reviews (or "post-
mortems") of projects/programs, etc.

You can show them what samples of commercial TV look like
and then their own stuff. They can see for themselves what the
problems are practically in a single glance.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 6:32:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4286F304.A673B87E@hotmail.com...
> TimPerry wrote:
>
> > "Announcer" <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:1116129979.871538.269120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> > > see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> > > console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> > > console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> > > to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> > > What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
> > >

a quick and dirty way would be to position any recorder with sutible sized
meters just under (or over) the video mon, hook record inputs to the stereo
mix. use a D/A if available.

something like a tascam 122 casette would work.

> > > Thanks in advance
> > >
> > > Bill Brophy
> >
> > Students and even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously
lackadaisical
> > in watching their levels.
>
> I've noticed that in every US film or TV series, the VUs are 'pegging'
whenever
> they're in shot.

unfortunatly too true in real life too... sometimes.

>
>
> > Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
> > processing handle it. If used for production something like an Aphex
> > Compellor is needed on the mixers output.
> >
> > The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
> > processing.
>
> Alternatively you could try to teach those students some skills ! Unless
that's
> too radical or controversial a concept ?
>
> Graham
>

the radio guys say that TV only notices audio when it isnt there.

teach them to run the board low so the commercials really stand out!
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 7:47:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Announcer" <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1116129979.871538.269120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Bill Brophy
>

I would like to place this kind of meters to my setup just for fun. and to
follow actual loudness
of material I work with. I am sure not to clip but this nothing to do with
it. Is there cheapo solution
for this? dont need to put the meter on signal path since I have pair of
control-out free.
because some VU meter has pretty slow attack and even slower release its
nice to follow this kind of specs of audio as well.

..jukka
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 9:03:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Announcer wrote:

> The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
> clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
> set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
> line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
> too. We have a dbx comp/limiter on the outputs but that is no excuse
> for not watching levels and setting levels properly. A compressor on
> the output is nice but it does not solve all problems with poor levels
> as someone suggested. I am an old school type of guy who still believes
> that VUs are a valuable tool especially with spoken word material
> because it shows average. What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
> over-all output level in a good sight line? Trust me ... in the courses
> I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
> structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
> enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it apparent
> to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
> importatnt looking meters to show them the levels. I came from the
> radio business where the VU meters were in the most important position
> on most consoles. Just a hard habit to break I guess.

Ok - how about mounting them in a simple wooden box like this. That can be
easily placed in the sight line.

http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/productdetails.aspx?p...

Scary price for a pair of powered PPMs though.

Graham
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 9:06:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Announcer <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
>see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
>console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
>console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
>to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
>What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Get large VU meters. Put them on the output of the console. Make
sure they are bridged with a 600 ohm load.

But don't believe them... the Mackie doesn't like driving normal levels
and you really want something that reads 20 dB higher than reality.

I suppose a Dorrough is out of the question? The problem is that most
gear doesn't have real VU meters any more, so there's nothing to salvage
any longer unless you go _way_ back. And a Simpson VU meter movement
is something like $180 now.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 9:13:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Lorin David Schultz wrote:
>
>> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
>> > mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
>> > modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.
>>
>> Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
>> will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.
>
>Not so actually.

Try it. Starting around -20dB on the meter, the console starts sounding
funny. You have a range of something like 25 dB between clipping and
the beginning of some glassy distortion. One of the secrets to getting
good sound out of the Mackies is to keep levels way down.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 10:17:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If simple VU meters are not telling you enough about analogue levels....
The Studer stereo recorder B67 had a meter/cct-switching bridge (option)
above the rear of the deck having 2 large, lit VUs; just above each meter
was an overload red LED. The sensitivities and onsets of either device could
be adjusted by presets on their driver cards located inside a nest.
Possibly other Studer hardware used this eye-catching combination.
This add-on gave VUs an easily noticeable warning if you overdid it, and it
ran reliably from 20V-24V dc.

I used to line up O/Ls to strike at +0.3dB above peak level at 1kHz. The
tape itself had 4dB of headroom above Peak, anyway. Mind you, the desks had
proper A/B and M/S+20 dual PPMs and output levels were monitored
continually..
..

"J.A.A." <hyeena@fi.sci> wrote in message
news:rBHhe.1039$Vb4.825@reader1.news.jippii.net...
>
> "Announcer" <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1116129979.871538.269120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
>> see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
>> console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
>> console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
>> to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
>> What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Bill Brophy
>>
>
> I would like to place this kind of meters to my setup just for fun. and to
> follow actual loudness
> of material I work with. I am sure not to clip but this nothing to do with
> it. Is there cheapo solution
> for this? dont need to put the meter on signal path since I have pair of
> control-out free.
> because some VU meter has pretty slow attack and even slower release its
> nice to follow this kind of specs of audio as well.
>
> .jukka
>
>
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 12:21:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
>>
>> Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to
>> zero will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.


"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not so actually.


That's it? Care to elaborate on why you're declaring my statement
erroneous?

My experience with the Mackie, especially the SR series, is that it
starts making unpretty sound once it gets past the green lights. A
"proper" meter is going to correlate 0 to +4dBu, which is already 4dB
past the Mackie's safe zone. Add VU ballistics to the equation and the
Mackie is going to be huffing and puffing by the time that mechanical
meter reaches 0.

So I say "is so!" So THERE! <g>

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 12:21:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Go to www.jameco.com and check out their Part # 313904
"LED VU Meter Kit"
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 2:44:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:

> Knock their grade down by 1/2 step for each occurence of
> clipping. Might sharpen their concentration.

Reminds me of something I saw a few years ago: a New York hot shot had
come to our regional-class studio (dragging three double-sided 5 foot
rolling cases of all his own outboard -- would have been easier to
disassemble our studio and ship it to him, but that's another story...)
for a local artist the lable was hoping to break nationally. I came in
for my intern shift, and one of the first things I noticed was a small
pile of dollar bills in the center of the SSL. Then later the assistant
engineer came to me with a five dollar bill, asking if I had any ones.
He told me, "Every time I make a mistake, he makes me pay him a dollar.
He say's that how he sharpens his assistants."
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 2:49:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Announcer wrote:

> What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
> over-all output level in a good sight line?

Absolutely nothing. That's how the big boys do it. (But usually the big
boys have the budget for Dorroughs...)
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:19:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/15/05 12:46 AM, in article 4286D415.FC874057@hotmail.com, "Pooh Bear"
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:


> Since VU meters are useless ( too slow responding ) for almost any
> practical use - what would that achieve ?

Oy... HUGELY useful... But that'll be another pointless thread..


>
> Small led ladders are the norm now.

With what response time? LED ladders with Somebody's Official Idea Of
Average or Something is a whole lot worse than real VU meters...
Real Peak Reading Leds SCARE people...
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:19:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SSJVCmag" wrote ...
> With what response time? LED ladders with Somebody's Official Idea Of
> Average or Something is a whole lot worse than real VU meters...
> Real Peak Reading Leds SCARE people...

Good. The people behind some of the audio I've heard on TV
at times need a good dose of fright.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:19:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SSJVCmag wrote:
> On 5/15/05 12:46 AM, in article 4286D415.FC874057@hotmail.com, "Pooh Bear"
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Since VU meters are useless ( too slow responding ) for almost any
>> practical use - what would that achieve ?
>
>
> Oy... HUGELY useful... But that'll be another pointless thread..
>
>
>
>> Small led ladders are the norm now.
>
>
> With what response time? LED ladders with Somebody's Official Idea Of
> Average or Something is a whole lot worse than real VU meters...
> Real Peak Reading Leds SCARE people...


The LED meters on the Sound Devices mixers are pretty damn useful in
their combined peak/VU mode.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:23:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/15/05 1:24 AM, in article ptedndK0gOOyQBvfRVn-1Q@adelphia.com,
"TimPerry" <timperry@noaspamadelphia.net> wrote:


> Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
> processing handle it.

Goldener Words I know not of.

Give em real VU meters calibrated to 0VU = -20 relative to clipping/0dBfs
and metal contacts on the board arm rests and seat so when they actually
hit -6dBfs they get 30hz modulated off an ignition coil


> If used for production something like an Aphex
> Compellor is needed on the mixers output.
>
> The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
> processing.

\Before you hit the Compellor, you need headroom-assured through the chain.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:25:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/15/05 4:05 AM, in article tpDhe.116398$3V3.18297@edtnps89, "Lorin David
Schultz" <Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca> wrote:

> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:
>>
>> As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
>> mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
>> modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.
>
>
> Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
> will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.

Are you folks REALLY trying to hang real VU meters right across the line???
Like since 1980? Like BUFFER AMP dude, with like a calibration trim...
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:26:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/15/05 6:21 AM, in article KK2dnfemLf-FvhrfRVn-pw@comcast.com, "Arny
Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>> Since VU meters are useless (too slow-responding) for
>>> almost any practical use - what would that achieve ?
>>
>>> Small led ladders are the norm now.
>>
>> Good point. VU meters make sense with recording media that
> do not
>> have a defined overload or "clipping" point, such as
> analog tape.
>>
>> Digital is different. You need metering that responds
> "instantly" and
>> shows the exact clip point.
>
> Experience shows that a simple clip light gets the job done.

Driving a source that'll do 12V AC into an ignition coil...


>
>
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:33:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/15/05 11:26 AM, in article
1116170819.272453.93800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Announcer"
<bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote:

> The problem I have (IS) with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all.
(SNIP) I am an old school type of guy who still believes
> that VUs are a valuable tool

OK, with this in mind...

> What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
> over-all output level in a good sight line?

Nothing really, and in this case, I'd say slap the meter AFTER the comp and
then ENFORCS the idea of 'Levels Always Living -5 to +2' and dock-em when
they goof. Hell, Mutual aRadio actually WORKED this way in its later
years... You goof up engineering on-air and you'd get docked days/pay for
it. INANE for real world (actually INCREASED the probability of screw-ups)
but in a SCHOOL situation... Great.


> Trust me ... in the courses
> I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
> structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
> enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it apparent
> to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
> importatnt looking meters to show them the levels. I came from the
> radio business where the VU meters were in the most important position
> on most consoles. Just a hard habit to break I guess.

And NOT a bad one. Do you spend at least a week doing hands-on demos with
normal and tough dynamic material with everybody watchinmg simultaneously a
Dorroughs, a real VU and a truly fast digital peak meter? It's a hell of a
great workshop and if you include Bob Katz' treatise on levels, K-metering
and average-matched-monitoring levels throughout the course, you might crank
out some pretty spot-on grads!
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:43:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/15/05 10:25 PM, in article BEAD7CEC.7E97%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com,
"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:

> Are you folks REALLY trying to hang real VU meters right across the line???
> Like since 1980? Like BUFFER AMP dude, with like a calibration trim...


Hey! can this do anythign for ya??

http://sound.westhost.com/project55.htm
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 11:28:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <4286F304.A673B87E@hotmail.com> rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com writes:

> I've noticed that in every US film or TV series, the VUs are 'pegging' whenever
> they're in shot.

Well, movies are better than ever. <g>

I happen to like VU meters a lot, but then I grew up with them and
learned how to use them in conjunction with digital peak meters. The
meters on a Mackie mixer have neither true VU response (to say nothing
of the scale) nor are they all that effective in displaying absolute
peak level.

None the less, it's better than no metering at all because the meter,
along with the physical position of the controls, gives you an
indication of the gain structure of the mixer, and to a certain
extent, of the system.

Someone on the Ampex mailing list was researching "eye candy" VU-like
meters for a client's project and didn't turn up very much. Real VU
meters aren't cheap. The students should learn about what they're
doing, and use the tools they have available.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 11:28:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1116170819.272453.93800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> bbrophy@earthlink.net writes:

> The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
> clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
> set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
> line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
> too.

You need to teach them two things:

1. Set the level right (which is not to say 1 dB short of clipping and
leave the setting alone unless it really needs changing.

2. Set the monitor volume to a comfortable level that's loud enough to
hear and pay attention to what's going on. If there's a significant
volume change, they'll hear it and can react accordingly to bring
the level back to where it should be. No need to look at the meter
when you can hear what's happening when you move a knob.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 1:37:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <znr1116240641k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
>Someone on the Ampex mailing list was researching "eye candy" VU-like
>meters for a client's project and didn't turn up very much. Real VU
>meters aren't cheap. The students should learn about what they're
>doing, and use the tools they have available.

WAIT! I got it!

Markertek sells a thing by one of the Japanese video gadget companies that
takes in two audio line and displays meters on an NTSC video output that
you can plug into a monitor (and you can overlay with the program video
as well). It's a couple hundred bucks, and it will let you make a meter
as large as the largest monitor in the control room.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 2:00:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

How about just using your ears????
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 4:25:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
> "TimPerry" <timperry@noaspamadelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > [...] even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously
lackadaisical
> > in watching their levels.
>
>
>
> Bullshit. Look at my sig.
>
> --
> "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
> - Lorin David Schultz
> in the control room
> making even bad news sound good
>
> (Remove spamblock to reply)


It sure happens a lot at my news network: Even seasoned audio ops
driving hard into the red, "leave it to the compressor". I shoot for 0,
and they think I'm anal.

But even worse, at my college job, they do shows with the
waveform/vectorscope turned OFF!!! They set the irises by EYE.
Yecccchhhh.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:35:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<blackburst@aol.com> wrote ...
> It sure happens a lot at my news network: Even seasoned audio ops
> driving hard into the red, "leave it to the compressor". I shoot for 0,
> and they think I'm anal.
>
> But even worse, at my college job, they do shows with the
> waveform/vectorscope turned OFF!!! They set the irises by EYE.
> Yecccchhhh.

Welcome to the MTV age of "eyeball enginering".
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 9:54:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley <richard.7.crowley@intel.com> wrote:
><blackburst@aol.com> wrote ...
>> It sure happens a lot at my news network: Even seasoned audio ops
>> driving hard into the red, "leave it to the compressor". I shoot for 0,
>> and they think I'm anal.
>>
>> But even worse, at my college job, they do shows with the
>> waveform/vectorscope turned OFF!!! They set the irises by EYE.
>> Yecccchhhh.
>
>Welcome to the MTV age of "eyeball enginering".

As folks move into DTV, they are going to be discovering why this is
such a bad thing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 2:28:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/16/05 2:33 AM, in article 3eqt5aF4f3o0U1@individual.net, "Kurt
Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> wrote:

> SSJVCmag wrote:
>> On 5/15/05 12:46 AM, in article 4286D415.FC874057@hotmail.com, "Pooh Bear"
>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Since VU meters are useless ( too slow responding ) for almost any
>>> practical use - what would that achieve ?
>>
>>
>> Oy... HUGELY useful... But that'll be another pointless thread..
>>
>>
>>
>>> Small led ladders are the norm now.
>>
>>
>> With what response time? LED ladders with Somebody's Official Idea Of
>> Average or Something is a whole lot worse than real VU meters...
>> Real Peak Reading Leds SCARE people...
>
>
> The LED meters on the Sound Devices mixers are pretty damn useful in
> their combined peak/VU mode.

Didn¹t mean they weren;t USEFUL, just that picking an LED display du-jour
WITHOUT KNOWING HOW IT WAS DESIGNED TO TELL YOU is hardly a step up from a
VU meter.
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 2:29:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/16/05 9:37 AM, in article d6a7n5$4k$1@panix2.panix.com, "Scott Dorsey"
<kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> In article <znr1116240641k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>>
>> Someone on the Ampex mailing list was researching "eye candy" VU-like
>> meters for a client's project and didn't turn up very much. Real VU
>> meters aren't cheap. The students should learn about what they're
>> doing, and use the tools they have available.
>
> WAIT! I got it!
>
> Markertek sells a thing by one of the Japanese video gadget companies that
> takes in two audio line and displays meters on an NTSC video output that
> you can plug into a monitor (and you can overlay with the program video
> as well). It's a couple hundred bucks, and it will let you make a meter
> as large as the largest monitor in the control room.
> --scott

I rememebr these... Some could be set up to do stems too...?
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 10:50:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:
> <blackburst@aol.com> wrote ...
> > It sure happens a lot at my news network: Even seasoned audio ops
> > driving hard into the red, "leave it to the compressor". I shoot
for 0,
> > and they think I'm anal.
> >
> > But even worse, at my college job, they do shows with the
> > waveform/vectorscope turned OFF!!! They set the irises by EYE.
> > Yecccchhhh.
>
> Welcome to the MTV age of "eyeball enginering".

I admit that, with well-calibrated monitors, one can set reasonable
video levels by eye, I just cringe that the college staff has camera
and tape/server levels that are just screaming. The waveform monitor
will never lie to you.
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 10:58:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
> <blackburst@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > It sure happens a lot at my news network: Even seasoned audio ops
> > driving hard into the red, "leave it to the compressor".
>
>
>
> Don't knock it completely. Some voices actually sound better that
way.
> One of the anchors on our 6 o'clock show sounds best when his mic is
> slamming the compressor. Makes it bigger and fatter and fuller
without
> getting baddersoundingerer. Go figure.

I know what you mean. I guess it depends on how much headroom you have
(we use a Wheatstone D-9). But one you get into slamming into the red,
hitting the compressor hard, it gets hard to maintain consistent VISUAL
levels on the Dorroughs. It has to be by ear. And of course, the
packages are all cut a wildly differing levels... And those sports guys
yell, go soft, yell, go soft. And when they VO highlights, they look
down at their scripts or monitors and eat the mics!

Have you ever considered monitoring the actual air signal, instead of
the air feed (air tab), to hear it the way it sounds at home?
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 12:39:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<blackburst@aol.com> wrote:

>
> It sure happens a lot at my news network: Even seasoned audio ops
> driving hard into the red, "leave it to the compressor".



Don't knock it completely. Some voices actually sound better that way.
One of the anchors on our 6 o'clock show sounds best when his mic is
slamming the compressor. Makes it bigger and fatter and fuller without
getting baddersoundingerer. Go figure.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 1:33:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 15 May 2005 17:06:43 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

----------------------8<----------------------
>Get large VU meters. Put them on the output of the console. Make
>sure they are bridged with a 600 ohm load.
>
>But don't believe them... the Mackie doesn't like driving normal levels
>and you really want something that reads 20 dB higher than reality.
>
>I suppose a Dorrough is out of the question? The problem is that most
>gear doesn't have real VU meters any more, so there's nothing to salvage
>any longer unless you go _way_ back. And a Simpson VU meter movement
>is something like $180 now.
>--scott

-- Are those lightbeam meters still available? I mean some Siemens
consoles did have these in the late sixties. They were great.

The largest one I know of is in as local hydroelectric power plant
control room and mounted overhead. As I recall it must be over a meter
and half long. The next time I will pay a visit to them, I'll make a
photo of it.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 1:46:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Announcer <bbrophy@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
> >see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
> >console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
> >console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
> >to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
> >What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?
>
> Get large VU meters. Put them on the output of the console. Make
> sure they are bridged with a 600 ohm load.

Why should they be bridged with a 600 ohm load ?????? They are *voltmeters*
!

Graham
!