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PA speaker question

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Anonymous
May 18, 2005 12:43:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I know that this isn't the live sound newsgroup, but a number of y'all hang
out in both places. So here's my scenario and question: I'm in the process
of building a smallish PA (Speaker on a stick with subs) using Turbosound
TXD components, and can't really figure out the advantages of one of their
speakers over another. In this line, Turbo has a 1x12" cab and a 1x15" cab
(both with horns), and both 1x18" and 2x15" subs. As close as I can tell,
the 18" sub goes to 36Hz rather than 40 Hz. But that doesn't seem to be all
that big a deal - especially with the 2x15" sub is substantially larger. And
while the 1x15" hi/mid cab would have a bit more low end extension than the
1x12" cab, if I'm using a sub, it doesn't seem that it would be that big a
difference.

So my question is this: what advantages are there to using a 1x18" sub
rather than a 2X15" sub? and why should I choose either the 1x12" full range
speaker over the 1x15" full range speaker?

Info on the Turbosound TXD line is available at
http://www.turbosound.com/showroom/ and at
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=102/g=live/searc...

If it matters, I'll be pushing these with QSC PLX 2402's.

Thanks for any insights that y'all might have.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

More about : speaker question

Anonymous
May 18, 2005 12:43:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I know that this isn't the live sound newsgroup, but a number of y'all hang
>out in both places. So here's my scenario and question: I'm in the process
>of building a smallish PA (Speaker on a stick with subs) using Turbosound
>TXD components, and can't really figure out the advantages of one of their
>speakers over another. In this line, Turbo has a 1x12" cab and a 1x15" cab
>(both with horns), and both 1x18" and 2x15" subs. As close as I can tell,
>the 18" sub goes to 36Hz rather than 40 Hz. But that doesn't seem to be all
>that big a deal - especially with the 2x15" sub is substantially larger.

What does that mean "goes to?" Is that a -3dB point, and what happens
below that point?

The real answer is probably how loud it'll play at 100 Hz or so. The
larger speaker area can probably move more air.

By the way, I bet a 1x12" cabinet will have less midrange distortion than
a 1x15" cabinet, all other things being equal. I bet it's less popular,
though.

>And
>while the 1x15" hi/mid cab would have a bit more low end extension than the
>1x12" cab, if I'm using a sub, it doesn't seem that it would be that big a
>difference.

It's probably not a good difference at all, but people have this obsession
about 15" mains. And it's true you can probably set the crossover point
a good bit lower with the 15".

>So my question is this: what advantages are there to using a 1x18" sub
>rather than a 2X15" sub? and why should I choose either the 1x12" full range
>speaker over the 1x15" full range speaker?

You should choose the mains that have the best sounding vocals, and I bet
a nickel that will be the 1x12". You should then pick the sub that mates
up best with it (which could be either one, I haven't seen the plots).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 12:43:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I know that this isn't the live sound newsgroup, but a number of y'all hang
>> out in both places. So here's my scenario and question: I'm in the process
>> of building a smallish PA (Speaker on a stick with subs) using Turbosound
>> TXD components, and can't really figure out the advantages of one of their
>> speakers over another. In this line, Turbo has a 1x12" cab and a 1x15" cab
>> (both with horns), and both 1x18" and 2x15" subs. As close as I can tell,
>> the 18" sub goes to 36Hz rather than 40 Hz. But that doesn't seem to be all
>> that big a deal - especially with the 2x15" sub is substantially larger.
>
>
> What does that mean "goes to?" Is that a -3dB point, and what happens
> below that point?
>
> The real answer is probably how loud it'll play at 100 Hz or so. The
> larger speaker area can probably move more air.
>
> By the way, I bet a 1x12" cabinet will have less midrange distortion than
> a 1x15" cabinet, all other things being equal.

And hugely important IME.




How soon do you need this system? You owe it to yourself to audition
the new EAW NT series. I'm buying a set.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 1:28:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

First, you'll want to check a few parameters out. What is the -3db
frequency of the 1x12 vs. the 1x15 top boxes? If using a sub, you'll want to
be sure the 12" can get down to the desirable crossover frequency range of
80-100hz. Typically a 15" in a top box will get down that low, making the
crossover to the sub less of an issue. Considering you want to use them on
sticks, the 12" version may be the way to go either way, if lifting the
cabinet up onto a stand is an issue.
Next, you'll probably need one sub per top box regardless. The difference
between the 2-15 and 1-18 sub is a fifth down for the 18. In this region
that can mean a definite difference in perception of how loud the whole
system is. It's something that needs to be listened to first hand and judge
for yourself. There are possible differences in box design between the two
models that can make a sonic difference, so the best thing to do always is
audition the products together at the same time(not all playing at once,
just being able to switch back and forth).

Just a start,

John
May 18, 2005 4:56:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> wrote
> First, you'll want to check a few parameters out. What is the -3db
> frequency of the 1x12 vs. the 1x15 top boxes? If using a sub, you'll want
> to be sure the 12" can get down to the desirable crossover frequency range
> of 80-100hz. Typically a 15" in a top box will get down that low, making
> the crossover to the sub less of an issue. Considering you want to use
> them on sticks, the 12" version may be the way to go either way, if
> lifting the cabinet up onto a stand is an issue.

Why couldn't you cross over a little higher with a 12?

Julian
May 18, 2005 4:57:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote

> You should choose the mains that have the best sounding vocals, and I bet
> a nickel that will be the 1x12".

Yes
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 8:32:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave Martin wrote:
> I know that this isn't the live sound newsgroup, but a number of
y'all hang
> out in both places. So here's my scenario and question: I'm in the
process
> of building a smallish PA (Speaker on a stick with subs) using
Turbosound
> TXD components, and can't really figure out the advantages of one of
their
> speakers over another. In this line, Turbo has a 1x12" cab and a
1x15" cab
> (both with horns), and both 1x18" and 2x15" subs. As close as I can
tell,

I have always preferred the sound of 12's over
15's for vocal. The 15 is just too much of a
compromise for adequate low end on small systems.
The 12 has better dispersion at mid freqs.
In the presence of subs the 12 will do great.

> the 18" sub goes to 36Hz rather than 40 Hz. But that doesn't seem to
be all
> that big a deal - especially with the 2x15" sub is substantially
larger. And
> while the 1x15" hi/mid cab would have a bit more low end extension
than the

40 Hz is decent for most live stuff.

> 1x12" cab, if I'm using a sub, it doesn't seem that it would be that
big a
> difference.

Correct.

> So my question is this: what advantages are there to using a 1x18"
sub

How's your back ?

> rather than a 2X15" sub? and why should I choose either the 1x12"
full range
> speaker over the 1x15" full range speaker?

3 15's per side would play the loudest (most effecient,
highest power cap.) Great for a hard rock band.
The 12-18 combo might sound the most 'hi-fi'.

> Info on the Turbosound TXD line is available at
> http://www.turbosound.com/showroom/ and at
>
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=102/g=live/searc...
>
> If it matters, I'll be pushing these with QSC PLX 2402's.
>
> Thanks for any insights that y'all might have.

I like the idea of the 2x15 subs and the 12" mids
as the best compromise, except for the weight
consideration of the subs, of course.

> Dave Martin
> Java Jive Studio
> Nashville, TN
> www.javajivestudio.com

good luck
rd
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 10:27:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'd be more concerned on where the crossover point is on the 12/15 to the
horn, because a lot of vocal and piano along with other instruments goes
through the crossover that some systems just don't cut it for me. I ended
up with the Mackie 1530s, not because they can compete with the Turbosounds,
but because the crossovers are right in it's 3-way configuration.
Particularly for female vocal jazz and jazz piano. They worked great in a
room at Walter Reed with some of the Hula Monsters, too (mandolin, violin,
pedal steel, acoustic guitar and two lead guitars plus vocals, bass and
drums all through the Mackies for over 1000 people).

So look at what instruments you expect to use with the system and then look
at what crossover point it uses. A 15 with a crossover of 1.5 to 1.8 kHz is
going to be noticeable, or at least to me. And the 15 doesn't do 2kHz well,
nor does a 1" throat horn do 2 kHz particularly well.

I'd look at the THL-2 for smaller (under 500) venues and the THL-4 for
larger venues.

That is, if you want to stay within Turbosound. You might want to give
Servodrive speakers a look, although you might be stepping into another
price range.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Dave Martin" <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:LHsie.3655$uR4.753@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I know that this isn't the live sound newsgroup, but a number of y'all
hang
> out in both places. So here's my scenario and question: I'm in the process
> of building a smallish PA (Speaker on a stick with subs) using Turbosound
> TXD components, and can't really figure out the advantages of one of their
> speakers over another. In this line, Turbo has a 1x12" cab and a 1x15" cab
> (both with horns), and both 1x18" and 2x15" subs. As close as I can tell,
> the 18" sub goes to 36Hz rather than 40 Hz. But that doesn't seem to be
all
> that big a deal - especially with the 2x15" sub is substantially larger.
And
> while the 1x15" hi/mid cab would have a bit more low end extension than
the
> 1x12" cab, if I'm using a sub, it doesn't seem that it would be that big a
> difference.
>
> So my question is this: what advantages are there to using a 1x18" sub
> rather than a 2X15" sub? and why should I choose either the 1x12" full
range
> speaker over the 1x15" full range speaker?
>
> Info on the Turbosound TXD line is available at
> http://www.turbosound.com/showroom/ and at
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=102/g=live/searc...
>
> If it matters, I'll be pushing these with QSC PLX 2402's.
>
> Thanks for any insights that y'all might have.
>
> --
> Dave Martin
> Java Jive Studio
> Nashville, TN
> www.javajivestudio.com
>
>
>
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 11:43:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <LHsie.3655$uR4.753@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> dmainc@earthlink.net writes:

> So my question is this: what advantages are there to using a 1x18" sub
> rather than a 2X15" sub? and why should I choose either the 1x12" full range
> speaker over the 1x15" full range speaker?

Easier to put in your truck, perhaps?

Like any of this stuff, it depends on what you're going to be running
thought it most of the time and what you might run through it some of
the time. Bigger is always better, but harder to handle. Unless you're
using drums in a fair-to-middlin' sized room, you may not even need
subwoofers.

Save your money and your back whenever possible.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 8:27:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Why couldn't you cross over a little higher with a 12?

Frequencies above the 80-100hz range start getting directional, meaning a
listener can tell where the source is specifically. If you're top boxes are
on the ends of stands, or just stacked anywhere other than right on top of
the subs, the discrepency can affect overall sound quality. That said, it
is possible to do what you ask, as long as you keep the cabinets right next
to each other. Either way, going above 150hz with the crossover point would
not be recommended by most folks here.

Best regards,

John Halliburton
May 18, 2005 8:27:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:q1Kie.698$Wg3.61@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
> Either way, going above 150hz with the crossover point would not be
> recommended by most folks here.

I normally wouldn't crossover higher than 150 either, but who cares if you
get a little directionality crossing over at 160 or 180 or even 200 for
example? It can't be much directional at that frequency? It hardly
justifies the need for 15's if the 12's sound better in the vocal range as
Arny mentioned.

Julian
May 18, 2005 8:27:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Julian" <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote

> I normally wouldn't crossover higher than 150 either, but who cares if you
> get a little directionality crossing over at 160 or 180 or even 200 for
> example? It can't be much directional at that frequency? It hardly
> justifies the need for 15's if the 12's sound better in the vocal range as
> Arny mentioned.

OOPps. I meant as Scott mentioned.
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 8:30:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Unless you're
> using drums in a fair-to-middlin' sized room, you may not even need
> subwoofers.

Don't tell the bass players and keyboard/synth players that. ;>)

John
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:39:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:J_adncpaRe2ahRbfRVn-hA@rcn.net...

> That is, if you want to stay within Turbosound. You might want to give
> Servodrive speakers a look, although you might be stepping into another
> price range.
>
The Servodrive line certainly would be jumping into another price range...
And I really don't want to own a sound company, just have a PA that I can
use on my own live gigs or rent to other bands doing private
parties/receptions/corporate events when I'm not using it.

--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:39:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"RD Jones" <annonn@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1116415966.827912.130480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> I have always preferred the sound of 12's over
> 15's for vocal. The 15 is just too much of a
> compromise for adequate low end on small systems.
> The 12 has better dispersion at mid freqs.
> In the presence of subs the 12 will do great.

> I like the idea of the 2x15 subs and the 12" mids
> as the best compromise, except for the weight
> consideration of the subs, of course.
>
Well, I'm pretty sold on the 12" mid idea - it's mostly a matter of trying
both the 2x15" cabs and the 1x18" cab and seeing which works best for me.

--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:39:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
>news:J_adncpaRe2ahRbfRVn-hA@rcn.net...
>
>> That is, if you want to stay within Turbosound. You might want to give
>> Servodrive speakers a look, although you might be stepping into another
>> price range.
>>
>The Servodrive line certainly would be jumping into another price range...
>And I really don't want to own a sound company, just have a PA that I can
>use on my own live gigs or rent to other bands doing private
>parties/receptions/corporate events when I'm not using it.

How about the 12" Radian coaxial?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:39:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:i4Kie.699$oh3.523@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Unless you're
> > using drums in a fair-to-middlin' sized room, you may not even need
> > subwoofers.
>
> Don't tell the bass players and keyboard/synth players that. ;>)
>

It's OK - I AM the bass player...

--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:39:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1116373682k@trad...
>
> Save your money and your back whenever possible.
>
Those are wise words. My back is kinda important - to me, at least.


--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:39:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave Martin wrote:
> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:znr1116373682k@trad...
>
>> Save your money and your back whenever possible.
>
>
> Those are wise words. My back is kinda important - to me, at least.


The 12" EAW NT box weighs 51 lbs (and it's a 1500W active system.)
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:39:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Kurt Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> wrote in message
news:3evaidF56j9eU3@individual.net...
> >
> > The real answer is probably how loud it'll play at 100 Hz or so. The
> > larger speaker area can probably move more air.
> >
> > By the way, I bet a 1x12" cabinet will have less midrange distortion
than
> > a 1x15" cabinet, all other things being equal.
>
> And hugely important IME.
>
I agree - I've purchased 4 of the 1x12 Turbosound monitors and find them to
be extremely useable. I expect to go with the 1x12 cabs unless they really
sound a lot worse than the monitors. Part of that is because they're a heck
of a lot easier to put on a pole than a 1x15 cabinet.
>
> How soon do you need this system? You owe it to yourself to audition
> the new EAW NT series. I'm buying a set.
>
Well, at this time, I'm not all that excited about powered speakers. But I
could change my mind at some point... I'll try to check out the EAW's.

Thanks!



--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:50:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Kurt Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> wrote in message
news:3evaidF56j9eU3@individual.net...

> How soon do you need this system? You owe it to yourself to audition
> the new EAW NT series. I'm buying a set.
>
Kurt, as far as I can tell from the EAW website, the NT line has been
announced but isn't actually in production. Where did you buy your from?

--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 4:50:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave Martin wrote:
> "Kurt Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> wrote in message
> news:3evaidF56j9eU3@individual.net...
>
>
>> How soon do you need this system? You owe it to yourself to audition
>> the new EAW NT series. I'm buying a set.
>
>
> Kurt, as far as I can tell from the EAW website, the NT line has been
> announced but isn't actually in production. Where did you buy your from?

They're shipping in July, hence my "how soon" question. I may be
getting a pair of the eval systems that are due back late June,
depending on whether there are changes to the production design or not.
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 7:54:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> OOPps. I meant as Scott mentioned.

It depends. For some, it may be an issue, there are many things that have
to be juggled and compromised on. The best thing to do is listen. My
preference is to cross over to subs at 80-100hz, and have top boxes that can
hit 80hz solidly, ie., -3db point=80hz minimum. I've designed and built
2-12 x 1 cabinets and used them for years that did just that, plus had the
better midrange response pointed out as desirable by Scott.

I currently use SPL Trik Traps on top of Servodrive Contrabass subwoofers.
The Triks use four 8" drivers in the low section, and are a patented three
way design, so the 2-12x1 cabinets are in retirement at the moment.

Best regards,

John
May 19, 2005 7:54:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> wrote

> It depends. For some, it may be an issue, there are many things that have
> to be juggled and compromised on. The best thing to do is listen. My
> preference is to cross over to subs at 80-100hz, and have top boxes that
> can hit 80hz solidly, ie., -3db point=80hz minimum. I've designed and
> built 2-12 x 1 cabinets and used them for years that did just that, plus
> had the better midrange response pointed out as desirable by Scott.

I think a lot if the issue had to do where the 12's or 15's are crossed over
and how they sound in that range.

Julian
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 7:57:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> The Servodrive line certainly would be jumping into another price range...
> And I really don't want to own a sound company, just have a PA that I can
> use on my own live gigs or rent to other bands doing private
> parties/receptions/corporate events when I'm not using it.

Then check out the Yorkville U15. They license the technology, and have
designed a great sounding product at a price point that's slightly above the
Turbo gear you've mentioned. The best sounding speaker under $1k I've
heard.

Best regards,

John
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 8:01:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"
> It's OK - I AM the bass player...

Most sound guys are. ;>) I just did a gig that featured the (current)
principle bass player for the Chicago Sinfonieta, and he was very happy to
be only ten feet from one of my Contrabass subwoofers during the gig. Great
sounding upright.

John
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 5:25:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I think a lot if the issue had to do where the 12's or 15's are crossed
> over
> and how they sound in that range.

That was part of my explanation. Twelves can be used, but only if you've
got the desired response, fifteens are typically easier to find for the
situation I describe, but midrange response may be the trade-off.

John
!