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choir + band

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Anonymous
May 31, 2005 9:36:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've been asked to record a choir accompanied by a band. Two amplified
guitars, amplified bass and drums. No other PA. The choir is not
amplified. Possibly a female solo singer on some song. Piano (upright)
on some songs.

This will be in a smallish church(*). This is not a concert. For
documentation. For the band and the choir. Not too serious, but I want
it to come out OK anyway.

I can record from two to 8-12 tracks depending on how many microphones I
can borrow. AKG C480, Pearl DC96, AKG451 (the older cardioids), AKG535
(seems there once was a succesful AKG sales person operating in the
churches in this area...:-).

Any suggestions?

regards
Lars

(*) ...with a peculiar shape - ship turned upside down. Nacksta kyrka if
anyone is interested in architecture http://www.5hus.nu/val_av_hus.htm

--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com

More about : choir band

Anonymous
May 31, 2005 9:36:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Lars Farm" wrote ...
> I've been asked to record a choir accompanied by a band.

IME, the biggest challenge is maintaining any sort of separation
between the choir and the band. We have a difficult time when
it is a live performance and singers and band are placed for
appearance/convienence. (without regard for separation/isolation
issues.)

But if this is an "informal recording session", I'd be tempted to put
the band *facing* the choir so that they can hear each other, but
so that you can mic them ~separately (using directional mics).

With 8-12 tracks I'd be tempted to get "iso" feeds from each of
the instruments so that you can deal with mixing later. You will
have you hands full just getting the "tracking" right on location.
June 1, 2005 1:29:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hey Lars

That seems like some project, but also a challenge.

As far as I see it the problem is not which type of mic you should use but
more a matter of how to control the reverberation in the church. If the mic
are to sensitive they only record that boomming sound reflecting from the
walls and nothing if they are not sensitive.

How do they rehearse? Maybe the it is a idea to record them like they
rehearse, meaning that no matter what you do you newer get rid og the
reverbaration. Therefore walk around the room and try to take advantage the
room placing the mic's where it sounds the best. As a supplement you can
place a few ekstra mic's at the drums or the piano to get some punch in the
recording. Placing 12 mic's around the church will mud it all up for you and
therefore impossible to control, and if the choir can sing powerfull enough
to drown out the band thats perfect - normaly its the other way around!

Hope it helps and let us know about the result

//Clemme



"Lars Farm" <see.bottom.of.page@farm.se> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1gxfwpl.1ldmzurojui46N%see.bottom.of.page@farm.se...
> I've been asked to record a choir accompanied by a band. Two amplified
> guitars, amplified bass and drums. No other PA. The choir is not
> amplified. Possibly a female solo singer on some song. Piano (upright)
> on some songs.
>
> This will be in a smallish church(*). This is not a concert. For
> documentation. For the band and the choir. Not too serious, but I want
> it to come out OK anyway.
>
> I can record from two to 8-12 tracks depending on how many microphones I
> can borrow. AKG C480, Pearl DC96, AKG451 (the older cardioids), AKG535
> (seems there once was a succesful AKG sales person operating in the
> churches in this area...:-).
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> regards
> Lars
>
> (*) ...with a peculiar shape - ship turned upside down. Nacksta kyrka if
> anyone is interested in architecture http://www.5hus.nu/val_av_hus.htm
>
> --
> lars farm // http://www.farm.se
> lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
> aim: larsfarm@mac.com
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Anonymous
June 1, 2005 1:29:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Clemme <clemen@clemen.dk> wrote:

> That seems like some project, but also a challenge.

:-)

Without the band I'd feel reasonably comfortable. I imagine that the
band presents several challenges.

- The first the band it self. I don't really have a good idea how to mic
a band. I fear that treating them as a string quartett isn't exactly
what they had in mind... Still, I suppose I could start as with anything
else. Two mics in front of them. Then and add as you suggest and perhaps
at the amps to get a dry band sound, but I really don't know...

- The second is that the band might take over the choir and be
everywhere in various stages of reverberation (ok as long as it isn't
too much or too far)... so micing the choir isn't necessarily the same
as I'm used to either...

- The third is the drums. These things are often ((far) too) loud and
they'll be everywhere...

> a matter of how to control the reverberation in the church.

!

Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:29:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 5/31/05 5:16 PM, in article
1gxg7gf.y8cn3dnwv9waN%see.bottom.of.page@farm.se, "Lars Farm"
<see.bottom.of.page@farm.se> wrote:

> Clemme <clemen@clemen.dk> wrote:
>
>> That seems like some project, but also a challenge.
>
> :-)
>
> Without the band I'd feel reasonably comfortable. I imagine that the
> band presents several challenges.
>
> - The first the band it self. I don't really have a good idea how to mic
> a band. I fear that treating them as a string quartett isn't exactly
> what they had in mind... Still, I suppose I could start as with anything
> else. Two mics in front of them. Then and add as you suggest and perhaps
> at the amps to get a dry band sound, but I really don't know...
>
> - The second is that the band might take over the choir and be
> everywhere in various stages of reverberation (ok as long as it isn't
> too much or too far)... so micing the choir isn't necessarily the same
> as I'm used to either...
>
> - The third is the drums. These things are often ((far) too) loud and
> they'll be everywhere...

And you'll surround them with SOMETHING to tame them... If nothing else work
with the drummer and musical director to damp them down (there are AMAZING
things now that allow great drum-tonality tweaking).
Indeed Everything WILL be Everywhere and that¹s why going at this fighting
to achieve a real balance at the conductor's podium is the way to go.
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:32:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Like any large ensemble in a big room, your main task here is NOT about mics
but about PLACEMENT OF PERFORMERS.
The 451's are a dandy start as a stereo pair

Pictured as seen from the conductor's position, I'd start with the choir
(how many?) in a fairly close arc, then the band instruments at 'some
appropriate distance' behind them that you'll all decide after listening.
This ENTIRE grouping then will have a 'place' inside the room that works
best, it may take some considerable trial-and-error shuffling and resets and
make folks annoyed (You should schedule a day of recording-finagling and
loose rehearsal, then another day to do the recording) but this indeed is
how it gets done.
You and the musical director/conductor will listen on headphones or speakers
in another room to the results and adjust positions accordingly.
In the end you'll be pretty happy and a lot more experieinced!



On 5/31/05 1:36 PM, in article
1gxfwpl.1ldmzurojui46N%see.bottom.of.page@farm.se, "Lars Farm"
<see.bottom.of.page@farm.se> wrote:

> I've been asked to record a choir accompanied by a band. Two amplified
> guitars, amplified bass and drums. No other PA. The choir is not
> amplified. Possibly a female solo singer on some song. Piano (upright)
> on some songs.
>
> This will be in a smallish church(*). This is not a concert. For
> documentation. For the band and the choir. Not too serious, but I want
> it to come out OK anyway.
>
> I can record from two to 8-12 tracks depending on how many microphones I
> can borrow. AKG C480, Pearl DC96, AKG451 (the older cardioids), AKG535
> (seems there once was a succesful AKG sales person operating in the
> churches in this area...:-).
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> regards
> Lars
>
> (*) ...with a peculiar shape - ship turned upside down. Nacksta kyrka if
> anyone is interested in architecture http://www.5hus.nu/val_av_hus.htm
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 9:44:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley <richard.n.crowley@intel.com> wrote:

> I'd be tempted to get "iso" feeds from each of the instruments

Please elaborate a little bit more. How? What do I need?

Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 10:13:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Lars Farm" wrote ...
> Richard Crowley wrote:
>
>> I'd be tempted to get "iso" feeds from each of the instruments
>
> Please elaborate a little bit more. How? What do I need?

Close-mic the e-guitar/bass amps OR use direct-boxes.

My suggestion for having the band FACE the choir failed to
include the detail of putting some space between them (for
recording isolation). Typically I put the band behind the
conductor. Of course this is not practical for public performance,
but makes it much easier to record.
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 1:50:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:

> in the end you'll be pretty happy and a lot more experieinced!

Long post, sorry.

Thanks to Clemme, SSJVCmag and Richard (and others in other threads) for
your suggestions. I took some advise from each of you:-)

pictures: http://www.farm.se/bild/20050612_mix/
music: http://www.farm.se/bild/20050612_mix/musik.html

I started with SSJVCmags position. That was pretty much what I had
imagined anyway. The main pair on the choir is the foundation. I didn't
know the choir from before and it turned out they there were a bit
unbalanced - few men and untroubled by that..:-) Lift the mics. Better,
not good. Left the men too, no risers, but chairs... Better, not good.
Put the men in front and the women behind on the chairs. Better.

I had enough tracks so everything got its own track as per Richards
suggestion.

Then the piano. It wasn't an upright as I had been told. It was one of
those Yamaha digital pianos that looks as if they wanted to be a grand
piano. The band took it through one of their amps and that didn't sound
good at all so at first I used the headphone out, then I found an aux
out underneath and used that. The piano could make good noises on its
own, but they didn't want that. Although the piano was far left, the amp
was a little less left, behind the choir.

Then the guitar. Mic on amp directly behind choir. I'm ambivalent if I
need it or not. The player was sort of the reason for the event. He just
left school and would leave town (and the choir) for college. Leave the
country even. He starts at Berklee in the US coming autumn. It's
interesting to listen to hes track alone.

Then drums, directly behind choir. I asked the drummer... "Put one here"
and that was near his head looking down on the set. OK, but lots of
everything in that mic.

The bassplayer asked for his so he got one too, but there seems to be
enough of bass without it...:-)

I put som pictures and samples up if anyone's interested. There are
mps's and I know you don't like that so there are a couple of WAV-files
too (for some time - I'll need the space later)

regards
Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 3:39:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:

> Remind me... This is a one-pass performace-recording?
> No doubletracked voice parts?

One pass, no double tracking.

> I could nit-pick but why bother?

Please do. That's what'l take me forward.

> I'm listening to the
> performance and the music, not your recording technique... You;re invisible!

Thanks! :-)

> Man, you;re working with REALLy decent people here aren;t you... And that
> goes double for whoever's rehearsing/conducting.

I'll let them know! I like the way the guitar player (Niklas) plays. He
plays everything. I heard him today at a jazz festival in town. 19 years
old and a veteran in everything jazz around here. Today he played with
two bands. Sundsvall Big Band (them letting a 19 year old in is
exceptional and he played with them last year too...) and a smaller
group. Both great. I also liked the way the drummer played. I didn't
catch his sound the way I'd like here though... The choir surprised me
too. For this they were great. The women had a nice unified sound and
the choir enjoyed what they did.

> How happy is everybody with the results?

They're all quite happy. The whole thing was quite relaxed and the
results surprised the choir and me.

regards
Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 3:45:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:

> Why the big volume difference? Hard to compare BUT...

forgot to answer... That's because the "choir" version is just the pair
of AKG C480/61. No mixing at all. The "all" version adds the
piano-direct, the guitar cabinett mic, the drum mic and therfor I need
to pull the master volume down to avoid clipping. That's all. I didn't
normalize. I will eventually...

--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 4:37:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 6/18/05 7:39 PM, in article
1gydqe0.1cvmb021capg1sN%see.bottom.of.page@farm.se, "Lars Farm"
<see.bottom.of.page@farm.se> wrote:

> SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:
>
>> Remind me... This is a one-pass performace-recording?
>> No doubletracked voice parts?
>
> One pass, no double tracking.
>
>> I could nit-pick but why bother?
>
> Please do. That's what'l take me forward.

I'm just listening quickly on the built-in little speakers on the old Mac
here so it's hardly critical, but listening and peering THROUGH that smokey
glass, it WORKS on a first-impression level.

The WAV files are straight 44/16 unconverted sound files?
Ill grab those and see what they do in the living room...
THEN I'll feel qualified to actually critique the stuff. That I'm just
enjoying LISTENING to the material first-time thru is a real treat.

Just a passing reference note, one of my favorite live recordings (though
one never knows what might have been 'fixed' later) of
orchestra/choir/electric band that still feels like a live concert hall
recording is PROCUL HARUM's
Live With The Edmonton Symphony Orchestra record.

On 6/18/05 7:45 PM, in article
1gydrb8.1yqlmok5351wsN%see.bottom.of.page@farm.se, "Lars Farm"
<see.bottom.of.page@farm.se> wrote:

> SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:
>
>> Why the big volume difference? Hard to compare BUT...
>
> That's because the "choir" version is just the pair
> of AKG C480/61. No mixing at all. The "all" version adds the
> piano-direct, the guitar cabinett mic, the drum mic and therfor I need
> to pull the master volume down to avoid clipping. That's all.

Are you adding reverb or is that really the sound of the hall?!? If the
choir-only is any indication, that hall sounds a lot bigger and deeper than
it look in the pix... That delay is remarkable, and it WORKS.

> I didn't normalize. I will eventually...

Kinda figured.

>
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 12:42:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:

> Are you adding reverb or is that really the sound of the hall?!? If the
> choir-only is any indication, that hall sounds a lot bigger and deeper than
> it look in the pix...

The "choir-only" is two mics straight. No reverb. No processing. That's
the room. Reverberant room with a small echo between it's only two - and
very sharp - corners...

It's an oddly shaped church from the sixties. Somewhat known for its
architecture. It's shaped like a ship turned upside down. Not large.
About 25m (?) "bow-to-stern" and narrow. The only two corners in the
room. The walls are bent. Made of bricks and concrete.

See: http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/sundsvall/NA/na_kyrkan.shtm...

L


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com
!