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Use PA or Backline for electric guitars??

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May 23, 2005 11:34:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi,
Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out of
the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing the
guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves over
the volume of the drum kit.

I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be letting
the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the PA
(like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix because
of lack of control over the volume and EQ?

When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they ALWAYS
seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
keeping the guitar amp volume down.

My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,
and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should the
PA be used instead of the backline?

Cheers,

Mark.
--
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:34:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mark wrote:
> Hi,
> Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out
of
> the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing
the
> guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves
over
> the volume of the drum kit.

IMO, this is the best way to go. Especially if the musicians are
comfortable with it. More and more, this is what most acts are doing,
unless they have a particular need to get a "heavy guitar" sound on the
stage.
>
> I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be
letting
> the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the
PA
> (like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume

> though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix
because
> of lack of control over the volume and EQ?

I always found that the more people I asked, the more different
opinions I got and the more difficult the decision became... First,
trust your gut and your experience. Is what you are doing working?
There are people on this NG with lots of experience. Even so, they have
their own ideas about how to do things and these ideas may be quite
different than yours.
>
> When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they
ALWAYS
> seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
> keeping the guitar amp volume down.

Bravo! You are to be congratulated.
>
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,

> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should
the
> PA be used instead of the backline?
>
Whatever works for you. Seriously!

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com
May 23, 2005 11:34:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mic the guitar amp(s), but keep everyone's stage volumes at reasonable
levels. This works in just about any setting. Letting a guitarist fill
the room with sound almost always ends up with excessive guitar volume.

Your last question depends on room size and attendance. In a
coffeehouse-type gig, I like it when the only PA-amplified things are
vocals and acoustic guitar. The occasional inclusion of a kick drum
might be nice too.

Most of the gigs I play are pop/rock shows in standard bars. There is
always a mic on my amp at those.

-dave
www.themoodrings.com
Related resources
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:34:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

--

"Mark" <marks@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
news:LPidnc2tmsaBvw_fRVnyiA@pipex.net...
> Hi,
> Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out of
> the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing the
> guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves over
> the volume of the drum kit.
>
> I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be letting
> the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the PA
> (like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
> though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix because
> of lack of control over the volume and EQ?
>
> When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they ALWAYS
> seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
> keeping the guitar amp volume down.
>
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,

In a nutshell....guitarists like their amps turned up(and mic'd) If they say
otherwise they're not really guitar players or traders. <g>

loud guitar at:
http://tinyurl.com/62z86
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:34:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mark wrote:

> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,

> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should
the
> PA be used instead of the backline?

Mark, IMHO&E the only real "crossover point", given the usual range of
venue sizes & discounting the tiny & the colloseums, is: "How good &
pro is the FOH?".

I do not think it will be much longer before backline, and even the
whole 60+ year view we have had of what a good guitar amp is, will be
in the historical trashcan. I believe that as soon as the number of
baby-boomers in audiences who actually affect sales dwindles off, and
the visual need for such stuff is greatly reduced, we'll see it. YMMV
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:34:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From an engineers perspective I like to mic everything just in case.
Regardless of the venue I'd rather have it in the desk but not need it
in the mix than try to mic it up in the middle of the second song. I
agree with the above mentioned philosophy of putting a little "sparkle"
on drums and amps while keeping the console levels just on the brink of
transparent.
Loud stage volume can be the f.o.h. engineers biggest problem, and
without more volume it is nearly impossible to overcome. If the band
is currently hearing what they need and the guitarists are getting the
tone they want at comfortable volumes "don't fix what ain't broke".
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 12:15:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 23 May 2005 19:34:25 +0100, Mark wrote:

> Hi,
> Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out of the
> PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing the
> guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves over the
> volume of the drum kit.
>
> I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be letting
> the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the PA
> (like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
> though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix because of
> lack of control over the volume and EQ?
>
> When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they ALWAYS
> seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
> keeping the guitar amp volume down.
>
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods, and
> at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should the PA be
> used instead of the backline?

In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives the FOH guy
total control. Small clubs do not exist in a perfect world.

The problem starts with drums, because they don't have volume controls
(except the drummer's technique). At whatever level the drummer plays,
the other players will need a certain volume level to hear themselves. Add
it all together and that is your MINIMUM stage volume (horrendous, or not).

With everything in the PA, the FOH guy STILL can't turn ANY instrument
lower than the volume coming off the stage. Moreover, if the PA volume is
not significantly louder than the volume coming from the stage, you can
run into time delay & phase issues. In a small space, the volume quickly
gets into the uncomfortable/dangerous/neighbors calling the cops range.

There's no hard & fast rule as to when it's a good idea to put more
instruments into the PA. It's whenever an instrument can't be heard
because it's not loud enough (NOT because something else is too loud).
Kick drum will disappear in a smaller room than snare, etc.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 12:15:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent 86 <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote:
>
>In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives the FOH guy
>total control. Small clubs do not exist in a perfect world.

No, no, quite the opposite! In a perfect world, all the instruments
are balanced together and no PA is required at all!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 12:39:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mark wrote:

> My question is, what do people generally think about the two
> methods,

Karl Winkler has addressed most points very well, but perhaps not
focused on resultant SPL.

> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size
> should the PA be used instead of the backline?

I think the guideline must be whether the drums are through the PA. If
so, then the PA functionally becomes "the experienced sound source" and
not just vox and piano reinforcement. For this - the PA being the
experienced sound source - to apply in real life the PA SPL in the
"dance pit" must exceed the stage SPL by 10 dB, otherwise the sound is
un-mixable and totally messy.

This statement is based on actual measurements in the "Rhythm Tent" at
Roskilde in 1978 made using an IVIE octave band analyser, the
measurement may not be possible in a rigid wall venue, but I am
convinced that the basic principle applies. Stage SPL peaked at 116 dB C
on "fast", the PA was well able to compete, so the sound mix worked, but
it was not nice to measure "dance pit" SPL peak at a very unsafe 126 dB
SPL C "fast".

There was no alternative because the stage SPL was as loud as it was,
the mixer desk operator did not set the level, the guitars on stage did
and the rest just had to be mixed to fit.


> Mark


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 12:46:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
> IMO, this is the best way to go. Especially if the musicians are
> comfortable with it. More and more, this is what most acts are doing,
> unless they have a particular need to get a "heavy guitar" sound on the
> stage.

I'm going to sound heretic here, and even agree with KA on something.

Yes you can get a good club sound this way if you have a set of good musos,
with good sense of ensemble playing. Hell, us older guys did it for most
of our career. Personally, I enjoy a band better that way, there is a
sense of space as well as intimicy that is often lost with eveything miked.
This is often at the expence of traditional 'good sound,' as well as
precluding a processed sound (although myself as well as Phildo have in the
past posted a couple of tips on getting that processed sound at minimal
volume (things like put just effect and maybe just a little extreme low end
and some high end sizzle on the drums, just effects and a little high on
sax, etc.

Now comes the heretic part. If you are doing just vocal, you will not
benefit nearly as much with a sound man. (I'm going to duck now.) Getting
just a good vocal sound is nowhere near the issue as getting the ensemble
sound, balance, blend, etc. If (and that is a BIG if,) you can get a good
sound with backline, the ONLY thing left after getting a good vocal sound
is balancing it with the music.

Musos capaple of getting themselves balances with backline should be able
to handle that, with judicious walking the room etc.

Now, us sound guys are in luck. Musos that can get an acceptable sound this
way do exist (saw some yesterday, 4 piece jazz, sax, piano, bass drums with
3 of the four good swing vocalists,) sounded stunning in a venue I work
occasionally. They are the exception, however, so we will still be able to
get experience with lots and lots and lots...

When the venues get bigger, all bets are off. I'd sure like to see somebody
do 10,000 seats... Even 500 seats in most venues would be not good
(although I did work a 500+ seater in the 70s in Jaxsonville that was
really nice sounding room with a six piece (no soundman back in the day) I
had the luxury of walking the room with this band on an occasional song I
wasn't required in, and man. If all the rooms sounded like that...
May 24, 2005 1:57:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mark" <marks@nospamhere.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:LPidnc2tmsaBvw_fRVnyiA@pipex.net...
> Hi,
> Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out of
> the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing the
> guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves over
> the volume of the drum kit.

This is a good idea.. Especially if the guitarplayer is more than usually
deaf..

> I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be letting
> the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the PA
> (like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
> though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix because
> of lack of control over the volume and EQ?

You do lose some control of the volume and EQ, but the main advantage is
that you take a lot of strain out of the PA.. The stage volume depends a LOT
on the guitarplayer and his backline..

> When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they ALWAYS
> seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
> keeping the guitar amp volume down.

I did that this friday in a tent that holds about 300 people... Guitarist(s)
had a Fender tube amp of sorts ( dual 12" ) and a Marshall JCM 900 with a
4*12 cab.... I ended up muting them in the FOH mix and mixed accordingly..

As a basic guideline you should only help what needs to be helped.. IOW: If
the guitarist has no problems reaching the desired SPL without making the
stage volume unbearable for the others on stage you should let him..

> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,
> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should the
> PA be used instead of the backline?

It depends on the band, the venue and how much the promoter is paying :-)

/peter
May 24, 2005 2:35:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks for your responses guys.

Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with
a hint of snare reverb..

If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen
people, but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.

How about SX300? LA212? (I prefer 12" to 15" usually because I tend to
associate 15's with having honky sounding vocals, though maybe thats
just the JBL SF15's I currently have) ..

Cheers.

Mark.
--
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 4:12:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"psalter" <psalter@opry.com> wrote in message
news:1116883218.913344.297760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >From an engineers perspective I like to mic everything just in case.
> Regardless of the venue I'd rather have it in the desk but not need it
> in the mix than try to mic it up in the middle of the second song. I
> agree with the above mentioned philosophy of putting a little "sparkle"
> on drums and amps while keeping the console levels just on the brink of
> transparent.
> Loud stage volume can be the f.o.h. engineers biggest problem, and
> without more volume it is nearly impossible to overcome. If the band
> is currently hearing what they need and the guitarists are getting the
> tone they want at comfortable volumes "don't fix what ain't broke".


Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage (say
an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the PA
with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
volume ...

Cheers,
Steve W
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 4:12:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve White <steve@sjNOSPAMTAVERYMUCHwhite.plus.com> wrote:
>
>Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage (say
>an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the PA
>with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
>volume ...

Sadly this doesn't work because the main PA speakers are too far away from
the sound source. If it did work, you'd see every drum kit in the country
miked....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 4:24:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve White wrote:

> "psalter" <psalter@opry.com> wrote in message
> news:1116883218.913344.297760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > >From an engineers perspective I like to mic everything just in case.
> > Regardless of the venue I'd rather have it in the desk but not need it
> > in the mix than try to mic it up in the middle of the second song. I
> > agree with the above mentioned philosophy of putting a little "sparkle"
> > on drums and amps while keeping the console levels just on the brink of
> > transparent.
> > Loud stage volume can be the f.o.h. engineers biggest problem, and
> > without more volume it is nearly impossible to overcome. If the band
> > is currently hearing what they need and the guitarists are getting the
> > tone they want at comfortable volumes "don't fix what ain't broke".
>
> Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage (say
> an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the PA
> with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
> volume ...

If only !

The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
technically do-able though.

I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own level
in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
fast. ;-)

I suppose that was good enough reason to have him miked or DI'd.

Graham
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 4:34:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mark wrote:

> Thanks for your responses guys.
>
> Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
> and choose to put the guitars through the PA.

But why ?

If the musicians are disciplined enough to be able to turn down, they can
also get a good backline balance and will probably prefer to play that way.

Putting guitars ( or any stage instrument ) through the PA results in 3
sound sources ( instrument - LH stack and RH stack ) with various time
delays due to acoustic path length. That's where the sound easily gets
'muddy'.

Where it *has* to be amplified this isn't an issue really.

> Would a pair of EV S200
> tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with
> a hint of snare reverb..
>
> If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen
> people, but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.

Try it and see ?

> How about SX300? LA212? (I prefer 12" to 15" usually because I tend to
> associate 15's with having honky sounding vocals, though maybe thats
> just the JBL SF15's I currently have) ..

You're correct to associate 15" drivers with poor vocal performance. It's a
technical thing ( science - physics and all that ). 12" is much better. 10"
can be better still.

Graham
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 4:48:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42926615.A91406@hotmail.com...
> Steve White wrote:
> > Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
(say
> > an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the
PA
> > with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
> > volume ...
>
> If only !
>
> The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
> technically do-able though.

Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
would that type of facility not make it doable?



> I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own
level
> in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
> fast. ;-)

I can just picture the scene. :-)

You could also give him a set of dots.



> I suppose that was good enough reason to have him miked or DI'd.

In all seriousness, if you don't have him mic'd he's going to assume he
needs to fill the whole auditorium with the sound from his amp, and be more
likely to turn it up to 11. Whereas, if you've got him mic'd, and he's got
half a brain, and he's a musician first and guitarist second, he might just
realise that you will boost his level if & when required and then back off a
bit on stage.

The same goes for drummers. If the drummer doesn't have faith in the sound
engineer they are likely to play louder than they should. If they aren't
mic'd and the venue's anything other than very small then the same applies.


Cheers,
Steve W
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 5:12:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve White wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42926615.A91406@hotmail.com...
> > Steve White wrote:
> > > Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
> (say
> > > an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the
> PA
> > > with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
> > > volume ...
> >
> > If only !
> >
> > The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
> > technically do-able though.
>
> Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
> would that type of facility not make it doable?

'Fraid so. The time delay and phase is different for every point in the room.
You could doubtless get some intruiging comb filter effects though !

Graham
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 5:58:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/23/05 5:58 PM, in article d6tjmd$pel$1@panix2.panix.com, "Scott Dorsey"
<kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> Agent 86 <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote:
>>
>> In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives the FOH guy
>> total control. Small clubs do not exist in a perfect world.
>
> No, no, quite the opposite! In a perfect world, all the instruments
> are balanced together and no PA is required at all!
> --scott

Indeed... It takes serious moxie to drown out the acoustic punch of a drum
kit in order to replace it with "FOH Sound"... Once you;re there, you have
some sizable stacks up, commensurate power, and a budget for grunts.

For 150 people?
Sheeshe...

Gimme a vocal PA with only enough boom to handle the kick against the real
drum sound, guitars with Vibrolux equivalents (dual-12 closed-back max), a
real bass amp that can match that and a copmpressor on the vocal mix.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 6:01:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/23/05 7:48 PM, in article
42926b16$0$39083$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net, "Steve White"
<steve@sjNOSPAMTAVERYMUCHwhite.plus.com> wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42926615.A91406@hotmail.com...
>> Steve White wrote:
>>> Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
> (say
>>> an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the
> PA
>>> with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
>>> volume ...
>>
>> If only !
>>
>> The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
>> technically do-able though.
>
> Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
> would that type of facility not make it doable?

again: Not Possible
You shouldn;t have slept thru HS physics.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 6:42:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 24 May 2005 01:58:56 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>

>Indeed... It takes serious moxie to drown out the acoustic punch of a drum
>kit in order to replace it with "FOH Sound"... Once you;re there, you have
>some sizable stacks up, commensurate power, and a budget for grunts.

And you have to be thinking about foldback monitors for *everybody*.
It's an arms race, and only ends up being too loud.

Chris Hornbeck
"The judge is on vinyl,
decisions are final,
Nobody gets a reprieve"
-Elliott Smith, "King's Crossing"
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 2:17:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

>
> I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own level
> in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
> fast. ;-)
>
> I suppose that was good enough reason to have him miked or DI'd.
>
> Graham
>

The usual scenario is the guitarist cranks his amp up to 11, then stands
there pointing at his wedges, and making the up gesture, he cant hear
himself in his wedges cos he`s so damn loud on stage. They don`t like it
when you tell em to turn the amp down before you`ll turn the foldback
up.. "it`s my sound man.. I need it on 11 to get my sound" or
alternatively.. " it`s only on 3 mate mate honest!" yeah right..


Ron

www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 2:19:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve White wrote:

>
> Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage (say
> an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the PA
> with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
> volume ...
>
> Cheers,
> Steve W
>


Only by accident!

Ron


--

www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 6:25:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:12:43 +0100, Steve White wrote:

> Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
> (say an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through
> the PA with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing
> it's volume ...

In order to cancel, the two signals have to be EXACTLY out of phase at
EVERY frequency. Think about the in-between positions on a Strat switch.
They reverse the electrical polarity of one pickup versus another. But
the pickups aren't positioned in exactly the same place (and
consequently, aren't picking up the exactly the same signal from the
vibrating string). They cancel at some frequencies, but reinforce at
others (the signature honky "out-of-phase-strat" sound. The difference in
position between the guitar amp & the PA stack will give you the same
problem, only worse, because it will change as you walk around the room.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 9:16:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

> On Tue, 24 May 2005 01:58:56 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
>
> >Indeed... It takes serious moxie to drown out the acoustic punch of a drum
> >kit in order to replace it with "FOH Sound"... Once you;re there, you have
> >some sizable stacks up, commensurate power, and a budget for grunts.
>
> And you have to be thinking about foldback monitors for *everybody*.
> It's an arms race, and only ends up being too loud.
>
> Chris Hornbeck

And thus we end up with 20+dB ear plugs for everybody in the band
as well as the audience. I often wish they'd turn it down 20dB and let
us all take out the ear plugs.

Later...

Ron Capik <<< cynic in training >>>
--
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 12:11:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have once or twice been successful in convincing an electric guitarist
to put his amp at the front of the stage, pointing _away_ from the
audience. Then if he blasts anyone it's mostly himself and his band
members rather than the audience... and the band members can deal with
him as they see fit. <grin/>

I can understand the folks who like the sound of a particular overdriven
amp and speaker... but someone needs to help them find a way to get that
sound while working with the house engineers rather than against us.
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 7:56:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Assuming they can read, you might slip a copy of this in their guitar
case...

http://www.tonequest.com/articles/article2.htm



On 5/24/05 8:11 PM, in article u_KdncEB74q4Xg7fRVn-3Q@comcast.com, "Joe
Kesselman" <keshlam-nospam@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have once or twice been successful in convincing an electric guitarist
> to put his amp at the front of the stage, pointing _away_ from the
> audience. Then if he blasts anyone it's mostly himself and his band
> members rather than the audience... and the band members can deal with
> him as they see fit. <grin/>
>
> I can understand the folks who like the sound of a particular overdriven
> amp and speaker... but someone needs to help them find a way to get that
> sound while working with the house engineers rather than against us.
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 3:37:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mark" <marks@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
news:i4ydnW-3PfQ50Q_fRVnygw@pipex.net...
> Thanks for your responses guys.
>
> Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
> and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
> tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with a
> hint of snare reverb..

Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.

> If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen people,
> but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.

If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.

> How about SX300? LA212? (I prefer 12" to 15" usually because I tend to
> associate 15's with having honky sounding vocals, though maybe thats just
> the JBL SF15's I currently have) ..

The LA212s are a great little box IMO but I do agree 15" tend to have a big
hole in the sound. That all said, the best small speakers I ever heard were
the Opus which have a 15" and horn but sounded absolutely spectacular -
clean, detailed, no hole in the vocal range and incredibly loud.

Phildo
May 25, 2005 8:55:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phildo wrote:
>>Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
>>and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
>>tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with a
>>hint of snare reverb..
>
>
> Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.
>
>
>>If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen people,
>>but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
>
>
> If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.

Yep I'm already thinking of a pair of 18" subs. They should do the job!

Cheers,

Mark.
--
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 9:13:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

>> In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives
>> the FOH guy total control. Small clubs do not exist in a
>> perfect world.

> No, no, quite the opposite! In a perfect world, all the
> instruments are balanced together and no PA is required at all!

Hmmm, next you are going to suggest that the mics be ripped out of the
guitar and the cavities where they were mounted should be enlarged ....
in theory it is of course possible, but wouldn't it cause massive
unemployment if such methods got to be de la mode?

O;-)

> --scott


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:13:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mark wrote:

> Phildo wrote:
> >>Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
> >>and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
> >>tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with a
> >>hint of snare reverb..
> >
> >
> > Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.
> >
> >
> >>If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen people,
> >>but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
> >
> >
> > If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.
>
> Yep I'm already thinking of a pair of 18" subs. They should do the job!

I have to say that my minds boggles at the idea of needing subs to reinforce the
kick drum when playing to an audience of 80-100 !

Graham
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:31:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42926615.A91406@hotmail.com...
> I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own
> level
> in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
> fast. ;-)

Try pitch shifting it very slightly. Guitarist will think he's out of tune
and tune down a bit till the end of the song >:-)

Phildo
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:34:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ron(UK)" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:D 6uuvn$2g6$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> The usual scenario is the guitarist cranks his amp up to 11, then stands
> there pointing at his wedges, and making the up gesture, he cant hear
> himself in his wedges cos he`s so damn loud on stage. They don`t like it
> when you tell em to turn the amp down before you`ll turn the foldback up..
> "it`s my sound man.. I need it on 11 to get my sound" or alternatively..
> " it`s only on 3 mate mate honest!" yeah right..
>
Get the guitarist to point his speaker at his ears, the ones on his head not
the back of his knees. What is even better is if you can get him to put it
on stage in front of him angled up like a monitor wedge.

Phildo
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:35:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Joe Kesselman" <keshlam-nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:u_KdncEB74q4Xg7fRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
>I have once or twice been successful in convincing an electric guitarist to
>put his amp at the front of the stage, pointing _away_ from the audience.
>Then if he blasts anyone it's mostly himself and his band members rather
>than the audience... and the band members can deal with him as they see
>fit. <grin/>

Works very well but remember a LOT of sound comes out the back of the
speaker cab as well as the front.

Phildo
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:38:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4292687E.1B1736B0@hotmail.com...
> You're correct to associate 15" drivers with poor vocal performance. It's
> a
> technical thing ( science - physics and all that ). 12" is much better.
> 10"
> can be better still.

That's one of the things I loved about the larger Thunder Ridge PA systems.
They split the sound 4 or 5 way and the vocals were always clean and
prominent. Each speaker produced the frequencies they were best suited to
and weren't forced to go out of their optimum range.

Phildo
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:40:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Steve White" <steve@sjNOSPAMTAVERYMUCHwhite.plus.com> wrote in message
news:42926b16$0$39083$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>> The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
>> technically do-able though.
>
> Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
> would that type of facility not make it doable?

Only if it has a built in time machine preset. Guitar is further back than
the PA stacks so the sound will come out of there first. There are lots more
issues with room positioning etc but basically it won't work.

Phildo
May 26, 2005 1:43:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
>
>>Phildo wrote:
>>
>>>>Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
>>>>and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
>>>>tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with a
>>>>hint of snare reverb..
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen people,
>>>>but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
>>>
>>>
>>>If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.
>>
>>Yep I'm already thinking of a pair of 18" subs. They should do the job!
>
>
> I have to say that my minds boggles at the idea of needing subs to reinforce the
> kick drum when playing to an audience of 80-100 !

Hmm, maybe you are imagining a really small room with that many people
crammed in, not sure. When I do sound at this place with my JBL SF15's
(cough), I put a fair amount of kick in and it makes a lot of
difference. Remember it is a rock gig, so it doesn't take much for a
couple of guitars to overpower an unmiced kick drum. Granted, by itself
with hardly anybody in the room, its fairly loud, but when the room
starts filling and the guitars and bass start up, it gets lost. The
snare on the other hand, now thats a different matter! I usually just
mic that for reverb.

I'm not very good at guestimating this sort of thing, but for the room
in question, you could perhaps squeeze 200 or more people in there.. I
think.. ;-) I mentioned 80 to 100 people because thats about the
maximum attendance usually.

When I'm next there, I'll measure the room. It is a bit of a funny
shaped room, and it has a very high ceiling, and a raised stage. There
is no carpet or curtains anywhere so it can be a bit of an acoustic
nightmare too.

Mark.
--
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 2:13:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mark" <marks@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
news:QaWdnZLdW8HAfgnfRVnytw@pipex.net...
> Hmm, maybe you are imagining a really small room with that many people
> crammed in, not sure. When I do sound at this place with my JBL SF15's
> (cough), I put a fair amount of kick in and it makes a lot of
> difference.

Seconded. In fact the toms suffer the same problem. In the midst of the
sound of the band and from within the audience most drums kits sound
completely whimpy if not reinforced. I'm not saying that they should always
be mic'd to the hilt but you don't get the same impact if they're not
reinforced ... even in small venues.

And for the record - I'm saying that as a drummer and punter ... not a pro
sound engineer!

Cheers,
Steve W
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 3:50:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

> Mark wrote:
>
>
>>Phildo wrote:
>>
>>>>Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
>>>>and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
>>>>tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with a
>>>>hint of snare reverb..
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen people,
>>>>but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
>>>
>>>
>>>If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.
>>
>>Yep I'm already thinking of a pair of 18" subs. They should do the job!
>
>
> I have to say that my minds boggles at the idea of needing subs to reinforce the
> kick drum when playing to an audience of 80-100 !
>
> Graham
>

You mightn't need to reinforce its peak level beyond its acoustic level,
but if you want to get a complementary voicing of a damped kick to the
snare and bass, amplification can still help
May 26, 2005 6:01:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve White wrote:
> Seconded. In fact the toms suffer the same problem. In the midst of the
> sound of the band and from within the audience most drums kits sound
> completely whimpy if not reinforced. I'm not saying that they should always
> be mic'd to the hilt but you don't get the same impact if they're not
> reinforced ... even in small venues.
>
> And for the record - I'm saying that as a drummer and punter ... not a pro
> sound engineer!

I'm a drummer too and completely agree. Hmm, your name looks somewhat
familiar ;-)

Mark.
--
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:29:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mark" <marks@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
news:6fqdnaodousEVQjfRVnyiw@pipex.net...
> I'm a drummer too and completely agree. Hmm, your name looks somewhat
> familiar ;-)

There's 2 of us (at least.) I'm larger and less famous than the one you're
likely to be thinking about.

Cheers,
Steve W
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 8:49:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message news:3fm68rF8gpdhU9@individual.net...

> Get the guitarist to point his speaker at his ears, the ones on his head not
> the back of his knees. What is even better is if you can get him to put it
> on stage in front of him angled up like a monitor wedge.
>
> Phildo

My favorite ploy.... albeit that most people on stage are suddenly faced
with the deafening volume that wasn't as readily audible in the backs of
the knees. Some of the best shows I've run in small to medium rooms
are those where the guitarists place their cabinets down front along with
the monitor wedges. It eliminates a lot of the need for instruments to be
placed in some of the wedges and usually encourages less volume from
the amplifier to make the player happy.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 8:55:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"George Gleason" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...

> I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
> often just a kick and a OH though
> George

I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
what proximity to the kit. I like to get all of the hard drums (snare
sometimes only for effect). Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
Tom and kick mics will usually make a kit plenty big enough in a small
room, where it actually can compete with guitars and blend with bass.
Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
number one priority.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 9:04:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
> "George Gleason" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...
>
>
>>I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
>>often just a kick and a OH though
>>George
>
>
> I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
> perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
> what proximity to the kit. I like to get all of the hard drums (snare
> sometimes only for effect). Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
> Tom and kick mics will usually make a kit plenty big enough in a small
> room, where it actually can compete with guitars and blend with bass.
> Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
> number one priority.
>

In 'intimate situations' like to do the old jazz trick of miking the
kik, one mike covering just between the snare and the hat, and a low
overhead over the toms, Using a decent condensor mike for the snare /
hat you can get well back from the head of the snare and still get a
nice sound. No good for power drummers of course, but great for those
who play with a bit of style and taste.

Ron

--
Lune Valley Audio
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 9:19:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phildo wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42926615.A91406@hotmail.com...
> > I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own
> > level
> > in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
> > fast. ;-)
>
> Try pitch shifting it very slightly. Guitarist will think he's out of tune
> and tune down a bit till the end of the song >:-)

You're *BAD* ! LOL.

Graham
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 9:26:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phildo wrote:

> "Ron(UK)" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
> news:D 6uuvn$2g6$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > The usual scenario is the guitarist cranks his amp up to 11, then stands
> > there pointing at his wedges, and making the up gesture, he cant hear
> > himself in his wedges cos he`s so damn loud on stage. They don`t like it
> > when you tell em to turn the amp down before you`ll turn the foldback up..
> > "it`s my sound man.. I need it on 11 to get my sound" or alternatively..
> > " it`s only on 3 mate mate honest!" yeah right..
>
> Get the guitarist to point his speaker at his ears, the ones on his head not
> the back of his knees. What is even better is if you can get him to put it
> on stage in front of him angled up like a monitor wedge.

Talking of which.....

When I was 16 or thereabouts - the London Studio 'Star Sound' closed down and
there was an auction of their kit.

One item was a Vox AC30 that had been used by both the Stones and the Beatles on
sessions.

My guitarist friend went for it and we got it ! Silly price too IIRC. Had to
haul it back through the London Underground ( metro to US ppl I think ) too !

It was unusual in having the chrome swivel stand with castors. I sometimes
wonder whatever happened to it. It was in *perfect* condition when he bought it.



Graham
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 9:30:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phildo wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4292687E.1B1736B0@hotmail.com...
> > You're correct to associate 15" drivers with poor vocal performance. It's
> > a technical thing ( science - physics and all that ). 12" is much better.
> > 10" can be better still.
>
> That's one of the things I loved about the larger Thunder Ridge PA systems.
> They split the sound 4 or 5 way and the vocals were always clean and
> prominent. Each speaker produced the frequencies they were best suited to
> and weren't forced to go out of their optimum range.

Few ppl realise that basic physics determines that any cone speaker is only
optimal over about 3 octaves at best.


Graham
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 9:38:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phildo wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4292687E.1B1736B0@hotmail.com...
> > You're correct to associate 15" drivers with poor vocal performance. It's
> > a technical thing ( science - physics and all that ). 12" is much better.
> > 10" can be better still.
>
> That's one of the things I loved about the larger Thunder Ridge PA systems.
> They split the sound 4 or 5 way and the vocals were always clean and
> prominent. Each speaker produced the frequencies they were best suited to
> and weren't forced to go out of their optimum range.

I like to run mids ~ 300 - 3kHz. Avoids any crossover artefacts in the most
critical vocal area.

10" drivers are sweet for this.

Graham
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 11:35:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote:

> "George Gleason" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...
>
> > I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
> > often just a kick and a OH though
> > George
>
> I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
> perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
> what proximity to the kit.

I've rarely used an OH. Seems just to pick up spill.


> I like to get all of the hard drums (snare sometimes only for effect).

Ooooh ! I just loved the snare sound I used to get ! When you can get that
'crack' just right it's awesome.

> Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
> Tom and kick mics will usually make a kit plenty big enough in a small
> room, where it actually can compete with guitars and blend with bass.
> Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
> number one priority.

Hmmmm.... guitarists ! Actually they don't seem to be so bad these days.


Graham
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 11:37:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

> Using a decent condensor mike for the snare.........

I tried a U87 once ! Phenomenal sound !

Just don't think about where that stick might go !

Graham
!