If the sun were to explode

NO!! There are so many cowards on this planet they would make you get out and push them to saftey.

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They would make you get outside of our planet earths atmosphere and lean your shoulder up against old mother earth and push her to the next solar gas station and place her in a new safe orbit around the new sun.

Of course we would all be dead because you cant follow simple instructions and I would be to busy killing all the A Holes I wanted to beat the [-peep-] out of for years but only feared jail.

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What an interesting question. It depends on the kind of explosion. The gravitational effect we feel is caused by the mass of the sun. When the sun explodes, it depends how much of the mass is converted into energy. Also, it depends on what happens with the remaining mass.

Assuming the sun's core explodes for some reason, then a certain percentage of mass is converted into energy, a fraction of that is transferred into motional energy of the remaining mass which is hurled into space, the remaining energy is radiated into space, with the speed of light. Assuming that the fraction of mass converted into energy is not too big, this will mean that the motional energy will not result in significant portions of mass attaining speeds anywhere remotely near the speed of light, and thus you will not be able to measure the effect for some time (most of the mass is still there exerting its gravitational pull, only the mass converted into energy has gone). This is a more or less newtonian argument.

The most interesting part of course is, and I assume the original motive for asking, does gravitational interaction travel faster or slower than with the speed of light? See <A HREF="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/grav_speed.html" target="_new">this link</A> for an interesting read on the subject. Conclusion is that it is very likely that the speed of gravitational interaction is identical to the speed of light, but it has not been measured yet as such.

If this is correct then you will never be able to feel gravitational changes before other radiation related to the explosion reaches the earth.


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Shoo. Go fish.


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As much as i have read about gravity and the like....i would say you would feel the effects of gravity before you could see it.
Einstein had a problem with gravity because it seems to have an instant effect and if something is instant across a huge distance that means it travels faster then the speed of light. There are explinations to all of this.
but its theoretical. Gravity is basically an unknown. We know certin constants but we dont know 'what' it is.

I would hazard a guess and say that we would feel gravitational turbulence before the sun's energy swallowed us up and made the earth explode.
But it all depends on so much unknown that its hard to say for sure.

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<font color=blue> I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front. </font color=blue>

We would see the explosion first. The difference in the Earth's orbit would be so insignificant a force (to us) when compared to the Earth's Gravitational pull on us.

Satellites and sensitive equipment might detect the change first, but we would almost certainly not <i>feel</i> it first.

Just my opinion.

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I think the scientific version would have the sun expanding quite a lot at the end of its life, for about 1000 years or something, then shrinking into a red dwarf.

I think I read that somewhere.

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That's a good question. I'm trying to remember something and I might need the pig to refresh my memory. If you think of the sun as a point source with a certain amount of mass it would give us the same effect as our huge sun with the same mass. That means that when the sun explodes and the mass is ejected towards us the mass of the sun is still within our orbit and wouldn't change anything for us. At least nothing dramatic since I would assume the explosion would be uniform.

8.5 minutes later the light from the explosion would reach us, blind us, burn us up, and then destroy the earth. Gravity would be the least of our worries.

What I'm wrestling with is the fact that gravity obeys the inverse square law so if all the mass of the sun was in a shell at the orbit of venus, would that affect us differently than all the mass in the form of our current sun? Is the distance between the two objects, when you calulate the force of gravity from the two objects' center?

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

So you say gravity isn't made up of particles OR energy.
Considering those are about the only two options....how would you explain what gravity is then?

Granted i dont know as much as DH about this, but i thought that gravity had a particle of 0mass called a graviton. Also without it haveing a particle or energy would cause a problem.
You say 'it ripples'....without it being particle or energy what exactly is rippling.

Also, if you are talking about M-Theory, you are talking about 11 dimentions.

I am drawing a blank on this, but i am like 80% sure that i read something about einstien having problems with the seemingly instant effects of gravity.


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<font color=blue> I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front. </font color=blue>

I think someone mentioned that gravity is instantaneous across the universe.

The force of gravity, as well as the electric force, does extend infinitely but the force reduces according to the inverse square law.

I'm so rusty with this stuff. I'm hoping to forget it all soon so that I don't have to bother with these discussions anymore.

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

Yeah, i know that the gravitron is bascially made up. Its made up because gravity existing without a particle is unnerveing to a lot of people. So they invented something they hope to discover later....its not uncommon. We name elements that haven't been discovered natrually. We named the electron before it was discovered as well.

Gravity is a strange one, for something we all encounter evry second of everyday and something that we deal with all the time....we know very little about it and how it works. And thats just on macro scales......at QM scales we have even less of an idea of whats going on.

I know gravitons may not exist but what i said was this....without gravity being particle or energy how can it flow, or ripple, or travel?
I will admit nobody knows what it is....but to say its neither of those two, how does it work then. because he is refering to some theory i hve never heard about it.

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<font color=blue> I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front. </font color=blue>

It's a fundamental force.

I'm not a particle physicist though so I can't give you much more beyond that.

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

What do you do?

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<font color=blue> I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front. </font color=blue>

Gravity doesn't have to be mass or energy. It is the way we explain the interaction between particles, much like the electric force.

If you have an infinite plane and you introduce one mass to it you will find that nothing happens. It will just sit there. However if you add another mass you will get a reaction. Both masses will influence each other. The smaller mass will find itself in orbit around the larger mass. If you add a 3rd mass things get very complicated. It's called the 3 body problem and it has only been solved for specific cases with specific conditions.

What Einstein did that was so interesting was he came up with a better way to describe gravity rather than a line of sight force between two particles. He described it as the bending of space time, with each particle creating it's own well in the fabric of space. A larger mass will create a larger well and will thus cause the smaller mass to orbit.

Gravity EXPLAINS how things work. It might be possible one day to explain how gravity works, possibly through some kind of subatomic particle, but right now we can't. At least I haven't studied it.

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

The thing about that image is that it is a 2D representation of 3D object. So that picture is a "sliver" of the real thing.

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

I know what gravity is.
but you explained it by saying it is not a particle and not energy.
Thats the only beef i had. Because i am unaware of any theory that would describe gravity as being without particles or energy.
Granted it could turn out some day to be like that because of the little that is known about it. but who knows? i am just curious if you are refering to a theory i dont know.

Like DH explained it, gravity is an explination of the motions we see....but we dont know HOW gravity does what it does.

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<font color=blue> I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front. </font color=blue>

What theory describe it as being a particle or energy?

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

Science is a way of describing the way the world and universe works. It's like religion except that is is constantly changing when a better explaination surfaces.

Gravity is the explaination of how mass interacts. The electric force and magnetic force is the explaination of how charged particles interact.

It is possible that these forces are carried by a massless quantum, but we don't know yet. That is theoretical particle physics and I'm not qualified to really say much about it.

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

The best theory we have for gravity is general relativity, which has gravity being a bending of space-time and not having a particle associated with it.

The standard model explains the other 3 fundamental forces quite well. It contains quantum electrodynamics which explains the EM force as being mediated by photons; it also explains the weak force as being mediated by the W and Z bosons and unites it with the EM force; it also explains the strong force as being mediated by gluons, but the mathematics of this part of the theory are very very difficult. When you attempt to quantize gravity in the same methods you use for the above forces, things do not work out at all.

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Yes thats what i was talking about, i am aware its not proven but it would just make sense.

I am just a little baby, i dont know such complicated things as forces beyond the generalities of what they are and what they are associated with.

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<font color=blue> I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front. </font color=blue>

Have you taken particle physics? I can talk about photons but that's really about it.

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

Yeah I have. It was a fun but very difficult class.

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That's true except it does not explain metaphysical phenomenon.

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Yes, please give me an example of a metaphysical phenominom that has been verified or reproduced.

</font color=red><i><font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS </font color=blue><font color=red>AMERICA

Corny, but love.

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